madamster Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 As many have said, not unexpected but still a blow to Saints fans. In 2003 when Derby's parent company was in admin for 3 minutes, the 10 point deduction rule wasnt in force. that followed the Leicester affair. Even later than the Leicester affair there was still a loophole that both Leeds and Boston used AFTER they knew they had been relegated. they went into admin to get the penalty in a season in which they had already been relegated. Boston actually went into admin at Half Time in the last match of the season. They knew they were down so they took the hit in that season rather than the next. That was what tempted the Football League to amend the rules to stop anybody else doing it. As if that wasn't enough they also gave themselves carte blanche to investigate anything and everything wheneve they felt like it and to aplly sanctions like fines, points deductions, relegation and even expulsion if they thought that a club had tried to use or misuse the rules in some way. Quite how they came to that decision with the Saints I dont know. Having teams like Leeds and Saints in Division 3 is not something I ever expected to see. Stay loyal, that puts cash in the coffers and will help you recover asap.
Mole Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Firstly it's not over yet. Last week Grant Thornton appointed by the league to investigate had a brief from the league, when they proceeded to exceed that brief the club refused them access. GT then walked out and without further ado submitted a report on which the league has acted. The administrator says that the league's actions are not in accordance with their rules. The club is considering it's position with it's lawyers and I'm expecting SFC to appeal and/or SLH fire a legal shot across the league's bow. This is likely to run and run. Instead of funds collected going to players wages why don't you put them towards a legal battle?
Bailey Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 The deafening silence from the OS is nothing short of an asolute disgrace. My gut feeling is that they are 'readying' a statement as we speak, possibly publicising the fact that they plan to appeal the decision.
Perennial Underachiever Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Stupid retarded system. But retarded though the FL is, the biggest criminals are Lowe and Wilde, et al. I hope they rot in hell.
grasscutter Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 " How to F**K up a football club" ! Steps 1-5 Never been to Yeovil or Huddersfield
LGTL Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 The administrator runs the PLC now, I guess he tells them what to put up. SFC is in the hands of strangers for the time being, what do you expect the OS to put up? Well they have managed to harp on about great escapes for the past week. Perhaps a short statement regarding more important business wouldn't go amiss, no?
Nolan Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Whats the relevance of this? sorry.... Neil Doncaster is both on the Football League Board, and chief executive of Norwich City
badgerx16 Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Instead of funds collected going to players wages why don't you put them towards a legal battle? No win, no fee ?
mdearlove Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/may/07/leedsappeal Thus makes grim reading if the HRMC vote against CVA which it appears they always do Don't think HMRC will be one of our bigger creditors unlike the situation at Leeds
johnny c Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Why? Because it's almost impossible to get a CVA now the HMRC can block football clubs from getting one. Teams that have gone into admin since the new ruling: Leeds: deducted 10 points for going into admin while in the championship, deducted another 15pts before the start of league one season for exiting admin without a CVA. Boston: relegated two divisions Rotherham & Bournemouth: started season on -17 for going into admin and no CVA Luton: deducted 20pts for admin/cva + another 10 for dodgy agent fees Darlington: -10 and still in admin So looking at that the best we can hope for is -17 if we don't exit admin with a CVA sorted (unlikely with our tax bill)
trousers Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 The deafening silence from the OS is nothing short of an asolute disgrace. I would imagine the club's lawyers are pawing over the content before any statement is released....
Mole Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Neil Doncaster is both on the Football League Board, and chief executive of Norwich City That is a conflict of interests imo.
Window Cleaner Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Well they have managed to harp on about great escapes for the past week. Perhaps a short statement regarding more important business wouldn't go amiss, no? Because they want you to turn up on Saturday and fill the coffers so that they can give it to creditors.It's as transparent as a sheet of cellophane.
Bailey Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Neil Doncaster is both on the Football League Board, and chief executive of Norwich City I thought it was made public knowledge that Neil wouldn't be able to have say due to his Norwich connections? Did I make that up or is this true? Not that it really matters at the end of the day.
derry Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 It is over Derry, face up to it man. In that case you'd better let Mark Fry know because as of ten minutes ago he said they were considering their position to a direct question about legal action and the lawyers were looking at it as we speak.
solentstars Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Firstly it's not over yet. Last week Grant Thornton appointed by the league to investigate had a brief from the league, when they proceeded to exceed that brief the club refused them access. GT then walked out and without further ado submitted a report on which the league has acted. The administrator says that the league's actions are not in accordance with their rules. The club is considering it's position with it's lawyers and I'm expecting SFC to appeal and/or SLH fire a legal shot across the league's bow. This is likely to run and run. thats what i thought would happen and am suprised by the 10point deduction.
Saint Billy Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 But then Leicester's fans didn't sh*t on them did they. How many Mandaric outs we're there on their forum and in their local rag? How many said Mandaric took us down, I won't go again till he's gone. The fans who decided not to turn up,for whatever reason, have their share of the blame. If just 1000 more had attended each home game we'd be 400K£ better off and not in such a dire state. If only Skacel had ****ed off to Ipswich when he had the chance we'd be laughing even now. Have you been reading the Leicester fans forums then have you? Why did the fans not turn up is the question to be asked, and one that has been answered numerous times on here. No it is not the anti Lowe stay aways responsible, its the whole tragic mess that this club has got itself into over a few years which has been responsible for the fans getting tired of the whole sorry affair.
mrs woody Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 HMRC votes as a policy against any such football club CVA, so where tax and VAT form 25% or more of a club's debts achieving a CVA is likely to be impossible.
the wedge Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 The deafening silence from the OS is nothing short of an asolute disgrace. It wouldn't surprise me if he left the club, took his coat and cleared his desk before the redundancy knife falls.
mdearlove Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Because it's almost impossible to get a CVA now the HMRC can block football clubs from getting one. Teams that have gone into admin since the new ruling: Leeds: deducted 10 points for going into admin while in the championship, deducted another 15pts before the start of league one season for exiting admin without a CVA. Boston: relegated two divisions Rotherham & Bournemouth: started season on -17 for going into admin and no CVA Luton: deducted 20pts for admin/cva + another 10 for dodgy agent fees Darlington: -10 and still in admin So looking at that the best we can hope for is -17 if we don't exit admin with a CVA sorted (unlikely with our tax bill) Our tax bill can't be more than the 25% of debt max figure that HMRC uses to determine whether to agree to a CVA or not. Our debt is supposedly over £30 million now - so we would have to be owing in excess of £7.5 million to the tax man
bridge too far Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 I thought it was made public knowledge that Neil wouldn't be able to have say due to his Norwich connections? Did I make that up or is this true? Not that it really matters at the end of the day. I'm sure I read that somewhere too.
Window Cleaner Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Our tax bill can't be more than the 25% of debt max figure that HMRC uses to determine whether to agree to a CVA or not. Our debt is supposedly over £30 million now - so we would have to be owing in excess of £7.5 million to the tax man In fact our ordinary debt is relatively minor, it's just the Stadium debt (on a long term mortgage) that boosts it to 30 million.
solentstars Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 6.62 million quid overdraft.thats what killed this club and who were the guilty people responsible for that.
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 But then Leicester's fans didn't sh*t on them did they. How many Mandaric outs we're there on their forum and in their local rag? How many said Mandaric took us down, I won't go again till he's gone. The fans who decided not to turn up,for whatever reason, have their share of the blame. If just 1000 more had attended each home game we'd be 400K£ better off and not in such a dire state. If only Skacel had ****ed off to Ipswich when he had the chance we'd be laughing even now. Now I'm getting angry..... Ok, one more time. The fans cannot be blamed for this mess in any way, shape or form. You simply cannot blame the customers for not buying the product if the product is cr@p. Perhaps if the incompetents who have been trying to run this club had realised that sooner then we might not be in this mess.
trousers Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Football League chairman Lord Mawhinney on SSN in next hour to explain their decision
JustMike Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Football League chairman Lord Mawhinney on SSN in next hour to explain their decision the guy is a tosspot and should be as far away from football as a certain Mr Lowe.
corky morris Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Can we please, please, please finally stop talking about Lowe now? Doubtful as the situation we find ourselves in now is a direct result of his legacy. Mind you - "We dont want to do a Leeds do we!!!????"
Saint RuBoy Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Maybe Lowe just perfected his exit plan inflicting the most pain on the Club and Fans as he went...
Window Cleaner Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 (edited) thats what killed this club and who were the guilty people responsible for that. I think a comparison of the half year accounts to December 2007 and the full year accounts to June 30 2007 will provide the answer to that question. Personally I can't remember the position at 30/12/2007. I have looked it up 30/12 OD 6.14 million with more receivables than payables by 1 million or so. 30/6 despite getting money for Burley and Walcott and ST income OD 6.62 million with more payables than receivables. I'm not an accountant but if I read that in any standard thesis then I'd say that the debt went up from 30/12/7 to 30/6/8 Edited 23 April, 2009 by Window Cleaner
so22saint Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 While building a website (http://www.goalrun.com) last year, I got to meet the Football League. They're everything you'd expect and I also predicted we'd get at least -10. I'm starting to believe the "sounding out the Blue Square" rumour as well...
borth2 Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 It is over Derry, face up to it man. If you read the league statement, you see FL asked their lawyers about the intrepretation of their rules. If you then read the aforesaid rules , one condition for applying the deduction(among others) is the appointment of an administrator to run the football club, and then at the bottom is a catch all clause which says any action in any jurisdiction which has the same effect will also invoke a penalty. An administrator is running the football club- qed. Any thoughts that the administrator has either the will or money to challenge this is just wishful thinking.
LostBoys Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 I have just read the League statement and find it hard to argue against it. All of the other PLC activities like Insurance Saints Radio etc all lost money and have been closed down or sold. The salvation of our piece of land at the farm is flawed as it has been just that for years and is not yet zoned for development as I understand it. Consequently the only activity for the Plc is the football club and they cannot be distinguished. I am sure we will appeal if not in Liquidation by then to avoid the minus 10 points next season as a compromise but Lowe and Cos legacy is that they gambled on or before 24 March 2009 that we would stay up on merit and the League would not deduct points. They have been wrong on both counts like most other decisions they made and now we have the worst of both worlds. We can only hope that we win both games and Norwich and Barnsley lose both games and we take the 10 this year and then win on appeal. Odds anyone. Will Guy Gutless and Mike ( I am trying to change sides because I am a supporter) Spineless turn up on saturday.
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 But then Leicester's fans didn't sh*t on them did they. How many Mandaric outs we're there on their forum and in their local rag? How many said Mandaric took us down, I won't go again till he's gone. The fans who decided not to turn up,for whatever reason, have their share of the blame. If just 1000 more had attended each home game we'd be 400K£ better off and not in such a dire state. If only Skacel had ****ed off to Ipswich when he had the chance we'd be laughing even now. Leicester sneakily shed their stadium debt years ago before the points penalty came in being. As another have said, it's crazy to blame fans for any of this, given the amount of rubbish we have to put up with on and off the pitch I think it's a great credit that we get as many turning up as we do.
Stepgar Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 im really happy we are down, im going to suppport portsmouth now Thats not even closely funny Dik Ed
Deppo Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 The worst possible outcome. I think this will do for us.
Flyer Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 In that case you'd better let Mark Fry know because as of ten minutes ago he said they were considering their position to a direct question about legal action and the lawyers were looking at it as we speak. You do know any legal action would mean Saints registration to the football league next season isnt accepted?
ART Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Totally gutted and fear more bad news will follow. I only hope that the players go out in style and manage to savour at least the last remnants of pride we have left by winning our final two games and sending the likes of Forest down. Next we can expect the Administrator to announce that, following the League's deduction of points, all interested parties have decided to end their interest in purchasing the club. More likely is the League will dig up other skeletons and more points will be deducted. One thing is certain. We have to accept that it'll be at least 2 seasons before we stand a chance, if any, of getting out of League One.
ASod Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Hi Saints, I'm sorry you've gone down. I'm a Norwich fan, it doesn't bring me any pleasure to see you go down even if there is now one less place for us. Neither of our clubs are having a great time right now. Hopefully we can both rise from the ashes in the coming seasons. As for Neil Doncaster, I wouldn't worry too much about a conflict of interests. He's far too incompetent to even realise he had one! Anyway, with a bit of luck he won't have anything more to do with Norwich City in the future. Good luck to you.
James_O_Mac Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Now I'm getting angry..... Ok, one more time. The fans cannot be blamed for this mess in any way, shape or form. You simply cannot blame the customers for not buying the product if the product is cr@p. Perhaps if the incompetents who have been trying to run this club had realised that sooner then we might not be in this mess. Completely agree with this. While I understand everyone's efforts to ease the debt for the club we love by doing bucket collections etc. you might as well be burning your money. There are far more worthy causes in the world than a football club run by absolute fools. It is insulting to ask for more money when they couldn't cut their cloth.
JustMike Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Hi Saints, I'm sorry you've gone down. I'm a Norwich fan, it doesn't bring me any pleasure to see you go down even if there is now one less place for us. Neither of our clubs are having a great time right now. Hopefully we can both rise from the ashes in the coming seasons. As for Neil Doncaster, I wouldn't worry too much about a conflict of interests. He's far too incompetent to even realise he had one! Anyway, with a bit of luck he won't have anything more to do with Norwich City in the future. Good luck to you. Thanks mate, hope you stay up.
Toomer Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Come on 19 what is your take on this will it be the same B.S as your take on Lowe.
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 I'm so angry that it hasn't sunk in yet really. I'm not mad really at the Footbal League as after reading their statements on the BBC sport website we have no excuse or cause for complaint. All I can do is look forward to Northampton away.
RichardGroves Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Guardian Unlimited are reporting that Saints plan to appeal. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/23/southampton-point-penalty-relegated-championship
The9 Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 So as I understand it we are down under either scenario. However if we finish out of the bottom three before the 10 point deduction then the 10 point deduction takes us down but we start with a level playing field in League One. If we were in the bottom three anyway at the end of the season then we start League One with minus 10. So the next two matches actually are important (both 5 pointers in a way!). Actually as the convention is to include all the points being played for by BOTH teams, and Burnley and Forest are still playing for something, the games could be described as both being 13 pointers. Which is novel... ...of course this stuff is too complicated for the casual fan, so we'll probably get more claims for refunds than people rolling up to sell out - but no worries, cos they'll all sod off in the 70th minute or when we go 2 behind anyway.
Leicestersaint Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 That our great club, with its long history, has been reduced to this by a bunch of fourth-rate directors, managers and players.
Window Cleaner Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Guardian Unlimited are reporting that Saints plan to appeal. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/23/southampton-point-penalty-relegated-championship that will make it worse, they just won't let us be in the league till it's sorted out. Hence the request to the Blue Square as reported yesterday. They give us -10, we don't like it and appeal, they can't let us play so in the Blue Sq,perfect logic really.They therefore anticipated an appeal.and we no doubt anticipated -10. I certainly did because it's logical .
lenwilkins Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/News/ChampionshipNewsDetail/0,,10794~1636735,00.html I've just read the rationale on the league website and it makes no sense from a legal perspective. SLH (the only bit where an administrator has been appointed) is in no way an asset or an undertaking of SFC, SFC is an asset/undertaking of SLH. The FL have made a perverse decision on the facts. The administrators should and almost certainly will challenge this, as it will materially affect the value of SLH's main asset and, as such, the return to creditors. This is by no means over. The report doesn't claim SLH is an asset of SFC. It does say: 1.The Holding Company has no income of its own; all revenue and expenditure is derived from the operation of Southampton Football Club Limited (SFC) and the associated stadium company. 2.The Holding company is solvent in its own right. It only becomes insolvent when account is taken of the position of SFC and the other group companies. 3.The three entities (the Holding Company, SFC and the stadium company) comprise the football club and they are inextricably linked as one economic entity. In light of all this advice, the Board concluded that an administrator had been appointed in respect of the Club or part of its undertaking or assets. Accordingly, it was left with no alternative other than to invoke its 'Sporting Sanctions' regulations and apply a 10 point penalty to the Club. The other provisions of The League's insolvency policy also become effective. You're the lawyer RR but I can't see that we have a leg to stand on.
eelpie Posted 23 April, 2009 Posted 23 April, 2009 Just heard it on the radio too, but they're saying the points deduction will apply next season. Yep. You utter plonker, Lowe! You too, Wilde! Many of us were pleading for the club to go into Administration before the March deadline. To go into it a few days later is incompetence of the highest order. Thanks to your maladministration, and if we still exist, we will start League 2 with minus 10 points, without most of even the Academy kids, the way it is looking. You have failed us on all counts. And the consequences will be with us forever.
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