I recommend you buy todays Echo

[Alain Perrin]

Didnt Le Tissier score a hat trick for the England reserves,even single handedly taking on the defence before banging the ball into the back of the net,yet Hoddle still didnt pick him for the England first team?

Seems to me he either didnt know as much about football as he thought he did,or he was petty and vindictive.

Either way im glad he didnt come back.

 

Yes, I was at Loftus Rd that night, as were a large contingent of Saints.

 

Le Tis was on top form. I was as gutted as the next Saints fan when Hoddle didn't take him, but it was difficult to see how MLT could play the same role at international level as at Saints without restructuring the entire team. I'm not sure Hoddle wanted to do that a few weeks before the tournament.

 

I was on the phone to my girlfriend that night telling her how to record Skysports when his third? (the mazy dribble) went in. I nearly busted her eardrum. Great night.

 

Please Hod, Pick Le God.

 

But.... as this was BEFORE Hoddle first came to Saints, not picking Le Tis is a difficult stick to beat him with. Regardless of the trial, Dave Jones had lost the faith of the fans and I think RL would have got rid of him soonish (with fan support).

 

The trial just hastened it by a few games. My recollection is that Hoddle was a surprise but generally welcomed replacement.

[sotonist]

Part of me agrees with Ponty though, I'm not sure what we will gain at the end of it. Different times, different league, different owners, different players, different fans.

 

We've had a massive turnover of players, coaches, and directors, but all the while the weaknesses of the team have been fairly consistent.

 

I think we need the stadium unjinxed again.

[Frank's cousin]

NOt sure there is anything really new here... we knew Pearson wanted to stay - we knew fans would have been solidly behind it, We knew Lowe and Wilde had a plan for continental set upbefore our safety under pearson was confirmed, he madehis decison and he has to live with it.

 

We DONT know, what the squad would have been like had Pearson stayed - we Dont know what results would have been achieved had the Pearson the same resources as JP... we can guess and speculate, but thats all it is - Would we have still been in admin? We dont know but financially it looked bleak without cost cutting.... Crouch and Pearson a and 3 year plan? Which was? and how was it to be funded? If they want to rake this around fair play, but surely they should provide details - otherwise its just **** in teh wind....

 

So what now? Thats the question we shjoudl be more concerned about surely?

[solentstars]

You call it bile,but most on here would call it truth.

 

oh dear "are you one of the usual suspects then"

[alpine_saint]

NOt sure there is anything really new here... we knew Pearson wanted to stay - we knew fans would have been solidly behind it, We knew Lowe and Wilde had a plan for continental set upbefore our safety under pearson was confirmed, he madehis decison and he has to live with it.

 

We DONT know, what the squad would have been like had Pearson stayed - we Dont know what results would have been achieved had the Pearson the same resources as JP... we can guess and speculate, but thats all it is - Would we have still been in admin? We dont know but financially it looked bleak without cost cutting.... Crouch and Pearson a and 3 year plan? Which was? and how was it to be funded? If they want to rake this around fair play, but surely they should provide details - otherwise its just **** in teh wind....

 

So what now? Thats the question we shjoudl be more concerned about surely?

 

 

A thoroughly predictable post...

[Frank's cousin]

A thoroughly predictable post...

 

What beautiful irony....

[Gingeletiss]

A lot of people forget the way Hoddle treated Matt Le Tissier.

 

Hoddle tried to sign him when he was Chelsea boss and because Le Tissier turned him down he shunned him when he was England manager. That's the type of person Hoddle is and why i'll always despise the man with a passion.

 

+1...........I agree

[Ponty]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Hoddle either.... Although, what that has got to do with anything happening at the club now is beyond me.

[Gingeletiss]

Today..

 

Of all the Directors associated with Saints in recent years...............IT IS RUPERT LOWE who has earnt the most money.........

 

I question the earnt part IMHO.

 

Interesting to read about pension contributions paid by the club/PLC!!....looks like the club could be paying Stupert for many years to come....

Edited 6 May, 2009 by Gingeletiss

[eelpie]

Today..

 

Of all the Directors associated with Saints in recent years...............IT IS RUPERT LOWE who has earnt the most money.........I question the earnt part IMHO.

 

If Lowe had turned SLH into a profitable company as a separate business in it's own right (as he claimed to the FL it was) it could be said that he was earning his wages. But he failed at that. Whatever happened to his retirement homes business that he supposedly owned at the time of the reverse takeover? Did it even exist? Why did SLH not trade profitably outside SFC operations? This was Lowe's cataclysmic failure imo. That company should have been making enough dosh to be able to finance players, for example, like other successful holding companies have done for their clubs. Instead, it sucked money out of the football club to pay Lowe and his cronies monies they did not deserve.

 

There is a need for a searching inquiry into what happened to SLH's business plan imo.

[mulletsaint]

A thoroughly predictable post...

 

Pretty spot on and unbiased tho.

[Frank's cousin]

Pretty spot on and unbiased tho.

 

I am just confused as to HOW Mr Alpine sees, what he does in certain posters posts - eg he has made his mind up about you so ignores what you actually say, and just ASSUMES it must contain the luvvie rhetoric - just wish I did not get so wound up about it ;-)

[OldNick]

The two most interesting things that came out of The Echo's stuff tonight were:

 

a) The salary comparisons of Burley, Pearson and Poortvliet. I'm all up for saving money but spending £60,000 on your manager (actually head Coahc) is somewhat asking for trouble. And if you're on that much then I'm not sure I believe that he paid the Helmond compo!!!!!!!

 

That had to be one hell of a false economy.

 

b) The other interesting fact was that Crouch had managed to get Norwich Union to agree to some sort of holiday/derferral of the stadium "loan" costs bring it down from £2.4m per year to £1m per year.

Um did it say the holiday was implimented by LC or did they not agree to go through with it.I assume there would be fees to set that up.

As for the manager wages it does show A) false economy but did indeed show that it was done to cut costs and the team would have been a lot cheaper financially to have in place. Yes it may well have been a stupid route but at that stage we had to do something it seems.In the end it was fruitless as it failed but if we had won a few more home games to go with the away form it would have been a masterstroke.

Keeping NP would have been the preferred route but if things were so dire we had to have a 60k manager I odubt we would have made it to November before admin.

[OldNick]

Today..

 

Of all the Directors associated with Saints in recent years...............IT IS RUPERT LOWE who has earnt the most money.........

 

I question the earnt part IMHO.

 

Interesting to read about pension contributions paid by the club/PLC!!....looks like the club could be paying Stupert for many years to come....

Do you think he has earnt more than Askham? I expect te directors who sold their shares earnt a fair amount as well and they did not spend their whole business day working at the club.

Bring on some new people so the nightmare of all the past goons who have been custodians can be forgotten

[ottery st mary]

I am just confused as to HOW Mr Alpine sees' date=' what he does in certain posters posts - eg he has made his mind up about you so ignores what you actually say, and just ASSUMES it must contain the luvvie rhetoric - just wish I did not get so wound up about it ;-)[/quote']

 

Please do not worry Frank it happens all the time in our little world.....

 

Us Luvvies are just not thick skinned enough to deal with some of the big hitters in the world....Boy are there some big hitters on this forum:smt075

 

My advice is keep taking the medication....London Pride:heart:

 

Treat the whole thing as a game;) of two halves and all that;)

 

I am sure Alps Luvs you really.:heart:

[Daren W]

TBH, the mud-slinging has all got very boring. I'm far more concerned with the future than with the past.

 

Point taken but whilst there is an element of CSI Southampton about all of this, if you don't learn from the past you're doomed to make the same mistakes in the future.

And besides which the truth is something that's been hidden from the fans for far too long, we deserve to know just why we're in the state we're in today...

[PAULACZT]

Um did it say the holiday was implimented by LC or did they not agree to go through with it.I assume there would be fees to set that up.

As for the manager wages it does show A) false economy but did indeed show that it was done to cut costs and the team would have been a lot cheaper financially to have in place. Yes it may well have been a stupid route but at that stage we had to do something it seems.In the end it was fruitless as it failed but if we had won a few more home games to go with the away form it would have been a masterstroke.

Keeping NP would have been the preferred route but if things were so dire we had to have a 60k manager I odubt we would have made it to November before admin.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but we appointed 3 'coaches' in total...Portvliet, Wotte and Gorre...what were they paid in total? We already had Hockaday (Stuperts golden boy for a while) and Henderson. He then proceeded to use the 'gardening leave' management tactic, which means we keep paying the staff who no longer work for the cause. Nick, your use of the word 'masterstroke' in relation to the ideas of one Stupert Lowe, maybe the only time anybody gets to see it connected to him in footballing terms!!

[alpine_saint]

Pretty spot on and unbiased tho.

 

No, its a load of rubbish on two counts.

 

Not only does it try to absolve Lowe by saying nobody could have done better, it is also trying to say that Crouch would have taken us to admin sooner, for which there is absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.

[OldNick]

Correct me if I am wrong but we appointed 3 'coaches' in total...Portvliet, Wotte and Gorre...what were they paid in total? We already had Hockaday (Stuperts golden boy for a while) and Henderson. He then proceeded to use the 'gardening leave' management tactic, which means we keep paying the staff who no longer work for the cause. Nick, your use of the word 'masterstroke' in relation to the ideas of one Stupert Lowe, maybe the only time anybody gets to see it connected to him in footballing terms!!

If it is correct that NP was on 300k and Jan on 60k I doubt Gorre or Wotte would have been on more. Webster was on larger wages and was still on a contract that had been awarded by whom Im not sure. NP would not have run the whole ship, or perhaps you think he would have. if not he would have had a string of coaches and so I doubt they would have been on less than Jan and co.So NP package of wages would be far more than Jans.

As for a masterstroke, had it come off it would have been. It was only our home form that did for us.

I dont know the financial state the club was in when RL was called back, but there was a leaked e-mail on here telling us about MW's concerns at the state of them.Had he not come back we could well have been in admin oct-nov last year, just when the world was in meltdown and even harder than now to get an investor. That is just luck not down to LC LM or anybody else who would have been at the club if RL had not come back.

For any business that had got its overdraft down from 6.3m to 5m then told to go down to 4m only for then to pull the plug on is really tough and I wonder quite why? If it had happened to any of the other men in charge i would be be just as dismayed for it to happen and I felt it was totally destructive. If most of the people on here had been told to repay a third of their mortgage in 9months did so and still be evicted they would find it unfair and wrong.That to a degree is what happened to us, and none of us whoevers side of the fence we are on are winners.

I would like to know the exact timing and influence brought it on.Considering we could have done so the week before without the penalty next season i find it bemusing and shows RL had no warning of it IMO

[ottery st mary]

Correct me if I am wrong but we appointed 3 'coaches' in total...Portvliet, Wotte and Gorre...what were they paid in total? We already had Hockaday (Stuperts golden boy for a while) and Henderson. He then proceeded to use the 'gardening leave' management tactic, which means we keep paying the staff who no longer work for the cause. Nick, your use of the word 'masterstroke' in relation to the ideas of one Stupert Lowe, maybe the only time anybody gets to see it connected to him in footballing terms!!

 

Not forgetting Kim The Whale who was on top wages for his advisory and agents work for Rupert...Total outlay:rolleyes:

[Frank's cousin]

Please do not worry Frank it happens all the time in our little world.....

 

Us Luvvies are just not thick skinned enough to deal with some of the big hitters in the world....Boy are there some big hitters on this forum:smt075

 

My advice is keep taking the medication....London Pride:heart:

 

Treat the whole thing as a game;) of two halves and all that;)

 

I am sure Alps Luvs you really.:heart:

 

It is the thought of Alps Love, that is most worrying, ;-)

[Frank's cousin]

No, its a load of rubbish on two counts.

 

Not only does it try to absolve Lowe by saying nobody could have done better, it is also trying to say that Crouch would have taken us to admin sooner, for which there is absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.

 

LOL, how on earth you read these things into posts is beyond me - you need newe glasses or stop drinking that potent pilsner with naked Austrian monks....

[SW11_Saint]

Interesting stuff, Nigel Pearson wanted to stay and would have taken a salary drop.

As we suspected - come out come out wherever you are Jonah, 19Canteen/Guided Missile etc.

 

Poortvliet was only on £60,000 a year (seven times less than George Burley), less than some of the players.

You pay peanuts...

 

Leon Crouch & Pearson had a 3 year plan and more.

So why did Wilde just stand by and let Lowe implement his "revolutionary plan"...

 

They guy is a jerk of the highest order, and spineless to boot.

[up and away]

If it is correct that NP was on 300k and Jan on 60k I doubt Gorre or Wotte would have been on more. Webster was on larger wages and was still on a contract that had been awarded by whom Im not sure. NP would not have run the whole ship, or perhaps you think he would have. if not he would have had a string of coaches and so I doubt they would have been on less than Jan and co.So NP package of wages would be far more than Jans.

As for a masterstroke, had it come off it would have been. It was only our home form that did for us.

I dont know the financial state the club was in when RL was called back, but there was a leaked e-mail on here telling us about MW's concerns at the state of them.Had he not come back we could well have been in admin oct-nov last year, just when the world was in meltdown and even harder than now to get an investor. That is just luck not down to LC LM or anybody else who would have been at the club if RL had not come back.

For any business that had got its overdraft down from 6.3m to 5m then told to go down to 4m only for then to pull the plug on is really tough and I wonder quite why? If it had happened to any of the other men in charge i would be be just as dismayed for it to happen and I felt it was totally destructive. If most of the people on here had been told to repay a third of their mortgage in 9months did so and still be evicted they would find it unfair and wrong.That to a degree is what happened to us, and none of us whoevers side of the fence we are on are winners.

I would like to know the exact timing and influence brought it on.Considering we could have done so the week before without the penalty next season i find it bemusing and shows RL had no warning of it IMO

 

Pearson had a bonus for keeping us up, but salary was not the deciding factor I am sure. Salary was only mentioned as a complimentary factor, never the deciding factor. The facts are we went into administration because of financial stupidity, yet this gets over looked. Financial mismanagement brought us to our knees, which would have happened either this or next season.

[Frank's cousin]

 

So why did Wilde just stand by and let Lowe implement his "revolutionary plan"...

 

They guy is a jerk of the highest order, and spineless to boot.

 

Simple leaverage - Wilde wanted back in - a control thing so needed Lowe - Wilde will not really have been interested in the Manager choice as long as he was back on the board - LOwe would have convinced him it was the way to go......

 

 

I think those saying the JP/Wotte youth thing was because they were cheaper than Pearson, may be right, but I think Pearson was never going to get the job even had he volunteered to do it for free.. the conspiracy theorists will have this down as some sort of LOwe vendetta as Pearson was a crouch appointee, but from what Wilde said April last year, when thinking about getting back into bed with Lowe it was clear Lowe had been harbouring the dutch/youth set up for some time - probably since his Ajax visits in the early 2000's....

[SW11_Saint]

Simple leaverage - Wilde wanted back in - a control thing so needed Lowe - Wilde will not really have been interested in the Manager choice as long as he was back on the board - LOwe would have convinced him it was the way to go......

 

 

I think those saying the JP/Wotte youth thing was because they were cheaper than Pearson, may be right, but I think Pearson was never going to get the job even had he volunteered to do it for free.. the conspiracy theorists will have this down as some sort of LOwe vendetta as Pearson was a crouch appointee, but from what Wilde said April last year, when thinking about getting back into bed with Lowe it was clear Lowe had been harbouring the dutch/youth set up for some time - probably since his Ajax visits in the early 2000's....

And therein lies the true folly - thinking that that type of system could work in a "cloggers league" (with kids!). You couuldn't make it up, you really couldn't...

[Gingeletiss]

Do you think he has earnt more than Askham? I expect te directors who sold their shares earnt a fair amount as well and they did not spend their whole business day working at the club.

Bring on some new people so the nightmare of all the past goons who have been custodians can be forgotten

 

Get an Echo nick............that is what it has reported. They're either right or wrong, but I'm sure being pretendie ITK, that you will offer up an alternative theory.

[Frank's cousin]

And therein lies the true folly - thinking that that type of system could work in a "cloggers league" (with kids!). You couuldn't make it up, you really couldn't...

 

Thats probably the biggest of Lowe's mistakes to be honest - not the concept, but thethought it would work in the CCC. Think he had visions of us being the Arsenal of the Championship and walking this league .... As more of a fan of the purist approach, I can not fault the desire to see home grown kids come through playing attacking passing football but as many have said, the evidence for the folly is in the results.... its sad in more than one way, because I would hate to see us end up doing the opposite extreme with hit and hope hoofball to old journeymen pros on a last earner and the decline of the academy...

[OldNick]

Get an Echo nick............that is what it has reported. They're either right or wrong, but I'm sure being pretendie ITK, that you will offer up an alternative theory.

CEO or shareholder who would you expect to get the most money over a 12 year period? I personally have said that I want them all gone and never set foot in the boardroom again. It will be interesting to see how fans view the new people if they indeed take dividends.

Lets move on to a better future, but i still am happy for you to be my stalker it keeps me on my toes

[mulletsaint]

No, its a load of rubbish on two counts.

 

Not only does it try to absolve Lowe by saying nobody could have done better, it is also trying to say that Crouch would have taken us to admin sooner, for which there is absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.

 

I suggest you re-read the post mate, it's pretty balanced. Takes some pretty serious twisting to end up reading the way you imply.

 

The only evidence that we have as to what has happened to us since the FA Cup Final, are the financial reports that have been published, along with the predicament that we now find ourselves in. We know that Lowe was in charge for the majority of that time and thus a huge proportion of the blame lies at his door.

 

However, speculation and hearsay from "moles" on here will never be enough for me to believe that he is solely to blame. The full truth will never come out because each camp will have a different story.

 

We need to cut out every little bit of cancer that has infected our club. Sticking our head in the sand and just blaming one person will not achieve this.

[SW11_Saint]

Thats probably the biggest of Lowe's mistakes to be honest - not the concept' date=' but thethought it would work in the CCC. Think he had visions of us being the Arsenal of the Championship and walking this league .... As more of a fan of the purist approach, I can not fault the desire to see home grown kids come through playing attacking passing football but as many have said, the evidence for the folly is in the results.... its sad in more than one way, because I would hate to see us end up doing the opposite extreme with hit and hope hoofball to old journeymen pros on a last earner and the decline of the academy...[/quote']

Agreed - you have to find a balance, and that is where we went wrong. I am convinced that Pearson could have worked with the most promising of the academy graduates and gelled them successfully with a backbone of our more experienced pro's. I can never be proved right, but if we had done that I am sure we'd be comfortably mid-table now, and quite possibly have avoided administration.

 

Time to put those mistakes in the past and hopfully move forward with a more realistic, sensible approach/board.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by SW11_Saint And therein lies the true folly - thinking that that type of system could work in a "cloggers league" (with kids!). You couuldn't make it up, you really couldn't...

 

Thats probably the biggest of Lowe's mistakes to be honest - not the concept, but thethought it would work in the CCC. Think he had visions of us being the Arsenal of the Championship and walking this league .... As more of a fan of the purist approach, I can not fault the desire to see home grown kids come through playing attacking passing football but as many have said, the evidence for the folly is in the results.... its sad in more than one way, because I would hate to see us end up doing the opposite extreme with hit and hope hoofball to old journeymen pros on a last earner and the decline of the academy...

 

Go back to position we were in at the beginning of the season and our only chance of getting out of this mess lies in those youth players, which sadly was not good enough. This was not a one season problem but one that would have extended over many seasons, even with being successful in selling on any natural young talent for a decent wedge. Go back a couple of years to the point Lowe left the first time and you have the option of being able to afford the right blend of senior and youth players, but still needing to sell talent. The senior pro's we could afford have been League 1 material, we never had the luxury of a decent blend. There was little point in wasting money on these senior pro's when there was no improvement over what we already had.

 

In our last season in the Premier, we spent money under Redknapp in the January window that we could not afford, we over extended ourselves. Now you can argue whether that is the right approach or not spend the money, reorganise and try to come back afresh!

 

As normal with the first season down from the Premier, the players just did not adapt and our challenge was all but over by January. We implemented a massive cull of numbers and salary. Wilde takes control and basically reverses that cull and we end up with a bloated, over paid squad which we could not sustain. We never recovered from that start, especially when no attempt was made to seriously address the problem.

 

Throughout all of this I have had one simple message, stop pishing away the family silver, reorganise to our budget and live within our means, developing the youth to a maximum to help our cause. When Lowe came back the second time we were already doomed by the failure to get rid of the salaries of high paid players, let alone receive a fee for them. This is not hindsight, something I clearly stated well before Lowe returned. With Crouch sitting on his hands waiting for Fulthorpe I have no problem with Lowe coming back, at least I knew somone would try and actually address the problem.

 

Lowe got us relegated from the Premier, but look at every other club that has suffered that fate and I can find little exception there. We suffered from virtually a full first team out with injury and at the end of the day that did for us. Everyone backed Redknapp to the hilt in trying to avoid relegation but he got nutmegged by Bryan Robson. Lowe screwed up with SCW, a good idea in the Premier but we could never afford him out of it. Wilde although only there a very short time was the catalyst for everything that subsequently happened, with Crouch ably supporting and adding fuel to the fire. Even after we had inflicted such damage we still had plenty of time and money to avoid our current predicament, but those concerned were more interested in petty squabbles than the club, something that was mirrored in fans.

 

What has happened now uder Lowe is something that was unavoidable because of our financial stupidity over the previous years and the inability for the youth players to save us both on the field and financially by sales. Lowe is partly responsible because of the over spend with SCW, Wilde is responsible for the lions share and Crouch not far behind. For sheer stupidity Crouch has to be king. This is not a recommendation for a Lowe return as I can see little his skill sets add to the issue now, but I will still accept what is best for Saints, even if it is the king of the idiots, Crouch.

[um pahars]

Keeping NP would have been the preferred route but if things were so dire we had to have a 60k manager I odubt we would have made it to November before admin.

 

If things were that dire then why did we spend what precious little money we had on a speculative punt on a French youngster???

 

The manager is far and away the most important person at any club and by going for the cheap option we practically gave ourselves no chance whatsoever.

 

Given that everything at a football club is generally driven by the appointment and performance of the manager then it has to be the most foolhardy of false economies that we ever done.

[um pahars]

As for a masterstroke, had it come off it would have been. It was only our home form that did for us.

 

Come on nickh, we ended up going down by effectively 7 points!!!!!

 

You can argue it was only our home form, you can argue it was some missed penalties, poor refereeing decisions, injuries etc etc etc but the fact of the matter is that over 46 matches we fully deserved to go down.

 

Had he not come back we could well have been in admin oct-nov last year, just when the world was in meltdown and even harder than now to get an investor. That is just luck not down to LC LM or anybody else who would have been at the club if RL had not come back..

 

And why would we have been in admin by Oct-Nov last year????

 

You could easily argue (and I actually think it would be a much more valid position) that had we stuck with Pearson then we might have had more success on the pitch, more fans in the stands and more ££££'s on the bank.

 

With each 2,000 fans equating to approx £1m per annum, it is eminently possible that we could have avoided administration had pearson been kept in charge.

 

We had to wait until something like February for our second win this season

[OldNick]

Come on nickh, we ended up going down by effectively 7 points!!!!!

 

You can argue it was only our home form, you can argue it was some missed penalties, poor refereeing decisions, injuries etc etc etc but the fact of the matter is that over 46 matches we fully deserved to go down.

 

 

 

And why would we have been in admin by Oct-Nov last year????

 

You could easily argue (and I actually think it would be a much more valid position) that had we stuck with Pearson then we might have had more success on the pitch, more fans in the stands and more ££££'s on the bank.

 

With each 2,000 fans equating to approx £1m per annum, it is eminently possible that we could have avoided administration had pearson been kept in charge.

 

We had to wait until something like February for our second win this season[/QUOTe] Of course had NP stayed under RL and the savage cuts taken then perhaps you are right.I took it as NP and LC , in that case I do not see the costs cut enough to stop us going intro admin before.As for Morgan yes the 500k was perhaps not used to its best but he was touted as going to be a top player that we fended off competition for.We obviously dont know the truth in that.Again had the bank not cut us away after getting down to 4m overdraft i dont thiink Morgan would be a worry.

I assume you mean we didnt win our 2nd HOME game until feb. The home form was the monkey on our back and realisitically wiinning a couple more at home especially Forest etc would have made a massive difference.There were plenty of games where we just couldnt score the 2nd goal(Jans big mistake of not playing 2 up front) hurt us.

I was talkimng to a Bournemouth fan today and he was bemoaning the fact that on the last game of the season they gota full house but where were they when they had Morecombe home when things were not so rosy, and also if they played Man u and got a sell out there would be thousands of fans phoning Radio Solent saying I have been going for decades never missed a game and cant get a ticket.Does that not resound with our fanbase as well.I doubt the crowds would have been that much better wit hlow quality opposition and doing not well.

[um pahars]

Of course had NP stayed under RL and the savage cuts taken then perhaps you are right.I took it as NP and LC , in that case I do not see the costs cut enough to stop us going intro admin before.

 

I also therefore struggle to understand why you think NP & LC would have gotten us into admin before. I'm convinced NP would have achieved more success on the pitch and therefore delivered better attendances and ££££'s on the bank.

 

Crouch also showed he was up for cutting costs, not least by managing to knock circa £1.5m off of our interest payments!!!!

 

As for Morgan yes the 500k was perhaps not used to its best but he was touted as going to be a top player that we fended off competition for.We obviously dont know the truth in that.Again had the bank not cut us away after getting down to 4m overdraft i dont thiink Morgan would be a worry..

 

It was a ridiculous decision which showed just why we went so wrong last season. A speculative punt, whilst we scrimped and saved on a manager!!!

 

We had choices, we just got our priorities wrong if we felt we should only spend £60k to bring in an untried, untested, inexperienced and sht manager (Head Coach) whilst blow ££££'s on an untried and untested French youngster.

 

Does that not resound with our fanbase as well.I doubt the crowds would have been that much better wit hlow quality opposition and doing not well.

 

I'm not claiming they would have been in the 25,000+ region, but I would suggest more success at home, more empathy with Pearson and his team and the continuation of last season's upbeat finish could have put 2,000 to 4,000 on our average gate (putting £1m to £2m in the coffers).

[OldNick]

I also therefore struggle to understand why you think NP & LC would have gotten us into admin before. I'm convinced NP would have achieved more success on the pitch and therefore delivered better attendances and ££££'s on the bank.

 

Crouch also showed he was up for cutting costs, not least by managing to knock circa £1.5m off of our interest payments!!!!

 

 

 

It was a ridiculous decision which showed just why we went so wrong last season. A speculative punt, whilst we scrimped and saved on a manager!!!

 

We had choices, we just got our priorities wrong if we felt we should only spend £60k to bring in an untried, untested, inexperienced and sht manager (Head Coach) whilst blow ££££'s on an untried and untested French youngster.

 

 

 

I'm not claiming they would have been in the 25,000+ region, but I would suggest more success at home, more empathy with Pearson and his team and the continuation of last season's upbeat finish could have put 2,000 to 4,000 on our average gate (putting £1m to £2m in the coffers).

Im not disagreeing UMp just I haven't the same confidence that you have that LC would have taken the really hard decisions.

[um pahars]

Im not disagreeing UMp just I haven't the same confidence that you have that LC would have taken the really hard decisions.

 

Well he must have some decent negotiating skills to get a deferral/holiday on the stadium "loan" something Lowe, Wilde and Hone all failed to do.

 

He's also not stupid in realising that ultimately Barclay's and Aviva had to be kept on side and that he would have to do everything necessary tp avoid administration.

 

In fact, I would probably argue that he would have hated to have gone into administration under his watch more than Wilde and Lowe given his "support" of the Club and his status in the local community.

[eelpie]

Well he must have some decent negotiating skills to get a deferral/holiday on the stadium "loan" something Lowe, Wilde and Hone all failed to do.

 

He's also not stupid in realising that ultimately Barclay's and Aviva had to be kept on side and that he would have to do everything necessary tp avoid administration.

 

In fact, I would probably argue that he would have hated to have gone into administration under his watch more than Wilde and Lowe given his "support" of the Club and his status in the local community.

 

I think it was simply down to Stupert's personality in the end. I reckon someone at Barclay's finally just got fed up with his arrogant attitude. Whereas Crouch has more person to person skills. It does actually count for a lot when you are dealing with difficult situations.

[OldNick]

Well he must have some decent negotiating skills to get a deferral/holiday on the stadium "loan" something Lowe, Wilde and Hone all failed to do.

 

He's also not stupid in realising that ultimately Barclay's and Aviva had to be kept on side and that he would have to do everything necessary tp avoid administration.

 

In fact, I would probably argue that he would have hated to have gone into administration under his watch more than Wilde and Lowe given his "support" of the Club and his status in the local community.

again you have a confidence I dont have. I asked earlier did we take the holiday up.If so it is impossible to say that nobody else would have negotiated it. I also suggest there is a arrangement fee to do so. I may also add when RL left we were in our first season down and at that stage we were managing to get by. I assume we needed the holiday due to the reckless overspending by the people who took the club on at that stage.

I have no faith left in any of them by the way

[Legod Third Coming]

I cannot conceive that there are people who believe that Lowe's mad Dutch experiment was the only option this season. Are people really that barmy?

 

What about the other 91 clubs who operate on the basis of appointing a manager (shock horror sometimes with expertise and experience of English football) and allowing him to work within whatever budget constraints there are?

 

But no, the only solution was to pay the single most important person at the club 60k - about, what, 10k more than the bloke who runs the fecking ticket office?? (No disrespect Dave).

 

What total boll0x - no worse - complete insanity. The kind that should result in being committed.

[um pahars]

again you have a confidence I dont have.

 

I'm not overly confident of Crouch being in the hot seat, I was merely countering why you thought we would have gone into administration even quicker had Lowe not returned and you have provided nothing substantial to back that claim up.

 

I asked earlier did we take the holiday up.If so it is impossible to say that nobody else would have negotiated it. I also suggest there is a arrangement fee to do so.

 

Of course we'd have taken it up!!! £1.5m saving per annum is massive given our situation (particularly in the short term).

 

We should have been looking to renegotiate this deal the minute we were relegated. It has been there for renegotiation since 2005, but it appears that only Crouch managed to pull it off, so he deserves the plaudits for that as opposed to your rather blase attitude here.

 

I may also add when RL left we were in our first season down and at that stage we were managing to get by. I assume we needed the holiday due to the reckless overspending by the people who took the club on at that stage.

 

And we would have managed to get by even better with £1.5m off the cashflow in the short term.

[um pahars]

But no, the only solution was to pay the single most important person at the club 60k - about, what, 10k more than the bloke who runs the fecking ticket office?? (No disrespect Dave).

 

Looking at it that way, it certainly puts it into perspective what we thought our priorities were!!!!!!!

 

The cost of everything and the value of nothing has probably never been more apt.:mad:

[OldNick]

I'm not overly confident of Crouch being in the hot seat, I was merely countering why you thought we would have gone into administration even quicker had Lowe not returned and you have provided nothing substantial to back that claim up.

 

 

 

Of course we'd have taken it up!!! £1.5m saving per annum is massive given our situation (particularly in the short term).

 

We should have been looking to renegotiate this deal the minute we were relegated. It has been there for renegotiation since 2005, but it appears that only Crouch managed to pull it off, so he deserves the plaudits for that as opposed to your rather blase attitude here.

 

 

 

And we would have managed to get by even better with £1.5m off the cashflow in the short term.

Did it say how long the holiday was for?

The renegotiation for it was from 2005 why was that then? i would have thought the bank saw we had more assetts at that time and probably wouldnt have been interested at that stage. To go to aviva with cap in hand may well have made them nervous it may not have been the besst thing to do until it was obvious we were in financial difficulties.

LC did well to get that agreed but I still dont have the faith in him you do.He was too keen to appease fans.

[Doctoroncall]

Looking at it that way, it certainly puts it into perspective what we thought our priorities were!!!!!!!

 

The cost of everything and the value of nothing has probably never been more apt.:mad:

 

If we had stayed in the Championship, we could have expected £2.9m revenue from the new television deal which starts at the beginning of next season, whilst we can expect a few hundred thousand pounds in League 1

[um pahars]

Did it say how long the holiday was for?

The renegotiation for it was from 2005 why was that then?

 

A three year deferral which would have had a big impact on cashflow.

 

i would have thought the bank saw we had more assetts at that time and probably wouldnt have been interested at that stage.

 

LMFAO nickh. We received £16m in player sales in our first season down and still lost cash out the door!!!!

 

Upon losing £20m from the top line should have meant we were interested in finding any cash savings. We should have been doing all we could to renegotiate this loan. Lowe & Hone failed to get Aviva to buy into this, but Crouch did.

 

Circumstances may have changed year on year, but you can't deny that Crouch did the deal, saved us a decent wedge and therefore showed he was willing and able to deliver cost savings.

 

To go to aviva with cap in hand may well have made them nervous it may not have been the besst thing to do until it was obvious we were in financial difficulties.

 

Aviva aren't some hicks from Norfolk who have no idea how businesses work. They have links throughout football and they are acutely aware of the financial problems that befall clubs that fall out of the Premiership. They experienced it first hand with Ipswich for instance. Your line here does not stand up to even the briefest of scrutiny.

[Saint Fan CaM]

In our last season in the Premier, we spent money under Redknapp in the January window that we could not afford, we over extended ourselves.

 

As normal with the first season down from the Premier, the players just did not adapt and our challenge was all but over by January. We implemented a massive cull of numbers and salary. Wilde takes control and basically reverses that cull and we end up with a bloated, over paid squad which we could not sustain. We never recovered from that start, especially when no attempt was made to seriously address the problem.

 

Lowe got us relegated from the Premier, but look at every other club that has suffered that fate and I can find little exception there. We suffered from virtually a full first team out with injury and at the end of the day that did for us. Everyone backed Redknapp to the hilt in trying to avoid relegation but he got nutmegged by Bryan Robson. Lowe screwed up with SCW, a good idea in the Premier but we could never afford him out of it. Wilde although only there a very short time was the catalyst for everything that subsequently happened, with Crouch ably supporting and adding fuel to the fire. Even after we had inflicted such damage we still had plenty of time and money to avoid our current predicament, but those concerned were more interested in petty squabbles than the club, something that was mirrored in fans.

 

What has happened now uder Lowe is something that was unavoidable because of our financial stupidity over the previous years and the inability for the youth players to save us both on the field and financially by sales. Lowe is partly responsible because of the over spend with SCW, Wilde is responsible for the lions share and Crouch not far behind. For sheer stupidity Crouch has to be king. This is not a recommendation for a Lowe return as I can see little his skill sets add to the issue now, but I will still accept what is best for Saints, even if it is the king of the idiots, Crouch.

 

I find it incredible that you can manage to intersperse obvious and proven truths, with complete fabrication. To discuss each highlighted point...

 

1. Lowe did not spend money that we could not afford - £90k on Fuller was a pittance in relation to what was actually needed to make a difference. To spend more may have been an unacceptable risk to Lowe, but it was certainly no fortune.

 

2. "As normal"? Tell that to Birmingham or Reading. Sorry - Lowe managed to completely mis-manage the club and that is not 'normal' among clubs newly relegated from the Prem.

 

3. "We never recovered"? What about Burleys first push for promotion - we got into the play-off semi's - remember?

 

4. Crouch did not fuel Wilde's fire - quite the opposite in fact. He had to oust Wilde's Board appointments single-handedly to ensure the madness stopped. And that's among many other positive acts such as the appointment of the best manager since Strachan in Pearson, which Lowe then undid because of his dogma.

 

5. As above, there is every chance that had Lowe not sacked Pearson because of pure spite and dogma, we would not have been relegated this year. Equally valid argument to yours.

 

6. Rather than make a bland statement that Crouch is king of stupidity, why not list out for us all the exact aspects of his short Chairmanship that you think provide factual proof of this? Include dates. If you can do that I may be convinced, otherwise you only have an opinion and a ill-conceived one at that. :cool:

[CB Fry]

 

2. "As normal"? Tell that to Birmingham or Reading. Sorry - Lowe managed to completely mis-manage the club and that is not 'normal' among clubs newly relegated from the Prem.

 

 

Sorry it was "as normal". Brum were yo-yoing between the divisions, as were Reading. Neither were anything like as used to Premier League status as we were.

 

It was normal because Leeds, Cov, Sheff Weds, Forest and lots of others have suffered similarly and most, like us, haven't managed to scrape back yet.

 

For example, I back West Brom to be in better shape to come straight back up than Middlesbrough who have a big shock coming.

 

Don't kid yourself that Southampton Football Club have some monopoly on mismanagment. Tell that to a Sheffield Wednesday fan, or a Forest fan, or a Derby fan, or a Leicester fan.

 

 

Don't disagree with your other points though.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Sorry it was "as normal". Brum were yo-yoing between the divisions, as were Reading. Neither were anything like as used to Premier League status as we were.

 

It was normal because Leeds, Cov, Sheff Weds, Forest and lots of others have suffered similarly and most, like us, haven't managed to scrape back yet.

 

For example, I back West Brom to be in better shape to come straight back up than Middlesbrough who have a big shock coming.

 

Don't kid yourself that Southampton Football Club have some monopoly on mismanagment. Tell that to a Sheffield Wednesday fan, or a Forest fan, or a Derby fan, or a Leicester fan.

 

 

Don't disagree with your other points though.

 

Understand the points you're making CB, but the assertion was that it was normal to plummet when dropping into the CCC from the Prem. I don't see Birmingham or Reading struggling in the same manner as we have and at least Brum get back to earn a few bob in the Prem and keep the club alive. Lowe failed to manage the situation and while others have seen tough times also, it is far from normal I would argue.

[Frank's cousin]

I am convinced that Pearson could have worked with the most promising of the academy graduates and gelled them successfully with a backbone of our more experienced pro's. I can never be proved right, but if we had done that I am sure we'd be comfortably mid-table now, and quite possibly have avoided administration.

 

Time to put those mistakes in the past and hopfully move forward with a more realistic, sensible approach/board.

 

It is certainly true that had Pearson stayed and had both the best of the kids AND the established pros to work with all season then I would concede we would most likely have had better results - but, the problem I have is that we can only speculate about the financial impact and the REAL state of affairs that led to the decions of sending these pros out on loan. The two are related, but not the same.

 

UP has always maintained that Pearson WOULD have given us a better shot at survival than JP, or that Pearson could also have worked with the kids arguing that Leicester also had a youngish side... I dont disagree completely, but would still point out that that ASSUMES Pearson would have had those resources to hand. I suspect that Pearson had he stayed would have found himself in charge of the same squad (with teh obviousl few excepetions) as JP and then Wotte. Would he have done any better under those circumstances? Its hard to tell, because it was teh kids naiviety an lack of experience that led to the results.

 

What iI would admit to and I have come round a bit on this is that whatever logic Lowe thought there was in a continental 'Ajax' style youth -reserves-first team continuity set up (a system thatt eventually leads to a conveyour belt of ready made replacements when inevitably the most talented depart for more money...) - and I do think there is merit in that approach for provincial clubs without teh financial resources to buy success or replace top players in the transfer market - there were two major problems with Lowes judgement:

 

1) Timing - at a time when most fans were for the first time in ages feeling good about Pearson and survival, Lowe could have scored a reluctant positive PR goal, by sticking with him and acknowledging the work he had done - afterall Perason is a clam, intelligent and rational bloke - who ironically would probably have worked well with Lowe in that hes not the sort to whinge and moan publically when he does not get his way etc....Instead Lowe scioored a massive own PR goal and fans were againts him and anything he brought in to replace Pearson from teh start - made worse when results indicated 'I told you so'

 

2) Naivity of the CCC - It should not have escaped his notice that we played best against teh better footballing teams - thaose that came on and attacked leaving space for us to play - we still lost more due to inexperienced defending - but played better. Against 80% of the CCC sides however, who when coming to SMS defended in numbers and looked to the break, we simply could not break them down - no surprises as to why we gained more away points than at home.

 

Cue, Alpine to say this uis some sort of Lowe defence.... yawn ... ;-)