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Stockport County minus 10 also !

eurosaint

By eurosaint
in The Saints

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John D

John D

Posted
Posted
Well this is the thing isn't it - Stockport getting the hit now doesn't make a blind bit of difference materially - they stay in the same league, albeit a few positions lower. So in that respect, it's hardly a "punishment" if they get them taken off now!

 

I can completely understand why we are getting ours next season - I cannot understand how Stockport can possibly get theirs this season though.

 

Agreed - this is where the logic of the rule falls over. In effect Stockport are able to end up with no penalty. I do not think any club should be penalised and sympathise with Stockport just think we have been hard done by

Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
We even managed to mess up going into admin. Someone must have known we were near the edge the week before.

 

Perhaps it was more dramatic this way and more beneficial to the club in the long run.

SaintBobby

SaintBobby

Posted
Posted
Agreed - this is where the logic of the rule falls over. In effect Stockport are able to end up with no penalty. I do not think any club should be penalised and sympathise with Stockport just think we have been hard done by

 

I'm not sure I agree. The penalty is not that you are automatically relegated. Their on-pitch performance means they stay up.

Michelle

Michelle

Posted
Posted

They should start NEXT season on -10, end of. THAT'S punishment for admin, in the same way we're being punished.

 

I seem to recall reading that because we'd gone into admin after the deadline, there were potentially three different outcomes dependent on our finishing position:

 

- if we were relegated, as we have been - deduction applies next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

- if we stayed up by less than 10 points - deduction applies this season, therefore relegation is the punishment

- if we stayed up by more than 10 points, the deduction applied next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

 

Stockport fall into the latter category, therefore should have them applied next season! Simples (as the meerkats would say!)

trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
They should start NEXT season on -10, end of. THAT'S punishment for admin, in the same way we're being punished.

 

I seem to recall reading that because we'd gone into admin after the deadline, there were potentially three different outcomes dependent on our finishing position:

 

- if we were relegated, as we have been - deduction applies next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

- if we stayed up by less than 10 points - deduction applies this season, therefore relegation is the punishment

- if we stayed up by more than 10 points, the deduction applied next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

 

Stockport fall into the latter category, therefore should have them applied next season! Simples (as the meerkats would say!)

 

I remember reading the above three options on here too....it just so happens that the third one was incorrect....I guess the moral of the story is not to believe everything you read on here....(no, honestly) :)

mikec

mikec

Posted
Posted
I see your thinking and like it

 

However the 10pt deduction means they'll finish lower in the league meaning less prize money!!

 

I don't think there is any prize money based on league position outside the Premiership.

 

It does seem to be another loophole if a team more than 10 points above the relagation zone can just go into admin near the end of the season and get no effective punishment.

SFC Forever

SFC Forever

Posted
Posted
To confirm, it definitely IS Stockport. Not Sarfend. Just checked SSN.

 

Considering their league position (And 13 points margin of safety over the bottom 4) they could actually take the hit this year.

 

I thought there was a cut of date so that will mean starting next season I am sure.

Deano6

Deano6

Posted
Posted
No we can't...XXXXXX offff

 

Sorry is this a 5 minute arguement or a 10 minute one...for us oldies.

 

No probs Euro just a bit tetchy with all this admin stuff and no buyer yet.

 

Yes, the admins on here are a touch anal.

Under Weststand

Under Weststand

Posted
Posted
They should start NEXT season on -10, end of. THAT'S punishment for admin, in the same way we're being punished.

 

I seem to recall reading that because we'd gone into admin after the deadline, there were potentially three different outcomes dependent on our finishing position:

 

- if we were relegated, as we have been - deduction applies next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

- if we stayed up by less than 10 points - deduction applies this season, therefore relegation is the punishment

- if we stayed up by more than 10 points, the deduction applied next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

 

Stockport fall into the latter category, therefore should have them applied next season! Simples (as the meerkats would say!)

 

Yes Agree with what you've posted it didn't matter what the outcome of this season we were going to get a significant punishment whatever happened.

Now I for one as my brother in law is a County season ticket holder hope they get away with it, as I don't want to see another club in our plight. But I am going to question what the stupid old Duffers at the Football League think there playing at. Come you TOP_HAT Mawhinney get your F**king rules sorted out.

Note that they even have it on the Coca Cola League Site http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/News/LeagueOneNewsDetail/0,,10794~1644278,00.html

Nellie

Nellie

Posted
Posted
Stockport are not mathematically safe yet so the final decision cannot be made at this time. If the deduction does not relegate them this season then it will apply next season.

No, if they finish in the relegation zone it will be enforced next season. If they finish outside the relegation zone, it will be applied this season.

 

Whether this then means they still stay up despite the points deduction, or it subsequently relegates them, is immaterial. Them's the rules. Hence why winning the last two games would have been massive for us, as the deduction would have been applied this year.

Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
so theoretically they could still get promoted?

No, because they are 15 points adrift of the play-offs (from S****horpe on 75) with one game remaining. If you then add the 10 point penalty the most they could get this season is 53 points. The penalty is applied when it hurts the most.

Weston Saint

Weston Saint

Posted
Posted

My understanding is as follows.

 

In the recent past Administration meant a 10 point penalty applying immediately. Then clubs like Leeds went into Administration because they knew they would be relegated anyway. The league decided to tighten up as follows:

 

A cut off date of 4th Thursday in March was applied.

 

Any club who went into Administration after that date had the 10 point penalty suspended until the end of the season.

 

If they were in the relegation zone the 10 point penalty is carried over to the next season

 

If they are out of the relegation zone the 10 point penalty applied this season. If that relegated the club so be it. The 10 point penalty is not carried over.

 

The carry over is to close the Leeds type loophole.

 

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6736997.stm

 

Stockport will suffer their 10 points this season and remain in the League 1 or will be relegated to League 2 depending on results of last day games but will not carry the 10 points over to lnext season.

 

HTH

SaintBobby

SaintBobby

Posted
Posted
They should start NEXT season on -10, end of. THAT'S punishment for admin, in the same way we're being punished.

 

I seem to recall reading that because we'd gone into admin after the deadline, there were potentially three different outcomes dependent on our finishing position:

 

- if we were relegated, as we have been - deduction applies next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

- if we stayed up by less than 10 points - deduction applies this season, therefore relegation is the punishment

- if we stayed up by more than 10 points, the deduction applied next season, so we're punished by starting on -10

 

Stockport fall into the latter category, therefore should have them applied next season! Simples (as the meerkats would say!)

 

I think your third point is wrong. If Saints had stayed up by more than ten points, the penalty would have applied THIS season and we would have started next season at zero points in the CCC.

Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
No, if they finish in the relegation zone it will be enforced next season. If they finish outside the relegation zone, it will be applied this season.

 

Whether this then means they still stay up despite the points deduction, or it subsequently relegates them, is immaterial. Them's the rules. Hence why winning the last two games would have been massive for us, as the deduction would have been applied this year.

Sorry, I stand corrected. They cannot be automatically relegated so the penalty must apply this season.

slickmick

slickmick

Posted
Posted

Que, open the floodgates to all mid table teams to take a hit now and gain a financial advantage next season. Great system the Football League have in place eh ?

slickmick

slickmick

Posted
Posted
My understanding is as follows.

 

In the recent past Administration meant a 10 point penalty applying immediately. Then clubs like Leeds went into Administration because they knew they would be relegated anyway. The league decided to tighten up as follows:

 

A cut off date of 4th Thursday in March was applied.

 

Any club who went into Administration after that date had the 10 point penalty suspended until the end of the season.

 

If they were in the relegation zone the 10 point penalty is carried over to the next season

 

If they are out of the relegation zone the 10 point penalty applied this season. If that relegated the club so be it. The 10 point penalty is not carried over.

 

The carry over is to close the Leeds type loophole.

 

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6736997.stm

 

Stockport will suffer their 10 points this season and remain in the League 1 or will be relegated to League 2 depending on results of last day games but will not carry the 10 points over to lnext season.

 

HTH

 

 

If they finished in relegation zone the points will carry into league 2 next season, same as us.

Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
If they finished in relegation zone the points will carry into league 2 next season, same as us.

It's been a long day, but this is where I went wrong. The only way that they can finish in the relegation zone is with the 10 point deduction so it will not apply next season as well.

Weston Saint

Weston Saint

Posted
Posted
If they finished in relegation zone the points will carry into league 2 next season, same as us.
But they cannot fall within the zone without the end of season deduction. They have 60 points. 4th from bottom have 47.
Block 5

Block 5

Posted
Posted

More bad news for football.

Stockport are another historic old club to feel the pinch.

Perhaps it is time for the league to review it's disciplinary procedures.

John D

John D

Posted
Posted

To question the logic - If Wolves were 11 points clear of the 3rd place team but 5 points from 2nd and then went into administration would it apply this season or next? ie to apply it this season would see them fall 1 place.

 

likewise if Stockport were 11 points clear of the team below them ie they would not fall a place then when would it apply

SaintBobby

SaintBobby

Posted
Posted
Que, open the floodgates to all mid table teams to take a hit now and gain a financial advantage next season. Great system the Football League have in place eh ?

 

This is a very good point.

 

The absurdity of the rule is that Stockport have effectively "done a Leeds", by taking a deduction now that is (almost) totally irrelevant.

 

I would have thought the rule should be:

 

1. If you go into admin before 1st April, you take the penalty this season.

2. If after the 1st April, you take it next season.

3. If you go into admin on April Fool's day (as Saints did), you take no penalty at all! :-)

 

I wonder whether the general confusion and nonsense surrounding the rules might help Saints in their appeal?

CHAPEL END CHARLIE

CHAPEL END CHARLIE

Posted
Posted
We will now be smaller than teams like Doncaster, Peterborough and Blackpool.......... never thought I would be saying that.

 

You consider the Posh to a 'bigger' club than the Saints just because they happen to be playing one division higher next season ? They were only formed in 1934 have never won anything and this season boast an average attendence of 7442 per match .

 

Bigger ? - Not in my book .

Michelle

Michelle

Posted
Posted

The Football League really need to sort this once and for all. They shouldn't be able to, as has been said, allow Stockport to effectively "do a Leeds" and take a completely meaningless deduction.

 

The deduction should be seen as a punishment for poor financial control. Stockport's punishment is dropping from one meaningless league position to another. Whoop-de-doo.

RedAndWhite91

RedAndWhite91

Posted
Posted

Must say I feel sorry for them, we know what it's like facing up to being 10 points behind, shame for (although I hate to say it) 'lower league football' clubs.

 

Many clubs below the Premiership must face a real battle to survive and it is a very harsh system, the football league.

trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
To question the logic - If Wolves were 11 points clear of the 3rd place team but 5 points from 2nd and then went into administration would it apply this season or next? ie to apply it this season would see them fall 1 place.

 

likewise if Stockport were 11 points clear of the team below them ie they would not fall a place then when would it apply

 

I'm thinking of a grey elephant from Denmark.

AndyNorthernSaints

AndyNorthernSaints

Posted
Posted
Has smug faced Mawhinney been on the telly smirking like a Cheshire cat yet?

 

He's got a face that says punch me.

It would be great if Saints win the play of final next season so we can stick two fingers up to him when he presents Saints the trophy.

SaintBobby

SaintBobby

Posted
Posted
I thought the rule was 10 point deduction this year if it made a difference.

So how on earth are Stockport not being treated in the same way?

 

You're right, the deduction doesn't make a difference to Stockport. They have merely gone from meaningless mid-table to meaningless-lower-table.

 

The "does it make a difference?" appears only to apply to clubs in the releagtion zone from what I can see. That's arbitray and unfair.

 

Suppose a team was in 3rd place,six points away from automatic promotion but in the play-offs with a fifteen point cushion, with one game to go. My understanding is that the League will allow them to take the 10 point penalty there and then....even though this means they are STILL in the post-season play-offs.

mcjwills

mcjwills

Posted
Posted (edited)
This is a very good point.

 

absurdity of the rule is that Stockport have effectively "done a Leeds", by taking a deduction now that is (almost) totally irrelevant.

 

I would have thought the rule should be:

 

1. If you go into admin before 1st April, you take the penalty this season.

2. If after the 1st April, you take it next season.

3. If you go into admin on April Fool's day (as Saints did), you take no penalty at all! :-)

 

I wonder whether the general confusion and nonsense surrounding the rules might help Saints in their appeal?

 

If you went and read their website you will see that they were put into administration by David Farms Limited not doing a Leeds as you put it

 

Try reading and you may have a bit more sympathy for them

 

http://www.stockportcounty.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10419~1644145,00.html

Edited by mcjwills
Mole

Mole

Posted
Posted

 

"In the last five seasons," it said, "Saints have had 11 managers, 20 coaches, 109 players, four different boards, three plc chairmen, three football chairmen, 21 directors, two Ted Bates statues and one administrator."

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/championship/charlton/5251841/Charlton-Norwich-and-Southampton-have-suffered-heavy-fall-from-grace.html

Under Weststand

Under Weststand

Posted
Posted

This could mean more trouble for Stockport The BIG BAD TAX MAN http://www.stockport.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=145711 as I thought they were close to the wall earlier in the season & days from going to the wall as they owed about 1/2 a million to HMRC. But they sold Pilkington & McNulty & paid about £250.000 off & had an agreement to pay more, but seeing this on Vital football looks like they could be in for more trouble, will they get a CVA??? possible bigger points deduction next season if & when they come out of Administration.

slickmick

slickmick

Posted
Posted
It's been a long day, but this is where I went wrong. The only way that they can finish in the relegation zone is with the 10 point deduction so it will not apply next season as well.

 

But they cannot fall within the zone without the end of season deduction. They have 60 points. 4th from bottom have 47.

 

OOps my mistake.

St Landrew

St Landrew

Posted
Posted
Sorry I cant rejoice in another clubs problems. Football is in a mess an the sooner the big 4 bugger off to a super league the better.

There are many threads complaining what Norwich, Forest, Luton wrote about our demise and here (some) are doing the same.

 

I would say that the sooner SKY bugger off the better. Let's have a return to real football as it used to be. None of the extreme salaries, the high ticket prices, the big 4. I remember a time when a football club won mainly on merit. Not because of the size of its bankroll.

 

So, a return to the Divisions 1 to 4. A return to the 50/50 split of league match gate money [the removal of which started the whole greed thing off], and fairer competition all round. At least then the majority of football fans can have something to look forward to, instead of what amounts to about a few percent.

 

One can dream.

Daren W

Daren W

Posted
Posted
My understanding is as follows.

 

In the recent past Administration meant a 10 point penalty applying immediately. Then clubs like Leeds went into Administration because they knew they would be relegated anyway. The league decided to tighten up as follows:

 

A cut off date of 4th Thursday in March was applied.

 

Any club who went into Administration after that date had the 10 point penalty suspended until the end of the season.

 

If they were in the relegation zone the 10 point penalty is carried over to the next season

 

If they are out of the relegation zone the 10 point penalty applied this season. If that relegated the club so be it. The 10 point penalty is not carried over.

 

The carry over is to close the Leeds type loophole.

 

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6736997.stm

 

Stockport will suffer their 10 points this season and remain in the League 1 or will be relegated to League 2 depending on results of last day games but will not carry the 10 points over to lnext season.

 

HTH

 

So let me get this straight then...

The FA did everything in their power to screw us over, stay up or not, yes?

The FA are doing all they can to stop Stockport either getting relegated this season or starting with -10 next season, yes?

Surely the fairest way to do things is if you go into adminstration after the deadine the points come off next season, if you go before the deadline then it's this season.

Surely that's tha fairest way to do it or am I just paranoid in thinking the FA just want to screw us??

stevegrant

stevegrant

Posted
Posted

What a shambles.

 

The idea of the rule in the first place was to prevent a "Leeds" situation whereby a club would go into administration towards the end of the season when they knew whether they were already safe/relegated and take the points deduction then, which would be rendered fairly irrelevant.

 

The Football League appear to be very selective with the parts of their rules that they apply to the letter and those with which they arbitrarily decide a club is attempting to exploit a loophole.

Mole

Mole

Posted
Posted
Surely that's tha fairest way to do it or am I just paranoid in thinking the FA just want to screw us??

 

Rupert Lowe and his old mate Sir James Goldsmith screwed the Tories during Mawhinneys watch so i do think there's a settling of old scores at play to a certain extent.

brmbrm

brmbrm

Posted
Posted

The rules are 100% clear and transparent.

 

It takes a particularly inept sort of incompetence to go into admin a few days after the cut-off and get BOTH relegated AND start the following season at -10 points.

 

Now where could we possibly find such an incompetent leader..........

stevegrant

stevegrant

Posted
Posted
The rules are 100% clear and transparent.

Yes, they state that if a football club goes into administration, they will be deducted 10 points.

 

Southampton Football Club is not (yet) in administration.

 

While there may be very obvious ties between SFC and SLH, the Football League rules state that everything applies to the football club only.

 

They've (arguably rightly) decided that we've exposed a loophole and should still be punished accordingly. They've (almost certainly wrongly) decided that Stockport haven't exposed a different loophole in the same rule, and will essentially get away with a points deduction that means the square root of sod all to them.

Mole

Mole

Posted
Posted
The rules are 100% clear and transparent.

 

It takes a particularly inept sort of incompetence to go into admin a few days after the cut-off and get BOTH relegated AND start the following season at -10 points.

 

Now where could we possibly find such an incompetent leader..........

 

Lowe was frantically trying to save his investment. His investment was far more important to him than worrying about petty things like next seasons points deduction.

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