Weston Super Saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 If it's Aviva who are holding things up you have a point, but if it's Barclays you don't. 2007 Barclays: Here you go Saints borrow £6 million Saints: Cheers 2008 Barclays: Actually we've stuffed up our business can we have that money back now? Saints: Oh don't really have it lying around at the moment I'll pay you back as quickly as I can... Here's 2 Million... 2009 Barclays: Fed up waiting. 4 million now please. Saints: Umm no, we've given you everything we can. Be patient and we'll get it to you. Barclays: BUT I WANT IT NOW! You're going into administration. Administrator: Well the best price I can get for you is 50p in the pound. Barclays: NO NO NO I WANT IT ALL!!! NOW!!!!! I'm just going to sit here throwing my toys out of the pram until I get it. Sauce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefuriousb Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Is someone able to explain how the creditors get more from a liquidated saints than from one where an investor takes the club forward? I understand that approx £8m is being mooted as being paid by potential investors.... so how will liquidation raise more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 On judgement day the creditors will have to settle for anything better than the breakup value of the club. But the breakup value of the club could be potentially more than what the investors are offering? Isn't the figure of £8m of something being banded about to buy the club and clear debts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Is someone able to explain how the creditors get more from a liquidated saints than from one where an investor takes the club forward? I understand that approx £8m is being mooted as being paid by potential investors.... so how will liquidation raise more?If somebody pays 6m+ for the stadium , Jacksons farm and our part of staplewood would add a bit more.Holding back and selling the players in a firesale would add more.it would soon get to far more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Is someone able to explain how the creditors get more from a liquidated saints than from one where an investor takes the club forward? I understand that approx £8m is being mooted as being paid by potential investors.... so how will liquidation raise more? Acres of land in Marchwood, potential for housing, even as farming land it has a value. Player sales, even with our crop of sh!te, they would raise a few million. The stadium, as it is, is worth money, St Marys as a landpiece could be a goldmine in the future if that side of the Itchen is ever developed, even without, you could clean up the land and stick houses on when the marked picks up, and still make a tidy profit. Jacksons farm. The Academy House, probably worth over a million on its own if the mortgage is paid off. £8m is realistic to be able to raise from breaking up the assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 It is the hideous risk of administration that the administrator is obliged to get the best deal for creditors, not the best for the club. If consortium A is offering 10 million coupled with a promised investment of 250 million pounds to push Saints towards the Champions League, and consortium B are offering 11 million with no plans for the football club, just wanting to turn a profit on selling the land off, the administrator has to sell to consortium B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landford.saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 QUESTION?????? If the club is liquidated surely the club no longer exists,,, In this case the players contracts are terminated and therefore they cant be sold ,,,,, They are worthless if the club is liquidated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefuriousb Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 What is most unrealistic though.... the amount the creditors want from the investors? Or the amount the investors are trying to pick the club up for? Maybe the bank know how much the 'real' value of SFC is, taking into account all of the land etc, and don't want to be mugged off? Just playing devils advocate as I do so well, like! But the value of the land (JF) was listed as no more than £1m, was it not? Planning permission has not been granted, and it does not lie in an area where significant development is planned. Plus, surely, if anything the "real" value has dropped in the last 18 months ..along with house prices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 QUESTION?????? If the club is liquidated surely the club no longer exists,,, In this case the players contracts are terminated and therefore they cant be sold ,,,,, They are worthless if the club is liquidated... Not as far as I am aware, they will still command a fee under league rules which would be settled by a tribunal. ( i may well be wrong ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 18 May, 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May, 2009 QUESTION?????? If the club is liquidated surely the club no longer exists,,, In this case the players contracts are terminated and therefore they cant be sold ,,,,, They are worthless if the club is liquidated... Which will suit the players as they are free to then negotiate their contracts elsewhere in the knowledge the buying club has not had to fork out a transfer fee. No wonder not too many were throwing notes into the bucket! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefuriousb Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 If somebody pays 6m+ for the stadium , Jacksons farm and our part of staplewood would add a bit more.Holding back and selling the players in a firesale would add more.it would soon get to far more. PLayers would be released and have no value if the club is liquidated. Also JF is not valued at anywhere approaching 2-3 mil. I still don't see how the break up value is greater than £8m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 QUESTION?????? If the club is liquidated surely the club no longer exists,,, In this case the players contracts are terminated and therefore they cant be sold ,,,,, They are worthless if the club is liquidated... That would be my understanding, they will be free agents. Someone (many moons ago) posted that Aviva could do a deal that they would get a further payout should Saints return to the Prem - this would not be possible in liquidation. I cannot believe that it will come to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 I'm wrong ( for the first time ever ), players could give 14 days notice of their intention to leave and walk away with nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFear Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 I only spin now for the future of my club - shame on you for thinking otherwise. Yea sure they are owed money (especially the small creditors whom I feel very sorry for) but the criticism is aimed at the bigger creditors who were happy to lend at high rates and are now reaping what they sow in this debacle. Now Ewell go shoot another messenger if it makes you feel better. not only high rates but also high risk and they knew it. it was a level of greed that made them agree to such high risk lending. lets not forget its not just in football that banks have lost money in recently its probably also worth bearing in mind that it wasnt this group that agreed/applied to/for these loans. i can see why they wold resent paying off too much of a loan they had no part in putting the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Which will suit the players as they are free to then negotiate their contracts elsewhere in the knowledge the buying club has not had to fork out a transfer fee. No wonder not too many were throwing notes into the bucket!but can the administrator keep the p[layers registration? even shortterm as they are under contract.Therefore he would sell qucikly before we go into administration.The other thing I have gleaned is that the wages go out on the 4th thurs in the month and so why have we been told they go out this week???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugget steve Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 As far as i can see, this is obviously the stumbling block. Until the offer for the club exceeds the liquidation value, then the administrator will not budge. He will have a price in mind but i dont think he will be prepared to haggle as he holds all the cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 PLayers would be released and have no value if the club is liquidated. Also JF is not valued at anywhere approaching 2-3 mil. I still don't see how the break up value is greater than £8m I dont know if it is possible but the players registrations may be able to be held or quickly sold before liquidation.Only a guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docker-p Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Can anyone make an educated guess as to if the foreign investors mentioned in todays echo are the Canadian sports investors mentioned a few weeks ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Not as far as I am aware, they will still command a fee under league rules which would be settled by a tribunal. ( i may well be wrong ) We had this debate the other day and to start with I don't think anyone really knows, but I take a slightly more pessimistic view with regards the sell off prices of our "assets". Firstly with regards the player sales, then no one is going to pay much in a firesale. On top of that there is the potential for the players to claim breach of contract (f they're not paid or if the Football Club ceases to exist) and they can then walk away for nothing (and split any transfer fee with their new club!!!). As for assets, most of Staplewood is not freehold and there are many restricions on it (it cannot be developd) and the same can be said for Jackson's farm. SMS isn't worth that much and after that you really are scraping the barrel. I think the creditor's best hope of getting a return would be if a deal could be brokered taking us on as a Going Concern, not least as they could build future payments into any deal which would be payable upon promotion to the Championship and the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefuriousb Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 (edited) Acres of land in Marchwood, potential for housing, even as farming land it has a value. Player sales, even with our crop of sh!te, they would raise a few million. The stadium, as it is, is worth money, St Marys as a landpiece could be a goldmine in the future if that side of the Itchen is ever developed, even without, you could clean up the land and stick houses on when the marked picks up, and still make a tidy profit. Jacksons farm. The Academy House, probably worth over a million on its own if the mortgage is paid off. £8m is realistic to be able to raise from breaking up the assets. Are you Mark Fry? At those prices, it is little wonder we haven't found someone to match the valuation! I would say that the break up value is about half of the £8m allegedly on the table. I have not seen an argument/case to explain just how the break up value could possibly reap more. Player values will be nil, and property prices have gone through the floor. Edited 18 May, 2009 by thefuriousb spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Reading people on this thread defending the bankers who are killing Southampton while watching a "Britain's Bankers: Still Cashing In" on Channel 4 (which detailed how much bankers are still raking in). Honestly you cannot defend these ****ers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Are you Mark Fry? At those prices, it is little wonder we haven't found someone to match the valuation! I would say that the break up value is about half of the £8m allegedly on the table. I have not seen an argument/case to explain just how the break uo vakue could possibly reap more. Player values will be nil, and property prices have gone through the floor. I was wrong about the players, their value would be nil in liquidation. Jacksons Farm, St Marys, The Academy House and Staplewood would struggle to get to £8m, granted, but then again, nobody on here is qualified enough to put a real value on the 3 plots of land we own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamsaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 question: if SLH is liquidated,ansd SFC is sold off, would SFC Ltd stillll be entitled to a place in L1? It would, I 'm sure be with the mother of all points deductions. Could we potentially see SFC bought at a knockdown price by perhaps Crouch or someone, as tenants at SMS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DG Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 So are we heading for another -15 on top of the -10 or will we even have a team to deduct next season? Good times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morph Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Maybe the creditors have heard the two guys in the consotium are worth in excess of £700million and want a larger slice of their money. Clearly the pinnacle group want to buy as cheap as possible. Hmmmmm standard negotiation me thinks. The question is who will walk away if they cant come to a compromise? My take on it is there is a great deal of brinkmanship and posturing going on at present. The guy negotiating the financial aspects of the deal needs to be very very good and by all accounts the financial guy from Pinnacle (and I'm not talking about Lynam) is just that. Oh yes, and Salz is definately not involved in the Pinnacle bid. A concerned but still confident Morph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 My take on it is there is a great deal of brinkmanship and posturing going on at present. The guy negotiating the financial aspects of the deal needs to be very very good and by all accounts the financial guy from Pinnacle (and I'm not talking about Lynam) is just that. Oh yes, and Salz is definately not involved in the Pinnacle bid. A concerned but still confident Morph Morph I want you to have my babies. All IMHO of course. SRS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Lets hope it is brinkmanship and haggling over the price because they dont want to overpay, not because they lack the funds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Claphams post earlier made me feel better.He was posting from the administrators point of view and he eased my concerns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypbl Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 but can the administrator keep the p[layers registration? even shortterm as they are under contract.Therefore he would sell qucikly before we go into administration.The other thing I have gleaned is that the wages go out on the 4th thurs in the month and so why have we been told they go out this week???? That's a very important piece of information, Nick. Not being able to pay the wages will probably be the reason, ultimately, that we go under. Wasn't there a quote somewhere in the Echo, about payday being the 3rd Thurs in the month? Where did your new info. come from? Someone on the payroll at the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild-saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 My take on it is there is a great deal of brinkmanship and posturing going on at present. The guy negotiating the financial aspects of the deal needs to be very very good and by all accounts the financial guy from Pinnacle (and I'm not talking about Lynam) is just that. Oh yes, and Salz is definately not involved in the Pinnacle bid. A concerned but still confident Morph So have you heard the £700million figure that these guys are worth too then? (Allbeit most in property etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNT Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Where there is talk of £8m i suspect its near on double that, what Barclays and aviva want. I guess they want alot of it upfront as well and not 70% via installments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 That's a very important piece of information, Nick. Not being able to pay the wages will probably be the reason, ultimately, that we go under. Wasn't there a quote somewhere in the Echo, about payday being the 3rd Thurs in the month? Where did your new info. come from? Someone on the payroll at the club?I only can tel you what I found out. The people were adamant that the wages gp out 4th thurs in the month and couldnt understand why the 3rd thurs has been stated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 As far as i can see, this is obviously the stumbling block. Until the offer for the club exceeds the liquidation value, then the administrator will not budge. He will have a price in mind but i dont think he will be prepared to haggle as he holds all the cards. All well and good having a figure in mind, but something only truly gains a 'value' when someone hands over cold hard cash for it! I would wager that those 'figures in mind' would be no where near achievable should we start a liquidation sale..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 . . . Of course I would imagine Fry's comment has been designed to focus all sides attention. I still remain confident that it is in all parties interests to complete. Indeed, it's now Mexican stand off. Who's going to blink first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morph Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Morph I want you to have my babies. All IMHO of course. SRS Gotta be positive. Do you really think our club will be allowed to disappear forever? No, nor do I Regards Morph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morph Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 So have you heard the £700million figure that these guys are worth too then? (Allbeit most in property etc) Yes, but I'm yet to be convinced of that. Regards (and this is the last of my 3 posts for today) Morph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 (edited) that, in the traumatic circumstances, the creditors are being a little too greedy. (Perhaps "unrealistic" or even "over ambitious" would be a better choice of adverb than "greedy") Excellent source. Well I told you they wouldn't take peanuts. Never do, never will, we have saleable assets and if necessary they will make us sell them; a total fùck up. Edited 18 May, 2009 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 So have you heard the £700million figure that these guys are worth too then? (Allbeit most in property etc) Really? You have heard that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Going to the wire then. Nice hair tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Gotta be positive. Do you really think our club will be allowed to disappear forever? No, nor do I Regards Morph Nope, I think we won't go out of business, that's not to say I don't think we will go into liquidation. When we end up in liquidation or as the final administration straw, I believe that the following will happen. 1) Southampton FC Ltd will continue ( although I am not sure if we will be in League 1 or Blue Square South ( depending on administration or liquidation ) 2) Jacksons Farm, Staplewood, The Academy House and any other non-stadium assets will be sold to pay the players wages first, then other creditors after that. 3) All players would be able to give 14 days notice and leave if Blue Square South, with others electing to stay ( the rubbish ones ). 4) Southampton City Council ( or another investor ) would buy St Marys Stadium. 5) Southampton would move in as tenants of Stoneham Lane, currently occupied by P*mpey. That Morph, is how I see it as the last resort and worst case scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoccerMom Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Gotta be positive. Do you really think our club will be allowed to disappear forever? No, nor do I Regards Morph So where's the moral imperative? With Barclays? No. With Pinnacle? No. With Fry? Hell no. Perhaps all the pledges are going to be more meaningful very, very soon because the only people who might take up the challenge of not 'allowing' the club to die are the fans. And perhaps the Council, who need a functioning sporting concern in the city for all sorts of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints Pedro Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 I only can tel you what I found out. The people were adamant that the wages gp out 4th thurs in the month and couldnt understand why the 3rd thurs has been stated! I tend to agree as for example the 3rd Thurs of Jan was the 15th and I doubt anyone gets paid that early. Cue person who's paid on the 1st! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SO16_Saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Im sorry.... what the **** is going on? I left for an appointment 3 hours ago and Pinnacle were gonners, and we were fooked. I've just logged on and seen x more threads and have no idea (same as everyone, i guess) wht the hell is going on. HELP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Nope, I think we won't go out of business, that's not to say I don't think we will go into liquidation. When we end up in liquidation or as the final administration straw, I believe that the following will happen. 1) Southampton FC Ltd will continue ( although I am not sure if we will be in League 1 or Blue Square South ( depending on administration or liquidation ) 2) Jacksons Farm, Staplewood, The Academy House and any other non-stadium assets will be sold to pay the players wages first, then other creditors after that. 3) All players would be able to give 14 days notice and leave if Blue Square South, with others electing to stay ( the rubbish ones ). 4) Southampton City Council ( or another investor ) would buy St Marys Stadium. 5) Southampton would move in as tenants of Stoneham Lane, currently occupied by P*mpey. That Morph, is how I see it as the last resort and worst case scenario. All plausible but i don't understand point 5 and who woudl play at SMS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Instant cash available when season ticket sales start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 (edited) All plausible but i don't understand point 5 and who woudl play at SMS? We would need a training ground as Staplewood would have been sold, and their is one there, which P*mpey are on their way out of anyway. Also, Southampton FC would, we won't cease to exist, we might be in the non-league, but Southampton FC Ltd can continue, it is Southampton FC Ltd that are registered with the F.A so it is my understanding that we would be able to continue. edit - just realised i made it sound we would play there, I meant tenants of the training ground. Edited 18 May, 2009 by StuRomseySaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 It is the hideous risk of administration that the administrator is obliged to get the best deal for creditors, not the best for the club. If consortium A is offering 10 million coupled with a promised investment of 250 million pounds to push Saints towards the Champions League, and consortium B are offering 11 million with no plans for the football club, just wanting to turn a profit on selling the land off, the administrator has to sell to consortium B. True, but you'd have to admit that consortium A would have to be pretty damned stupid to lose that bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamsaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Nope, I think we won't go out of business, that's not to say I don't think we will go into liquidation. When we end up in liquidation or as the final administration straw, I believe that the following will happen. 1) Southampton FC Ltd will continue ( although I am not sure if we will be in League 1 or Blue Square South ( depending on administration or liquidation ) 2) Jacksons Farm, Staplewood, The Academy House and any other non-stadium assets will be sold to pay the players wages first, then other creditors after that. 3) All players would be able to give 14 days notice and leave if Blue Square South, with others electing to stay ( the rubbish ones ). 4) Southampton City Council ( or another investor ) would buy St Marys Stadium. 5) Southampton would move in as tenants of Stoneham Lane, currently occupied by P*mpey. That Morph, is how I see it as the last resort and worst case scenario. surely even our worst players would look good in BS South. Wouldn't they??!! On a positive note(!!) if its BS South Nick Holmes is the ONLY man for the job. He'd get us out of there in no time, and keep this boards Tommy Widdrington fan club happy by bringing him along. Some decent fixtures in BS South too ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amesbury Saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Instant cash available when season ticket sales start. but we appear to have forgtton that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 It's all well and good saying that the club will be forced to sale the assets to pay the players wages etc but you have to have a willing buyer...ok maybe the academy house could be sold fairly quickly but jacksons farm and staplewood are virtually worthless to a developer.I just cannot see this option being a quick one,especially in this financial climate....people are just not willing to part with their cash and that also applies to millionaires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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