warsash saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 What a spineless, gutless bunch they are at the Football Legaue. :mad: Instead of actually making a decision for themselves, they are hoping we make it for them by getting relegated. Either have the balls to say rules are rules and no points deduction is necessary or clearly state that Saints businesses are interwinded & thus a 10 point dedcuction will be dished out.....DON'T sit behind a pathetic statement stating that an investigation will take place into Saint accounts which will take 4 weeks when a 5 minute call to the Administrators will tell clearly explain how they are structured. Meanwhile us fans are left in limbo........we get releagted then fair enough BUT should the impossible happen & we survive, we are gonna have a nightmare waiting for the useless FL to grow some b*llocks.
stevegrant Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Personally I think it suggests the opposite. They are fairly sure that the club and the PLC are one and the same in all but name (which in my opinion they effectively are!) and are looking to see if the club can provide any evidence to the contrary. But then they'd have just asked the club to do so, rather than spending a fortune trying to prove that they are the same... I'm with Jimmy_D on this one, I reckon they're ****ting themselves because they've got nothing on us and so they announce that they're going to get some forensic accountants to look into it but that it might take weeks, which allows time for the season to finish, where they'll be hoping we get relegated anyway, so they can just brush it all under the carpet and pretend it never happened. We could make the next few months very very uncomfortable for the Football League here...
dubai_phil Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Hmm Quick - somebody dig out ALL those hundreds of threads and posts where we all moaned and groaned about having TWO separate boards, about some people being on one board and not the other. How we moaned that they would pocket two sets of expenses or how we had to pay out extra salaries Gosh darn it even the FANS could see that we were all split up and we MOANED ABOUT IT AGES AGO! Could TSW save the day and provide some additional information? What happened to all the old S4E threads - doh (slim chance is always better than no chance!)
Doctoroncall Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 They must be praying we're relegated asap, then they can wash their hands of the matter without any complaints from other clubs. I wouldn't be expecting any favours from referees this season. not really, the points could still apply next season. This is where Alpine is right about a slow process... having a urgent agenda item on the next meeting (glad it was so soon) to come up with an independant forensic investigation of the accounts. That surely was a given and didn't need a committee to decide!
SaintDonkey Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 I wonder whether Mr Doncaster has excluded himself from the deliberations as an 'interested party'? I'm supposing as a solicitor he's savvy enough to have done so but if not I guess it would be grounds for appeal against any decision against us. Say we somehow escape the relegation places at Norwich's expense, but then the Football League board including the Norwich Chairman slap us with a ten point penalty? We could be in limbo for months sorting that out!
INFLUENCED.COM Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Forensic accountants...FA? Lets hope they give the job to Barry(briefcase) Beardall
St Marco Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 But then they'd have just asked the club to do so, rather than spending a fortune trying to prove that they are the same... I'm with Jimmy_D on this one, I reckon they're ****ting themselves because they've got nothing on us and so they announce that they're going to get some forensic accountants to look into it but that it might take weeks, which allows time for the season to finish, where they'll be hoping we get relegated anyway, so they can just brush it all under the carpet and pretend it never happened. We could make the next few months very very uncomfortable for the Football League here... I see it the other way really. The way i see it the FL want to get the forensics in to look at every single penny that has been spent and where it has been spent. The records on the site wont tell you that, it just shows you what the club says. As i predicted and said the other day the FL will set up a review/enquiry. This will be to see not only how we have got to this situation but to see if we have broken any of their rules. The legal team will look through the legal process and come back with their view but more importantly their findings. I have no doubt whatsoever that they will return and say we have broken xyz rule. And then if they hit us with a points deduction they will be prepared for the legal appeals from us if that happens. It will be up to us to prove the two entities are different and don't rely on one another. That is the only thing we have to defend ourselves with and it will be ripped apart. It is my opinion that the FL know that the club and company are the same, they know that really the finances of the company and the club are the same, without the club the company would probably not excist. They are just covering all the bases and doing it properly. With all the legal court cases over the past few years due to screw ups by the FA i think the FL will not want to follow suit. They will want a decision that will lead to the end of it. If they came out today and said "Saints are not guilty, no points deduction", then all those clubs would sue the FL for their own punishments in the past. If they came out and said "Saints are guilty and get xyz points deduction" then we would most likely start a legal case. It would make no sense to rush a decision without actually knowing the situation first. So im pretty sure the FL know they have us lock stock and barrel, proving the club and company are the same will be very easy for them to do. If they do that and have it locked down in the sense they present all the legal findings to back it up by their forensics team will leave the club with little room to manouver. They will say you broke this rule and here is the proof you did it, here is the legal findings to support it, and here are the legal recomendations from xyz team. They could then potentially make an example out of us, maybe even set up a new rule etc to stop it happening again. Like saying if we persue it and are found to still be guilty the punishment can be increased such as how appeals work. At the end of the day it makes no difference to the FL if we are docked points or not. They simply are there to make sure we have not broken the league rules. They are there to represent all the clubs in the league and act with their interests. If we get relegated then it just means we drift from the limelight, it won't be as important to report on. As others have mentioned look at Luton. They are going to drop out of the football league this season. The FL hit them hard. Showing they will take those decisions if they feel they have to. We should not be thinking "they are ****ting themselves", it should be us ****ting ourselves.
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Could TSW save the day and provide some additional information? What happened to all the old S4E threads - doh Would now be the time to drag out one of my stock phrases....? Ok, here goes... "Database crash, my arse"
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 not really, the points could still apply next season. This is where Alpine is right about a slow process... having a urgent agenda item on the next meeting (glad it was so soon) to come up with an independant forensic investigation of the accounts. That surely was a given and didn't need a committee to decide! I'd be worried if I were you....you're starting to repeat my 'logic'!
Wurzel Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 As I've posted on another football site ... As a Saints fan I also feel a "moral duty" to take the 10 point penalty. BUT rules are rules. Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc are in administration. Southampton Football Club Ltd isn't. SFC Ltd doesn't owe anyone anything although they are going to have a very tough time getting through the summer if an investor doesn't step in soon. SLH wasn't JUST the football club. It owned radio stations, retirement homes, insurance services to name but 3 other interests. One by one they were all sold off or closed as they were making a loss. It could turn out that the Leagues forensic accountant could possibly find that the football club was subsidising those other operations over the years. Either way we'll be relegated this year -we simply aren't good enough to stay up.
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 I wonder whether Mr Doncaster has excluded himself from the deliberations as an 'interested party'? I'm supposing as a solicitor he's savvy enough to have done so but if not I guess it would be grounds for appeal against any decision against us. Say we somehow escape the relegation places at Norwich's expense, but then the Football League board including the Norwich Chairman slap us with a ten point penalty? We could be in limbo for months sorting that out! Doesn't every club have a vested interest in the predicament of another in the same or adjacent leagues? I don't see how an inquiry can ever be badged 'independent' when it is made up of people from rival clubs, regardless of league position.
ottery st mary Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 (edited) There hasn't been a single suggestion of anything illegal, or even that the club has misled or lied to the Football League, so I'd watch the libel line if I were you. When we were relegated, the Football League were clearly satisfied with the structure we had in place at the time, otherwise we wouldn't have been issued with the "golden share" that every club gets as a member of the league. They knew the score then so you can be sure they know the score now. They even had the opportunity to close the loophole when Derby went into administration a few years ago but chose not to - perhaps they didn't expect to be in that situation again, who knows, but they missed a trick there. So I'd watch the libel line if I were you.....LIBEL who...OR ARE YOU LOOKING OUT FOR ME.:smt049 As a fellow poster.... My first sentence..........IF THEY HAVE......Second sentence ..BUT IF A COMPLAINT HAS BEEN... For me it is all about the football club and our future....Not about those who have held the purse strings and done what appears quite apparent to me.:mad:.. But The FA want the truth now...hopefully. Please enlighten me of my grey area re libel to another party. Edited 7 April, 2009 by ottery st mary spellin want..
John B Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 So I'd watch the libel line if I were you.....LIBEL who...OR ARE YOU LOOKING OUT FOR ME.:smt049 As a fellow poster.... My first sentence..........IF THEY HAVE......Second sentence ..BUT IF A COMPLAINT HAS BEEN... For me it is all about the football club and our future....Not about those who have held the purse strings and done what appears quite apparent to me.:mad:.. But The FA want the truth now...hopefully. Please enlighten me of my grey area re libel to another party. The league are not looking into our accounts. They are looking into the relationship between SFC and SLH. No one except you has hinted that there is anything illegal in the way the club has been run.
alpine_saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 At first I thought this was bad news. That they didnt dismiss the idea of deducting points, and are probably making sure they have enough evidence to support any legal challenge we make. But now, I think it is good news. They are waiting to see (hoping, more like) if we hang ourselves in the relegation battle before deciding not to deduct points. As many have said, the best we can hope for now is starting League 1 with nil points.
ottery st mary Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 The league are not looking into our accounts. They are looking into the relationship between SFC and SLH. No one except you has hinted that there is anything illegal in the way the club has been run t The subject was libel not what you think my HINT was...Enlighten me john buddy.:smt017
SW11_Saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 FL site statement http://www.football-league.co.uk/...wsDetail/0,,10794~1615729,00.html It had to be this way. If they made a decision and were challenged by us or any other interested club it could have ended in court. By commissioning a forensic accountants report they will at least cover their backs. I wonder if the Administrator will arrange a similar report in case of a challenge or will both sides agree to a joint independent expert. Problem with this is timing. Even if this forensic report is carried out "as a matter of urgency", there is still going to be an impact on potential buyers? We're being told we have to find funds/a buyer before the end of the season, but surely no one is going to step in until the results of this report are published. Time is something we do not have...
alpine_saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Problem with this is timing. Even if this forensic report is carried out "as a matter of urgency", there is still going to be an impact on potential buyers? We're being told we have to find funds/a buyer before the end of the season, but surely no one is going to step in until the results of this report are published. Time is something we do not have... Good point. This could be the worst of all worlds for our mid-term survival.
Wes Tender Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 But then they'd have just asked the club to do so, rather than spending a fortune trying to prove that they are the same... I'm with Jimmy_D on this one, I reckon they're ****ting themselves because they've got nothing on us and so they announce that they're going to get some forensic accountants to look into it but that it might take weeks, which allows time for the season to finish, where they'll be hoping we get relegated anyway, so they can just brush it all under the carpet and pretend it never happened. We could make the next few months very very uncomfortable for the Football League here... I agree with this. I have no formal legal training to give me a basis to make a grounded comment, but I just have a feeling that if this loophole exists, then they can close it after our case, but there is nothing they can do if we slip through that loophole. If Derby slipped through the same loophole under similar circumstances, then we have precedent in our favour too, surely. Some have said that they might act on the basis of us breaking the spirit of the law, but again, I do not see that they have any legal ability to do that either. The law is the law and as far as I'm aware there is no facility for retrospective action or implied nuances which can vary interpretation of it.
SaintRichmond Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Anyone else thinking that we'll survive by the skin of our teeth this season and then get clobbered with the points deduction and go down anyway? Yup ....... the League is hoping we finish in the bottom three, then they won't look so mean when they dock us points in Div 1
ottery st mary Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 The league are not looking into our accounts. They are looking into the relationship between SFC and SLH. No one except you has hinted that there is anything illegal in the way the club has been run. john ...you did not get back to me re above...as for stevegrant no libel written against anyone. What Line etc.... The league will be looking into our accounts re SFC and SLH..Both sets to see the whole picture between the two... Where is the hint about anything illegal in the way the club has been run? There will be a lot of very close scrutiny about SFC and SLH.....Hopefully the shiiiite does not hit the fan and we come out of it with -10 points at the most. Personally I do hope all those who have been running the businesses have done so with best intentions........ Being close to the action are you able to help my idle curiosity regarding Big Kim and his connection to SFC/SLH and Rupert....Very curious.
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