Oz Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it.
miserableoldgit Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. Yes. Potential.
saint77 Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. t#at
The Farmer Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. People are certainly trying to work out a deal, keep 'em peeled.
Arizona Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 Yes. For a start about £24m is apparently the mortgage on the stadium, which is being payed back over something like the next 20 years. Secondly the club will be dirt cheap and has a potentially Premiership sized fanbase and Prem quality facilities. Thirdly, if the club IS bought out by someone with a bit of cash and we can come up with a CVA, HMV, DVD, STD... whatever it's called, there is no need for a further deduction. Forthly, people are apparently interested. Chin up FFS!
SaintRobbie Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. Oz... Oz ... Oz. It'll be OK.
miserableoldgit Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 Yes. For a start about £24m is apparently the mortgage on the stadium, which is being payed back over something like the next 20 years. Secondly the club will be dirt cheap and has a potentially Premiership sized fanbase and Prem quality facilities. Thirdly, if the club IS bought out by someone with a bit of cash and we can come up with a CVA, HMV, DVD, STD... whatever it's called, there is no need for a further deduction. Forthly, people are apparently interested. Chin up FFS! Now that`s worrying!
St Landrew Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. t#at No he's not. He's just very depressed about the club he loves. Surely you can see that..? I can see the potential for a buyer though, and perhaps Oz will see it too given time. Having said that, there is a very real possiblility that all the interest will come to nothing. We must be prepared for it, although I believe Saints will not be allowed to die. For one thing, there's too much money involved to allow the debts to die with the club, so everyone wll be motivated to get a deal done.
CWD Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. If there is one thing that will seel our fate its this sort of negativity. Keep the faith, things will all work out ;-)
Nexstar Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. Yeah, 38 of them
Nineteen Canteen Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. Yes but not as some may be hoping for or demanding and it is entirely possible with more point deductions we could be in League 2 by August 2010. Problem is we may have a premeirship sized fan base but we don't have a championship sized average attendance and in L1 with a big points deficit to overcome I don't see how the average attendance of this season can be matched and that must be a worry for anyone buying into the club unless they are looking to sell or utilise our assets. I don't think you are being alarmist over the state of football in this country and i think there is a real risk that it could implode as in many areas, most notably, players salary, clubs are probably living beyond their means. Football use to be a working man's sport but how many true Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal fans can afford to regularly go and watch their team. I suspect Utd have more ST holders in the leafy surrounds of Chester and Alderley Edge than the likes of Salford. Football maybe in danger of pricing out those who are likely to be most loyal in an economic crisis or a reversal of fortune. At Saints for instance its the salt of the earth types who have continued to attend in my experience whereas the more 'corporate' casual fan there to watch the spectacle with his disinterested kids is the one who has lost interest and surrendered their STs. At least that seems to be the case in my block. The problem doesn't get much better when you come down through the leagues but unless the overheads of the clubs are reduced and the costs fall then surely only the big clubs will survive or be immune to administration. Football does seem to live in it's own micro-climate but signs that the outside world are beginning to have a negative impact on it are showing through. It wasn't so long ago that a club going into administration was a rare event and certainly you could not point to 6 clubs going bust in two seasons and I may have missed one or two and have ignored Gretna in the Scottish leagues and Inverness who are on the brink I believe. So we have Saints, Darlington, Stockport, Rotherham, Bournemouth and Luton. Also Coventry I believe stated their intent to go into administration all be it in slightly different circumstances. I think you're right to be worried and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise may have in some cases contributed to our demise with a head in the sand attitude.
samoakley Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 1.Most players are up for staying people like Davis Perry James Sajes BWP who i think will be amazing next season for us and are coach wants 2 stay oviosouly people think were defo only be down for one season and can see there become heros for taking us back up. 2.We have a fairly big fan base if tickets were droped to 15 pounds for adults you would see around 20,000 plus attendeces. 3.Stadium and training ground prem quailty. 4.Would get quite cheap and if the players above stay and others wouldnt have to spend much on players players that leave replace with loans from prem clubs or cheap fees for experinced league one players in there late 20s or early 30s. That for me is enough for people 2 want to buy us. 5.
LostBoys Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 I agree with potential but if you look at those teams likely to be relegated from the Prem you can see just how far we have fallen. We are just crap.
Saints foreva Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 Is Tuesday the day then? I can see myself having the laptop on all day with this forum and the OS up. SSN on in the background. Just praying something will come up....
Rory Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 1.Most players are up for staying people like Davis Perry James Sajes BWP who i think will be amazing next season for us and are coach wants 2 stay oviosouly people think were defo only be down for one season and can see there become heros for taking us back up. 2.We have a fairly big fan base if tickets were droped to 15 pounds for adults you would see around 20,000 plus attendeces. 3.Stadium and training ground prem quailty. 4.Would get quite cheap and if the players above stay and others wouldnt have to spend much on players players that leave replace with loans from prem clubs or cheap fees for experinced league one players in there late 20s or early 30s. That for me is enough for people 2 want to buy us. 5. lol
Saintandy666 Posted 3 May, 2009 Posted 3 May, 2009 I doubt we are going bust next week, I suspect it would be the next wage day(in the 20's of may?). Gives us a bit of time. Also, I doubt they would have this legends match on the 17th if we were going bust on tuesday. Also, I doubt the bank would pull the plug if there is still a high chance of them still getting their money if they wait a few days.
Nineteen Canteen Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 I doubt we are going bust next week, I suspect it would be the next wage day(in the 20's of may?). Gives us a bit of time. Also, I doubt they would have this legends match on the 17th if we were going bust on tuesday. Also, I doubt the bank would pull the plug if there is still a high chance of them still getting their money if they wait a few days. Similar logic was used after we passed the league's deadline for administration. A few days could be weeks could be months. Investment in this club has been a bit like the story of Peter and the Wolf and I think its time to stop crying wolf and wait and hope. I don't think the legends match or saint aid will worry HMRC or Barclays somehow, do you?
Saintandy666 Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 Similar logic was used after we passed the league's deadline for administration. A few days could be weeks could be months. Investment in this club has been a bit like the story of Peter and the Wolf and I think its time to stop crying wolf and wait and hope. I don't think the legends match or saint aid will worry HMRC or Barclays somehow, do you? What I meant was they may wait at least till the 20's of may to see out these 2 remaining deals.
Oz Posted 4 May, 2009 Author Posted 4 May, 2009 i can now reveal that my post was inspired by the devil's advocate, i just wanted to gather other views on this situation. nevertheless, it is a worrying time for ALL clubs
SFC1906 Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 People are certainly trying to work out a deal, keep 'em peeled. Eyes or chick peas?
Window Cleaner Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 Yes. For a start about £24m is apparently the mortgage on the stadium, which is being payed back over something like the next 20 years. Is it just me or is that mortgage going down at a very slow rate. Seem to remember in last years accounts it was 22 million,now it's 23.7 million which means in fact that it has gone up since last June. 7/8 years of paying off the mortgage for a net reduction of about 4 million isn't very encouraging to prospective mortgage payers is it.Whoever buys us out will want shot of that millstone as we obviously can't service it.
Alain Perrin Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 Is it just me or is that mortgage going down at a very slow rate. Seem to remember in last years accounts it was 22 million,now it's 23.7 million which means in fact that it has gone up since last June. 7/8 years of paying off the mortgage for a net reduction of about 4 million isn't very encouraging to prospective mortgage payers is it.Whoever buys us out will want shot of that millstone as we obviously can't service it. In the early years of a mortgage you are paying off a larger proportion of interest. I paid off £14K from mine last year. Net reduction in debt £3.5K. Sod all really. As I understand it the loan was restructured (term, conditions, rate) to make it more affordable for a non-Premiership club. This would have made annual payments more affordable, but at the cost of an increased total (hence the jump from 22m to 23.7m).
Alain Perrin Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 People are certainly trying to work out a deal, keep 'em peeled. Get behind the 'SFC is dying' mentality FFS
Arizona Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 Is it just me or is that mortgage going down at a very slow rate. Seem to remember in last years accounts it was 22 million,now it's 23.7 million which means in fact that it has gone up since last June. 7/8 years of paying off the mortgage for a net reduction of about 4 million isn't very encouraging to prospective mortgage payers is it.Whoever buys us out will want shot of that millstone as we obviously can't service it. Maybe we had some facility to borrow more cash against the stadium to keep Barclays happy for another few months. I am just speculating here, I don't have a mortgage and have no idea how SMS's is structured. I seem to remember someone saying the reduction in debt, about £750k a year, was pretty much doubled by the interest, meaning we pay just over £1.5m a year. Anyone want to clarify/ridicule/claim responsibility for that statement?
Window Cleaner Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 Maybe we had some facility to borrow more cash against the stadium to keep Barclays happy for another few months. I am just speculating here, I don't have a mortgage and have no idea how SMS's is structured. That's what I was thinking actually, we suspect (cos they've never been published) that the half year accounts would have shown another operating loss of 3+ million, yet we reduced our overdraft (probably a bit of + on player trading though cos we got a handout from the UEFA and an add on from Crouch amongst other things) But we got extra cash from Aviva,so they aren't going to let it go at a Marcus Evans type deal.Anyway the 32 million for 7 million won't apply to us because the debt isn't old enough to have generated income for them.Strange case Ipswich, in 2003 on exiting admin they had 35 million of debt wiped out, when Evans took over in 2007 they had apparently "recreated" 32 million of debt. Doesn't add up really, doubt if they really owed 32 million when he stepped in unless it was old debt renegociated in 2003.
angelman Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 we're not really £30m in debt. Before administration we were but now those who own the debt will have to settle for a lot less
Verbal Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 It all seems to be on a bit of a knife edge to me – and utterly dependent on the new owners, assuming we get them, making a long series of decisions that are absolutely right. As it stands, it seems that one bid has been received and there’s the prospect of two others. Unless any of these consortia are big-money philanthropists, the winning bid will come in around the £10-15 million mark. That’s enough money to clear the overdraft, pay the Inland Revenue their £2 million, settle outstanding debts on stage payments (for example, I’d expect another £400,000 on Morgan Schneiderlin to fall due at the beginning of the season), service the rescheduled debts on the stadium (probably halved to £12 million but at a high-ish interest rate), and pay the administrator’s fees (comfortably six figures), and set about putting a first team together for next season that will haul us back into the Championship. The new owners would then have to take some unpopular decisions – about the £1m per-annum costs of the academy, and the need to downgrade it to a youth team (still the kind of structure that delivered the Wallaces, Le Tiss, etc); as well as the need to generate short-term income from player sales (inevitably with the sale of players we’d have liked to keep). Against the backdrop of many of the best players leaving the club, the new board will have to find a really creative way of selling season tickets – aiming at least as high as Norwich and their figure of 18,000 and rising. Part of that will be to do with pricing. But more important even than that will be the appointment of a manager capable of lifting the spirits of everyone to do with the club. ALL of this will need to be done within weeks, otherwise the vital task of rebuilding the first team will start way too late, and we’ll be left scrambling for players who were not what we would ideally have wanted and come at an inflated price. If, and only if, the new incumbents have chosen the manager well, he’ll come with a list of players who will be the next Jason Scotland or Keith Fahey. And that manager will have the tactical skill, stamina, Churchillian inspiration and sheer bloody-mindedness to see us through the trench warfare of League One. (Already, he sounds closer to a superhero than the kind of manager you might expect us to snag in League One). Compare our situation to Leicester’s last season, and you really see the huge scale of the task. Leicester went down with a chairman prepared to pump £10 million into keeping the club and team together, many of their good players stayed to fight it out, the club started on zero points, and they had about the same numbers through the turnstiles as we did this year. The margin for error for a points-handicapped team in League One is worryingly small: we need to perform somewhere near or at play-off standard to be sure of safety in a league that relegates four teams a year. If all this happens – and it requires an awful lot of decisions to be the absolutely right ones – the paradox is the new owners will have one of the biggest bargains in British football on their hands, and the club will return to the Championship, restructured and making a small profit, ready to make a push for the promised land of the premiership. But right now it’s a bit like staring over the edge of a high cliff and seeing that the prize at the bottom has to be claimed within the next five seconds.
Saint Fan CaM Posted 4 May, 2009 Posted 4 May, 2009 Verbal - that's a great summary - agree with all you've said there.
St Landrew Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 Verbal - that's a great summary - agree with all you've said there. Indeed, an excellent summary of the near future for SFC.
The Farmer Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 Eyes or chick peas? Who told you about my 20p a day chick pea habit? And its sprouting chick peas nowadays FTW.
SFC1906 Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 Who told you about my 20p a day chick pea habit? And its sprouting chick peas nowadays FTW. 2 little birds who you walked home from a BBQ last w/end if you are who I think you are;)
NickG Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 It all seems to be on a bit of a knife edge to me – and utterly dependent on the new owners, assuming we get them, making a long series of decisions that are absolutely right. As it stands, it seems that one bid has been received and there’s the prospect of two others. Unless any of these consortia are big-money philanthropists, the winning bid will come in around the £10-15 million mark. That’s enough money to clear the overdraft, pay the Inland Revenue their £2 million, settle outstanding debts on stage payments (for example, I’d expect another £400,000 on Morgan Schneiderlin to fall due at the beginning of the season), service the rescheduled debts on the stadium (probably halved to £12 million but at a high-ish interest rate), and pay the administrator’s fees (comfortably six figures), and set about putting a first team together for next season that will haul us back into the Championship. The new owners would then have to take some unpopular decisions – about the £1m per-annum costs of the academy, and the need to downgrade it to a youth team (still the kind of structure that delivered the Wallaces, Le Tiss, etc); as well as the need to generate short-term income from player sales (inevitably with the sale of players we’d have liked to keep). Against the backdrop of many of the best players leaving the club, the new board will have to find a really creative way of selling season tickets – aiming at least as high as Norwich and their figure of 18,000 and rising. Part of that will be to do with pricing. But more important even than that will be the appointment of a manager capable of lifting the spirits of everyone to do with the club. ALL of this will need to be done within weeks, otherwise the vital task of rebuilding the first team will start way too late, and we’ll be left scrambling for players who were not what we would ideally have wanted and come at an inflated price. If, and only if, the new incumbents have chosen the manager well, he’ll come with a list of players who will be the next Jason Scotland or Keith Fahey. And that manager will have the tactical skill, stamina, Churchillian inspiration and sheer bloody-mindedness to see us through the trench warfare of League One. (Already, he sounds closer to a superhero than the kind of manager you might expect us to snag in League One). Compare our situation to Leicester’s last season, and you really see the huge scale of the task. Leicester went down with a chairman prepared to pump £10 million into keeping the club and team together, many of their good players stayed to fight it out, the club started on zero points, and they had about the same numbers through the turnstiles as we did this year. The margin for error for a points-handicapped team in League One is worryingly small: we need to perform somewhere near or at play-off standard to be sure of safety in a league that relegates four teams a year. If all this happens – and it requires an awful lot of decisions to be the absolutely right ones – the paradox is the new owners will have one of the biggest bargains in British football on their hands, and the club will return to the Championship, restructured and making a small profit, ready to make a push for the promised land of the premiership. But right now it’s a bit like staring over the edge of a high cliff and seeing that the prize at the bottom has to be claimed within the next five seconds. well put. agree manager appointment, optimism and stability are the keys to move forward. Teams often do well on smaller budgets with those factors. I wouldn't be surprised if there was not a payment due on Schniederlin - the release spoke about a price that could rise to, rather than rising to - and doubt the factors of his appearances, club success, internationals or whatever have been hit to require more!
The9 Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. Yes thanks, even during a recession. And the only three professional clubs that went to the wall last time there was a recession (with a lot less money in football generally) were all fourth tier or lower. I dare say someone's already said we don't so much as have £30m debt as £6m debt and a mortgage.
del boy Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 No place on this forum for a well reasoned piece of logic like that Verbal - lets get back to the knee jerk, we're all doomed, "x" is to blame for everything type post please. Joking aside - nice summary, thanks
Secret Site Agent Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 can any of you guys see anyone/group buying a 3rd. division outfit, 30 mill in debt with a likelihood of a further points deduction? imho i cannot. this is the start of the total collapse of footy as we know/knew it. Yeh, well, goodbye, and thanks for all the fish! No matter what happens I am just happy in the mindset that there were a large number that were interested, and they have been wittled down to a few.
The Farmer Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 (edited) 2 little birds who you walked home from a BBQ last w/end if you are who I think you are;) Not much of a BBQ, wasn't any Quorn burgers in sight when I got there!! Edited 5 May, 2009 by The Farmer
mack rill Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 QUOTE=mattyd;288080]Why will there be a further points deduction? Cos you might be hiding a whole cemetery in your closet:smt107:smt112
Wes Tender Posted 5 May, 2009 Posted 5 May, 2009 Problem is we may have a premeirship sized fan base but we don't have a championship sized average attendance and in L1 with a big points deficit to overcome I don't see how the average attendance of this season can be matched and that must be a worry for anyone buying into the club unless they are looking to sell or utilise our assets. The problem with assessments between attendances last season and this, is that there was definitely an element who stayed away because of Lowe. If prices fall this season to a reasonable level commensurate with other clubs in the third division, that is another element that clouds the comparison. I don't think you are being alarmist over the state of football in this country and i think there is a real risk that it could implode as in many areas, most notably, players salary, clubs are probably living beyond their means. Football use to be a working man's sport but how many true Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal fans can afford to regularly go and watch their team. I suspect Utd have more ST holders in the leafy surrounds of Chester and Alderley Edge than the likes of Salford. Here again, your analogy is almost discredited by the examples you give. How many fans who support Man Utd, Chelski and Arsenal have ever been to see them play at their own grounds? But those clubs make substantial amounts of cash purely through merchandising and TV revenue rather than through the turnstiles. OK, they also gain substantial sums through Corporate Hospitality and as long as they continue to thrive through that income, there is really no incentive to reduce the prices to attend the matches if the richer punters continue to fork out the dosh. Football maybe in danger of pricing out those who are likely to be most loyal in an economic crisis or a reversal of fortune. At Saints for instance its the salt of the earth types who have continued to attend in my experience whereas the more 'corporate' casual fan there to watch the spectacle with his disinterested kids is the one who has lost interest and surrendered their STs. At least that seems to be the case in my block. Again, a substantial number of ST holders did not renew because of Lowe. In your block, this might have happened too and those people were merely in a different part of the stand or another stand. The problem doesn't get much better when you come down through the leagues but unless the overheads of the clubs are reduced and the costs fall then surely only the big clubs will survive or be immune to administration. I don't disagree with you here. But everything depends on how successful we are in the lower leagues. There have been precedents before of clubs who have maintained their attendances in this division. With decent sympathetic ownership, good management and a team of players giving their all, we might achieve that too if we start getting the wins. Football does seem to live in it's own micro-climate but signs that the outside world are beginning to have a negative impact on it are showing through. It wasn't so long ago that a club going into administration was a rare event and certainly you could not point to 6 clubs going bust in two seasons and I may have missed one or two and have ignored Gretna in the Scottish leagues and Inverness who are on the brink I believe. So we have Saints, Darlington, Stockport, Rotherham, Bournemouth and Luton. Also Coventry I believe stated their intent to go into administration all be it in slightly different circumstances. I think you're right to be worried and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise may have in some cases contributed to our demise with a head in the sand attitude. The game of football is such that there are other factors that have an affect on the success or failure of clubs. There are many elements of chance involved and a fine balance needing to be struck between investing money in players at the right level. In our case for example, it might have been better had we bought fewer players of real quality, rather than many of mediocre quality. The same applies to the appointing and paying of a manager. The old adage that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys is usually very apt. Did I see it mentioned that the useless Poortvliet was only on £60,000? As I have said many times, we are a facet of the entertainment industry and the level of success achievable is reliant on several factors, such as the price and the actual quality of the matchday experience, which hinges on the ability of the players. From that perspective, I think it is fair to say that most home fans did not get value for money going every other week to only see four wins. It will be interesting to see whether attendances pick up with lower prices, the team actually winning home games, comprising players who actually seem to care, led by a decent manager.
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