shurlock Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Guess others have seen this as well, but acccording to reporters, the football league is to commission an independent enquiry into our accounts to determine the exact relationship between the holding company and club before deciding whether to dock points. The hope is that this will be done as quickly as possible but could still take a number of weeks. A painful wait and not that the open and shut case that the club was hoping for - as SSN also reports, one of the league's committee members is also closely associated to norwich city.
The Saturday Boy Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4273449.Football_League_delays_Saints_decision/
Jesus Reigned Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Anyone else thinking that we'll survive by the skin of our teeth this season and then get clobbered with the points deduction and go down anyway?
Chez Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 who exactly is on the football league board or are all parties totally independant? The last thing I want to see is a decision being made by the Forrest Chairman or suchlike.
OttawaSaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Anyone else thinking that we'll survive by the skin of our teeth this season and then get clobbered with the points deduction and go down anyway? That sounds about right..
pfc123 Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Hmmm, I think they're hoping you go down of your own accord to buy them time to work out what to do. Trouble is your accounts will presumably show a very thin relationship with the other SLH offshoots, and a great big fat one with SFC. Even the SLH official website according SLH's London Stock Exchange listing is: saintsfc.co.uk, which doesn't look too good if you're trying to say there's little or no connection between the two entities.....
INFLUENCED.COM Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 I will assume there would have been the expectation of an enquiry into the accounts so hope, really hope our arse has been covered in that respect, leaving it down to the players whether or not we remain in this division........oh
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Hmmm, I think they're hoping you go down of your own accord to buy them time to work out what to do. Trouble is your accounts will presumably show a very thin relationship with the other SLH offshoots, and a great big fat one with SFC. Even the SLH official website according SLH's London Stock Exchange listing is: saintsfc.co.uk, which doesn't look too good if you're trying to say there's little or no connection between the two entities..... And it probably doesn't help our case that the OS have removed the links to the corporate information sections.....
rallyboy Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 I can't see that a delay is a bad thing. If we keep on losing it will be easier for them to let us off any misdemeanours thus avoiding any possible legal action from our switched on legal aid team. And it also gives us time to get a buyer in place as Derby did. Then it might just look like our masterplan of shifting the club ownership between businesses was in place all along and the failed holding company was nothing to do with anything..... Also it saves us dropping 13 points in one day.
Wade Garrett Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Anyone else thinking that we'll survive by the skin of our teeth this season and then get clobbered with the points deduction and go down anyway? Not me. I'd take the 10 points now, start next season on a level footing.
ottery st mary Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Like the Goverment coffers the league want to know where all the dosh has gone and by what route....Full and thorough accounts search coming up. Points off next season big time....Damn and blast....Then again we might find some money we thought we had lost. I would personally like good old KIM accounted for soon.
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 When did Gordon "Bottler" Brown takeover the running of the Football League? Must have missed that announcement.
Saintleigh Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Anyone else thinking that we'll survive by the skin of our teeth this season and then get clobbered with the points deduction and go down anyway? Spot on. FL hope we get relegated (soon) then make a decision to hit us with 10 point deduction this season anyway due to the accounts showing that the only real income stream to the PLC was the football activities (?) of SFC. That way all other clubs are, at least partially, satisfied with the decision and we start next season on 0 points. In their eyes everyone's a winner: - No legal action from other clubs - We were down anyway so -10 this year is better than -10 next. Personally I wish they had made a decision today one way or the other rather than the usual prevaricating - at least we would know where we stand instead of the continual guessing and ifs & buts.
SaintRobbie Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Sensible approach by the FL, in my opinion. Agreed. Is it true that our case is similar to Derby's though? ie Derby were not deducted points. If so, I hope we get the same result.
Danny Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4273449.Football_League_delays_Saints_decision/ That link's not working. Try this one: http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4273401.Football_League_delays_Saints_decision/
Jimmy_D Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Suggests to me that they don't have a bloody thing on us at the moment, so now they're looking for a technicality to let them hit us with the penalty. If that fails they'll probably remove the clause that stops parent companies from invoking the 10 point penalty...
shurlock Posted 7 April, 2009 Author Posted 7 April, 2009 who exactly is on the football league board or are all parties totally independant? The last thing I want to see is a decision being made by the Forrest Chairman or suchlike. who's who is here http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/AboutUs/WhosWho/0,,10794,00.html group of eight- one of the members, neil doncaster's bio is here: Neil Doncaster joined Norwich City in 1997 as Company Secretary and Solicitor before being promoted to his current position as Chief Executive in 2001. He sits on the Club's main Board, where he leads the drive to position the Club at the very heart of the community as a consultative, accessible family club. He is a director of the Football Association, the Football League and FL Interactive and is a member of the Football Association's Professional Game Board, Football Regulatory Authority and Judicial Panel. Neil is a qualified solicitor.
Chez Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Not me. I'd take the 10 points now, start next season on a level footing. too late for that. Unless we finish outside the bottom three the ten points will come off next season as we missed the deadline.
ludgershallsaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 I think they're worried that they can't deduct points from us given their current rules. They'll be praying we go down anyway, they can deduct the ten points this season (nobody will give a monkeys) and they will have escaped without looking the fools that they are.
Doctoroncall Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 A Norwich director (Mr Doncaster) is one of the panel to decide. He's also a solicitor.
ludgershallsaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Suggests to me that they don't have a bloody thing on us at the moment, so now they're looking for a technicality to let them hit us with the penalty. If that fails they'll probably remove the clause that stops parent companies from invoking the 10 point penalty... The situation summed up perfectly IMHO
Chez Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 who's who is here http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/AboutUs/WhosWho/0,,10794,00.html group of eight- one of the members, neil doncaster's bio is here: Neil Doncaster joined Norwich City in 1997 as Company Secretary and Solicitor before being promoted to his current position as Chief Executive in 2001. He sits on the Club's main Board, where he leads the drive to position the Club at the very heart of the community as a consultative, accessible family club. He is a director of the Football Association, the Football League and FL Interactive and is a member of the Football Association's Professional Game Board, Football Regulatory Authority and Judicial Panel. Neil is a qualified solicitor. thanks. Mr Doncaster is a turkey voting for Xmas if he backs us. The Sheffield United Chairman is going to want proper justice after they were turned over on the Tevez affair, so I can see him voting against us as well. Sheepshanks is a mate of Lowe's ain't he? In the end there is precident (with Derby) so if our accounts show that there were two distinct entities then we should be alright. If not we are going to have serious problems.
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Sensible approach by the FL, in my opinion. Sensible but slow, IMO. Typical quango approach...take nearly a week to convene a meeting (conference call anyone?).....then kick off an "urgent" inquiry... Your sub-par rocket scientist could have worked out that the financial circumstances would need 'further investigation' last week and they could have the "urgent" report in their hands by now.
stevegrant Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Surprise, surprise, they've bottled making a decision. They're clearly hoping we go down anyway so they can just brush it all under the carpet. It'll be very very interesting to see what happens if we manage to stay up...
saint_stevo Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Echo- http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4273401.Saints_made_to_sweat_by_the_Football_League/ [admin: please don't copy Echo articles word-for-word, I get lots of hassle from them ] Sky The Football League has launched a full inquiry into Southampton's finances to decide whether to punish the Championship club over the collapse of their holding company. The league deducts 10 points when clubs go into administration due to financial problems. Relegation-threatened Southampton had hoped to avoid such a penalty because its parent company and not the club went into administration last week. But the league is now looking into the relationship between the club and Southampton Leisure Holdings. Football League chairman Lord Mawhinney confirmed to Sky Sports News that he hopes for a conclusion "as soon as possible".
ottery st mary Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 When did Gordon "Bottler" Brown takeover the running of the Football League? Must have missed that announcement. The league are going to ask Gordon to give some dosh back and give it to Saints....A very worthwhile cause.
Saint Keith Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 who's who is here http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/AboutUs/WhosWho/0,,10794,00.html group of eight- one of the members, neil doncaster's bio is here: Neil Doncaster joined Norwich City in 1997 as Company Secretary and Solicitor before being promoted to his current position as Chief Executive in 2001. He sits on the Club's main Board, where he leads the drive to position the Club at the very heart of the community as a consultative, accessible family club. He is a director of the Football Association, the Football League and FL Interactive and is a member of the Football Association's Professional Game Board, Football Regulatory Authority and Judicial Panel. Neil is a qualified solicitor. Neil Doncaster is an old collegue of mine, we did our MBA together. should i offer to buy him lunch, then cuts the legs of his chair?
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Surprise, surprise, they've bottled making a decision. They're clearly hoping we go down anyway so they can just brush it all under the carpet. It'll be very very interesting to see what happens if we manage to stay up... One thing's for sure....it'll make a farcical last day of the season if they still haven't decided by then and we get a result against Forest that keeps us up. What on Earth do we do at full time in those circumstances? We couldn't celebrate with any degree of confidence, that's for sure.
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Neil Doncaster is an old collegue of mine, we did our MBA together. should i offer to buy him lunch, then cuts the legs of his chair? Yes
Weston Saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 FL site statement http://www.football-league.co.uk/...wsDetail/0,,10794~1615729,00.html It had to be this way. If they made a decision and were challenged by us or any other interested club it could have ended in court. By commissioning a forensic accountants report they will at least cover their backs. I wonder if the Administrator will arrange a similar report in case of a challenge or will both sides agree to a joint independent expert.
Weston Saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Mr Doncaster will not be involved in the decision process if Norwich are an interested party. He will remove himself from the decision making.
St Marco Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Should take about 10mins after looking at the books to see the club and company are pretty much the same thing and financially are intertwined.
Mr X Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 It is a nigh on certainty we will be docked ten points, they have to if they don't want to send the whole league into disrepute
Dr Who? Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 I think there should be an investigation into our accounts anyway, I think there is some dodgy goings on at the club as it has been bled dry of finances!
OttawaSaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 We will be deducted points, they are just figuring out a loophole so that they can do it. Had it been a "big club" they would find a way not to. A bit like all the ****e we had to go through to get pahars and then they grant work permits for loan players to Chelsea and Arsenal and Liverpool even though at the time it was against the rules. They make their own rules to suit their agenda...
benjii Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 We could play hard-ball and simply refuse to give their accountants access. "Your rule says, 'x', make a decision".
PaulSaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 (edited) Hmmm, I think they're hoping you go down of your own accord to buy them time to work out what to do. Trouble is your accounts will presumably show a very thin relationship with the other SLH offshoots, and a great big fat one with SFC. Even the SLH official website according SLH's London Stock Exchange listing is: saintsfc.co.uk, which doesn't look too good if you're trying to say there's little or no connection between the two entities..... I understand that your chairman is hoping that you also go down before the investigation begins into your links with gunrunning! Edited 7 April, 2009 by PaulSaint
stevegrant Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 I think there should be an investigation into our accounts anyway, I think there is some dodgy goings on at the club as it has been bled dry of finances! Christ :smt017 We could play hard-ball and simply refuse to give their accountants access. "Your rule says, 'x', make a decision". I'm not sure they'll necessarily need "full" access - they'll be able to get copies of the various accounts from Companies House for £1 each, which may be sufficient. Quite why the FL couldn't do that in the first place is a bit baffling really.
benjii Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Christ :smt017 I'm not sure they'll necessarily need "full" access - they'll be able to get copies of the various accounts from Companies House for £1 each, which may be sufficient. Quite why the FL couldn't do that in the first place is a bit baffling really. Well, yes! They could just download the annual report pdf off the SFC site! As for the relationship between SFC and the debt, that can easily be ascertained by a look at SFC Limited's charges register on Companies House. You don't need "Forensic Accountants" to do that. If the League wants to **** money up the wall though, let's let them! I doubt any forensic accountants are doing anything as a matter of urgency. As others have said, this is just a delaying tactic. We have three matches between now and this time next week. They will be hoping we are virtually down by then.
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Mr Doncaster will not be involved in the decision process if Norwich are an interested party. He will remove himself from the decision making. Arguably, anyone with a connection to a Football League club could be classed an 'interested party', couldn't they? A big 'IF'....but if we stumble across an investor with a decent amount of money in the next couple of weeks, name a club in the CCC who wouldn't rather see us get relegated or a club in League 1 who wouldn't want to see us stay up. Bit of a grey area IMO.
ottery st mary Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Christ :smt017 I'm not sure they'll necessarily need "full" access - they'll be able to get copies of the various accounts from Companies House for £1 each, which may be sufficient. Quite why the FL couldn't do that in the first place is a bit baffling really. If they have been misled or even lied to..surely they will look very closely at much more than Companies House records....Never the answer when trying to get to the truth. They at the League want satisfactory closure alround...But if a complaint has been made surely they will cover their backs before The Police are called in. Maybe we will just end up -10 points and a promotion from league 1 next year. Then again something does not ring quite right in my opinion.
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Quite why the FL couldn't do that in the first place is a bit baffling really. Indeed.
benjii Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 If they have been misled or even lied to..surely they will look very closely at much more than Companies House records....Never the answer when trying to get to the truth. They at the League want satisfactory closure alround...But if a complaint has been made surely they will cover their backs before The Police are called in. Maybe we will just end up -10 points and a promotion from league 1 next year. Then again something does not ring quite right in my opinion. ?
ottery st mary Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 ? Could be our new centre forward next season:D
DT Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Neil Doncaster is an old collegue of mine, we did our MBA together. should i offer to buy him lunch, then cuts the legs of his chair? Yes. If he complains, say that we bought the saw in a shop that was simply the parent company of the restaurant. No other connection. Honest. Chaps, we're in League One, let's just face it. I think the League is also kind of hoping they won't have to make a decision because there won't be a club. It certainly must hamper the sale proceedings, no?
saintsdan Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 Suggests to me that they don't have a bloody thing on us at the moment, so now they're looking for a technicality to let them hit us with the penalty. If that fails they'll probably remove the clause that stops parent companies from invoking the 10 point penalty... Personally I think it suggests the opposite. They are fairly sure that the club and the PLC are one and the same in all but name (which in my opinion they effectively are!) and are looking to see if the club can provide any evidence to the contrary.
stevegrant Posted 7 April, 2009 Posted 7 April, 2009 If they have been misled or even lied to..surely they will look very closely at much more than Companies House records....Never the answer when trying to get to the truth. They at the League want satisfactory closure alround...But if a complaint has been made surely they will cover their backs before The Police are called in. There hasn't been a single suggestion of anything illegal, or even that the club has misled or lied to the Football League, so I'd watch the libel line if I were you. When we were relegated, the Football League were clearly satisfied with the structure we had in place at the time, otherwise we wouldn't have been issued with the "golden share" that every club gets as a member of the league. They knew the score then so you can be sure they know the score now. They even had the opportunity to close the loophole when Derby went into administration a few years ago but chose not to - perhaps they didn't expect to be in that situation again, who knows, but they missed a trick there.
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