It's not a good day for it...

[Arizona]

An Air France aircraft with 228 people on board has gone missing in the Atlantic. There is no hope of the aircraft now landing safely as it would have run out of fuel several hours ago. The aircraft apparently encountered severe turbulence and suffered an electrical problem at some point. Little else is known.

 

We can only hope there are half a dosen life rafts full of survivors drifting around, but it doesn't look good.

[Smirking_Saint]

They have life jackets

[Dimond Geezer]

I thought the inflatable escape chutes detach to form a raft

[Arizona]

Planes don't have life rafts??

 

On long range aircraft like the one in question the escape slides double up as life rafts.

[Johnny Bognor]

Planes don't have life rafts??

 

 

Of Course they do...... the slides dettach and can be used as life rafts.

 

Having said that, if they land like this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zuLP-QYiy0

 

...they won't get much of a chance to deploy them

[Weston Super Saint]

Having dropped out of the sky from 30odd thousand feet, I doubt the life rafts will do much good to be fair.

 

It always amazes me how much fuss they make about putting on seatbelts in aircraft too, as they probably wouldn't do much good plummeting into the earth at a couple of hundred knots

[Arizona]

Having dropped out of the sky from 30odd thousand feet, I doubt the life rafts will do much good to be fair.

 

It always amazes me how much fuss they make about putting on seatbelts in aircraft too, as they probably wouldn't do much good plummeting into the earth at a couple of hundred knots

 

Almost all in flight injuries and fatalities (which aren't attributed to an accident or pre-existing medical condition) are caused by people not having their seatbelts on during turbulence.

 

Obviously if you slam into the ground at 400kts, they aren't going to help, but in the event of a crash like the Sioux City crash (youtube it) half the people onboard survived. I doubt many of them would have been so fortunate had they not been wearing their seatbelts.

 

In short, buckle up whenever you're in your seat, same as any car journey.

 

P.S. You don't know it has 'dropped'. A controlled landing on water is possible, if extremely unlikely.

[Saint_clark]

If there are survivors surely they will find them by the end of the day, there must be some form of GPS tracking on the rafts.

[Arizona]

There is an ELT (locator beacon) on the aircraft, which goes off automatically on contact with water. There is, to my knowledge, nothing on any of the individual slides.

[Mole]

They have life jackets

 

And a whistle.

[hamster]

Having dropped out of the sky from 30odd thousand feet, I doubt the life rafts will do much good to be fair.

 

It always amazes me how much fuss they make about putting on seatbelts in aircraft too, as they probably wouldn't do much good plummeting into the earth at a couple of hundred knots

 

It helps in identifying the bodies, I believe this to be true.

[Baj]

There is an ELT (locator beacon) on the aircraft, which goes off automatically on contact with water. There is, to my knowledge, nothing on any of the individual slides.

Seems a waste given how cheaply that sort of equipment can be put together these days.

[OldNick]

oh my god Im flying to NY on wednesday,having already had an emergency landing due to an engine fire these things do unsettle me.

[Deanovski]

mate im flying to new york on the 10th

[OldNick]

mate im flying to new york on the 10th

I suspect the security will be stepped up big time you dont get many airliners fall out of the air over the atlantic.I think it is the first time since Lockerbie (I know that was not over the atlantic)

[hamster]

I suspect the security will be stepped up big time you dont get many airliners fall out of the air over the atlantic.I think it is the first time since Lockerbie (I know that was not over the atlantic)

 

I'm not sure how widely known this is but I understand that the PanAm bomb had a combination of two switches, whereby an altitude switch (activated on the first leg of the devices journey into LHR) set off a timer switch, which was due to explode somewhere over the atlantic after the plane had left LHR for the States

 

The 'device' was actually held up in the bowels of Heathrow's baggage system directly and underneath Terminal 1 for a few hours, a further delay of only a couple of hours could have seen even more carnage and loss of life.

 

The 'Lockerbie disaster' could have been known as either the 'Missing over the Atlantic mystery' or the 'Heathrow disaster'.

Edited 1 June, 2009 by hamster

[jeff leopard]

Almost all in flight injuries and fatalities (which aren't attributed to an accident or pre-existing medical condition) are caused by people not having their seatbelts on during turbulence.

 

Happy thought of the day, apparently the main reason passengers are told to do the 'brace brace' head between the knees thing on crash landing is that it prevents the teeth being shattered on impact, allowing dentals records to be used to identify bodies.

[OldNick]

Happy thought of the day, apparently the main reason passengers are told to do the 'brace brace' head between the knees thing on crash landing is that it prevents the teeth being shattered on impact, allowing dentals records to be used to identify bodies.

thanks for that, it would be the last thing that went through my head apart from the seat in front of me of course.

[Jillyanne]

What lovely happy thoughts. I hate flying.

[hamster]

What lovely happy thoughts. I hate flying.

 

Jilly, flying is fun, crashing is not.

 

The advice of placing your head between your legs just before impact is so that you can kiss your arse goodbye.

[maxi_sopez]

yeah truly horrible the fear those poor people must have felt....

 

one good thing is for those flying soon, you will be probs fine the law of averages say this wont happen for a while now

[Barfy]

Happy thought of the day, apparently the main reason passengers are told to do the 'brace brace' head between the knees thing on crash landing is that it prevents the teeth being shattered on impact, allowing dentals records to be used to identify bodies.

 

I thought the other rumour behind the head between the knees thing was that it was more likely to cause fatal injuries than disabling ones therefore reducing insurance payouts to victims & familes?

[OldNick]

I always just think of all the thousands of retired pilots still walking around.Then I watch all the planes going up and landing and that makes me feel better as I pick up the newspaper and read pilot arrested for being drunk on duty

[hamster]

If anyone is worried about crashing they can check the stats here:

http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/

 

It's fairly safe really.

[Johnny Bognor]

There is an ELT (locator beacon) on the aircraft, which goes off automatically on contact with water. There is, to my knowledge, nothing on any of the individual slides.

 

I think it depends on the airline.

 

Virgin definately carry portable emergency beacons although they are located in the cabins (not on the slides) - the cabin crew nearest these would grab them and exit the plane with them.

[Mole]

I don't mind flying on big planes, but i'd never want to fly on one of Thomas Cook airlines "minibuses with wings" again.

[Um Bongo]

People are talking about lighting strikes but can't a plane still fly if struck by lighting?

 

And i guess theres a chance it's carried out a landing, albeit in rough seas in the middle of nowhere.

[Torres]

 

The 'device' was actually held up in the bowels of Heathrow's baggage system directly and underneath Terminal 1 for a few hours, a further delay of only a couple of hours could have seen even more carnage and loss of life.

 

The 'Lockerbie disaster' could have been known as either the 'Missing over the Atlantic mystery' or the 'Heathrow disaster'.

 

Wasn't the bomb inside a small tape recorder? Large enough to do a lot of damage to a plane at 30,000 feet but not really big enough to kill many/anyone on the ground, no?

[Marsdinho]

I read somewhere that most injuries on planes are caused by people not being able to unclip their seat belts.

 

Also, the reason why the lights are dimmed during landing is so that your eyes get used to low light conditions should you need to navigate your way out of the plane if it crashes and all power is lost..

 

Also, the reason why all the window shutters are pulled up during landing is because it makes it easier for search and rescue teams to asses the situation when the plane is in bits on the ground.

[Baj]

Wasn't the bomb inside a small tape recorder? Large enough to do a lot of damage to a plane at 30,000 feet but not really big enough to kill many/anyone on the ground, no?

 

Indeed, if it had gone off on the ground it would have killed (at most) anyone sat directly above and possibly a couple of ground crew. as it was, it could only have killed more by crashing over a more populated area

[Baj]

I read somewhere that most injuries on planes are caused by people not being able to unclip their seat belts.

Not quite right, but deaths do occur by people in shock after a crash trying to undo their belt like a car seatbelt and not being able to undo it.

[Marsdinho]

Not quite right, but deaths do occur by people in shock after a crash trying to undo their belt like a car seatbelt and not being able to undo it.

 

Yeah didnt really explain myself that well. Reading my post back, it sounds like the injuries are actually as a result of the seat belt....!!!!!

 

What i meant to say was that, in the event of a crash, most injuries are caused by not being able to operate the belt.

[hamster]

Wasn't the bomb inside a small tape recorder? Large enough to do a lot of damage to a plane at 30,000 feet but not really big enough to kill many/anyone on the ground, no?

 

Indeed, if it had gone off on the ground it would have killed (at most) anyone sat directly above and possibly a couple of ground crew. as it was, it could only have killed more by crashing over a more populated area

 

The actual area where it was held/stored for those couple of hours is directly below T1 adjacent to Queens Building, and at the time was not bomb-proofed. The area is one floor above street level 'airside' and even a smallish device going off there could have brought the treminal down on top of it.

 

Aviation security although very heavily led by so called 'intellignce' is reactionary, hence the madness that fiollowed 11/9. in my humble opinion, they (terrorists) will always find a weakness in security. The biggest threat to security is and always will be Complacency, unfortunately we will never be able to counter complacency as it is a human trait.

[Marsdinho]

anyway, enjoy your flights people...

[Torres]

The actual area where it was held/stored for those couple of hours is directly below T1 adjacent to Queens Building, and at the time was not bomb-proofed. The area is one floor above street level 'airside' and even a smallish device going off there could have brought the treminal down on top of it.

 

16 ounces of Semtex?

[hamster]

16 ounces of Semtex?

 

Sorry don't follow you? Is that a lot?

[LVSaint]

If anyone is worried about crashing they can check the stats here:

http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/

 

It's fairly safe really.

 

My friend and ex-colleague Chris, here in Vegas owns that site.

[Arizona]

Happy thought of the day, apparently the main reason passengers are told to do the 'brace brace' head between the knees thing on crash landing is that it prevents the teeth being shattered on impact, allowing dentals records to be used to identify bodies.

 

This is an urban myth. There's really not much more that I can add to that. It's just not true.

 

I suspect the security will be stepped up big time you dont get many airliners fall out of the air over the atlantic.I think it is the first time since Lockerbie (I know that was not over the atlantic)

 

I am of the oppinion that this was not a bomb. I know there is no evidence to disprove that theory, but to me the report of severe turbulence just before is too much of a coincidence. Also the French and the Brazilians must be pretty far down the list of people liable to terrorist attacks. Especially when so many American airlines use Rio and they'd be the obvious target if a weakness in GIG's security was discovered.

 

Seems a waste given how cheaply that sort of equipment can be put together these days.

 

Cheap, but still a cost, an generally quite an unnescessary one. I cannot think of ANY aviation accident where having locator beacons on the rafts would have aided rescue, when the ELTs in the aircraft failed.

 

As painful as it is to say it, if the ELT didn't go off on AF447, it was probably annihalated by the impact and nobody would have survived to use a raft.

 

I thought the other rumour behind the head between the knees thing was that it was more likely to cause fatal injuries than disabling ones therefore reducing insurance payouts to victims & familes?

 

Again, an urban myth.

 

I think it depends on the airline.

 

Virgin definately carry portable emergency beacons although they are located in the cabins (not on the slides) - the cabin crew nearest these would grab them and exit the plane with them.

 

All airlines carry emergency beacons (the ELT) which are portable. They can be activated manually, or automatically on contact with water. They broadcast on radio frequency which all commercial aircraft monitor in the cruise. I've heard them myself on occasion, although I don't know the circumstances in which they were activated.

 

Funny story; a stewardess was once asked for a BLT by a passenger. English not being her first language, the misunderstood and brought the passenger a (fully activated) ELT beacon. Not sure which airline that was with, but I think it's safe to assume she is no longer with them.

 

I don't mind flying on big planes, but i'd never want to fly on one of Thomas Cook airlines "minibuses with wings" again.

 

Large aircraft are no safer than small aircraft. Both are subjected to the same rigorous part testing and built to withstand 1.5x the strongest turbulence you can EVER expect (unless you fly through a very powerful hunderstorm cell). All the crews are familiar with the safety procedures on the aircraft... saftey varies depending on the type of aircraft and the company opperating it, but isn't related to the aircraft size.

 

People are talking about lighting strikes but can't a plane still fly if struck by lighting?

 

And i guess theres a chance it's carried out a landing, albeit in rough seas in the middle of nowhere.

 

Aircraft are designed to comfortably take a lightning strike. I have a good friend who was hit by lightning whilst landing in prestwick last month. Other than 150 pairs of dirty underwear, no damage was done other than a small black mark where the lightning exited the fuselage.

 

Lightning alone could not have caused this crash. IF it is involved, there must have been some pre-existing technical fault with the aircraft.

 

I read somewhere that most injuries on planes are caused by people not being able to unclip their seat belts.

 

Also, the reason why the lights are dimmed during landing is so that your eyes get used to low light conditions should you need to navigate your way out of the plane if it crashes and all power is lost..

 

Also, the reason why all the window shutters are pulled up during landing is because it makes it easier for search and rescue teams to asses the situation when the plane is in bits on the ground.

 

The second and third statements are correct. The first I seriously doubt. Unless the cabin is filling with smoke or one fire, I can't think how you'd become injured by being securely held into your seat. In the event of a catastrophic crash this may well be the case, but the passengers would most likely have been killed instantly on impact if they weren't wearing their seatbelts.

 

Wasn't the bomb inside a small tape recorder? Large enough to do a lot of damage to a plane at 30,000 feet but not really big enough to kill many/anyone on the ground, no?

 

Correct. It takes very little explosive to bring down an aircraft. Having a pressurised cabin creates a potentially explosive scenario in itself (if you take the true meaning of explosive and not when it is incorrectly used instead of volatile or flamable.) Blowing a whole in the cabin, combined with this pressure can cause catestrophic damage (If you want to know more, Google Air India 182). You would struggle to kill a dosen people on the ground with the explosives it takes to bring down a jumbo, hence terrorists love taking a pop at them.

[Wiltshire Saint]

Funny story; a stewardess was once asked for a BLT by a passenger. English not being her first language, the misunderstood and brought the passenger a (fully activated) ELT beacon. Not sure which airline that was with, but I think it's safe to assume she is no longer with them.

 

Actually this is an urban myth.

[Master Bates]

Apparently ART's mobile still works http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2458737/228-die-as-jet-crashes-in-storm.html

[SNSUN]

Actually this is an urban myth.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/locator.asp

[Hatch]

I don't understand why they can't find it.

[Jillyanne]

I don't understand why they can't find it.

 

It is under the water, or something.

[chrisobee]

Well of course they are still searching though there seems to be a possibility they may not find any trace of the plane:

 

Kieran Daly, editor of internet news service Air Transport Intelligence, said it was "absolutely imperative" that the black box flight recorder was found. He went on: "If it's not recovered we may never know exactly what happened and the implications of this would be enormous."

[thesaint sfc]

I don't understand why they can't find it.

 

Exactly.

 

I managed to find it straight away.

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/r8s940.jpg

[chrisobee]

It is under the water, or something.

 

Yep, and of course a tremendous amount of area to search even allowing of course for the fact that they will clearly have an indication of the area. Apparently the Atlantic comprises 106.4 million square kilometres (41.1 million square miles).

[OldNick]

I don't understand why they can't find it.

they can read your car number plate from so high up, but couldnt see Bin Laden escape on a donkey so how do you think they will see a Airbus

[Hatch]

It is under the water, or something.

 

Whats the point of putting the homing beacon or whatever it's called on a plane if they don't work underwater.

Why doesn't someone design an underwater one?

 

It's a cover up!

 

 

Maybe it crashed into that Brazilian Priest bloke who disappeared with all them balloons.

[Block 18]

Things are starting to come to light, this from A Sky news blog:

 

Air France Flight A447. The Last 4 Minutes. Tim Marshall

June 02, 2009 5:07 PM

 

 

I've just got this from someone I trust. It originates within Air France. Translation below;

 

'The ACARS messages of system failures began to arrive at 02:10Z. Indication was that the

autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived. At 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed."

 

"Received 4 minutes of automatically triggered satcom transmission from the plane, cascading systems failures, electrics, depressurization."

 

I ran this past an expert. It confirms the theories doing the rounds. It says the plane automatically sent the messages. These are not verbal messages from the pilots. A sudden event caused the autopilot to disengage. The 'cascade' is one system after another failing within seconds of each other. That included the cabin pressure. This suggests the pilots would have had little or no time to attempt to do anything.

 

The advisory on 'cabin vertical speed' is the last message. It may be an automated 'ping' but it still manages to be chilling. The expert says the the fact that the messages were sent out over a four minute period concurs with significant parts of the plane, especially the ****pit, still being intact as the different parts of the signalling computers would have to be attached to the mainframe.

 

http://blogs.news.sky.com/foreignmatters/Post:0fc148fa-4542-4246-99e7-c0a8824562e6

[Crab Lungs]

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

 

Interesting read, if you can be bothered to read it...