Administration - Good or Bad?

[up and away]

I refuse to believe it's just the incompetence of Lowe that led to this, they would have known what Barclay's plans were, they would have known exactly when we were to go over our overdraft.

 

IMO Lowe put the club into admin a few days after the deadline either out of spite, or for some other reason.

 

Can anyone else offer a logical explanation as to why we would enter administration just a few days after the critical deadline?

 

Which critical dead line are you referring to? From Barclay's point of view the closure of the loan window may well have been their line in the sand? Still too many high earners with little chance of getting rid of them until the start of next season with no revenue coming in?

 

Looking back at previous League precedents and taking into account that Saints actually obtained FL clarification, I do not believe we will suffer a 10 points deduction unless the actual football club goes into administration. If the FL were to try and deduct Saints points without the club going into administration, they would be liable to redress in the courts or possibly the option of having that 10 point deduction applied to this season.

 

You can also look at the failure to sell off our young stars to avoid this predicament, but in reality it would only be a delay with the type of money being offered. The process we were under with Lowe was a long term plan as soon as we failed to get fees / remove wages of the high earners last summer. If someone buys the club now, all those players will be available and assets for either the short or long term.

 

If we can find a buyer for this club things look far better than what the imagination has been throwing at us. We would start next season without any points deductions, all players in the squad available for selection the remainder of this season and the ability to get decent fees for those players at a later date. The only down side is that we will still have too many high earners on the books and looking odds on for relegation.

[Weston Saint]

As far as I can tell it was Barclays action that put us into Administration.

 

Having told the club that the present overdraft would be ok until July they then recently moved the goal posts and reduced that limit insisting on immediate action to reduce.

 

Frantic work by Lowe, Cowens and many behind the scenes failed to find the money required but even the day after the points deadline they were still working to save the situation. Then came the bank bouncing cheques. That was the signal we were no longer a going concern. Even on the day of the announcement the decision was delayed to give one avenue a final attempt to prove finances. Sadly that too failed.

 

Administration is a disaster but we cannot turn back the clock. Let us hope that this is what a friend of mine calls "a detox of the club" We may come out of it fitter financially but, in my opinion, we will be frail and scarred IF we have a club at all. My friend does not share my pessimism. I hope he is right.

 

Let me point out I am not having a go at Barclays. There are many factors but they pushed us over the cliff

Edited 13 April, 2009 by Weston Saint
Added last sentence

[um pahars]

As far as I can tell it was Barclays action that put us into Administration.

 

Having told the club that the present overdraft would be ok until July they then recently moved the goal posts and reduced that limit insisting on immediate action to reduce.

 

Frantic work by Lowe, Cowens and many behind the scenes failed to find the money required but even the day after the points deadline they were still working to save the situation. Then came the bank bouncing cheques. That was the signal we were no longer a going concern. Even on the day of the announcement the decision was delayed to give one avenue a final attempt to prove finances. Sadly that too failed.

 

Administration is a disaster but we cannot turn back the clock. Let us hope that this is what a friend of mine calls "a detox of the club" We may come out of it fitter financially but, in my opinion, we will be frail and scarred IF we have a club at all. My friend does not share my pessimism. I hope he is right.

 

Let me point out I am not having a go at Barclays. There are many factors but they pushed us over the cliff

 

Didn't they move the goalposts 5/6 months ago??? I was under the impression the overdraft was reduced by £1m back in early October.

 

If we were OK to meet their £5m overdraft limit, then I would have thought it was not beyond the realms of man to bring in £1m in those intervening months (even if it meant selling some talent in January).

[Weston Saint]

Didn't they move the goalposts 5/6 months ago??? I was under the impression the overdraft was reduced by £1m back in early October.

 

If we were OK to meet their £5m overdraft limit, then I would have thought it was not beyond the realms of man to bring in £1m in those intervening months (even if it meant selling some talent in January).

That is not what I was told. The overdraft was reduced by the club back end of last year but rising again thereafter. That was when the "goalposts" were moved it has been told to me. If Dave Jones has told you different I would be interested to know.

[SW11_Saint]

The other underlying issue in all of this is that we've known for years that without significant investment we were royally f00ked. So after Hone, Hoos, Crouch etc. openly kept the search going for new investors, why did Lowe, Wilde and co not do any proactive work in finding new investors?

 

I remember remarking to friends, and posting on here, that Lowe's initial statement on coming back into power made no reference whatsoever to "looking for investment" - it was all about him (surprise surprise!) and his revolutionary new coaching set-up. I got the distinct feeling that he felt his bizarre plan could get us out of trouble, and no doubt he was looking forward to "proving us all wrong". I felt then that the die was cast and it was just a matter of time before the inevitable happened. And it did.

 

So again, all of this could have been avoided if Lowe had put is ego to one side for once and openly stated that the club were still looking for investment, and had delegated someone to follow-up. We are now paying the price for this short-sighted failure.

Edited 13 April, 2009 by SW11_Saint

[Guided Missile]

That is not what I was told. The overdraft was reduced by the club back end of last year but rising again thereafter. That was when the "goalposts" were moved it has been told to me. If Dave Jones has told you different I would be interested to know.

Ron, it amazes me that Dave Jones gives you, a retired insurance manager and Steve, a former Finance Director and now a "downshifted" teacher, details of the cashflow problems of a listed company, before shareholders like me and more importantly AIM.

It also amazes me that he is STILL in a position that involves having anything to do with the finances of the club. It's like putting OJ Simpson in charge of the police department investigating his wife's murder...

[um pahars]

That is not what I was told. The overdraft was reduced by the club back end of last year but rising again thereafter. That was when the "goalposts" were moved it has been told to me. If Dave Jones has told you different I would be interested to know.

 

When Lowe returned in May they agreed a recovery plan and a £5m overdraft with Barclays and the agreement was that as long as the Club remained within a "certain parameters" the bank would support the Club .

 

In September Barclays informed the Directors that the overdraft facility would be cut from £5m to £4m.

 

I think Lowe confirmed this in his recent interviews.

[um pahars]

Ron, it amazes me that Dave Jones gives you, a retired insurance manager and Steve, a former Finance Director and now a "downshifted" teacher, details of the cashflow problems of a listed company, before shareholders like me and more importantly AIM.

It also amazes me that he is STILL in a position that involves having anything to do with the finances of the club. It's like putting OJ Simpson in charge of the police department investigating his wife's murder...

 

What are you bitter about today???

 

The realisation that attendances rise and fall due to a myriad of reasons, or, the fact that your understanding of Rule 34 was found to be so wanting LMFAO.

 

Move along and indulge yourself on your new thread (I was going to mention that maybe Rule 34 might have prevented the pay offs you are so aghast about;)).

 

Just let it go fella as your littel snidey digs just show you up to be ever so Murphy's :cool:

[alpine_saint]

Ron, it amazes me that Dave Jones gives you, a retired insurance manager and Steve, a former Finance Director and now a "downshifted" teacher, details of the cashflow problems of a listed company, before shareholders like me and more importantly AIM.

It also amazes me that he is STILL in a position that involves having anything to do with the finances of the club. It's like putting OJ Simpson in charge of the police department investigating his wife's murder...

 

Agree with this 100%

[Weston Saint]

Ron, it amazes me that Dave Jones gives you, a retired insurance manager and Steve, a former Finance Director and now a "downshifted" teacher, details of the cashflow problems of a listed company, before shareholders like me and more importantly AIM.

It also amazes me that he is STILL in a position that involves having anything to do with the finances of the club. It's like putting OJ Simpson in charge of the police department investigating his wife's murder...

My information does not come via David Jones. As Financial Director of the plc, nor should it. As you say the AIM and Shareholders come first.

 

It matters not now anyway. My sources are no longer sources.

[um pahars]

My information does not come via David Jones. As Financial Director of the plc, nor should it. As you say the AIM and Shareholders come first.

 

It matters not now anyway. My sources are no longer sources.

 

And for the record, my source of the above information was Rupert Lowe himself.

[Nineteen Canteen]

What are you bitter about today???

 

The realisation that attendances rise and fall due to a myriad of reasons, or, the fact that your understanding of Rule 34 was found to be so wanting LMFAO.

 

Move along and indulge yourself on your new thread (I was going to mention that maybe Rule 34 might have prevented the pay offs you are so aghast about;)).

 

Just let it go fella as your littel snidey digs just show you up to be ever so Murphy's :cool:

 

Stephen it seems to me that you and your little pal Dave will soon be out of the loop for good and that can only be good news for the club, this forum and those who are weary of alledged ITKers. Steve Grant is involved with SoS in a senior capacity and like you had a high profile with the Trust so why have you not been invited to the party? Balance? See you at the game with your text books.

[um pahars]

See you at the game

 

Not in the Itchen South you won't;) You know, where you saw me back in January, despite not sitting there and of course only knowing who I was a couple of days ago:smt119:rolleyes::smt119:rolleyes: You need to be consistent Troll boy.

 

Do you have a number of tickets for your multiple personas???

 

(and please, no more PM's, you're clogging up my inbox).

[SW11_Saint]

RIt's like putting OJ Simpson in charge of the police department investigating his wife's murder...

Or like inviting Rupert Lowe back to "help us out" of our current predicament!!

[trousers]

Now that the inevitable has happened, I wonder what people think, now that they reflect on the consequences. Many on this board have been campaigning for administration for a long time,as a way of ridding the club of a personality they disliked and reducing the debt in some way. Some, myself included, viewed it as the worst of all outcomes, demoralising for the players and employees, with uncertainty replacing hope.

 

The team look shattered to me, with their confidence destroyed. I can't see an alternative to relegation and a long, long fight to rebuild the club and a continual risk that the team will spend as long in Division One/Two as it did in the Premiership/Championship.

 

I wonder how many of the posters that wanted administration will say that the situation we are in now, is a good place to be. I also wonder what the true "surge" of support has been since Lowe has gone and the "fans" fighting for his removal flooded back to St. Marys. Cue replies of "It's too early to tell". That won't wash for me, because there is no way this course will ever be better than if the fans had kept going and administration had been avoided.

 

They say be careful what you wish for, as it may come true. Never has this been more apt...

 

Interesting to read back through people's feelings about Administration back the spring. (not picking up solely on your post GM but just quoting your opening post as something to latch onto)

 

Anyone changed their views on the perils of Administration yet?

 

I personally would rather be where we are now than where we might of been had we managed to avoid administration by the skin of our teeth. It was the only way of getting a regime change and by jimminey do we now have a top notch regime.

Edited 1 October, 2009 by trousers

[saintds]

Interesting to read back through people's feelings about Administration back the spring. (not picking up solely on your post GM but just quoting your opening post as something to latch onto)

 

Anyone changed their views on the perils of Administration yet?

 

I personally would rather be where we are now than where we might of been had we managed to avoid administration by the skin of our teeth. It was the only way of getting a regime change and by jimminey do we now have a top notch regime.

 

I hated the thought of going down the administration route and would have to say the close season (and pre-season) for me was without doubt the worst I have experienced as a 34 year old Saints fan.

 

But hasn't it all turned out lovely?! Hindsight and all that...

[trousers]

I hated the thought of going down the administration route and would have to say the close season (and pre-season) for me was without doubt the worst I have experienced as a 34 year old Saints fan.

 

But hasn't it all turned out lovely?! Hindsight and all that...

 

Not forgetting those who had the foresight to believe it would work out ok in the end....

[alpine_saint]

Interesting to read back through people's feelings about Administration back the spring. (not picking up solely on your post GM but just quoting your opening post as something to latch onto)

 

Anyone changed their views on the perils of Administration yet?

 

I personally would rather be where we are now than where we might of been had we managed to avoid administration by the skin of our teeth. It was the only way of getting a regime change and by jimminey do we now have a top notch regime.

 

Do you also remember the horrendous abuse those of us who advocated this route all along received from fellow posters ?

[S-Clarke]

Administration is a risk for anyone.

 

For us, we're damn lucky to end up with what we have.

 

but just think about how close we came to having nothing during the process? Administration attracts so many tyre kickers it's untrue, looking to make a quick buck on refinancing a club (the company who came in at the end looking for a quick deal are a good example...and then we have pinnacle)

 

I wouldn't want to go through it again, it wasn't fun and at times you thought it was all over and we'd have to find something else to do on Saturdays.

 

It's not a good thing to go through, but we're lucky we came out of it with a real positive future.

[trousers]

Do you also remember the horrendous abuse those of us who advocated this route all along received from fellow posters ?

 

Yep, although they do now have a valid point in that it could equally have not turned out alright. But there were definately more people with a closed mind in the "admin is never a good thing" camp than those with a slightly more opened mind in the "it could well be the best thing" camp. My intuition was always telling me that admin would end up being a good thing in the long run. Neither hindsight nor foresight. Just a gut feeling at the time.

[trousers]

Administration is a risk for anyone.

 

For us, we're damn lucky to end up with what we have.

 

but just think about how close we came to having nothing during the process? Administration attracts so many tyre kickers it's untrue, looking to make a quick buck on refinancing a club (the company who came in at the end looking for a quick deal are a good example...and then we have pinnacle)

 

I wouldn't want to go through it again, it wasn't fun and at times you thought it was all over and we'd have to find something else to do on Saturdays.

 

It's not a good thing to go through, but we're lucky we came out of it with a real positive future.

 

What was it that Gary Player used to say about making your own luck...? ;-)

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

In fairness we had a miracle escape with a fairy tale ending. In the middle of a a horrendous economic crisis we find a Swiss Billionaire. He seems sensible and not as egotistical as some. Administration was a good thing but it should really have been a terrible thing.

 

How many current clubs would want to be in our situation. Yes we may be bottom of league one but we all know that with our resources we will be climbing back up the league.

[solentstars]

I hated the thought of going down the administration route and would have to say the close season (and pre-season) for me was without doubt the worst I have experienced as a 34 year old Saints fan.

 

But hasn't it all turned out lovely?! Hindsight and all that...

yes we got lucky but we were not far of joining salisbury in the conference,i would not wish admin on anyone .

[Wes Tender]

Yep, although they do now have a valid point in that it could equally have not turned out alright. But there were definately more people with a closed mind in the "admin is never a good thing" camp than those with a slightly more opened mind in the "it could well be the best thing" camp. My intuition was always telling me that admin would end up being a good thing in the long run. Neither hindsight nor foresight. Just a gut feeling at the time.

 

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, trousers. Whatever became of Misguided, eh? Presumably nothing untoward to dig up about Liebherr and Cortese. Perhaps Jonah has disappeared for the same reasons, as neither can find anything to be critical of regarding the way that things are being run now.

 

My gut feeling was similar to yours. I hesitated when contemplating the smaller businesses that supply the club who might have lost money through administration, but if I'm correct, Marcus has repaid all those debts and quite possibly continues to deal with those suppliers who can now have absolute faith in the new people.

 

The -10 points deduction and the relegation were a price worth paying to be rid of those charlatans for ever more. I still believe that we could have stayed up and avoided administration had Crouch remained in charge and we had kept Pearson. But the way things have turned out is much better than where we would have been under that scenario, particularly as certain corrosive elements would still have retained their shares. I also believe that the chain of events set in motion by the return of Wilde as Lowe's poodle, the bizarre experiment with JP and Wotte and the youngsters, caused sufficient numbers to stay away and make the whole thing unsustainable financially, thus precipitating the events that led to our current situation.

 

At the time, we were accused of being muppets, ruining the club. It might have gone very badly, but it didn't. In fact, it went better than anybody could possibly have hoped for. I hesitate to recommend it as a way of getting rid of the fake shiek down the road, should they grow to despise their owner, as I don't think that there is a billionaire on the planet who would consider them a good prospect for serious investment.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Do you also remember the horrendous abuse those of us who advocated this route all along received from fellow posters ?

 

It might have gone very badly, but it didn't. In fact, it went better than anybody could possibly have hoped for

 

Noone could have seen the eventual outcome, however, many had the foresight to see all the crap that happened prior to ML, luck ? judgement ? I am grateful for where we are now but certainly would not advocate the twists and turns which admin brought.

[alpine_saint]

Yep, although they do now have a valid point in that it could equally have not turned out alright. But there were definately more people with a closed mind in the "admin is never a good thing" camp than those with a slightly more opened mind in the "it could well be the best thing" camp. My intuition was always telling me that admin would end up being a good thing in the long run. Neither hindsight nor foresight. Just a gut feeling at the time.

 

I was convinced that a genuine buyer would come forward at some point.

 

The club has a huge catchment area, good facilities, and a good name in the sport.

 

I simply could not see a future with no SFC.

 

Sure, I was a frustrated as the most avid anti-admin person with the time-wasting and twists-and-turns, but I always felt it would happen.

 

The club has a great future, despite the current mis-firings of the manager and players, that it was NEVER going to have under Lowe, Wilde, Askham and co.

[John B]

I was convinced that a genuine buyer would come forward at some point.

 

The club has a huge catchment area, good facilities, and a good name in the sport.

 

I simply could not see a future with no SFC.

 

Sure, I was a frustrated as the most avid anti-admin person with the time-wasting and twists-and-turns, but I always felt it would happen.

 

The club has a great future, despite the current mis-firings of the manager and players, that it was NEVER going to have under Lowe, Wilde, Askham and co.

 

Very true a modern stadium large fanbase good training facilities a bargain.

 

 

I never really felt in the Wilde / Crouch era that somebody was going to come and invest millions to buy the shares service the debts and buy better players.

 

 

From my point of view at the moment administration was good but not for the shareholders , people who lost their jobs and suppliers who were not paid plus of course MLT TL and Mr Crouch again.

 

 

It was also good for Begbies Traynor

[SaintRobbie]

Administration.

 

Ironically was Lowe's fault.

 

Ironically ridded us of a failed regime and failed chairman and manager.

 

Ironically ridded us of debt.

 

Ironically ridded us of a plc that had gradually been killing the club.

 

Administration and Barclays will be seen to have been the best thing that ever happened to this club.... ironically.

[Wes Tender]

From my point of view at the moment administration was good but not for the shareholders , people who lost their jobs and suppliers who were not paid plus of course MLT TL and Mr Crouch again.

 

The major shareholders I have little sympathy for. Some like Lowe and Cowan probably took out more in salary than they lost in shares. The directors from the original old board involved in the reverse takeover, I have even less sympathy for and anyway, the value of those shares was minimal at £1 a share originally. For example, that only cost an investment of about £2/3000 for Askham and he was compensated with the best seat in the house for years. It's a shame that he didn't lose much more for bringing about the Lowe regime, but never having to have the likes of him associated with us ever again is reward enough, I suppose.

 

As for the smaller shareholders, many like me and my son only really held a token shareholding and would gladly give that up to have somebody like Liebherr own the club.

 

Who really lost their job that is worthy of concern? Wotte, yes, but so what? Many of the backroom staff gained job security when their futures had seemed to be in doubt and I suspect that staff numbers have actually risen now.

 

As for the suppliers, as I mentioned earlier, unless I'm mistaken, weren't they all paid by Liebherr? I also hope that the services of most will have been retianed provided that their prices are competitive.

[John B]

The major shareholders I have little sympathy for. Some like Lowe and Cowan probably took out more in salary than they lost in shares. The directors from the original old board involved in the reverse takeover, I have even less sympathy for and anyway, the value of those shares was minimal at £1 a share originally. For example, that only cost an investment of about £2/3000 for Askham and he was compensated with the best seat in the house for years. It's a shame that he didn't lose much more for bringing about the Lowe regime, but never having to have the likes of him associated with us ever again is reward enough, I suppose.

 

As for the smaller shareholders, many like me and my son only really held a token shareholding and would gladly give that up to have somebody like Liebherr own the club.

 

Who really lost their job that is worthy of concern? Wotte, yes, but so what? Many of the backroom staff gained job security when their futures had seemed to be in doubt and I suspect that staff numbers have actually risen now.

 

As for the suppliers, as I mentioned earlier, unless I'm mistaken, weren't they all paid by Liebherr? I also hope that the services of most will have been retianed provided that their prices are competitive.

 

Well that is OK then if nobody lost any money or lost their job but highly unlikely I would have thought

[Wes Tender]

Well that is OK then if nobody lost any money or lost their job but highly unlikely I would have thought

 

I'd be genuinely interested to hear whether any jobs (backroom staff) were actually lost or any suppliers not paid. As for managers or share investment, that is the risk they take in football.

[John B]

I'd be genuinely interested to hear whether any jobs (backroom staff) were actually lost or any suppliers not paid. As for managers or share investment, that is the risk they take in football.

 

Sorry I meant jobs being lost up to Administration .