Hillsborough rememberance?

[um pahars]

Ironically, me and my mates missed the start and Wallace's goal after a long walk from a not so local boozer. Fortunately there was no congestion and we walked straight into the away section.

 

I had a radio with me and was asked how the semi-finals were going. At first I couldnt work out why there was no match commentary apart from a few reports from the Everton-Luton game.

 

The game at Hillsborough had obviously been stopped but when the announcer (Des Lynham?) first mentioned deaths the game in front of us ceased to matter. It was just a case of hearing the death toll move up every few minutes and when Rideout scored there was hardly any celebrating from our section.

 

The following Tuesday we played Norwich at home and I couldnt face going and from what I was told it was a totally passionless 0-0.

 

Was also at the game and we were convinced we had only managed a draw as we too arrived after kick off (we ended up parking next to the meat wagons right behind the away end).

 

Can remember at half time the stadium announcer saying the game was being held up due to "crowd trouble" and that there had been at least one fatality (as were the stereotypes of the day, the general consensus amongst our group was that someone must have got stabbed!!!).

 

It was only upon walking out that there were further updates and a Met Copper telling us it "had all gone to sht up there".

 

Remember driving home and the radio was just continually providing updates with the number of deaths just spiralling upwards and upwards.

 

Pretty close to home considering all the packed terraces I had stood on, including Leppings Lane in the 1985 FA Cup Quarter Final!!!!!!!!

[The Majestic Channon]

I was at upton park that day too, and was also late in the ground after a morning in the pub! i remember the tannoy anouncement and some dickhead in our section laughing out loud.

[Arizona]

Arizona mate, at no point did I say that you were being anti-scouse or making generalisations. But some on this thread are.

 

I shall be at Hillsborough on Saturday and if there is a minute's silence I shall observe it in a respectful manner, becoming to a Saints fan.

If you're there too mate, I know you will be doing the same.

 

Won't be, wish I was, I would.

[CB Fry]

Fact: The Taylor report laid the blame solely at the feet of poor policing, and found no evidence to suggest that there were significant numbers of ****ed up and ticketless scousers outside.

 

The ****ed up ticketless scousers myth was conjured up by South Yorks police to try to cover up their blatant disregard for the safety of the fans in those pens.

 

 

Must be a different Taylor report that talked about there being ticketless fans there, and a different Taylor report that specifically quoted the phrase "if you don't let us in we'll force the gates or wreck your town".

 

The final report coyly refered to that quote being used "at other times", Taylor was no fool: he was never going to lay that charge at the Liverpool fans that day because it would become too much of a story, but the inference is a clear as day that was obviously a factor.

[maxi_sopez]

Im not going on Saturday, but after this week reading about what happened in the Lepping lane end im not sure if i would want to go sit where 96 people died....just what i think, but people going dont you feel weird about it ?

[Saint137]

Read the report, you can download it here:

 

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/foi/significantpublicinterest/interim%20report%20hillsborough.zip

 

No blame was laid against ticketless or drunk fans. The report specifically states that there was a drunken minority at the back of the queue but that there was no evidence to support the Police view that there were a large number of ticketless fans.

 

Any policing effort at a football match should expect and be prepared to deal with both situations - any all-ticket/sold out match will attract people trying to buy spare tickets and we all know that generally away fans will have a few beers in the lead up to the game. It was the same then as it is now.

[Tamesaint]

Was also at the game and we were convinced we had only managed a draw as we too arrived after kick off (we ended up parking next to the meat wagons right behind the away end).

 

Can remember at half time the stadium announcer saying the game was being held up due to "crowd trouble" and that there had been at least one fatality (as were the stereotypes of the day, the general consensus amongst our group was that someone must have got stabbed!!!).

 

It was only upon walking out that there were further updates and a Met Copper telling us it "had all gone to sht up there".

 

Remember driving home and the radio was just continually providing updates with the number of deaths just spiralling upwards and upwards.

 

Pretty close to home considering all the packed terraces I had stood on, including Leppings Lane in the 1985 FA Cup Quarter Final!!!!!!!!

 

I went to that game at Upton Park with the missus who was making one of her rare appearances at a match. She has only been to about 10 or so matches in her life but one of them had been the cup game at Luton which we lost (I think) in January / February 1988.

 

That Luton game , standing in the away end was pretty terrifying for her. Towards the end everyone got really excited as we pressed for an equaliser and as the crowd swayed around she got swept away in the surge. It was pretty normal for football fans at that time in large crowds but for her it was very frightening. She couldn't believe why the stewards didn't open one of the gates to the fences to let people spill onto the pitch.

 

15 months or so later at Upton Park it was all very prophetic for her. To a non footballing person like her, something like Hillsborough was bound to happen sooner or later. It was a pity that us footballing people didn't forsee it.

[Arizona]

Im not going on Saturday, but after this week reading about what happened in the Lepping lane end im not sure if i would want to go sit where 96 people died....just what i think, but people going dont you feel weird about it ?

 

I'm not going, but it wouldn't really put me off. I'd be a bit eiry, but I've been to plenty of other places where a lot of people have met a terrible death. East Midlands Airport, Kings Cross Underground station, The Piccadily Line, The beaches of Dunkirque, The Mont Blanc tunnel...

[supaimpy_returns]

Not going on Saturday, however can I just say there is nothing wrong with standing at football games as long as its in a clearly defined area and the numbers are controlled.

Standing was not the issue at Sheffield, overcrowding was, whether it was ticketless fans, police or stewards , the blame is primarily down to overcrowding, and yet football clubs still seem to declare two different sets of figures for attendances at most games.

Listened to the service today in the car, and I would think everyone, football fan or not could not fail to be moved by it, goosebumps and a lump in the throat.

 

How many on here have taken their kids to a game and sat and thought that the missus may not of allowed that if the grounds had not changed and the whole atmosphere changed as a result of that fateful afternoon ?

 

There was an article on Sunday that made sense to me, knock down that stand, the Football Community should replace it, yes Wednesday will benefit but Football can move on

[CB Fry]

Read the report, you can download it here:

 

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/foi/significantpublicinterest/interim%20report%20hillsborough.zip

 

No blame was laid against ticketless or drunk fans. The report specifically states that there was a drunken minority at the back of the queue but that there was no evidence to support the Police view that there were a large number of ticketless fans.

 

Any policing effort at a football match should expect and be prepared to deal with both situations - any all-ticket/sold out match will attract people trying to buy spare tickets and we all know that generally away fans will have a few beers in the lead up to the game. It was the same then as it is now.

 

 

"if you don't let us in, we'll force the gates and wreck your town".

 

You're off your head if you think a govt report was ever going to blame the Liverpool fans in any way. Not great PR and there would be even more uproar than there was anyway.

 

But that line is enough to show that fan agression was a major issue throughout the eighties and was undoubtedly an issue 20 years ago today.

 

The Sth Yorks police cover up is another story and there is still justice to be done and my point is not about anti Liverpool or defending the police.

[Dicko]

That day was my first ever away game

 

I was intoxicated by the atmosphere, the alcohol, and our cracking 2-1 win at Upton Park, but coming home and listening to the death total rise and rise was the most sobering experience of my life

[Saint137]

LOL, do you really think a Tory govt gave a flying **** about a bunch of dead scousers? Maggie hated football fans and Liverpool fans in particular, remember how she reacted to Heysel and the ID card scheme? She had no votes to lose in that city.

[CB Fry]

LOL, do you really think a Tory govt gave a flying **** about a bunch of dead scousers? Maggie hated football fans and Liverpool fans in particular, remember how she reacted to Heysel and the ID card scheme? She had no votes to lose in that city.

 

 

Yawn. A report from a high court judge is hardly going to blame Joe Public is it but what is there shows that fan behaviour being a problem. Its not about Thatcher losing votes in Liverpool. Last time I looked Hillsborough had quite a lot of coverage on the national news as well

 

Don't tell me, Heysel was all those nasty Italians and Dutch peoples fault was it with the saintly wittle Liverpool innocents accidently charging at Juve fans through no fault of their own?

[Arizona]

LOL, do you really think a Tory govt gave a flying **** about a bunch of dead scousers? Maggie hated football fans and Liverpool fans in particular, remember how she reacted to Heysel and the ID card scheme? She had no votes to lose in that city.

 

Sorry, of all the opinions I've seen on this thread, that one is way off. It's comments like that which fuel the "scousers love grief/being victims" stereotypes.

[Legod Third Coming]

I spent Aintree week in Livepool this year, as I have for the last three years. I also work and have close friends there.

 

When going around the city, I find (unlike London) taxi drivers bid me a good evening, shop assistants chat animatedly, bar staff engage in conversation and waiters/waitresses smile and treat me with care and respect - alright sometimes sitting down at the table for a chat is over-familiar, but the point remains.

 

Liverpudlians (in my statistically unsound experience) have a sense of belonging that many of us(especially in the south) simply do not comprehend - like Jews and Isreal. They are fiercely (and rightly) proud of their city, their heritage and their football club(s).

 

It is the idea of blame laid at their door, the door to their city, their people that they feel so keenly because, in reality, it could have been any well supported club on the 15th April 1989 that lost 96 sons, daughters, fathers, brothers, sisters and mothers. It might have been us. Don't kid yourself that only Livepool fans travel to matches without tickets, or have ever surged the gates.

 

The justice they want is an apology.

 

It's not much to ask for a man who said goodbye to his daughters for the last time that day, is it?

 

Are Liverpool fans blameless? Were any of us back then?

[aintforever]

Whilst the fault has to lie with the police the Liverpool fans should accept that their behavior outside the ground did contribute to the disaster.

 

It's nothing against scousers, it could just as easily have been Saints fans but large amounts of drunk fans, mainly young men, do behave in a certain way. If they had just waited in an orderly manner outside the ground the gates wouldn't have been opened.

 

I also think this "Justice for the 96" needs to be brought to a head, the copper ****ed up, changes have been made. Remember the dead, forget the blame, and move on.

[Legod Third Coming]

Whilst the fault has to lie with the police the Liverpool fans should accept that their behavior outside the ground did contribute to the disaster.

 

It's nothing against scousers, it could just as easily have been Saints fans but large amounts of drunk fans, mainly young men, do behave in a certain way. If they had just waited in an orderly manner outside the ground the gates wouldn't have been opened.

 

I also think this "Justice for the 96" needs to be brought to a head, the copper ****ed up, changes have been made. Remember the dead, forget the blame, and move on.

 

You've answered your own argument.

 

Fixed time event. Limited access points. Delayed access. Excitement. Agression. Passion. Alcohol. Un-ticketed attendees.

 

Tell me, what part of this came as a surprise to the police/authorities of the day?

[SFC Forever]

Some people are so blinkered it is pathetic.

I was at Heysal with my eldest stepson of the time.

Why don't you mention the lunatic fringe attacking the Liverpool supporters until they broke ranks and retaliated. There was even a man running up and down waving and shooting a gun in the red's fans direction and yet the only people punished were the English clubs. Unless you are there you cannot report on these things. I am not a Scouser and have only been to three games in Europe where an englishteam was playing. Each time the English supporters were treated like rabid animals because of where we are from.

I was in London working when Hillsborough happened. Trust me you don't want to be in the position where you are freaking out because your son doesn't answer his phone. His mum was permanently on mine asking if I had heard from him.

It took him three days to come back to London. He was broken and completely destroyed through the loss of some of his fellow supporters. Some of whom he had bonded with in a football fan way. If you actually get the chance to see the start of the game you will see that Bruce Grobalaar stopped playing long before the ref stopped the game. He saw the people being crushed and reacted by trying to help pull people out.

So if you want to spout your mouth make damn sure you know what you are talking about. The police were blamed by everybody except those with blinkers on. I have my son and several eye to eye oral accounts of what happened and believe me it still happens. Last season Man Utd fans were violently attacked by the police was that acceptable. No and again no.

We have to remember scenes like those as it should help us steer free from such things re-occuring. Violence is never acceptable and should always be stopped but sometimes the people retaliating are not the cause.

Sorry for going on but a nerve was touched.

[SFC Forever]

The police did not allow the gates to be opened early enough for the late arrival of a large contingent of Pool fans to enter safely.

[Bald Headed Jesus]

Some of the attitudes on this thread beggar belief!

I will be there on Saturday and I will remember the 96 football fans who died, regardless of race, creed or club.

 

Nuff said!

 

Agreed. CB Fry clearly has a boulder-sized chip on his shoulder.

[aintforever]

You've answered your own argument.

 

Fixed time event. Limited access points. Delayed access. Excitement. Agression. Passion. Alcohol. Un-ticketed attendees.

 

Tell me, what part of this came as a surprise to the police/authorities of the day?

 

They were obviously surprised by the crush outside the ground, some rozzer thought he was being clever but screwed up big time. The police were completely at fault, but to say the actions of the fans didn't contribute is rubbish, to cause a crush like that outside the ground people need to be pushing.

[Legod Third Coming]

They were obviously surprised by the crush outside the ground, some rozzer thought he was being clever but screwed up big time. The police were completely at fault, but to say the actions of the fans didn't contribute is rubbish, to cause a crush like that outside the ground people need to be pushing.

 

If there were no fans there no one would have died would they. Crowds push. Try getting down the underground at Waterloo at 7am and then tell me if you need to be a ****ed up football fan. All it takes is numbers, not actions - numbers.

[Fan The Flames]

Agreed. CB Fry clearly has a boulder-sized chip on his shoulder.

 

I don't like slagging fellow posters off but CB Fry's tone always gets on my tits, he chooses to ignore the part of the report that states ticketless fans were not to blame and instead repeats a quote that wasn't even attributed to Liverpool fans.

[Johnny Bognor]

I'll repeat - if there weren't thousands of ****ed up and ticketless scousers hanging around the ground this would not have happened, regardless of what happened subsequently.

 

Lets put the ticketless fans point to bed....

 

Liverpool had far larger support than Forest at the time, so what do the authorities do?

 

Give the larger kop end to Forest and the smaller away terrace to Liverpool. If the authorities had given the larger capacity stand to the larger support, perhaps there wouldn't have been ticketless fans in the first place.

 

The authorities (both the organisers and police) made monumental ****-ups (and they know it!). It was their job to deal with crowd control, that was what they were paid to do and they ****ed up - simple as that.

 

It reminds me of when we had Millwall in the cup in 2003 - too many Millwall fans turned up. What do the authorities do? Place 500 of Millwall's finest in the Itchen corner with about 5 stewards seperating them from us. I was actually glad we did not score in the first half, because if we had, there could have been major problems. Who would be to blame? The authorities that made the decision.

Edited 15 April, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[aintforever]

If there were no fans there no one would have died would they. Crowds push. Try getting down the underground at Waterloo at 7am and then tell me if you need to be a ****ed up football fan. All it takes is numbers, not actions - numbers.

 

I disagree, I think behavior is an important factor, agree it was the police's duty to deal with that though.

[Arizona]

Lets put the ticketless fans point to bed....

 

Liverpool had far larger support than Forest at the time, so what do the authorities do?

 

Give the larger kop end to Forest and the smaller away terrace to Liverpool. If the authorities had given the larger capacity stand to the larger support, perhaps there wouldn't have been ticketless fans in the first place.

 

The authorities (both the organisers and police) made monumental ****-ups (and they know it!). It was their job to deal with crowd control, that was what they were paid to do and they ****ed up - simple as that.

 

It reminds me of when we had Millwall in the cup in 2003 - too many Millwall fans turned up. What do the authorities do? Place 500 of Millwall's finest in the Itchen corner with about 5 stewards seperating them from us. I was actually glad we did not score in the first half, because if we had, there could have been major problems. Who would be to blame? The authorities that made the decision.

 

You seem to be just bundling the Police and the club into one big, 'evil people' group under the badge "authorities". Since when have the Police and stewards had anything to do with ticket allocation?

 

This is the point I am trying to make, which seems to be repeatedly ignored by people who just want to blame the Police. There were several factors which when combined lead to the tragic accident of that day. This isn't f**king Auschwitz. The Police didn't force all the fans into the stadium and gas them.

 

I'll try and explain this in the most basic way I can.

 

ALL these things needed to happen for the Hillsborough disaster to take place:

 

1. The stadium was fundamentally flawed in that there were fences, terraces and insufficient turnstiles.

 

2. The largest section of the stadium wasn't allocated to the largest number of fans.

 

3. There wasn't sufficient Policing to control the number of fans.

 

4. The police made fundamental errors, most notably opening the exit and only allowing one ambulance on the pitch.

 

5. The traffic jam which delayed supporters, meaning everyone arrived at the same time.

 

6. The large number of fans, some fueled by alcohol, some without tickets, trying to force their way in before kick off.

 

If ANY of these things hadn't happened, the disaster most likely would have been avoided.

 

The Liverpool fans demands for justice are tragic in themselves, in that I'm really not sure what kind of 'justice' they hope to acheive. The Police were largely, but not wholely responsible. They were condemned by the Taylor report, they accepted they had some responsibility and the head of the S. Yorks Police offered his resignation. Short of public stonings or disbanding the Police force, I really do not know what outcome they're after.

[Legod Third Coming]

You seem to be just bundling the Police and the club into one big, 'evil people' group under the badge "authorities". Since when have the Police and stewards had anything to do with ticket allocation?

 

This is the point I am trying to make, which seems to be repeatedly ignored by people who just want to blame the Police. There were several factors which when combined lead to the tragic accident of that day. This isn't f**king Auschwitz. The Police didn't force all the fans into the stadium and gas them.

 

I'll try and explain this in the most basic way I can.

 

ALL these things needed to happen for the Hillsborough disaster to take place:

 

1. The stadium was fundamentally flawed in that there were fences, terraces and insufficient turnstiles.

 

2. The largest section of the stadium wasn't allocated to the largest number of fans.

 

3. There wasn't sufficient Policing to control the number of fans.

 

4. The police made fundamental errors, most notably opening the exit and only allowing one ambulance on the pitch.

 

5. The traffic jam which delayed supporters, meaning everyone arrived at the same time.

 

6. The large number of fans, some fueled by alcohol, some without tickets, trying to force their way in before kick off.

 

If ANY of these things hadn't happened, the disaster most likely would have been avoided.

 

The Liverpool fans demands for justice are tragic in themselves, in that I'm really not sure what kind of 'justice' they hope to acheive. The Police were largely, but not wholely responsible. They were condemned by the Taylor report, they accepted they had some responsibility and the head of the S. Yorks Police offered his resignation. Short of public stonings or disbanding the Police force, I really do not know what outcome they're after.

 

 

Like most accidents, not one of the factors you outline is beyond the prediction of anyone with a history of understanding fixed time events and their management and control. That is fundamentally the role of the police in regard to this tragedy.

 

I am sure you can actually understand that all a father who lost two teenage daughters wants is someone to take responsibility for their actions and apologise to his face.

 

Will it give him closure? I doubt it.

 

I don't 'blame' the police in the sense that we are all human and all wise after the event and any one of us might have made an equally ill-judged decision in the circumstances.

 

But crowds aren't a thousand individuals making choices. Crowds have a life of their own. And those responsible for managing crowds have a primary duty of care to their safety.

 

You might as well say, if there had been no game, the tragedy could have been avoided, because nothing you list as contributory was unusual at any football game of this magnitude in 1989.

Edited 15 April, 2009 by Legod Third Coming

[rallyboy]

I could never understand how the police could stand on the pitch perimeter and watch people die, yet senior officers did nothing to halt it.

 

People make mistakes under pressure, sometimes they apologise and give people closure.

 

Other times they fabricate a new version of events or muddy the waters with conjecture and irrelevant information to protect themselves.

 

Sorry would go a long way.

 

As for dragging up the Sun's anti-scouse agenda, if you wouldn't say it to the face of a parent who buried their child after that game, maybe best you don't post it here either.

[Arizona]

Like most accidents, not one of the factors you outline is beyond the prediction of anyone with a history of understanding fixed time events and their management and control. That is fundamentally the role of the police in regard to this tragedy.

 

I am sure you can actually understand that all a father who lost two teenage daughters wants is someone to take responsibility for their actions and apologise to his face.

 

Will it give him closure? I doubt it.

 

I don't 'blame' the police in the sense that we are all human and all wise after the event and any one of us might have made an equally ill-judged decision in the circumstances.

 

But crowds aren't a thousand individuals making choices. Crowds have a life of their own. And those responsible for managing crowds have a primary duty of care to their safety.

 

You might as well say, if there had been no game, the tragedy could have been avoided, because nothing you list as contributory was unusual at any football game of this magnitude in 1989.

 

Those factors could have been predicted, yes it's a very good point. However the fact that nobody DID predict those events, doesn't nescessarily lay the blame at the Police.

 

You could have the best laid out plan to deal with crowds (and I know the SYPD didn't) but things can still go wrong. For example, there were normally Police inside the grounds, directing fans to the further away pens and relieve crowd congestion. Under the circumnstances, with the stadiums as badly designed as they were, that seems like a very reasonable plan.

 

Large crowded grounds, with pens, terraces etc. were common and 99.9% of matches were conducted with relative coordination and calm. It was just a few individual mistakes, like opening the exit, which triggered the tragedy.

 

No amount of Policing and planning could have made stands like the Leppings Lane End in the 1980s 100% safe.

[Viking Warrior]

Its too easy to blame the police for what happened 20 years ago.

 

Even the BBC and the bloody liberal do gooders are still blaming the police for the death of those fans today.

 

Yes its tragic and as somebody else has pointed out, holiganism was rife hence the fences being put up. but hen there were a groups of fans who were also culpable for what happened

 

On a side note there was a huge memorial service held in aberdeen today for the victims of the helicopter crash. It made the local news but played second fiddle on the national news to the hillsborough disaster. Just shows you how much the media influence our lives. something that happened 20 years ago is more important than very recent events

[Blanco Saint]

I listened to the last part of the service at Anfield today on 5 live, saw a few bits on the news tonight and read the vews on this thread.

 

What really resonates with me, is that this was a football/human disaster and i found it hard not to feel very tearful and reflective. We are all football fans and therefore share and shared something with all those who were involved in this disaster.

 

It seems totally surreal that you could send your son or daughter to a Saints game and never see them again? and there death would have been largely avoidable. How would you have felt 20 years ago if this happened? And how do you think you would feel now?

Edited 15 April, 2009 by Blanco Saint
now is now not know

[Johnny Bognor]

You seem to be just bundling the Police and the club into one big, 'evil people' group under the badge "authorities". Since when have the Police and stewards had anything to do with ticket allocation?

 

This is the point I am trying to make, which seems to be repeatedly ignored by people who just want to blame the Police. There were several factors which when combined lead to the tragic accident of that day. This isn't f**king Auschwitz. The Police didn't force all the fans into the stadium and gas them.

 

I don't disagree with what you say. The Police have taken the brunt of the blame, but my point was that the authorities (which includes the Police) were also to blame. I did also mention the organisers and so the FA aren't free from blame either. All of those responsible for the big decisions surrounding that tie and organising the day have to shoulder the majority of the responsibility - that is what they are paid (by us as taxpayers or football fans) to do.

[Saint137]

Arizona, the police were solely responsible for deciding that Liverpool got the Leppings Lane, the reason being that geographically it made sense as it was nearest the trans-pennine routes. They were given the same end the previous year for the same reason.

 

There are two reasons why the campaign continues:

 

1. Duckenfield (the policeman in control) avoided disciplinary action by taking early retirement on medical grounds with a full pension, something that has happened time and time again in cases of police misconduct.

 

2. The inquest cut off all evidence at 3.15, claiming that all victims were dead by then. The families claim that people were alive after this time, and died due to the actions of the police in not letting sufficient numbers of paramedics/ambulances on to the pitch. Independent police and medical staff witnesses initially backed this up but changed their testimony, allegedly under pressure from West Midlands police who were leading the investigation into police actions.

[Frank's cousin]

From all I have read on this, it seems there was an concerted effort by authorities to blame fans for the tragedy and not accept any responsibilty for the it. The morals or ethics in some ways are irrelevent a sthe Police have a duty of care to control and manage these sitautions IRRESPECTIVE of the behaviour of the crowd. Its why the police are there in the fitrst place as indeed stewards - They failed in that duty of care in a number of reasons as gighlighted numerous times by numerous people. The Liverpool fans do deserve an apology from these authorities for that failure.

 

BUt we also have the more tricky and controversial questions remaining: Do fans have a responsibilty as well? If their behaviour had been different, would teh same thing have occured? I dont know, but I do get teh impression that these are questions the fans dont want to ask themselves, and I can understand why, its a tragic set of circumstances that led to this - and no one would want to think they had any part in it, but if there is to be closure and a thorough understanding of these events as tehy unfolded, the questions DO need to be asked. That is not blaming fans or assuming anything.