Amesbury Saint Posted 5 April, 2009 Posted 5 April, 2009 Off pitch Will there be any good news coming from SMS / the administrator? On pitch 1 point
docker-p Posted 5 April, 2009 Posted 5 April, 2009 I don't know how many times this season a game has been discribed as a must win, but Tuesdays game at Watford is a must win. And after saturdays apology for a performance I'm hoping for a bounce back away win. Off the pitch, I don't think a deal can be done within a week, but I'm sure we'll know who the main players are.
Colinjb Posted 5 April, 2009 Posted 5 April, 2009 The games themself no longer matter, the matters off field are the most important thing. It's all about preparing for the future.
SaintBobby Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 docker-p said: I don't know how many times this season a game has been discribed as a must win, but Tuesdays game at Watford is a must win. And after saturdays apology for a performance I'm hoping for a bounce back away win. Off the pitch, I don't think a deal can be done within a week, but I'm sure we'll know who the main players are. This ("must win") is very unlikely. The harsh truth is that we are very likely to be relegated whether we win, lose or draw at Watford. If the league has docked us ten points before kick-off, the game becomes even more academic.
ponto1963 Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 The thing I don't understand. Owner of Club goes bust. (ie Man City, from memory) Sells club to help fund bankruptcy, no points deduction. PLC owner of club goes into admin. ( Saints ) Sells Club, possible points deduction. Why??
alpine_saint Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Colinjb said: The games themself no longer matter, the matters off field are the most important thing. It's all about preparing for the future. I would agree with this. This season is a write-off. The best we can hope for is being on 0 points in League 1 at the start of it.
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 ponto1963 said: The thing I don't understand. Owner of Club goes bust. (ie Man City, from memory) Sells club to help fund bankruptcy, no points deduction. PLC owner of club goes into admin. ( Saints ) Sells Club, possible points deduction. Why?? I see no legal avenue for any points deduction at this time - we appear to be within the letter of the law regarding the administration regulations (as I understand them) and any attempt to retrospectively alter the regulations to specifically punish SFC would surely result in the matter ending up in court - which neither party would particularly desire . Unfortunately the point may well become moot as far as this season is concerned as the team seems quite capable of relegating us without any assistance from the FA .
Greedyfly Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Chaff all both off and on. We never get anything at Watford except utterly humiliated...And that was when we were in the Prem.
John B Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Greedyfly said: Chaff all both off and on. We never get anything at Watford except utterly humiliated...And that was when we were in the Prem. Yes you are right once went there to watch a League Cup match years ago and we were lucky to lose 7 1 I think was the score the worse defeat I have ever seen. Never been back
ericofarabia Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 One thing for sure is that I will be praying that somebody from the club doesn't appear in The Echo or OS saying "the boys are really up for it, the mood and atmosphere in training is really positive and we are confident we will be able to pay back the fans on Tuesday" It's as if statements like these are normally followed by a resounding costly defeat. Playing against and beating (narrowly )Motorway traffic cones in training is one thing but once out on the pitch everything seems to go out of the window. Anything less than a 3-0 defeat at Watford would be an improvement on our normal visits there I guess but a handsome win ahead of the televised visit to Wolves would make sure the boys are really up for it with a great mood and atmosphere in training and confident of rewarding the travelling supporters ......
70's Mike Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 ericofarabia said: One thing for sure is that I will be praying that somebody from the club doesn't appear in The Echo or OS saying "the boys are really up for it, the mood and atmosphere in training is really positive and we are confident we will be able to pay back the fans on Tuesday" It's as if statements like these are normally followed by a resounding costly defeat. Playing against and beating (narrowly )Motorway traffic cones in training is one thing but once out on the pitch everything seems to go out of the window. Anything less than a 3-0 defeat at Watford would be an improvement on our normal visits there I guess but a handsome win ahead of the televised visit to Wolves would make sure the boys are really up for it with a great mood and atmosphere in training and confident of rewarding the travelling supporters ...... totally agree
Greedyfly Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 John B said: Yes you are right once went there to watch a League Cup match years ago and we were lucky to lose 7 1 I think was the score the worse defeat I have ever seen. Never been back Yep I was there too. Lived with a Watford fan at the time and he took pity on me and said he wouldn't gloat...and didn't. That was even more humiliating. It was 7 - 2 and only ******* scored the second when LEANDRE ****ING GRIFFIT came on. Was Wigleys finest hour and oddly enough wasn't the nail in the coffin for him though it ****ing should have been. We also got battered on that Boxing Day, with Burley in charge and have been beaten so many times since....and often on TV.
NickG Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 John B said: Yes you are right once went there to watch a League Cup match years ago and we were lucky to lose 7 1 I think was the score the worse defeat I have ever seen. Never been back was that the one we were so far ahead from the first leg I didn't go as we were already through!
Pilchards Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 ericofarabia said: One thing for sure is that I will be praying that somebody from the club doesn't appear in The Echo or OS saying "the boys are really up for it, the mood and atmosphere in training is really positive and we are confident we will be able to pay back the fans on Tuesday" It's as if statements like these are normally followed by a resounding costly defeat. I would luv it if someone said 'We are playing **** and we are dreading the trip to that ****hole' Might get a result that way? :-)
Give it to Ron Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 After Saturday the pessimist in me is doing OT. 17 point deduction for trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the FL. Watford 3-0 win. 18 out of the 19 are proved tyrekickers or all Fulthorpes mates with no money. Wotte eats himself....oh well something at the end to cheer us up then.
slickmick Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 1. 3 points against Watford. 2. -10 points for this season from the Football league. 3. A bidder to buy the club to show their hand. 4. 3 points against Wolves. 5. 20,000 to watch Palace game on Monday. 6. Wotte to revert back to a 4 4 2 formation.
slickmick Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 adriansfc said: You just know that no points deduction will mean a loss at Watford. 10 points deducted will mean a win. For any chance of staying up we need 4 wins. Just as we did before Saturday. It just becomes far more difficult now. I thought if we beat charlton we'd have a good chance. Now I think we have a tiny, tiny chance and one that could be completely extinguished before the next home game. We know them so well.
rallyboy Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 This is a new era and there is a bigger picture (not the train one) Forget getting a point here or a point there, the number one priority is to save the club. Once that is done we can worry about getting out of whatever division our current team and accountancy practices leave us in.
del boy Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 The points deduction seems unlikely, but who knows. It might give us the excuse we need ..."well if it wasnt for the body blow of the points deduction we probably would have stayed up.."
Leslie Charteris Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Provided SFC can still operate, I don't see how the League can dock us points legally, If there's no investment by the end of the season, we'll be in deep trouble and the points won't make much difference. What I would like to see is the players playing like their lives depended on a result for the remainder of the games and, who knows, we might just avoid relegation.
alpine_saint Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Leslie Charteris said: What I would like to see is the players playing like their lives depended on a result for the remainder of the games and, who knows, we might just avoid relegation. What chances of that after Saturday's performance, do you think ?
spyinthesky Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Greedyfly said: Yep I was there too. Lived with a Watford fan at the time and he took pity on me and said he wouldn't gloat...and didn't. That was even more humiliating. It was 7 - 2 and only ******* scored the second when LEANDRE ****ING GRIFFIT came on. Was Wigleys finest hour and oddly enough wasn't the nail in the coffin for him though it ****ing should have been. We also got battered on that Boxing Day, with Burley in charge and have been beaten so many times since....and often on TV. It was 7-1 in the mid 1980's. League Cup We were 4-0 up from the first leg (incl a brilliant long range effort from Charlie george) and it was 5-1 at full time in the return leg.. Watford scored twice in extra time. Ivan Katalinic was in goal. Mc Menemy was the manager. Saints were top division, Watford Div 2 (as was) We have sufferd a number of humiliating defeats at Vicarage Rd since then. One of these was a 5-2 defeat in which Griffit may have played.
Leslie Charteris Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 alpine_saint said: What chances of that after Saturday's performance, do you think ? The PA system is in place and ready, but the fat lady isn't singing... yet! Gotta be optimistic.
alpine_saint Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 spyinthesky said: It was 7-1 in the mid 1980's. League Cup We were 4-0 up from the first leg (incl a brilliant long range effort from Charlie george) and it was 5-1 at full time in the return leg.. Watford scored twice in extra time. Ivan Katalinic was in goal. Mc Menemy was the manager. Saints were top division, Watford Div 2 (as was) We have sufferd a number of humiliating defeats at Vicarage Rd since then. One of these was a 5-2 defeat in which Griffit may have played. And the worst is yet to come. Someone please tell me Rasiak cant play...
NickG Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 missing a points deduction may seem unfair to those who have received it, but if the rule is as black and white as appears it seems that we should escape. Didn't West Ham's and Man City's owners both go bust? I honestly can say that, although if it meant us escaping I would be pleased to stay up at another clubs expense, I would not be crying out for another club to be deducted points due to issues with owners etc. Not like the spiteful Bournemouth fans ringing into Solent hoping we get a 25 point deduction this week!
OldNick Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 NickG said: missing a points deduction may seem unfair to those who have received it, but if the rule is as black and white as appears it seems that we should escape. Didn't West Ham's and Man City's owners both go bust? I honestly can say that, although if it meant us escaping I would be pleased to stay up at another clubs expense, I would not be crying out for another club to be deducted points due to issues with owners etc. Not like the spiteful Bournemouth fans ringing into Solent hoping we get a 25 point deduction this week! I didnt hear it but wouldnt be surprised.Im not sure theor position is safe yet, I dont think their alleged takeover has gone through again has it?
OldNick Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 I have no doubt we will play a very attacking team on tuesday and have a gung ho attitude as if we avoid the points deduction we have to win.
INFLUENCED.COM Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 This week.....A win at Watford, confirmation we escaped the points deduction, disclosure on who the 'serious' parties are interested in buying the club with the adminstrator having had confirmation of proof of funds...A happy Easter to you all !!
Greedyfly Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 spyinthesky said: It was 7-1 in the mid 1980's. League Cup We were 4-0 up from the first leg (incl a brilliant long range effort from Charlie george) and it was 5-1 at full time in the return leg.. Watford scored twice in extra time. Ivan Katalinic was in goal. Mc Menemy was the manager. Saints were top division, Watford Div 2 (as was) We have sufferd a number of humiliating defeats at Vicarage Rd since then. One of these was a 5-2 defeat in which Griffit may have played. You are correct sir, that was the one I was on about. Griffit came on with 10ish to go and crossed to Ormerod I think to make it 5 - 2. Game was long dead by then.
trousers Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 NickG said: missing a points deduction may seem unfair to those who have received it, but if the rule is as black and white as appears it seems that we should escape In typical FA/Football League fashion, aren't the 'black and white' rules undermined somewhat by the "we reserve the right to make things up as we go along" clause that they slipped into the 'rules' after Derby exploited a similar loophole?
um pahars Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 trousers said: In typical FA/Football League fashion, aren't the 'black and white' rules undermined somewhat by the "we reserve the right to make things up as we go along" clause that they slipped into the 'rules' after Derby exploited a similar loophole? My worry as well. Technically we are OK, but if there is the ability to invoke this type of clause then I think we may be up against it.
ottery st mary Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 What I expect to happen this week..A picture of Concorde to be placed on the Boardroom wall..This will signify our take offfff.....oops just realised Concorde is grounded.. New Buyers please with a light aircraft...Del Boy type Robin Reliant...Beggars can't be .....
borth2 Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 The rules of the Football league were designed so that if a holding company went bust,unrelated to the football operations it would be manifestly unfair to dock them points (as in West Ham case). In our case this doesn't apply. Expect the deduction we deserve it.
trousers Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 I notice that the the 'investor' pages on the OS have been blocked rather than updated....
Gorgiesaint Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 um pahars said: My worry as well. Technically we are OK, but if there is the ability to invoke this type of clause then I think we may be up against it. David Gold of Birmingham was interviewed on Talksport this morning & Alan Brazil asked for his take on it. Golds impression was that we would get away with it - who wouldn't being trying to find every loophole available if they were in that situation. He did add that it takes something like this to happen for the FL to close down so that it doesn't happen again.
rpb Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 spyinthesky said: It was 7-1 in the mid 1980's. League Cup We were 4-0 up from the first leg (incl a brilliant long range effort from Charlie george) and it was 5-1 at full time in the return leg.. Watford scored twice in extra time. Ivan Katalinic was in goal. Mc Menemy was the manager. Nearly - it was August 1980 and the long range effort was from Nick Holmes - just inside the half way line (George scored from close range and with a deflection)
Victor Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 trousers said: In typical FA/Football League fashion, aren't the 'black and white' rules undermined somewhat by the "we reserve the right to make things up as we go along" clause that they slipped into the 'rules' after Derby exploited a similar loophole? You may jest, but I actually believe this is the case. Quote from the Telegraph: "However, while the apparent loophole is likely to spark a wider debate regarding the status of holding and parent companies, a Football League spokesman said: 'The league rules are very specific, it has to be the club which goes into administration for points to be deducted'." Quote from the Times: "The League will want to consider whether the effect of the holding company going into administration is tantamount to the football club doing the same thing. If it believes that it is, then it could try to impose a sporting sanction". And I did read somewhere else that the League had actually added a rider to their rules that gave then power to act if they felt a club had indulged in deliberate hanky-panky to avoid a points deduction. A points deduction seems certain. Examples from the Premiership are irelevant - a different league.
aintforever Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Victor said: You may jest, but I actually believe this is the case. Quote from the Telegraph: "However, while the apparent loophole is likely to spark a wider debate regarding the status of holding and parent companies, a Football League spokesman said: 'The league rules are very specific, it has to be the club which goes into administration for points to be deducted'." Quote from the Times: "The League will want to consider whether the effect of the holding company going into administration is tantamount to the football club doing the same thing. If it believes that it is, then it could try to impose a sporting sanction". And I did read somewhere else that the League had actually added a rider to their rules that gave then power to act if they felt a club had indulged in deliberate hanky-panky to avoid a points deduction. A points deduction seems certain. Examples from the Premiership are irelevant - a different league. I don't think Saints can be accused of any deliberate hanky panky like Leeds were, SLH has been around for ages, it is not like it was set up to avoid a points deduction.
rallyboy Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 There seems to be confidence at SMS that the rules clearly state that the club is a different entity. There is no grey area, if that is the case then the league could be on the wrong end of a legal claim by Saints if they try and impose it, might be our best chance of getting some money in.... That aside, we all know that this rule was put into place for this precise scenario and I would be very surprised if we don't cop the penalty. So we could be heading for the greatest double escape of all time, or another step forward in our attempt at joining the 92 club in the shortest possible time.
Victor Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 rallyboy said: There seems to be confidence at SMS that the rules clearly state that the club is a different entity. There is no grey area, if that is the case then the league could be on the wrong end of a legal claim by Saints if they try and impose it, might be our best chance of getting some money in.... That aside, we all know that this rule was put into place for this precise scenario and I would be very surprised if we don't cop the penalty. So we could be heading for the greatest double escape of all time, or another step forward in our attempt at joining the 92 club in the shortest possible time. 'double escape'? Your post seems to include a double contradiction which has left me totally confused. And 'attempt at joining the 92 club'? We are a member aren't we? Do you mean getting kicked out of the league to the lowest of the FA pyramid leagues and starting all over again? If so, I suspect AFC Wimbledon will shortly create a record that will be extremely hard to beat. But maybe I have totally misunderstood what you are saying.
Griffo Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Victor said: 'double escape'? Your post seems to include a double contradiction which has left me totally confused. And 'attempt at joining the 92 club'? We are a member aren't we? Do you mean getting kicked out of the league to the lowest of the FA pyramid leagues and starting all over again? If so, I suspect AFC Wimbledon will shortly create a record that will be extremely hard to beat. But maybe I have totally misunderstood what you are saying. I presume he means double escape as in surviving relegation in the league and avoiding any points deduction through the loophole in the Football League rules?
trousers Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 aintforever said: I don't think Saints can be accused of any deliberate hanky panky like Leeds were, SLH has been around for ages, it is not like it was set up to avoid a points deduction. Are you suggesting that Mr Lowe wasn't forward planning....?
Lord Duckhunter Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 I think the league will try and deduct the points and then leave it for us to take legal action to get them back. That way they will have all the other Clubs onboard and will seen to have been acting consistantly. Personally I cant see them coming out and admitting they'd left a loophole open. The issue then becomes who'll take legal action on our before. It will require plenty of money and fight to get this points back. ken Bates went all the way with Leeds -15 (unsucsessfully as it happened) because he knew he was going to be the new owner and it'll effect him. Who is going to fight our cause? The Administrator? Not likely, Lowe and Wilde? Not a chance. Leon Crouch? Maybe. Legally the FL could be on dodgey ground deducting the points, but who'll defend our interests? New owners will proberly want to but, If we go down as a result of the -10, the Sheff Utd senerio has shown, that it'll be too late to reinstate us. The best we can hope for is starting next season in League 1 with nil points.
Griffo Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Lord Duckhunter said: I think the league will try and deduct the points and then leave it for us to take legal action to get them back. That way they will have all the other Clubs onboard and will seen to have been acting consistantly. Personally I cant see them coming out and admitting they'd left a loophole open. The issue then becomes who'll take legal action on our before. It will require plenty of money and fight to get this points back. ken Bates went all the way with Leeds -15 (unsucsessfully as it happened) because he knew he was going to be the new owner and it'll effect him. Who is going to fight our cause? The Administrator? Not likely, Lowe and Wilde? Not a chance. Leon Crouch? Maybe. Legally the FL could be on dodgey ground deducting the points, but who'll defend our interests? New owners will proberly want to but, If we go down as a result of the -10, the Sheff Utd senerio has shown, that it'll be too late to reinstate us. The best we can hope for is starting next season in League 1 with nil points. Exactly, but they can only deduct the points next season because we've gone past the date where points are deducted this season. However if we stay up this season, the points are taken off this season, which is highly unlikely for us to stay up anyway I think. I'm pretty sure no matter what we will be in League One next season. But I couldn't give a rats arse. That's irrelevant compared to the thoughts going through my head of there being no club even in existence to support next season.
alpine_saint Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Lord Duckhunter said: The best we can hope for is starting next season in League 1 with nil points. Yep.
Flyer Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 CHAPEL END CHARLIE said: I see no legal avenue for any points deduction at this time - we appear to be within the letter of the law regarding the administration regulations (as I understand them) and any attempt to retrospectively alter the regulations to specifically punish SFC would surely result in the matter ending up in court - which neither party would particularly desire . Unfortunately the point may well become moot as far as this season is concerned as the team seems quite capable of relegating us without any assistance from the FA . The FL can withhold Saints registration to the league unless they sign a document accepting the -10 points and saying they wont take it further. Its exactly what they did to Leeds when Bates tried to bend the rules with a loophole.
martel Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 ahill said: A 3-0 loss at Watford for sure .................... Plus a ten point dedcution, might as well close the doors after that!
mack rill Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 Amesbury Saint said: Off pitch Will there be any good news coming from SMS / the administrator? On pitch 1 point Hit an iceberg
trousers Posted 6 April, 2009 Posted 6 April, 2009 mack rill said: Hit an iceberg Lettuce into a secret?
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