I recommend you buy todays Echo

[northam soul]

What is more evident is that we wasted an absolute fortune on Scneiderlin , Gasmi ,Pulis , Smith , Robertson , Peckard and the rest.Now i dont know who signed those players but whoever it was needs to take a massive look in the mirror.

[Wopper]

Rupert Lowe never had a clue how to run a football club.

[eelpie]

What is more evident is that we wasted an absolute fortune on Scneiderlin , Gasmi ,Pulis , Smith , Robertson , Peckard and the rest.Now i dont know who signed those players but whoever it was needs to take a massive look in the mirror.

 

I would really like to know whether Lowe imposed these guys on Portaloo and whether Van de Waals was financially involved. I dare say one day it will come out. Historically it is of some significance.

[Frank's cousin]

Go back to position we were in at the beginning of the season and our only chance of getting out of this mess lies in those youth players, which sadly was not good enough. This was not a one season problem but one that would have extended over many seasons, even with being successful in selling on any natural young talent for a decent wedge. Go back a couple of years to the point Lowe left the first time and you have the option of being able to afford the right blend of senior and youth players, but still needing to sell talent. The senior pro's we could afford have been League 1 material, we never had the luxury of a decent blend. There was little point in wasting money on these senior pro's when there was no improvement over what we already had.

 

In our last season in the Premier, we spent money under Redknapp in the January window that we could not afford, we over extended ourselves. Now you can argue whether that is the right approach or not spend the money, reorganise and try to come back afresh!

 

As normal with the first season down from the Premier, the players just did not adapt and our challenge was all but over by January. We implemented a massive cull of numbers and salary. Wilde takes control and basically reverses that cull and we end up with a bloated, over paid squad which we could not sustain. We never recovered from that start, especially when no attempt was made to seriously address the problem.

 

Throughout all of this I have had one simple message, stop pishing away the family silver, reorganise to our budget and live within our means, developing the youth to a maximum to help our cause. When Lowe came back the second time we were already doomed by the failure to get rid of the salaries of high paid players, let alone receive a fee for them. This is not hindsight, something I clearly stated well before Lowe returned. With Crouch sitting on his hands waiting for Fulthorpe I have no problem with Lowe coming back, at least I knew somone would try and actually address the problem.

 

Lowe got us relegated from the Premier, but look at every other club that has suffered that fate and I can find little exception there. We suffered from virtually a full first team out with injury and at the end of the day that did for us. Everyone backed Redknapp to the hilt in trying to avoid relegation but he got nutmegged by Bryan Robson. Lowe screwed up with SCW, a good idea in the Premier but we could never afford him out of it. Wilde although only there a very short time was the catalyst for everything that subsequently happened, with Crouch ably supporting and adding fuel to the fire. Even after we had inflicted such damage we still had plenty of time and money to avoid our current predicament, but those concerned were more interested in petty squabbles than the club, something that was mirrored in fans.

 

What has happened now uder Lowe is something that was unavoidable because of our financial stupidity over the previous years and the inability for the youth players to save us both on the field and financially by sales. Lowe is partly responsible because of the over spend with SCW, Wilde is responsible for the lions share and Crouch not far behind. For sheer stupidity Crouch has to be king. This is not a recommendation for a Lowe return as I can see little his skill sets add to the issue now, but I will still accept what is best for Saints, even if it is the king of the idiots, Crouch.

 

Reasonably balanced and from my perspective a good thoughtful post, but you run dangerously close to perceived 'luvviedom';-)

 

I think you put rather better than I have how its important to differentiate the emotional and personal thoughts towards Lowe for his errors and try to understand how and why we are where we are - not out of some obsessional need for blame, but to allow us to move forward united and progressively. More 'truth and reconciliation' than 'balme and shame'

[Frank's cousin]

Rupert Lowe never had a clue how to run a football club.

 

NO, Rupert LOwe had his Own ideas about How to run a football club - financially within its means seen as lacking ambition by some - and alternative to the old school standard approach in others - some good, some bad , some with disasterous consequences - the problem in football with such a huge gulf betwen the premiership riches and the rest, is that the consequences of failure are so devastating and its a very fine line between falure and survival...

[SW11_Saint]

It is certainly true that had Pearson stayed and had both the best of the kids AND the established pros to work with all season then I would concede we would most likely have had better results - but, the problem I have is that we can only speculate about the financial impact and the REAL state of affairs that led to the decions of sending these pros out on loan. The two are related, but not the same.

 

UP has always maintained that Pearson WOULD have given us a better shot at survival than JP, or that Pearson could also have worked with the kids arguing that Leicester also had a youngish side... I dont disagree completely, but would still point out that that ASSUMES Pearson would have had those resources to hand. I suspect that Pearson had he stayed would have found himself in charge of the same squad (with teh obviousl few excepetions) as JP and then Wotte. Would he have done any better under those circumstances? Its hard to tell, because it was teh kids naiviety an lack of experience that led to the results.

 

What iI would admit to and I have come round a bit on this is that whatever logic Lowe thought there was in a continental 'Ajax' style youth -reserves-first team continuity set up (a system thatt eventually leads to a conveyour belt of ready made replacements when inevitably the most talented depart for more money...) - and I do think there is merit in that approach for provincial clubs without teh financial resources to buy success or replace top players in the transfer market - there were two major problems with Lowes judgement:

 

1) Timing - at a time when most fans were for the first time in ages feeling good about Pearson and survival, Lowe could have scored a reluctant positive PR goal, by sticking with him and acknowledging the work he had done - afterall Perason is a clam, intelligent and rational bloke - who ironically would probably have worked well with Lowe in that hes not the sort to whinge and moan publically when he does not get his way etc....Instead Lowe scioored a massive own PR goal and fans were againts him and anything he brought in to replace Pearson from teh start - made worse when results indicated 'I told you so'

 

2) Naivity of the CCC - It should not have escaped his notice that we played best against teh better footballing teams - thaose that came on and attacked leaving space for us to play - we still lost more due to inexperienced defending - but played better. Against 80% of the CCC sides however, who when coming to SMS defended in numbers and looked to the break, we simply could not break them down - no surprises as to why we gained more away points than at home.

 

Cue, Alpine to say this uis some sort of Lowe defence.... yawn ... ;-)

All fair comments Frank.

 

Two points to add - If Lowe's vision was to have us become another Ajax, i.e. produce talent and sell some, but also retain some and progress as a club, then great - remember Ajax are still one of the biggest clubs in Europe and are regularly in the Champions League (ok, not next year!). However, I don't believe that was Lowe's vision - imo his was rather to sell the talent as it rolled off the conveyer belt (a la Walcott, Bale) so that we would likely just "tread water" in the CCC. As a fan, I have no real interest in us becoming a "feeder club" for the 'bigger' clubs - the 'bigger' clubs in these days including Fulham, Wigan, Portsmouth, Hull etc. I think it's great to develop our own talent - in fact it's critical - but I think we've been kidding ourselves to think we're the best at doing this. Every club has a youth academy, some with great success (WHU, Middelsboro, Man Utd etc.), but it has to be done in the right way, at the right pace and you have to retain some talent rather than flogging them all when they hit 19/20.

 

As you mention, jettisoning Pearson was a big mistake. I too think that he might well have been able to work with Lowe if given a bit of leeway on who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to farm out - if this decision was taken out of his hands, then his position would clearly be untenable. JP and MW had no idea of the league they were walking in to. You cannot underestimate how valuable that "local knowledge" is - to my mind Pearson was the perfect guy to lead the club, cut from similar cloth to Coyle at Burnely and Irvine at Preston (and look how well they've done on limited resources), as well as being someone who had the fans on his side and had reinstated a bit of a "feelgood" factor.

 

Anyway, all if's but's and maybe's now, but I do hope we are finished with the era or Lowe's experiments. I stick to my view that it isn't that difficult to be successful in the CCC (or hopefully L1) - you just need good organisation, hard graft, a smattering of talent, and a decent goalscorer. Let's hope that is the strategy we'll be working towards with the next board...

[Frank's cousin]

All fair comments Frank.

 

Two points to add - If Lowe's vision was to have us become another Ajax, i.e. produce talent and sell some, but also retain some and progress as a club, then great - remember Ajax are still one of the biggest clubs in Europe and are regularly in the Champions League (ok, not next year!). However, I don't believe that was Lowe's vision - imo his was rather to sell the talent as it rolled off the conveyer belt (a la Walcott, Bale) so that we would likely just "tread water" in the CCC. As a fan, I have no real interest in us becoming a "feeder club" for the 'bigger' clubs - the 'bigger' clubs in these days including Fulham, Wigan, Portsmouth, Hull etc. I think it's great to develop our own talent - in fact it's critical - but I think we've been kidding ourselves to think we're the best at doing this. Every club has a youth academy, some with great success (WHU, Middelsboro, Man Utd etc.), but it has to be done in the right way, at the right pace and you have to retain some talent rather than flogging them all when they hit 19/20.

 

As you mention, jettisoning Pearson was a big mistake. I too think that he might well have been able to work with Lowe if given a bit of leeway on who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to farm out - if this decision was taken out of his hands, then his position would clearly be untenable. JP and MW had no idea of the league they were walking in to. You cannot underestimate how valuable that "local knowledge" is - to my mind Pearson was the perfect guy to lead the club, cut from similar cloth to Coyle at Burnely and Irvine at Preston (and look how well they've done on limited resources), as well as being someone who had the fans on his side and had reinstated a bit of a "feelgood" factor.

 

Anyway, all if's but's and maybe's now, but I do hope we are finished with the era or Lowe's experiments. I stick to my view that it isn't that difficult to be successful in the CCC (or hopefully L1) - you just need good organisation, hard graft, a smattering of talent, and a decent goalscorer. Let's hope that is the strategy we'll be working towards with the next board...

 

Fair points and thanks for the response - I would agree in mmost part with the possible exception of Lowe lacking the will to keep good players and progress. Why do I believe this? In part its possibly his ego, we know how he has always desired to sit at the top table - and in this respect ego can be a positive force as it drives ambition. Ambition? Lowe? surely mutually exclusive? ;-) Well if we equate ambition with spending big in the transfer market or big wages demands then yes, but I dont think this reluctance was due to an unwillingness, but the simple fact he wantedto maintain the ceiling at a level of our income - what he should ahve done is let the manager (if trustworthy) dictate that policy within the max total... trouble was we had so many managers the squad became inflated - However, i would suspect that that situation was not something Lowe would have been exactly ecstatic with himself....

 

I used to live in Oxfordshire - a friend of mine from the village worked for Lowe on and off - generaly property mainteance that sort of thing. He spoke football with Lowe on several occasions. His perspective was one of surprise in that he always assumes Lowe to be ignorant or uninterseted in the game, yet found someone quite passionate about saints. Of particular note was how Lowe said privately how it was one of teh proudest days in his life when he saw the sea of yellow at Cardiff, how he genuinely thought that with a different approach we could build on this - how livid he wa firstly when Hoddle went (finally finding a manager who seemed to be able to progress us without the desperation to spend money we did not have , and second when Strachan did the same - I guess one reason why his approach was an even closer tie to the the pursestrings?

 

Some on here will jump on this very swiftly as some sort of Lowe worship - far from it, as my previous post acknowledges the huge errors of judgement etc, but this was in repsonse to a particular point on which I happily admit I do see the logic in.

 

Pearson - yes I hope he goes on to be a very good manager because wishing him ill just to score points would be churlish and vindictive - he deserves to progress because i admire his attitude and naturally the more successful he is, the greater a blunder it looks as we missed the boat - but surely we have to move on etc.... Who let Scott Macdonald go by the way? ;-)

[um pahars]

UP has always maintained that Pearson WOULD have given us a better shot at survival than JP' date=' or that Pearson could also have worked with the kids arguing that Leicester also had a youngish side... I dont disagree completely, but would still point out that that ASSUMES Pearson would have had those resources to hand. I suspect that Pearson had he stayed would have found himself in charge of the same squad (with teh obviousl few excepetions) as JP and then Wotte. Would he have done any better under those circumstances? Its hard to tell, because it was teh kids naiviety an lack of experience that led to the results.[/quote']

 

Of course it's only my opinion, but I actually think Pearson could have/would have delivered better even if he had exactly the same resources and constraints as Poortvliet. And I also think that that success would have manifested in bigger attendances, a bigger bank balance and a

 

Totally hypothetical and impossible to prove, but I just doubt that Pearson would have been as awful as Poortvliet.

 

The very fact he got the boot suggests he didn't live up to the expectations of Lowe and co.

 

It's nothing personal against Lowe and I'm certainly not suggesting he did it on person, but I personally think you would struggle to find many that would agree with your point of view that the difference between Pearson and Poortvliet would be negligible.

[Frank's cousin]

Of course it's only my opinion, but I actually think Pearson could have/would have delivered better even if he had exactly the same resources and constraints as Poortvliet. And I also think that that success would have manifested in bigger attendances, a bigger bank balance and a

 

Totally hypothetical and impossible to prove, but I just doubt that Pearson would have been as awful as Poortvliet.

 

The very fact he got the boot suggests he didn't live up to the expectations of Lowe and co.

 

It's nothing personal against Lowe and I'm certainly not suggesting he did it on person, but I personally think you would struggle to find many that would agree with your point of view that the difference between Pearson and Poortvliet would be negligible.

 

Those are fair points, but if you had to describe what it was about Pearson that led you to this opinion, what would say were the reasons? I really admired Pearsons public persona - he always came accross as intelligent, focussed and above truthful. He engendered trust and respect by comming across as a man of integrity. Its why even forgetting about NDAs and other such rubbish, I doubt he will sling mud in our direction even if he were allowed to - simply not his style.

 

I do believe JP would have made a great youth coach - the style he was getting them to play was appealing but lacked effectiveness in the 'manly' league, but remain unconvinced as to how Perason would have got these inexperienced kids to do that much better?

[Master Bates]

Today's echo is funneh, Rupert Lowe has written in a letter complaining to the Echo and about Leon Crouch.

 

Here's a wee snippet:

 

Rupert Lowe going to see Forest v Saints - 1 May 2009

 

"Dear Ian,

 

I REFER to the above article which, as is often the case with the Southern Daily Echo, is not only inaccurate, but biased and inflammatory................................"

 

 

Go buy the Echo

[John B]

Those are fair points, but if you had to describe what it was about Pearson that led you to this opinion, what would say were the reasons? I really admired Pearsons public persona - he always came accross as intelligent, focussed and above truthful. He engendered trust and respect by comming across as a man of integrity. Its why even forgetting about NDAs and other such rubbish, I doubt he will sling mud in our direction even if he were allowed to - simply not his style.

 

I do believe JP would have made a great youth coach - the style he was getting them to play was appealing but lacked effectiveness in the 'manly' league, but remain unconvinced as to how Perason would have got these inexperienced kids to do that much better?

 

Surely Pearson is much better off at Leicester perhaps he would have gone anyway even if Lowe offered him a job.

[SaintRobbie]

Today's echo is funneh, Rupert Lowe has written in a letter complaining to the Echo and about Leon Crouch.

 

Here's a wee snippet:

 

Rupert Lowe going to see Forest v Saints - 1 May 2009

 

"Dear Ian,

 

I REFER to the above article which, as is often the case with the Southern Daily Echo, is not only inaccurate, but biased and inflammatory................................"

 

 

Go buy the Echo

 

Link?

[Amesbury Saint]

Today's echo is funneh, Rupert Lowe has written in a letter complaining to the Echo and about Leon Crouch.

 

Here's a wee snippet:

 

Rupert Lowe going to see Forest v Saints - 1 May 2009

 

"Dear Ian,

 

I REFER to the above article which, as is often the case with the Southern Daily Echo, is not only inaccurate, but biased and inflammatory................................"

 

 

Go buy the Echo

 

Cant get the Echo, so tease me a little more please!

[SaintRobbie]

I have to say that having read through the untold stories - its at least refreshing to know that many of us have been right all year. The only posters who seem to want the stories to stop are either those who genuinely want to look forward (respect) or those who look complete prats for supporting Lowe all year.

 

I'm rather enjoying both looking forward AND watching some posters (only a few I hasten to note) squirming.

 

Keep the revelations coming Echo.

[Master Bates]

Link?

 

Buy the Echo, no links yet.

 

Cant get the Echo, so tease me a little more please!

 

I can't, just incase the Echo complain.

[trousers]

Buy the Echo

 

 

Can't buy the Echo here.....do you have a scanner per chance?

[bridge too far]

Can't buy the Echo here.....do you have a scanner per chance?

 

I think it might be in his loft

[Master Bates]

Can't buy the Echo here.....do you have a scanner per chance?

 

Noooo way, i've seen the film!

[trousers]

I can't, just incase the Echo complain.

 

We don't complain when they (allegedly) uplift info from here....(well, actually, we do complain but that's not the point. Or, on second thoughts, perhaps it is indeed the point.)

 

More waffle than Birds Eye Mr Trousers

[Master Bates]

Oh, Rupert Lowe was on £100k for working part time prior to admin.

[trousers]

Oh, Rupert Lowe was on £100k for working part time prior to admin.

 

Per week?

[Master Bates]

Per week?

 

A year, worked 2-3 days a week. That's £40k more than Poortvliet.

 

Hey, i'm good at this maths game!

 

Whoops, cough cough, from todays Echo

[Toadhall Saint]

Oh, Rupert Lowe was on £100k for working part time prior to admin.

 

Out ****ing rageouse! How can that be justified? What was it? 3 days a week?

[trousers]

worked 2-3 days a week

 

 

What was it? 3 days a week?

 

Yes

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I have posted some interesting news as to why there is a delay to being bought on the the Pinnacle 5 year plan thread.

[OldNick]

A year, worked 2-3 days a week. That's £40k more than Poortvliet.

 

Hey, i'm good at this maths game!

 

Whoops, cough cough, from todays Echo

MB where did you get that figure? It says in the Echo that the figures have not been published but AC had stated in december that he was paid 25k for the work.Not 100k

[Master Bates]

MB where did you get that figure? It says in the Echo that the figures have not been published but AC had stated in december that he was paid 25k for the work.Not 100k

 

Back page of the echo, big writing right hand column and one of the inner pages.

 

Clearly says Lowe on £100k then goes on to say for only working part time blaah blaah blaah

[OldNick]

Back page of the echo, big writing right hand column and one of the inner pages.

 

Clearly says Lowe on £100k then goes on to say for only working part time blaah blaah blaah

You and your Echo Mb, I can only get bits from the online site as i now live in the sticks with the hicks. I was quoting form the bit on their website.

If RL really is on 100k for that period i wonder what was going on.I cant see it is defendable under the circumstances but its SFC

[SaintRobbie]

You and your Echo Mb, I can only get bits from the online site as i now live in the sticks with the hicks. I was quoting form the bit on their website.

If RL really is on 100k for that period i wonder what was going on.I cant see it is defendable under the circumstances but its SFC

 

I want to know how much Wotte was on this year, if Lowe was on £100K and Portaloo £60K, I would seriously like to know how much Lowe valued him at.

[trousers]

Does it say how much Kim van der Waals was on?

[SaintRobbie]

Does it say how much Kim van der Waals was on?

 

No. Come on Echo x2 important items we would like to know:

 

Kim and Wotte's wages. How much did they cost us financially as well as in players and pride?

 

 

The reason I want to know Wotte's wages as it will demonstrate exactly who had the lead in this total crap footy debacle. I am guessing Mr Wotte was not on £60K when JP was. Afterall, the idea was Wotte's all along lest we forget his contribution throughout the entire season.

Edited 10 May, 2009 by SaintRobbie

[sadoldgit]

I have to say that having read through the untold stories - its at least refreshing to know that many of us have been right all year. The only posters who seem to want the stories to stop are either those who genuinely want to look forward (respect) or those who look complete prats for supporting Lowe all year.

 

I'm rather enjoying both looking forward AND watching some posters (only a few I hasten to note) squirming.

 

Keep the revelations coming Echo.

 

I don't think that many people "supported" Lowe in the way you suggest. I think many people realised that we were stuffed financially and we going to have to cut our cloth accordingly. I doubt if many people wanted him back, but once back you would like to think that supporters of the club would weant him to succeed, for the sake of the club.

 

I was no lover of Wilde or Crouch but I didn't want them to fail.

 

I would rather have had Lowe here than Wilde ot Crouch but to be honest I really didn't want any of that bunch.

 

Not my choice though so just had to live with it.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens next. If MLT backs the winning team and we don't make the Premiership in 5 years ( as we are told is the plan) will he be vilified too as a failure? If we go down to the 4th Division will people call for his head as they did Lowe's?