Terms of Crouch's offer of £2m

[Frank's cousin]

BUt from Lowe's perspective, irrespective of whether the 2 mil would help unilaterally, WTF would he hand control back to someone who when previously in that role felt it OK not to prevent the daft spending (and why Wilde never had any power - just a tool to let Lowe back in)... and perhaps at best very naive not to think that by making an enemy of Wilde it was inevitable he would not last long..... Doh!

[jonah]

That is the point Wilde promised to invest £2m at a good many board meetings, each time he promised it was coming next week !!! he could not raise the money, I believe he was rejected each time, even trying to raise the money against his company, in the end the board did not believe a word he said and got rid of him !! so to say he could pay £2m and remove Crouch is wrong he does not have the money.

 

So to summarise your point, Crouch already knew full well that Wilde didn't have the £2m and therefore his "offer" was nothing more than a cheap PR stunt to gain fan kudos (and which he deliberately leaked), as opposed to being a genuine attempt to rescue the club. He sounds as morally bankrupt as Wilde then.

[Frank's cousin]

I think we see a classic case again of how feckin difficult any of these guys make it for us fans to support them or their actions - Whilst not a fan of Lowe, I was supportive of various of his approaches, from the living within our means in the prem to trying new ideas - but with every mistake or gaff or refusing to accept his part in teh problems like a man it became increasingly untenable to continue and more embarrassing to admit to... I think there are several posters on here who are now finding this same situation with Crouch - prepared to acknowledge that in their opinion he was the best bet of the three, but with each new gaff (the PLC was set up deliberately to avoid points deductions any one?) or mistake (why did the chair of the football club not seek reassurances of investment when seeing the spending under Burley?) to his fan friendly but ultimately hollow promises its becoming increasiongly difficult to defend...

 

Lets all be honset here, those of us who have supported (during various times) eithe Lowe, Wilde or CRouch have ALL been let down.

[um pahars]

BUt from Lowe's perspective' date=' irrespective of whether the 2 mil would help unilaterally, WTF would he hand control back to someone who when previously in that role felt it OK not to prevent the daft spending (and why Wilde never had any power - just a tool to let Lowe back in)... and perhaps at best very naive not to think that by making an enemy of Wilde it was inevitable he would not last long..... Doh![/quote']

 

Of course that was Lowe's position, in that he felt Crouch was not the man to run the Club, but if you're faced with administration, relegation and a 10 point penalty, then maybe you might want to try and find a way of accepting the money and somehow finding any common ground to move forward.

 

Considering we've ended up relegated, in administration, on -10 points next season and with a chance of not even having a Club to support, then I think Lowe's view that only he could save the Club could be challenged;)

 

I think it would have needed some principles to be compromised, some egos reined in and some pride swallowed, but merely rejecting this offer didn't save us did it???

[Frank's cousin]

Of course that was Lowe's position, in that he felt Crouch was not the man to run the Club, but if you're faced with administration, relegation and a 10 point penalty, then maybe you might want to try and find a way of accepting the money and somehow finding any common ground to move forward.

 

Considering we've ended up relegated, in administration, on -10 points next season and with a chance of not even having a Club to support, then I think Lowe's view that only he could save the Club could be challenged;)

 

I think it would have needed some principles to be compromised, some egos reined in and some pride swallowed, but merely rejecting this offer didn't save us did it???

 

Do you realaly believe that this is down to incompetance or that the Barclays calling in the loan was from left field? Come on whatever you think of Lowe, even you must acknowledge that this was probably not planned for and an unexpected move by Barclays - maybe even against what had been agreed in principle?

[fos1]

So to summarise your point, Crouch already knew full well that Wilde didn't have the £2m and therefore his "offer" was nothing more than a cheap PR stunt to gain fan kudos (and which he deliberately leaked), as opposed to being a genuine attempt to rescue the club. He sounds as morally bankrupt as Wilde then.

 

He has kept our club going since we went into administration, whilst Lowe and Wilde headed for the hills without even donated £1,000, after what Lowe has taken out of our club I think that was least he could have done, perhaps Wilde couldnt raise the cash !! so talking of morally bankrupt that cap certainly fits with Lowe and Wilde !!

[NickG]

um, you seem to be the only one who doesn't see it

[Sheff Saint]

um, you seem to be the only one who doesn't see it

 

That's rubbish.

 

Either people on here know some serious inside information or they're trying to compare Lowe with 10 years at the helm, £x salary out the club, two relegations, administration and a dozen managers with Crouch who had 6 months in power, had invested £x million, was willing to offer more (however unrealistic that may or may not have been) and has kept the club going in the last few weeks.

 

I'm not trying to defend Crouch as some Churchillian style leader, heck i'm not even that bothered by the man, but to lump him in with how Lowe handled the last few years of his tenure is just bang unfair and inaccurate.

 

It also makes me really worried about the future. What is it that will actually make some of us happy?

[um pahars]

Do you realaly believe that this is down to incompetance or that the Barclays calling in the loan was from left field? Come on whatever you think of Lowe' date=' even you must acknowledge that this was probably not planned for and an unexpected move by Barclays - maybe even against what had been agreed in principle?[/quote']

 

From everything I have heard and seen the reduction on overdraft limit was imposed by Barclays last September (confirmed by lowe in his SKY interview), so Lowe & co had ample time to digest and accept this scenario, as tough as it may have been.

 

In addition, we also had a transfer window to try and address the issue through sales if necessary.

 

I think the final straw of Barclays refusing to honour the cheques was probably a combination of a change of heart by Barclays and a complete misreading of their intentions by Lowe.

 

When being kept alive through the goodwill of the Bank I would argue it is increasingly important to keep close to them and understand just what their viewpoint is. I can only summise that Lowe failed to do this.

 

Either way, we went in to administration under Lowe, we were relegated under Lowe, we start off with -10 under Lowe and we have no guarantee of even having a Club next season due to Lowe.

[aintforever]

Do you realaly believe that this is down to incompetance or that the Barclays calling in the loan was from left field? Come on whatever you think of Lowe' date=' even you must acknowledge that this was probably not planned for and an unexpected move by Barclays - maybe even against what had been agreed in principle?[/quote']

 

If this administration would have happened under Crouch you would be ripping him to shreds and you know it. I could practically write your "If Lowe was in charge..." ****** myself.

[um pahars]

um, you seem to be the only one who doesn't see it

 

Behave yourself. After the way you have paraphrased and summarised what was written in the Echo you should be ashamed of your sub editing skills. I think anyone would accept there are different ways to interpret the same pieces of information, but the way you have ignored pieces and glossed over others to suit your own perspectve is risible.

 

No room for negotiating when the offers and counter offers changed throughout those months????

 

And no attempt to remove Wilde in a rational way, then how about the Agenda item regarding Wilde selling his shares???

 

Loved the way you skipped over those two!!!!

 

If you had cared to read the Echo and if you had cared to read my posts then you would see that I believe Crouch went about this in the wrong manner, but I also think that given our predicament all three should have been doing their utmost to avoid administration.

 

As I said from the off, people would be advised to read the Echo for themselves and make their own judgements because quite frankly I would never suggest they should rely on you to paraphrase what was in there.

[NickG]

That's rubbish.

 

Either people on here know some serious inside information or they're trying to compare Lowe with 10 years at the helm, £x salary out the club, two relegations, administration and a dozen managers with Crouch who had 6 months in power, had invested £x million, was willing to offer more (however unrealistic that may or may not have been) and has kept the club going in the last few weeks.

 

I'm not trying to defend Crouch as some Churchillian style leader, heck i'm not even that bothered by the man, but to lump him in with how Lowe handled the last few years of his tenure is just bang unfair and inaccurate.

 

It also makes me really worried about the future. What is it that will actually make some of us happy?

 

 

where is this thread about Lowe or defending him? Think you are on wrong one!

[NickG]

We are all aware that Crouch has spoken about being willing to put £2m into saints to save it.

 

The echo publishes his offer letter in full, for those out of the area I will summarise;

 

A loan of £2m

 

conditions;

 

lowe matches it

Wilde matches it

Wilde resigns

Crouch becomes chairman

Lowe remains PLC chairman but no involvement with football matters

JP sacked

Wotte sacked

their compensation to be paid personally by Lowe and Wilde

 

 

Can't say I am surprised Wilde was against it! He would have had to pay £2m for the privilege of being sacked and then also personally pay compensation to Wotte and JP!

 

as the thread is getting a bit confusing just thought would come back to its point, the offer, which is fact.- not opinion, this is the offer he made, in writing through solicitors

Edited 12 May, 2009 by NickG

[um pahars]

as the thread is getting a bit confusing just thought would come back to its point, the offer, which if fact.

 

The only thing that seems to be confused is yourself who must find it difficult to read past the first chapter in a book:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

According to your interpretation of the World At War, Germany now still rule over Poland, most of Eastern Europe, France and the Low Countries.

 

Things do move on you know LMFAO.

 

I'm presuming you realised there were fve pages of articles in yesterdays Echo!!!!

[NickG]

do you agree this was his written offer?

 

do you think it was a good one?

 

do you think it was ever ever going to be accepted?

 

This is what the thread was about

[NickG]

The only thing that seems to be confused is yourself who must find it difficult to read past the first chapter in a book:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

According to your interpretation of the World At War, Germany now still rule over Poland, most of Eastern Europe, France and the Low Countries.

 

Things do move on you know LMFAO.

 

I'm presuming you realised there were fve pages of articles in yesterdays Echo!!!!

 

 

to your agenda, lol

[um pahars]

do you agree this was his written offer? Yes

 

do you think it was a good one? Not particularly (as I have said on numerous occasions)

 

do you think it was ever ever going to be accepted? No

 

This is what the thread was about This thread was about the terms of Crouch's offer which changed over time so why not continue and paraphrase how the negotiations, subsequent offers and counter offers pan out following that opening gambit?

 

You know the bits that include changes to the amounts and the terms attached to them, as well as proposing a rational way of removng Wilde

 

Feel free to provide us with the follow ups.

 

After all you did post the following well after your opening post accepting you had only read part of the article

 

not read the separate crouch article yet so fully accept your comments

Edited 12 May, 2009 by um pahars

[exit2]

Nick, your sub editing works a treat, and does look a crap deal from Crouch, but one question for you

Wilde resigns

 

From both boards or just the football one?

[NickG]

agreed, poor offer never going to be accepted, that was my point. Accept you have read into it more - but there are hundreds of threads on all sorts of issues around these clowns.

My point, which I still feel, was that it was a childish publicity seeking stunt.

[Bearsy]

One of the other conditions was that Lowe had to suck Crouch off in the centre circle halftime at the Forest match. He was never going to accept that Leon! Wilde might have done though?

[um pahars]

agreed, poor offer never going to be accepted, that was my point.

 

But could they have accepted one of the subsequent offers/revisions??

 

Was there potential to negotiate a deal that was suitable to all concerned and in the best interests of the Club??

 

Given our predicament (and the fact we were two months away from administration) should Lowe and Wilde been more receptive??

 

Given our predicament should Crouch have been less bullish and demanding??

 

From the many articles in that piece, then unlike you I take the view that Crouch was willing to put some money in to (a) stave off administration and (b) try and avoid relegation.

 

And given our predicament then all three of them should have done all they could to try and get a deal done and get some money in to the Club, so when judged against that they all failed to deliver this.

[exit2]

agreed, poor offer never going to be accepted, that was my point. Accept you have read into it more - but there are hundreds of threads on all sorts of issues around these clowns.

My point, which I still feel, was that it was a childish publicity seeking stunt.

 

OK you may feel that way but what if

 

lowe matched it (Overdraft now sat at £500,000)

Wilde matched it (now in credit to the tune of £1.5m)

Wilde resigns (from the football board and not the plc,which I think is what the deal was)

Crouch becomes chairman (of the football board)

Lowe became PLC chairman but had no involvement with football matters (fat chance lol)

JP was sacked (he went anyway, so wonder what his package was, wouldnt be much)

Wotte was sacked his compensation to be paid personally by Lowe and Wilde (only falling dwon bit for me)

 

I know it is all what ifs but, the above requests to be fair are not really bad ones. The main failing is the contribution of money not the resigning / moving to another position. For me it just shows that Lowe / Wilde had no money or intention of putting any money back in to the club

[um pahars]

Nick, your sub editing works a treat, and does look a crap deal from Crouch, but one question for you

 

 

From both boards or just the football one?

 

I'll save you from NickG's handywork

 

His original request in October appears to only require Wilde to resign as Chairman of SFC Ltd, but I assume he keeps his role on that board. There is no mention of his role on the PLC Board so assume Wilde was to remain on that one.

 

The follow up in January requests Wilde to resign as Chaiman and as a Director of SFC Ltd, but once agan no mention of resigning from the PLC Board so assume he stays on the PLC Board.

 

Reading through the original opening gambit and the subsequent lettters, agendas and meetings there certainly was movement from both sides, but ultimately it appears that no deal could be agreed on.

[NickG]

But could they have accepted one of the subsequent offers/revisions?? Think he still was demanding more than was ever going to be accepted and then he stopped negotiations

 

Was there potential to negotiate a deal that was suitable to all concerned and in the best interests of the Club?? there should have been and all are at fault

Given our predicament (and the fact we were two months away from administration) should Lowe and Wilde been more receptive?? after that first offer??!! ideally but never going to happen after that and with their flaws

 

Given our predicament should Crouch have been less bullish and demanding?? yes

 

From the many articles in that piece, then unlike you I take the view that Crouch was willing to put some money in to (a) stave off administration and (b) try and avoid relegation. fair enough but I am not convinced.

And given our predicament then all three of them should have done all they could to try and get a deal done and get some money in to the Club, so when judged against that they all failed to deliver this.

agree

[um pahars]

For me it just shows that Lowe / Wilde had no money or intention of putting any money back in to the club

 

Although there is a line in there in a letter from Seymour Pierce to Crouch that says:

 

"Michael Wilde is able to participate"

 

and I interpreted this as saying Wilde could participate in injecting funds!!!!

[NickG]

OK you may feel that way but what if

 

lowe matched it (Overdraft now sat at £500,000)

Wilde matched it (now in credit to the tune of £1.5m)

Wilde resigns (from the football board and not the plc,which I think is what the deal was)

Crouch becomes chairman (of the football board)

Lowe became PLC chairman but had no involvement with football matters(fat chance lol)

JP was sacked (he went anyway, so wonder what his package was, wouldnt be much

Wotte was sacked his compensation to be paid personally by Lowe and Wilde (only falling dwon bit for me)

 

I know it is all what ifs but, the above requests to be fair are not really bad ones. The main failing is the contribution of money not the resigning / moving to another position. For me it just shows that Lowe / Wilde had no money or intention of putting any money back in to the club

 

also agree, this was never meant to condone their failings!

[Mole]

For me it just shows that Lowe / Wilde had no money or intention of putting any money back in to the club

 

I believe Mike Wilde would've put money in if he could have, but probably wasn't in a position to do so. I also believe that despite his stupid interviews he has many regrets. Lowe on the other hand is selfish and only interested in number one.

[um pahars]

Think he still was demanding more than was ever going to be accepted and then he stopped negotiations

 

 

But surely "demanding more than was ever going to be accepted" has to be judged against the context that two months later it all went to rat sht. As we are finding now, when you're really up against it then beggars can't really be choosers.

 

But at the same time I fully accept that perhaps Crouch needed to wind in his demands and compromise if there was ever going to be a chance of it succeeded.

 

And I'm not sure your interpretation that he stopped negotiations is fair as there is a piece in there about when informed of impending administration he was in contact with Cowen to see if a cash injection could avert it.

[NickG]

think they stopped and later he re-contacted from memory.

 

"demanding more..." talking about more than they would ever accept not necessarily what was reasonable to save the club

[St Marco]

Now i think about it this post is very misleading as two offers where made and what you have said is a mixture of both. Wilde wouldnt of been paying anything if he actually resigned eh ! LOL

 

Have to agree the orgional post was very misleading. If you actually read what the Echo said they said he offered 2 deals. The main point of the deal was Crouch said he would loan the club £2m indefinatly until the club can afford to pay it back when it feels it can. For this £2m to be put into the club Wilde must resign and walk away and Crouch would be re-instated as Football Chairman while Lowe will remain as PLC chairman but have zero influence or power on the football side. The other part was for Jan and Wotte to be fired with them paying them off not the club. Which is fair enough in my book.

 

That was the deal that was offered and was rejected by Lowe and Wilde.

[um pahars]

Have to agree the orgional post was very misleading.

 

Indeed it was.

 

Whilst factually correct, it only reflected the very first letter in the episode and did not reflect any of the subsequent amendments, negotiations or revisions that took plave over a period of three months!!!!!!!

 

The opening post up here in no way reflects the whole article, and has omitted many of the relevant factual parts of the episode as it panned out.

 

Most of the subsequent comment comes from Crouch, so that has to be judged against the premise that that is only his opinion (and therefore may well be biased), but there are still some important parts that NickG never even read before he posted the opening piece up here.

 

As I said in my first posts on this thread, people would do well to read the whole piece for themselves and make their own minds up as NickG's paraphrasing does not do it justice.

 

In effect NickG has managed to paraphrase only the very first column in a five page spread!!!!!!!

[Puddings and Monkeys]

This thread is very much like the behaviour we've seen at the club - the usual suspects squabbling and splitting hairs, each of them entrenched in their own narrow mindset and view of the world, with a lot of hot air being expelled but bugger all progress being made.

[Red and White Army]

Indeed it was.

 

Whilst factually correct, it only reflected the very first letter in the episode and did not reflect any of the subsequent amendments, negotiations or revisions that took plave over a period of three months!!!!!!!

 

It shows the utter contempt that Crouch has for Lowe and Wilde, and how he was prepared to deliberately make them an unacceptable offer, leak it to the press and get their backs up.

 

No wonder they did not feel inclined to discuss anything further when he engaged in despicable behaviour like that. If he hadn't started from an insulting and mocking offer then there might have been a chance of coming to a mutually acceptable solution - but Crouch chose to make a token offer that could not be accepted and leak to the press for his personal benefit.

 

Utterly unacceptable and indefensible, unless your name is dumb pahars.

[NickG]

This thread is very much like the behaviour we've seen at the club - the usual suspects squabbling and splitting hairs, each of them entrenched in their own narrow mindset and view of the world, with a lot of hot air being expelled but bugger all progress being made.

 

exactly, one post, not misleading stating what this offer was - then the desperate nit-picking starts!

[Frank's cousin]

If this administration would have happened under Crouch you would be ripping him to shreds and you know it. I could practically write your "If Lowe was in charge..." ****** myself.

 

Maybe you are partly right there, because I do believe that it could have been avoided had we not went mad spending under Burley - when Crouch was chairman of the football club and should have vetoed this without seeing the colour of Wildes 'investor in the wings' money.

 

Crouch in his most recent spell in charge did try and stem teh tide, but teh damage had already been done following saints 'going wilde' and spending what we did not really have - to which Crouch is partly responsible IMHO.

 

Of course the over riding reason for our mire situation is the prem relegation, but that is ultimately part of sport and any club could struggle especially after 27 years where the whole infrastructure is set up for a far greater revenue stream. I do think that had we kept Lowe throughout we would not be in Admin but most likley have been relegated before to L1 or even L2 as a result of cost cutting - which is better? Well I dont think there is a wrong or right answer to that but right now with the axe hanging over us I know which I would take.

 

That the sort of thing you had in mind? ;-)

[NickG]

It shows the utter contempt that Crouch has for Lowe and Wilde, and how he was prepared to deliberately make them an unacceptable offer, leak it to the press and get their backs up.

 

No wonder they did not feel inclined to discuss anything further when he engaged in despicable behaviour like that. If he hadn't started from an insulting and mocking offer then there might have been a chance of coming to a mutually acceptable solution - but Crouch chose to make a token offer that could not be accepted and leak to the press for his personal benefit.

 

Utterly unacceptable and indefensible, unless your name is dumb pahars.

 

fair.

[St Marco]

It shows the utter contempt that Crouch has for Lowe and Wilde, and how he was prepared to deliberately make them an unacceptable offer, leak it to the press and get their backs up.

 

No wonder they did not feel inclined to discuss anything further when he engaged in despicable behaviour like that. If he hadn't started from an insulting and mocking offer then there might have been a chance of coming to a mutually acceptable solution - but Crouch chose to make a token offer that could not be accepted and leak to the press for his personal benefit.

 

Utterly unacceptable and indefensible, unless your name is dumb pahars.

 

How is it unacceptable?

For the club to get that £2m all that had to happen was Wilde to resign and Jan and Wotte to leave. Crouch and Lowe would be the chairman of the PLC and Football Club.

Considering the club had been in the relegation zone for 5 months and didn't ever looklike getting out of it Wilde's position was un-tenable. He was the football club chairman. Asking for the chairman to resign with those stats under his chairmanship is normal. Remember Wilde said the same thing a month or two before the end of the season last year about Crouch? Difference being Crouch had been Chairman for just 2 months while Wilde has been Chairman for a year.

Even to this day i wonder why Wilde actually returned as he did nothing, offered nothing for the club.

If it was my business and i was on the verge of going under and i knew £2m could save it if i had to quit as chairman i would do it. Because what would staying on achieve? The same applies to the club. If Wilde left we would of had £2m. But he didn't. He thought he was more important then the club using £2m.

[NickG]

the offer was for him to resign, pay £2m for the privilege and personally pay the dismissal pay offs for Wotte and JP.

 

Whether you think that would have been good for the club is irrelevant - Wilde was the one who had to agree and only an idiot would think he would want to do that.

[um pahars]

It shows the utter contempt that Crouch has for Lowe and Wilde, and how he was prepared to deliberately make them an unacceptable offer,

 

I quite agree in that Crouch's initial approach was somewhat akin to a bull in a china shop. Personally, I think he should have been more amenable and concillatory, so you won't find me condoning his opening gambit.

 

leak it to the press and get their backs up.

 

That's strange as I don't remember there being much press about this initial offer back in October, but feel free to post some of the associated press from back then up on here (otherwise you're just hot air - again LOL).

 

No wonder they did not feel inclined to discuss anything further

 

One can only assume that you didn't read the article, nor know anything about the story here, as correspondence and meetings followed for around three months following the initial approach.

 

Methinks it would probably be best for you to keep quiet on this one and instead praise the merits of Poortvliet's stunning footballing nous

[um pahars]

the offer was for him to resign, pay £2m for the privilege and personally pay the dismissal pay offs for Wotte and JP.

 

Get past the first chapter and you will see that Wilde did not have to stump up any money.

 

The revised offer/initiative that followed various correspondence and meetings was for Wilde to simply stand down.

[NickG]

it was in the press

[NickG]

Get past the first chapter and you will see that Wilde did not have to stump up any money.

 

The revised offer/initiative that followed various correspondence and meetings was for Wilde to simply stand down.

 

we are talking about the first chapter!!!

[um pahars]

we are talking about the first chapter!!!

 

Your reply was to St Marco who was clearly outlining the second offer which was for Wilde to step down without investing any monies.

 

HTH

[um pahars]

it was in the press

 

 

Feel free to post anything up here from October/November regarding this.

[NickG]

think I would prefer Crouch to Jackson!

 

leave you to it on this one, bye!

[um pahars]

think I would prefer Crouch to Jackson!

 

leave you to it on this one, bye!

 

 

LOL, so it's fair to say you can't find any press relating to the "first chapter" and realise that the second offer did not expect Wilde to contribute.

 

Glad we cleared that up, now you just need to run along and sharpen up your sub editing skills for your next exclusive LOL.

[NickG]

are you 3?

 

you know it was in the press

[Ponty]

Lot of effort being wasted on this thread.

 

In summary, Crouch's opening gambit was so outrageously unacceptable that further negotiations would be cursory at best.

[Frank's cousin]

Lot of effort being wasted on this thread.

 

In summary, Crouch's opening gambit was so outrageously unacceptable that further negotiations would be cursory at best.

 

LOL - a fair summation I would suggest

[NickG]

lol, totally agree ponty!