Wotte's job offer, Surman bid, Rasiak to go cheaply

[Legod Third Coming]

Nineteen Canteen,

 

I did not say that Pearson should be triumphed. I merely pointed out that Wotte should be sacked. If he had kept us up (ie. we were starting next season with 0 points) he should have been kept on.

 

We went down like a tart's knickers. No fight, no passion, no nothing. Just slid down the pan.

 

So FIRE HIM.

 

He is rubbish. 22% win ratio for a man who has been here a whole season is pathetic.

 

We could have won as many games with NO manager.

 

Now, tell me, that the feck does that have to do with Pearson?

 

Answer: NOTHING.

[Matthew Le God]

Nineteen Canteen,

 

I did not say that Pearson should be triumphed. I merely pointed out that Wotte should be sacked. If he had kept us up (ie. we were starting next season with 0 points) he should have been kept on.

 

We went down like a tart's knickers. No fight, no passion, no nothing. Just slid down the pan.

 

So FIRE HIM.

 

He is rubbish. 22% win ratio for a man who has been here a whole season is pathetic.

 

We could have won as many games with NO manager.

 

Now, tell me, that the feck does that have to do with Pearson?

 

Answer: NOTHING.

 

He also had a squad full of untried players and no money to spend. I think most managers would have struggled to keep us up with the resources Wotte had at his disposal.

[BigShadow]

 

We could have won as many games with NO manager.

 

 

Now theres an opportunity Mr Lowe missed. For someone seeking revolutionary approaches to management - The No manager option would have saved tons of cash.

 

Players pick the team and formation - would have been awesome.

[Legod Third Coming]

He also had a squad full of untried players and no money to spend. I think most managers would have struggled to keep us up with the resources Wotte had at his disposal.

 

Saganowski

Euell

Surman

Saejis

Perry

Davis

Skacel

McGoldrick

 

Not exactly untried?

 

The guy was here a whole season and oversaw one of the weakest, most spineless, most gutless and pathetic displays by a football team ever.

 

Just because the ruddy faced clown has gone we need not perpetuate the myth that untried, failed, foriegn coaches are better than those with proven track records in the English game from whichever corner of the globe they originate.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Nineteen Canteen,

 

I did not say that Pearson should be triumphed. I merely pointed out that Wotte should be sacked. If he had kept us up (ie. we were starting next season with 0 points) he should have been kept on.

 

We went down like a tart's knickers. No fight, no passion, no nothing. Just slid down the pan.

 

So FIRE HIM.

 

He is rubbish. 22% win ratio for a man who has been here a whole season is pathetic.

 

We could have won as many games with NO manager.

 

Now, tell me, that the feck does that have to do with Pearson?

 

Answer: NOTHING.

 

Both managers with low win ratios so using your logic Wotte should be sacked and we should have no complaints over the treatment of Pearson. Wonder how Pearson would have coped with administration at a key time during his tenure and all the anti-board feeling spilling out onto the pitch. I think Wotte conducted himself very professionally in the circumstances and it was interesting drawing a parrallel between the two.

 

Now, tell me, what reason is there for not making this valid comparison?

 

Answer: NOTHING - Unless you're a Pearson luvvie and can't justify supporting him whilst shouting for Wotte's sacking.

[Legod Third Coming]

Both managers with low win ratios so using your logic Wotte should be sacked and we should have no complaints over the treatment of Pearson. Wonder how Pearson would have coped with administration at a key time during his tenure and all the anti-board feeling spilling out onto the pitch. I think Wotte conducted himself very professionally in the circumstances and it was interesting drawing a parrallel between the two.

 

Now, tell me, what reason is there for not making this valid comparison?

 

Answer: NOTHING - Unless you're a Pearson luvvie and can't justify supporting him whilst shouting for Wotte's sacking.

 

I made no mention of Person.

 

Although there is one vital difference. Pearson kept us up, which is all that was asked of him. Wotte failed.

 

The only reason to keep Wotte is if the alternative is yet another even worse Dutch coach with even less experience,

 

But we won't have another owner with that little intellect will we?

[SW11_Saint]

Both managers with low win ratios so using your logic Wotte should be sacked and we should have no complaints over the treatment of Pearson. Wonder how Pearson would have coped with administration at a key time during his tenure and all the anti-board feeling spilling out onto the pitch. I think Wotte conducted himself very professionally in the circumstances and it was interesting drawing a parrallel between the two.

 

Now, tell me, what reason is there for not making this valid comparison?

 

Answer: NOTHING - Unless you're a Pearson luvvie and can't justify supporting him whilst shouting for Wotte's sacking.

What is it with all this "win ratio" bow-locks?? The only thing that matters in a relegation dog-fight is your record vs. those of your immediate rivals. On this basis, Pearson was a success, as he kept us up. Wotte was a failure, as he took us down. End of.

[captainchris]

Wotte has to go. He can't motivate the players, and his tactics are dreadful

 

Here here.................................old bean

[Arizona]

To me the measure of how good managers are is how well they do with their resources and how much of an impact they have relative to the last guy.

 

When Pearson took over from Dudd and Gormless, the team immediately became hard to beat. After the shambles against Plymouth we drew 4 and won 1 of our next 5 games, including that crucial win against Leicester. This represented a possitive change for me, which is why I think Pearson was an excellent manager.

 

When WGB, D&G, Portaloo and WTF took over from their respective predecessors, they had little or no possitive impact on the team, which is why, IMO they were all very average to poor managers. Wotte, aside from those 3 brilliant wins on the trot, gave little improvement over JP, who himself wasn't good enough. Ultimately they got us relegated and I don't think they got the best out of admittedly limited resources. This is why he should leave IMO.

[Master Bates]

Today's Echo has Surman to Sheffield United.

[thorpie the sinner]

Today's Echo has Surman to Sheffield United.

 

what going or gone?

[Master Bates]

what going or gone?

 

Neither, just saying Sheffield United are very very keen and have made an approach.

[teamsaint]

WEll since so many clubs want Surman , two things follow.

 

1. We should get a BIG fee after a bidding war.

 

2. Lots of CCC managers agree with those Saints fans who think he is a good player !!!

[trousers]

Now, tell me, what reason is there for not making this valid comparison?

 

 

 

HTH

[The9]

my fear is that we will have the same problems in the League below.

 

Holmes is still going to be slow and ****e, Wotton is going to be slower and uglier than before, Perry will still be too slow and too short, we don't have a big number 9, we dont have pace out wide, up front or at the back. Also we have no squad depth, and any quality at the club is about to leave so we are going to be worse than we were last season and that was bad, real bad.

 

Add to this all free transfers are going to have been snapped up, we know **** all about the quality and availability of players from the lower leagues, our scouting system is appauling...

 

Interesting, as Holmes was our best player last season for the brief time he was fit and losing him had a massive impact on our results in September/October. He's not slow either, and gets plenty of crosses in. Even assuming we shed all the out of contract players I can see Gillett ahead of Wotton and even so his kind of play-breaking will be useful at this level, as long as he sticks to 5 yard passes when he gets it.

 

I'm not sure why anyone thinks we need a big donkey number 9 when Euell (should he accept a new deal) was perfectly capable of doing that anyway, and made a big difference when he first started playing there. I'd take a fast finisher over a big donkey any day, as lower league defenders expect and comfortably deal with stuff in the air - but the reason they're in the lower leagues is because they can't cope with skilful players with pace moving the ball past and around them.

 

We're going to be about the same standard but in a worse league, and a few wins will do wonders for the confidence of the kids.

 

Can't really argue about the frees or the lower league scouting though, but I'd suggest we'd have things covered, it's just too obvious not to be doing it.

[Nineteen Canteen]

[quote=trousers;321071

HTH

 

Not really, as I am comparing a football manager (an apple) with another football manager (another apple). A different variety maybe (Braeburn vs Granny Smith) but nonetheless an option from the Apple family. In the world of football or to use your analogy, the world of fruit, an uber fan masquerading as footbal chairman could be classed as an orange. Part of the fruit (football) family but definitely not an apple and therefore cannot be compared.

 

HTH

[JustMike]

wtf does apples and oranges (or any other analogy for that matter) have to do with this thread?

[ottery st mary]

Wotte stays he is fixtures and fittings secretary...He goes to Ajax as no 5 to Jol good luck to him.......So all the Dutch revolution Lemmings can come back on board the real Saints train.....It definitely went pear shape last year.

[Nineteen Canteen]

wtf does apples and oranges (or any other analogy for that matter) have to do with this thread?

 

Good point ask Trousers

[SaintRichmond]

wtf does apples and oranges (or any other analogy for that matter) have to do with this thread?

 

 

If any comparison were to be made .... surely Cheeses would have been a better choice .....?

 

.... At least we know of Two Brands already .... ???

[JustMike]

Wotte stays he is fixtures and fittings secretary...He goes to Ajax as no 5 to Jol good luck to him.......So all the Dutch revolution Lemmings can come back on board the real Saints train.....It definitely went pear shape last year.

 

where did you get that from?

[ottery st mary]

where did you get that from?

 

Academy coach at Ajax.

[Wopper]

Taking his orders from Lowe with all his interference in football matters would have been a handicap for any manager.

[trousers]

Good point ask Trousers

 

Orange = man at football club all season as part of integrated management team looking after all footballing affairs in a seamless structure and is at helm when said football club is relegated

 

Apple = man at football club for 5 minutes before taking charge of first game with no previous insight into club structure and is at helm when said football club stays up

 

[up and away]

To me the measure of how good managers are is how well they do with their resources and how much of an impact they have relative to the last guy.

 

When Pearson took over from Dudd and Gormless, the team immediately became hard to beat. After the shambles against Plymouth we drew 4 and won 1 of our next 5 games, including that crucial win against Leicester. This represented a possitive change for me, which is why I think Pearson was an excellent manager.

 

When WGB, D&G, Portaloo and WTF took over from their respective predecessors, they had little or no positive impact on the team, which is why, IMO they were all very average to poor managers. Wotte, aside from those 3 brilliant wins on the trot, gave little improvement over JP, who himself wasn't good enough. Ultimately they got us relegated and I don't think they got the best out of admittedly limited resources. This is why he should leave IMO.

 

Just no where near a valid comparison! Did you actually go to the game against Leicester? That was more a case of them shooting themselves in the foot then anything we did. Terrible game, great result.

Pearson has shown he is a good manager by what he has done and I would have been more than happy for him to have stayed, but that does not mean he would have fared much different.

 

The biggest change Pearson brought was getting the midfield to compete and improving Wright and Euell. He failed dismally against Burnley with the team showing absolutely no fight or passion, D&G could have done no worse there. The Burnley game was the most important and the one where we could keep our destiny in our own hands and we choked big time, against a team that could hardly have a worst record at St Mary's or an away current form that was the worst in the CCC. We played very well against Sheffield Utd but if they had not lost all their centre halves and the CCC's top scorer the previous weekend, that could have been totally different.

 

Just look at the players we subsequent no longer had access to effectively R Wright, J Wright, Hammill, Safri, Viafara, Saga, John, Skacel, Lucketti, Pearce, Licka, Jesus and I am sure there are many more I have over looked. And before anyone starts saying we could have had full access to some of those players, we could not afford their playing bonuses and the desperate need to get them off the wage bill, hence why we are actually in administration.

 

I like Pearson and thought me came across very well and has gone on and done well this season, but that dramatic last day escape certainly does not elevate him to Messiah status over what could have been completely different. Wish he had stayed and will be interesting this season to see how he gets on with a club that should be getting into the play offs with their resources.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Just no where near a valid comparison! Did you actually go to the game against Leicester? That was more a case of them shooting themselves in the foot then anything we did. Terrible game, great result.

Pearson has shown he is a good manager by what he has done and I would have been more than happy for him to have stayed, but that does not mean he would have fared much different.

 

The biggest change Pearson brought was getting the midfield to compete and improving Wright and Euell. He failed dismally against Burnley with the team showing absolutely no fight or passion, D&G could have done no worse there. The Burnley game was the most important and the one where we could keep our destiny in our own hands and we choked big time, against a team that could hardly have a worst record at St Mary's or an away current form that was the worst in the CCC. We played very well against Sheffield Utd but if they had not lost all their centre halves and the CCC's top scorer the previous weekend, that could have been totally different.

 

Just look at the players we subsequent no longer had access to effectively R Wright, J Wright, Hammill, Safri, Viafara, Saga, John, Skacel, Lucketti, Pearce, Licka, Jesus and I am sure there are many more I have over looked. And before anyone starts saying we could have had full access to some of those players, we could not afford their playing bonuses and the desperate need to get them off the wage bill, hence why we are actually in administration.

 

I like Pearson and thought me came across very well and has gone on and done well this season, but that dramatic last day escape certainly does not elevate him to Messiah status over what could have been completely different. Wish he had stayed and will be interesting this season to see how he gets on with a club that should be getting into the play offs with their resources.

 

Excellent post and you won't read a fairer assessment of Pearson and his time at Saints. I'm assuming that is the reason why those who elevated Pearson way beyond his achievements have not made further comment and Up and Away didn't even mention the worse performance by a Saints team ever with the 9 goal difference reverse at Hull.

 

Hopefully, thanks to Up and Away the Pearson Myth has been put to bed.

[Tamesaint]

Excellent post and you won't read a fairer assessment of Pearson and his time at Saints. I'm assuming that is the reason why those who elevated Pearson way beyond his achievements have not made further comment and Up and Away didn't even mention the worse performance by a Saints team ever with the 9 goal difference reverse at Hull.

 

Hopefully, thanks to Up and Away the Pearson Myth has been put to bed.

 

Yawn Yawn

[Saints Pedro]

Yes and he's fouled up big time at Leicester!

[Nineteen Canteen]

Yes and he's fouled up big time at Leicester!

 

After timing! The question has and always will be would you, this time last year, have recruited Pearson based on his time at Saints? Logically the answer to that has to be no.

 

For the record I predict Leicester will not achieve anything better than Swansea did on their promotion and IMO will struggle as they were a very big fish in a very small pond last season and compare Pearson's achievements with Fergusons at Peterborough and I know which manager I would prefer.

[Legod Third Coming]

Excellent post and you won't read a fairer assessment of Pearson and his time at Saints. I'm assuming that is the reason why those who elevated Pearson way beyond his achievements have not made further comment and Up and Away didn't even mention the worse performance by a Saints team ever with the 9 goal difference reverse at Hull.

 

Hopefully, thanks to Up and Away the Pearson Myth has been put to bed.

 

Pearson kept us up. For that he deserves the thanks and gratitude of every Saints fan. Not difficult is it?

 

He might also have gone on to be as effective and succesful with us over a whole season as he has been at Leicester.

 

What the hell is your problem with a bloke who did his best for us and it happened to be good enough?

[Tamesaint]

After timing! The question has and always will be would you, this time last year, have recruited Pearson based on his time at Saints? Logically the answer to that has to be no.

 

For the record I predict Leicester will not achieve anything better than Swansea did on their promotion and IMO will struggle as they were a very big fish in a very small pond last season and compare Pearson's achievements with Fergusons at Peterborough and I know which manager I would prefer.

 

Pearson was a good manager and your hero was wrong to sack him. Fact. Why are you opening up this debate?? What is the point of this diatribe. Are you hoping to bore everyone to death??

 

Go onto the Charlton fans forum. Or the Leeds forum. They would welcome fans like you there.

[saintjay77]

Just no where near a valid comparison! Did you actually go to the game against Leicester? That was more a case of them shooting themselves in the foot then anything we did. Terrible game, great result.

Pearson has shown he is a good manager by what he has done and I would have been more than happy for him to have stayed, but that does not mean he would have fared much different.

 

The biggest change Pearson brought was getting the midfield to compete and improving Wright and Euell. He failed dismally against Burnley with the team showing absolutely no fight or passion, D&G could have done no worse there. The Burnley game was the most important and the one where we could keep our destiny in our own hands and we choked big time, against a team that could hardly have a worst record at St Mary's or an away current form that was the worst in the CCC. We played very well against Sheffield Utd but if they had not lost all their centre halves and the CCC's top scorer the previous weekend, that could have been totally different.

 

Just look at the players we subsequent no longer had access to effectively R Wright, J Wright, Hammill, Safri, Viafara, Saga, John, Skacel, Lucketti, Pearce, Licka, Jesus and I am sure there are many more I have over looked. And before anyone starts saying we could have had full access to some of those players, we could not afford their playing bonuses and the desperate need to get them off the wage bill, hence why we are actually in administration.

 

I like Pearson and thought me came across very well and has gone on and done well this season, but that dramatic last day escape certainly does not elevate him to Messiah status over what could have been completely different. Wish he had stayed and will be interesting this season to see how he gets on with a club that should be getting into the play offs with their resources.

 

All fair points IMO.

 

I personally think we would have done better this season had we kept Pearson but I dont think he showed anything to suggest that with this seasons resources he would have done anything amazing. Keeping us up again would have been a massive achievment so hindsight shows the gaff that was made.

 

Shiit happens though so we shall move on.

[Nineteen Canteen]

A newreporter in Castleford (a Labout stronghold) today asked a member of the public if they thought having a cabinet member as their MP would atrenghten their majority. The punter replied - stick a red rosette on a donkey and he would get voted in.

 

Wasn't that a bit like Leicester last season? They had such a big advantage stick a donkey in a pair of trackies (make that 2 pairs) and stick him in the technical area and who would have noticed the difference?

 

I don't have a problem with Pearson, except that i don't rate him based on his achievements to date. My main problem is with the fans who rate him so highly based on the simple fact that with just 20mins in hand he put us in a position whereby if other results went in our favour we would be saved. Really great job, massive well done over 14 games. Those same fans will ignore the comments made by Up and Away and myself that outline the facts that maybe Pearson isn't such a great manager but an incredibly lucky one.

[aintforever]

A newreporter in Castleford (a Labout stronghold) today asked a member of the public if they thought having a cabinet member as their MP would atrenghten their majority. The punter replied - stick a red rosette on a donkey and he would get voted in.

 

Wasn't that a bit like Leicester last season? They had such a big advantage stick a donkey in a pair of trackies (make that 2 pairs) and stick him in the technical area and who would have noticed the difference?

 

I don't have a problem with Pearson, except that i don't rate him based on his achievements to date. My main problem is with the fans who rate him so highly based on the simple fact that with just 20mins in hand he put us in a position whereby if other results went in our favour we would be saved. Really great job, massive well done over 14 games. Those same fans will ignore the comments made by Up and Away and myself that outline the facts that maybe Pearson isn't such a great manager but an incredibly lucky one.

 

You obviously know nothing about football if you believe that crap, no team finishes 7 points clear at the top with a bad manager. If money guaranteed success then Newcastle wouldn't have been relegated and Saints would have walked the championship under Burley.

 

Pearson did a good job for us, turning that team around was a tough job for a relative rookie.

[SaintRichmond]

Pearson kept us up. For that he deserves the thanks and gratitude of every Saints fan. Not difficult is it?

 

He might also have gone on to be as effective and succesful with us over a whole season as he has been at Leicester.

 

What the hell is your problem with a bloke who did his best for us and it happened to be good enough?

 

 

 

Quite agree .....

 

Can anyone realistically say that Pearson would have done any WORSE than the wonderful Dutch Duo, Edam & Gouda, with the Total Football concept ?????

[Saint Billy]

A newreporter in Castleford (a Labout stronghold) today asked a member of the public if they thought having a cabinet member as their MP would atrenghten their majority. The punter replied - stick a red rosette on a donkey and he would get voted in.

Wasn't that a bit like Leicester last season? They had such a big advantage stick a donkey in a pair of trackies (make that 2 pairs) and stick him in the technical area and who would have noticed the difference?

 

I don't have a problem with Pearson, except that i don't rate him based on his achievements to date. My main problem is with the fans who rate him so highly based on the simple fact that with just 20mins in hand he put us in a position whereby if other results went in our favour we would be saved. Really great job, massive well done over 14 games. Those same fans will ignore the comments made by Up and Away and myself that outline the facts that maybe Pearson isn't such a great manager but an incredibly lucky one.

 

If thats the case then Man C are going to win everything next season.

 

As you well know, it's not just based on throwing money at a club and they will be successful, it is also based on having a leader and an organiser otherwise the team will be running around like headless chicken.

 

Most will be ignoring your comments NC but because of the supposed facts you state but more to do with the fact that your comments on here are soley based on getting a reaction, boosting your post count and bigging yourself up.

[SaintRobbie]

NP isnt yet a great manager - 19 is right.

 

In 2 seasons of management he has only rescued one team from relegation and promoted another the season after. How can anyone think NP is a good manager based on that? I suppose when he's won the European Cup and Premier League titles 15 or so times he can be regarded as a great manager...

 

still, his starting couple of years in management does seem to be rather better than Sir Alex's thus far!

 

Losing NP - even with the financial restrictions placed upon Lowe last summer - was Lowe's most foolish error. I for one have little doubts that we would not be in League 1 now if NP had been permitted to continue and Lowe had not taken over.

 

Still, at least Lowe will never darken the steps of SMS again and the plc he stood for is well and truly dead. I suspect in 2 years time we'll be saying that was a price worth paying and thanking Barclays Bank for their diligence in removing Lowe for good, sending us to League 1 and wiping out our debts and poisonous plc as a result.

 

NP may have kept us up - but we'd probably still have Lowe around to **** it all up for a few more years of misery. I think in the longer term - painful as it seems now - Lowe's error in not apointing NP was the best thing that happened to this club... as it actually ended up removing Lowe for good!

 

NP thus has 3 honours in football - saving us from relegation once, the promotion of Leicester and removing football and Southampton of its greatest cancer (Lowe) by being sacked by Lowe! oooo the irony 19, the irony!! Well done Nige, top bloke!!

Edited 7 June, 2009 by SaintRobbie

[up and away]

Originally Posted by up and away

Just no where near a valid comparison! Did you actually go to the game against Leicester? That was more a case of them shooting themselves in the foot then anything we did. Terrible game, great result.

Pearson has shown he is a good manager by what he has done and I would have been more than happy for him to have stayed, but that does not mean he would have fared much different.

 

The biggest change Pearson brought was getting the midfield to compete and improving Wright and Euell. He failed dismally against Burnley with the team showing absolutely no fight or passion, D&G could have done no worse there. The Burnley game was the most important and the one where we could keep our destiny in our own hands and we choked big time, against a team that could hardly have a worst record at St Mary's or an away current form that was the worst in the CCC. We played very well against Sheffield Utd but if they had not lost all their centre halves and the CCC's top scorer the previous weekend, that could have been totally different.

 

Just look at the players we subsequent no longer had access to effectively R Wright, J Wright, Hammill, Safri, Viafara, Saga, John, Skacel, Lucketti, Pearce, Licka, Jesus and I am sure there are many more I have over looked. And before anyone starts saying we could have had full access to some of those players, we could not afford their playing bonuses and the desperate need to get them off the wage bill, hence why we are actually in administration.

 

I like Pearson and thought me came across very well and has gone on and done well this season, but that dramatic last day escape certainly does not elevate him to Messiah status over what could have been completely different. Wish he had stayed and will be interesting this season to see how he gets on with a club that should be getting into the play offs with their resources.

All fair points IMO.

 

I personally think we would have done better this season had we kept Pearson but I dont think he showed anything to suggest that with this seasons resources he would have done anything amazing. Keeping us up again would have been a massive achievment so hindsight shows the gaff that was made.

 

Shiit happens though so we shall move on.

 

If you go back to the euphoria post avoiding relegation last season, there were several posters who thought Pearson should be kept on, based upon more what might be than any hard evidence. With all the players we knew that would be not available for selection, relegation was more than likely for Pearson bearing in mind what he had done with a full deck and what he would have remaining to play with. I am pretty sure we all wanted Pearson to stay, but such was the task the probability of relegation was always favourite.

 

That's why I feel it's very difficult to judge whether Wotte is worthy of retaining. It does not matter to me who the new owners pick but it is impossible to look at Wotte's performances and give a decisive analysis with what he had to work with. Take all the players Pearson had available to him and is it possible Wotte would have fared better with those players? That is a more than possible outcome.

 

What I would really like to know is the actual decision making gone through by Lowe and Wilde in not retaining Pearson. I don't believe for one minute that was about sour grapes as Pearson was the exact sort of candidate that Lowe would go for previously. Knowing the financial limitations to come and the forced reliance on youth I would expect the question of the manager having to try and force players out due to the financial pressures, where ordinarily he would be fighting to keep them, would be very high in the pecking order. I remember Basset saying that during the interview he would fully agree with the chairman regarding playing the youth, come the actual job he would ignore that completely.

 

The only way we were going to get out of this mess was via the youth players who had to step up to the mark so we could sell them on to keep the possibility of turning things round after a couple of years. We were never going to solve this issue in one season because of the magnitude of the financial mess we were in. We tried to buy / loan experienced pro's but could not find any better than what we already had because our finances had us in competion with League 1 clubs for players, not CCC clubs. Everything had to be geared to the youth to have any chance and even though Poortvliet did not work out, I can understand the forced decision, with absolutely no where near a guarantee if you went with Pearson.

[ottery st mary]

Does Wotte have his agent posting on here for him....I don't think our opinion counts away or at home.....He is not good enough and was part of the disaster from day one, Please get rid.

[um pahars]

even though Poortvliet did not work out, I can understand the forced decision, with absolutely no where near a guarantee if you went with Pearson.

 

Why was it a forced decision??

 

There was nothing forced about it whatsoever.

 

We had a manager in situ who was willing to stay on and who was quite clear and open to the reality that next year would see a reliance on youth along with being financially tight (a reliance on youth that he had experienced previously with the U-21's and demonstrated last season with Leicester).

 

It was a conscious decision to go with Poortvliet and one taken for footballing reasons, but a decision which was shown to be one of the worst decisions ever made.

 

It was never forced.

[up and away]

Why was it a forced decision??

 

There was nothing forced about it whatsoever.

 

We had a manager in situ who was willing to stay on and who was quite clear and open to the reality that next year would see a reliance on youth along with being financially tight (a reliance on youth that he had experienced previously with the U-21's and demonstrated last season with Leicester).

 

It was a conscious decision to go with Poortvliet and one taken for footballing reasons, but a decision which was shown to be one of the worst decisions ever made.

 

It was never forced.

 

We were forced to go with the younger players because of the financial mess we were in. We were in so much financial mire the only way out was to develop the younger players to sell on and wipe out our debt. Just plodding along without developing these players guarantees administration if not that season, then the next.

 

Of course it was a conscious decision to go with Poortvliet, but that was heavily dictated by the financial situation. Take away that financial mess and Pearson may well still be here along with the club in the CCC.

 

The worst decision was ****ing away £40M and leaving us in this perilous position with a snowball in hells chance of getting out of it. In normal times your point would be valid, but as I have explained previously, this was a forced decision which was largely dictated by circumstance.

 

We should get a decent idea about Pearson this season if they make it into the play offs with their resources, but there was very little conclusive proof previously to definitely say he would have been any better in the circumstances. When you omit DMG completely from the bench for the likes of Pericard it really does not give the impression you are prepared to maximise your youth potential.

[SaintRobbie]

We were forced to go with the younger players because of the financial mess we were in. We were in so much financial mire the only way out was to develop the younger players to sell on and wipe out our debt. Just plodding along without developing these players guarantees administration if not that season, then the next.

 

Of course it was a conscious decision to go with Poortvliet, but that was heavily dictated by the financial situation. Take away that financial mess and Pearson may well still be here along with the club in the CCC.

 

The worst decision was ****ing away £40M and leaving us in this perilous position with a snowball in hells chance of getting out of it. In normal times your point would be valid, but as I have explained previously, this was a forced decision which was largely dictated by circumstance.

 

We should get a decent idea about Pearson this season if they make it into the play offs with their resources, but there was very little conclusive proof previously to definitely say he would have been any better in the circumstances. When you omit DMG completely from the bench for the likes of Pericard it really does not give the impression you are prepared to maximise your youth potential.

 

No. Sorry we were not 'forced' to play kids. It was a strategy employed by Wotte and Lowe as they thought it could work. We played kids WHILST PAYING EXPERIENCED INTERNATIONALS to not even sit on the bench.

 

It was a crass and very very naive decision by Lowe, sponsored by Wotte. Sorry...

 

There simply were alternatives to Lowe's arrogant, pride-based decision-making. The key ones were not sacking a decent manager and playing the experienced players.

[saintjay77]

This is getting into a dodgy argument really.

 

I think you both agree Pearson should have been given the chance this season and he quite possibly would have done better than JP and Wotte. You obviously dissagree with why Pearson got the push and JP got the nod for last season but to be fair that has been done to death and is not really relative any more.

 

This thread is supposed to be about the possible players going out and Wotte hanging about to find out if he has a future with us. Its got side tracked into last seasons debates and I am just as guilty of taking it that way as anyone else.

 

Would we be happy if any of last seasons players that under performed were still with us next season and would we be prepared to give Wotte a chance next season should the new owners decided to give him 12 months?

 

I cant say I would be thrilled if we start next season with the same squad but I dont know what position we would be in to build a new saints team either. Ive said before that I would understand a decission to give Wotte a further 12 months and would be interested to see what he could do with support from above and a free reign to pick a team of available players. Think I would be more excited however to see a load of new faces from top to bottom.

[um pahars]

Of course it was a conscious decision to go with Poortvliet, but that was heavily dictated by the financial situation. Take away that financial mess and Pearson may well still be here along with the club in the CCC.

 

But how was the decision to go with Poortvliet over Pearson dictated by the financial position???

 

Pearson was more than happy to go with the "youth approach" as was shown by his words whilst he was here and by his deeds at Leicester last season.

 

And he was more than happy to work under the new regime's parameters.

 

Pearson has shown by his deeds that he is not averse to playing youngsters, nor wheeling and dealing on a small budget.

 

It was pretty obvious that he would be up for such a strategy, particularly when you look back to see he said the following not long after taking over:

 

On youth:

 

"A lot of my background is working with youngsters. I worked with the England youth teams for three years and I see the Academy as a massive part of the club.

 

 

On working with limited funds

 

"It will be a combination. The reality is there will be comings and goings, there is no doubt about that.

 

Economics will play a part and there will be some natural wastage as players come to the end of their contracts. Then it will be a case of finding players who fit the bill.

 

We need a side capable of getting success but which fits in with the financial situation. But we are not going to be splashing fortunes on players.

 

Even in the short time I have been here, I have been looking to see if we can get players on loan. Short-term is the immediate priority but I am looking long-term too."

 

 

On youth again, but how the relegation fight must be a priority

 

It cannot be my priority at the moment but it will get my total support in terms of fitting in with the philosophy of the club.

 

I have worked at clubs where the academy and first-team are separate entities and not integrated at all and those clubs are the poorer for it.

 

If you put the right effort into recruiting and developing the right players then it can save the club a lot of money on transfer fees."

 

 

 

If you're alluding to the salary saving for going for Pearson/Wotte against Pearson, then that has shown to be one of the most ridiculous false economies ever witnessed at this Club.

 

They however thought they knew better and went for a coach who they thought could deliver. The sad thing was that I doubt Poortvliet could deliver the De Groene Amsterdammer.

 

It is totally impossible to say whether Pearson would have achieved better than Poortvliet and Wotte, but I think you're in the minority if you honestly think Pearson couldn't have delivered better than the tripe we saw last season.

 

Going with Poortvliet over Pearson was not a forced decision, nor was it one dictated by finances, it was merely a footballing decision that ended up as one of the most disastrous and costly decisions in recent history.

[up and away]

No. Sorry we were not 'forced' to play kids. It was a strategy employed by Wotte and Lowe as they thought it could work. We played kids WHILST PAYING EXPERIENCED INTERNATIONALS to not even sit on the bench.

 

It was a crass and very very naive decision by Lowe, sponsored by Wotte. Sorry...

 

There simply were alternatives to Lowe's arrogant, pride-based decision-making. The key ones were not sacking a decent manager and playing the experienced players.

 

Have you been suffering from selective news black outs over the last few years? Our only chance of financial survival rested with being able to force those HIGH SALARY EXPERIENCED INTERNATIONALS to another club or off our books! And if you cannot get them off the books by all means play them, but if that results in having to pay bonuses that again threaten your very existence, you think that is a good idea? If you can get them to forego those bonuses, by all means use them at will. Would you have preferred administration earlier?

[Hopkins]

Am I the only one agreeing with 19 here? He's talking facts and sense.

 

Yes Pearson kept us up. For that I am grateful. However, the football we played under his games in charge was truely horrific. Not only that, but he only put us into a posistion whereby other results actually kept us up. Not exactly a great record. However he did keep us up.

 

Then look at Leicester. If he had done anything but walk League 1 with the resources he had at his disposal he would have been sacked.

 

He's done nothing beyond average in his managerial career. He had a stinker here, saved only by other results, I'm delighted he never got appointed as full time manager, the desicion to appoint the dutch duo was the wrong desicion not, not appointing Pearson. He's gone onto to do the minimum expectation at Leicester. Fair play to him, its a challenge for him next year, then people can start to judge him. I hope he fails because I think he's a boring bloke and I don't like Leicester.

 

To compare him with Wotte/JP is a bit harsh on the dutch duo aswell. Look at the team Pearson had to keep us up. A more than capable bunch of players, who, if Dodd and Gorman had left them well alone, could well have been safe alot earlier. Whearas baring two or three experienced individuals who were either ****e and or didn't want to be anywhere near here (Apart from JPS, Perry and Davis), Wotte and JP had a bunch of potentially decent kids but who were just a little out of there depth at this stage in there careers.

[Arizona]

Am I the only one agreeing with 19 here? He's talking facts and sense.

 

Yes Pearson kept us up. For that I am grateful. However, the football we played under his games in charge was truely horrific. Not only that, but he only put us into a posistion whereby other results actually kept us up. Not exactly a great record. However he did keep us up.

 

Then look at Leicester. If he had done anything but walk League 1 with the resources he had at his disposal he would have been sacked.

 

He's done nothing beyond average in his managerial career. He had a stinker here, saved only by other results, I'm delighted he never got appointed as full time manager, the desicion to appoint the dutch duo was the wrong desicion not, not appointing Pearson. He's gone onto to do the minimum expectation at Leicester. Fair play to him, its a challenge for him next year, then people can start to judge him. I hope he fails because I think he's a boring bloke and I don't like Leicester.

 

To compare him with Wotte/JP is a bit harsh on the dutch duo aswell. Look at the team Pearson had to keep us up. A more than capable bunch of players, who, if Dodd and Gorman had left them well alone, could well have been safe alot earlier. Whearas baring two or three experienced individuals who were either ****e and or didn't want to be anywhere near here (Apart from JPS, Perry and Davis), Wotte and JP had a bunch of potentially decent kids but who were just a little out of there depth at this stage in there careers.

 

So what about Burley who took over Saints in midtable, spent £10m, scraped into the playoffs, lost, then left again when we were midtable with a massive wage bill? Or Man City, who had silly money to spend on players like Jo, Bridge, Given, SWP and Robinho, but only finished 10th? Or Chelsea who spent over £100m in their first season but only finished second? Leicester won L1 with 96 points and 9 points clear of MKD in 3rd. If that's the minimum we should have expected, what would be an "average" season? Winning every game? Getting promoted and solving world poverty? I'm not sure what your full name is, but with standards like that I'll bet it starts with "Sergeant Major"

 

To win any League takes real managerial tallent, especially given it was his first season in the job. Regardless of the quality of the squad, which the manager takes some credit for himself for assembling.

 

I also cannot believe you are complaining about the quality of football we played under Pearson. He took over about an hour before his first game, had no time or money to assemble a squad and managed to turn our fortunes around with a couple of loan signings. It seems getting the squad fit and motivated and keeping us up wasn't good enough for some people, who would only have been satisfied if we stayed up playing like Brazil and got into the playoffs.

[um pahars]

He had a stinker here, saved only by other results,.

 

In the two months prior to Pearson's arrival, we sat 23rd in the table over that period having accumulated 7 points from 10 games, a points per game ratio that would have seen us relegated.

 

And of course that dark period finished with the embarrassing defeat at Bristol Rovers.

 

By comparison, over Pearson's 13 game tenure we were 13th in that "league" with a points per game ratio that was safely mid table.

 

Particularly when compared to what went before him, I really don't think he had a stinker here.

 

Mid table with that squad and the current form he inherited was a decent performance, nothing exceptional, but definitely not a stinker.

[Chez]

In the two months prior to Pearson's arrival, we sat 23rd in the table over that period having accumulated 7 points from 10 games, a points per game ratio that would have seen us relegated.

 

And of course that dark period finished with the embarrassing defeat at Bristol Rovers.

 

By comparison, over Pearson's 13 game tenure we were 13th in that "league" with a points per game ratio that was safely mid table.

 

Particularly when compared to what went before him, I really don't think he had a stinker here.

 

Mid table with that squad and the current form he inherited was a decent performance, nothing exceptional, but definitely not a stinker.

 

I suggest Hopkins that you read these facts and good sense.

[Hopkins]

His job was to come in and keep us up. He did that. Fair play. I'm grateful. Well done etc however he did it because ultimately results went his way on the last day. He still did it, I'm not denying that, i'm not saying we shouldn't be grateful but we should be realistic. Yes he kept us up, but IMO, he didn't do anything to prove that he would have been a decent option this season. He didn't do this with the football we played. He didn't do this with the signings he made (Other than Richard Wright).

 

The place we/Lowe went wrong was thinking Wotte/JP were decent options, however if put in that place myself, I would not have gone with Pearson because I felt despite keeping us up, there was nothing to suggest that he would have been any good. Who knows. Maybe he would have. We'll never know. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the time for me, Pearson peformance was only just on par.

 

So what about Burley who took over Saints in midtable, spent £10m, scraped into the playoffs, lost, then left again when we were midtable with a massive wage bill? Or Man City, who had silly money to spend on players like Jo, Bridge, Given, SWP and Robinho, but only finished 10th? Or Chelsea who spent over £100m in their first season but only finished second? Leicester won L1 with 96 points and 9 points clear of MKD in 3rd. If that's the minimum we should have expected, what would be an "average" season? Winning every game? Getting promoted and solving world poverty? I'm not sure what your full name is, but with standards like that I'll bet it starts with "Sergeant Major"

 

To win any League takes real managerial tallent, especially given it was his first season in the job. Regardless of the quality of the squad, which the manager takes some credit for himself for assembling.

 

I also cannot believe you are complaining about the quality of football we played under Pearson. He took over about an hour before his first game, had no time or money to assemble a squad and managed to turn our fortunes around with a couple of loan signings. It seems getting the squad fit and motivated and keeping us up wasn't good enough for some people, who would only have been satisfied if we stayed up playing like Brazil and got into the playoffs.

 

As for this...

 

1) Regarding Burley - Much tougher league than league 1. We along with a few other teams were fighting for playoff places and above. Leicester were clear favourites and quite rightly so. Just as we would be now in league 1 if we didn't have the minus 10 and I have no doubt about it, if we had gone into League 1 level with everyone else, everyone on this forum would be expecting to walk this division.

 

2) Chelsea sacked there manager after failing. City despite spending shed loads, yes have had a bit of a stinker this season but its a much tougher league and different situation than Leicester in League 1.

 

3) Yes he can take some credit but really not alot for this season. The Leicester squad is a squad which only just got relegated from the Championship the season before

and has hardly any departures and had some good backing when needed by a stupidly rich chairman for that division. When he has had this season in the Championship with Leicester, where alot of teams will be on par with him, he can be judged.

 

4) I dont care how many hours he had to prepare his team before his first game (Which by the way, we got stuffed in so most people are disregarding that as one of his matches, so really he had a week or whatever it was before the next game), the facts are he bought in the likes of Pericard and had us playing some hideous football. Yes stats show we were 13th in the form table or whatever it was, yes we were difficult to beat and yes we stayed up, however we were truely shocking to watch and if he's working towards staying on the season after football like that does not appeal to me and none of it showed any work in progress. It smacked of putting experienced players out there, defending for our lives and hoofing it towards John who we banked on scoring the odd quality strike. How anyone thinks he would have coped with the financial situation that had to be placed onto our squad this season is beyond me. The youngsters did not suit the grit and dogged peformances that Pearson had shown he was trying to install, those youngsters were no doubt going to be introduced by whoever was manager because thats what our financial situation insisted on, those youngsters had been bought upto play there passing flair football that the likes of Prost had drummed into them, they were not going to flourish with Pearsons long ball tactics that he had put in place with better players.

 

Problem is, they didn't flourish with JP and Wotte either.