Danny Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Radio 5 implied that points would probably be deducted NEXT SEASON. It seems that it will be very difficult for us to avoid league one or possibly league two. Well if the Football League say they won't deduct points, then points will not be deducted. Simple as that. It makes no difference what Radio 5 or anyone else infers - the precedent was set with Derby in 2004.
Charlie Wayman Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Well if that is true it just goes to show what a Mickey Mouse outfit the Football league must be. It's the biggest load of B*ll*cks and hubris I have every heard. I would think that could be challenged easily in the courts by clubs such as Leeds & Luton and what a can of worms that could turn out to be, wit a 'final' decision stretched out over several years and us not knowing whether we are up or down or... Did you notice the common link between ourselves and Derby County going into Administration? George Burley!
hypochondriac Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Apparently it has happened before with Derby when George was there. There are quotes as well. What an interesting loophole!
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I wouldn't be surprised if the Echo rang the wrong number to be honest. The club fed the Echo last night with this story and I smell a rat!
Mole Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I wouldn't be surprised if the Echo rang the wrong number to be honest. The club fed the Echo last night with this story and I smell a rat! Go on.
St Marco Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Story has been updated - this is not the first time it has happened apparently. Very interesting. Derby have done it before. From what they are saying it goes like this Derby County PLC owed £30m, couldn't pay went into receivership. Derby County Football Club (different from PLC) had no points deducted because Derby County LTD (another company?) was bought out the momment it went into receivership by a consortium then they killed the company minutes later. Soooo I think that means for this to work to the same pattern the SLH must be sold? Is there a deadline to when that must happen? Someone here mentioned 11am?
hypochondriac Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I wouldn't be surprised if the Echo rang the wrong number to be honest. The club fed the Echo last night with this story and I smell a rat! But if it has been done before with Derby why can it noit be done again?
Danny Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I wouldn't be surprised if the Echo rang the wrong number to be honest. The club fed the Echo last night with this story and I smell a rat! Why's that then? I'm intrigued.
Channon's Sideburns Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I wonder if it will be announced after the PLC meeting that the FC has been sold to a certain individual linked to Messrs Lowe and Wilde then...?
hypochondriac Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I wonder if it will be announced after the PLC meeting that the FC has been sold to a certain individual linked to Messrs Lowe and Wilde then...? Would they be able to do that without any agreement from the shareholders of SLH? I think Leon would have something to say!
aintforever Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 The timing of it all points to a deduction being avoided. Surely if we were gonna get deducted this would have happened last week before the deadline?
Channon's Sideburns Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Would they be able to do that without any agreement from the shareholders of SLH? I think Leon would have something to say! I bet the foookers are going to try. This is their end game.
alpine_saint Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Expect the Football League to close this hole very quickly..... So, SFC lives without the points deduction, but SMS is gone because it is owned by SLH. Thank fook the plc years are finally over...
SaintRichmond Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I wonder if it will be announced after the PLC meeting that the FC has been sold to a certain individual linked to Messrs Lowe and Wilde then...? .... " Jackson's Farm Holdings Inc "
Window Cleaner Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Expect the Football League to close this hole very quickly..... So, SFC lives without the points deduction, but SMS is gone because it is owned by SLH. Thank fook the plc years are finally over... SMS is owned by St Mary's Stadium Ltd or something of that ilk.
hypochondriac Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Expect the Football League to close this hole very quickly..... So, SFC lives without the points deduction, but SMS is gone because it is owned by SLH. Thank fook the plc years are finally over... Well yes but as the council would never agree to the ground being sold they would have no choice but to rent it or sell it back to the club in some form.
SaintBobby Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Expect the Football League to close this hole very quickly..... So, SFC lives without the points deduction, but SMS is gone because it is owned by SLH. Thank fook the plc years are finally over... I don't like the plc structure, but would be an irony if it does save us from a 10 point penalty. The stadium thing bewilders me. I just can't get my head around the economics of it. If I default on my mortgage, the C&G take possession and there are literally thousands of potential buyers for my flat. It's probably a bit of a pain for C&G, but the safety/security they have is that they can get a decent, market-rate-ish price for the property. I can't see how this is the case for Norwich Union and SMS. If they take possession, who the heck are they going to sell it to. The place is basically worthless other than to a sports team based in Southampton with thousands and thousands of supporters. So can't a "reborn" Southampton FC rebuy SMS for some nominal fee? Say £1m? And Norwich Union end up just having to write off the debt? I can imagine a Mexican stand-off developing, but ultimately the stadium is pretty damned worthless to NU in a way that my flat isn't to Cheltenham & Gloucester.
Danny Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Expect the Football League to close this hole very quickly... Well, they haven't closed it since 2004 when Derby took advantage. Why would they suddenly do it now?
Red And White Barmy Army Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 i think a few property developers might bid higher than £1million tbh. that's about the cost of selling 15 houses minus building costs isn't it?... and how many could they fit on SMS??? Please can some1 re-assure me that isn't going to happen also on ssn - we won't lose 10 points if a buyer is found before the end of the summer - but then again the guy did also say that SMS was built in 2005 when we got relegated :s
Gemmel Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I don't like the plc structure, but would be an irony if it does save us from a 10 point penalty. The stadium thing bewilders me. I just can't get my head around the economics of it. If I default on my mortgage, the C&G take possession and there are literally thousands of potential buyers for my flat. It's probably a bit of a pain for C&G, but the safety/security they have is that they can get a decent, market-rate-ish price for the property. I can't see how this is the case for Norwich Union and SMS. If they take possession, who the heck are they going to sell it to. The place is basically worthless other than to a sports team based in Southampton with thousands and thousands of supporters. So can't a "reborn" Southampton FC rebuy SMS for some nominal fee? Say £1m? And Norwich Union end up just having to write off the debt? I can imagine a Mexican stand-off developing, but ultimately the stadium is pretty damned worthless to NU in a way that my flat isn't to Cheltenham & Gloucester. Its the economics of the stadium that ive always seen as the big stumbling block to administration, but i am assuming that St Marys stadium Ltd will be passed to the new owners, on the basis that Aviva transfer the loan note and are comfortable that the new owners can fulfil their financial obligations. One thing is for sure though, Aviva are owed 23 million, they will not walk away with 1p 10p 20p or even 30 p in the pound, they would either hold on to it or do something else with it, it it came to that, but new owners taking on the debt, would suit them perfectly.
bridge too far Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 i think a few property developers might bid higher than £1million tbh. that's about the cost of selling 15 houses minus building costs isn't it?... and how many could they fit on SMS??? Please can some1 re-assure me that isn't going to happen also on ssn - we won't lose 10 points if a buyer is found before the end of the summer - but then again the guy did also say that SMS was built in 2005 when we got relegated :s I think there are a number of reasons why it won't be sold for redevelopment. I don't KNOW this but past experience tells me: a) there may well be some sort of planning restriction / covenant on the use of the land. The City Council might not want to relax any such restrictions because of the bad PR b) as the stadium is built on former gasworks, there's a very good chance that the land is contaminated. The cost of remediation would be huge. I do know this as I was involved in a project to turn former gasworks (elsewhere) into hospital car parking. The remediation costs made the scheme unviable. Fighting Planning restrictions and remediation costs would add significantly to the cost of the land and, in uncertain housebuilding times, I think most developers would look and then walk on.
nick1579 Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 We could play at Fleming Park next season - didn't do me any harm
SaintBobby Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Its the economics of the stadium that ive always seen as the big stumbling block to administration, but i am assuming that St Marys stadium Ltd will be passed to the new owners, on the basis that Aviva transfer the loan note and are comfortable that the new owners can fulfil their financial obligations. One thing is for sure though, Aviva are owed 23 million, they will not walk away with 1p 10p 20p or even 30 p in the pound, they would either hold on to it or do something else with it, it it came to that, but new owners taking on the debt, would suit them perfectly. I'm not sure Aviva's negotiating hand is very strong though. They might just have to accept we can't repay £23m. And the problem for them is that the asset they are inheriting is worth nowhere near £23m. Point taken that it may be worth more than £1m for potential property development - but certainly nowhere near £23m. It still seems to me that Aviva would probably have to sell it on to "AFC Saints" for massively less than £23m.
Mole Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Amid all the doom and gloom i am pleased to announce that the plum orchard has been planted.
trousers Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Well, they haven't closed it since 2004 when Derby took advantage. Why would they suddenly do it now? How do we know for sure that the Derby "loophole" hasn't been closed at some stage during the last 5 years. I doubt it's something the Football League would have shouted from the rooftops.
trousers Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Amid all the doom and gloom i am pleased to announce that the plum orchard has been planted. Hardy Bullace?
SaintBobby Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Semi-seriously...(although with the emphasis on semi)...does anyone know if Eastleigh's Silverlake stadium can legally host League One games? Or whether it could be rendered fit for such a purpose? I see their record attendance is just over 3,000 (for a game vs Saints in July 2006) If capacity could be increased over the Summer - to say 9,000 with some temporary stands..... Like I say, emphasis on "semi" rather than "serious"...
Um Bongo Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 .... " Jackson's Farm Holdings Inc " Don't think we own it anymore.
Danny Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 How do we know for sure that the Derby "loophole" hasn't been closed at some stage during the last 5 years. I doubt it's something the Football League would have shouted from the rooftops. Well seeing as the Football League themselves said today they wouldn't be docking Saints any points, it suggests they haven't closed it. Unless you think the Football League are lying?
Red And White Barmy Army Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 So are our debts going to be significantly reduced because of the stadium now? meaning that the debt repayments are significantly less and therefore we might actually stand more of a chance of making a profit month on month even if we're in league 1? If so, this would seem to be the end of our constant downfall since 2005 and we could start building again. What debts would we have left exactly after admin if we do or don't find a buyer?? do we own staplewood outright or is there debt on that as well?
OldNick Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 So are our debts going to be significantly reduced because of the stadium now? meaning that the debt repayments are significantly less and therefore we might actually stand more of a chance of making a profit month on month even if we're in league 1? If so, this would seem to be the end of our constant downfall since 2005 and we could start building again. What debts would we have left exactly after admin if we do or don't find a buyer?? do we own staplewood outright or is there debt on that as well? I think we rent Staplewood
SaintBobby Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 So are our debts going to be significantly reduced because of the stadium now? meaning that the debt repayments are significantly less and therefore we might actually stand more of a chance of making a profit month on month even if we're in league 1? If so, this would seem to be the end of our constant downfall since 2005 and we could start building again. What debts would we have left exactly after admin if we do or don't find a buyer?? do we own staplewood outright or is there debt on that as well? I'm only hypothesising - and it would, of course, require us to go into administration....
70's Mike Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I think we rent Staplewood i think we own half of it and rent the extension fields added a few years ago
Gemmel Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I think we rent Staplewood I think we own part and rent part, though not 100% sure
Mole Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Hardy Bullace? No, one is a victoria and one a.n.other variety.
badgerx16 Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Not being a 'whizzkid', but on trying to rationalise the intricacies of the SLH / PLC arrangement and it's relationship to points deductions; Whilst it may be smoke and mirrors financially, surely the FL can only deal with, and respond to, the football club, as that is it's member organisation, and any deduction has to be based on the viability of that entity. As far as I can see, those PLC clubs that have had deductions have suffered because the PLC / club itself became insolvent, such as Leeds. Don't bite my head off if I am wrong.
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Points deduction or not - if there's no money to pay the bills the players aren't going to be around very long. Anyone got some boots and a free afternoon Saturday?
saintgert76 Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Thinking aloud here - but wonder if this is part of the loophole. Desperately clutching at straws...but.... Could SLH tell Norwich Union "Sorry, we can't keep up our mortgage payments, here are the keys for the ground. It's all yours." NU then have a white elephant on their hands. They rent the stadium back to the club for the remaining 3 games. £23m of debt cleared.... Or NU sell the ground to developers and we go bust a la Aldershot
Saint_clark Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 But surely this is not fair on the other clubs that have lost points. Sorry if I don't stay awake at night worrying about the unfairness of it all. Besides, there was nothing to stop them doing this. How many clubs are actually owned by a parent company anyway? I thought the majority were owned by a consortium of people or one person.
trousers Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 The BBC are questioning the 'no points penalty' stance I see... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/7976473.stm It is possible that moves to put the club's parent company, rather than the club itself, into administration will save it from triggering the automatic 10-point deduction imposed by the Football League. However, BBC Sport understands that if a significant proportion of the club's debt is wiped out by such a move, it could still be at the discretion of the League whether a points penalty is imposed.
alpine_saint Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 The BBC are questioning the 'no points penalty' stance I see... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/7976473.stm It is possible that moves to put the club's parent company, rather than the club itself, into administration will save it from triggering the automatic 10-point deduction imposed by the Football League. However, BBC Sport understands that if a significant proportion of the club's debt is wiped out by such a move, it could still be at the discretion of the League whether a points penalty is imposed. Well that's SFC f**ked then. The footballing authorities hate anyone outside of London, the NW or the NE...
Graffito Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 "..if a significant proportion of the club's debt is wiped out ..it could still be at the discretion of the League whether a points penalty is imposed." There's an "if" in there. The biggest debt's the mortgage. It's not clear, to me at least, who actually has the mortgage on the ground, what charges there may be on the mortgage and what is likely to happen to the ground. I doubt it will be sold for redevelopment for the reasons Bridge Too Far has given above and I believe the land will not currently be designated for residential use. The ground itself is no use without a football team to play in it. Aviva would surely want to ensure Saints continue to play there so as to service the mortgage. In which case the biggest debt would remain with the football club and under current rules this appears to mean no points deduction.
Junior Mullet Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Look folks..... SLH being insolvent and possibly going into administration is not much different, for example, if Roman Abramovich became bankrupt. It's the club's owner that has become insolvent not the club itself. Hence no points deduction on a strict interpretation of what we all understand but discounting any particular FA ruiles that we don't know about. It does naturally follow however that unless the club can find someone or some group with the money to buy the club and pay any club debts the club will become insolvent and then we really are fooked, the points deduction then becomes the least of our worries. I have faith that someone will now step in and buy the club. I just hope that it's not Rupert and cronies. We need a fresh start and this could be the moment we get rid of Lowe and co for good. I just have a sneaking suspicion that he will want to be part of any takeover.......
buctootim Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 The BBC are questioning the 'no points penalty' stance I see... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/7976473.stm It is possible that moves to put the club's parent company, rather than the club itself, into administration will save it from triggering the automatic 10-point deduction imposed by the Football League. However, BBC Sport understands that if a significant proportion of the club's debt is wiped out by such a move, it could still be at the discretion of the League whether a points penalty is imposed. I imagine Lowe et al have taken good legal advice on this and soundings from the FL. SLH directors will probably argue that SLH was a leisure company with diverse interests in functions management, catering, insurance etc and that the debts belong to those interests. By the magic of accounting the football club could appear relatively debt free (it doesnt hold the SMS mortgage for example). Perhaps the FL have bought this line and the penalty wont be applied. After all its in no-ones interests to have a recent ex prem club go under - it makes the whole football system looked flawed and unsustainable - God forbid.
SaintRichmond Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Well seeing as the Football League themselves said today they wouldn't be docking Saints any points, it suggests they haven't closed it. Unless you think the Football League are lying? WHO from the Football League ?? ......... (the toilet dispensoer operative doesn't count ....) For example, the BBBc seem to think we will get docked the Ten points .... ( as do I )
Pancake Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 WHO from the Football League ?? ......... (the toilet dispensoer operative doesn't count ....) For example, the BBBc seem to think we will get docked the Ten points .... ( as do I ) I thought you said the views of the toilet dispensoer (sic) operative didnt count...
SaintRichmond Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 I thought you said the views of the toilet dispensoer (sic) operative didnt count... Thank you ................ exit stage left, trailing a mop ..........
Danny Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 WHO from the Football League ?? ......... (the toilet dispensoer operative doesn't count ....) For example, the BBBc seem to think we will get docked the Ten points .... ( as do I ) Well, seeing as it came from their official spokesman, it is the official position of the League - unless their press officers are in the habit of lying just to confuse people on football forums. Plus, the BBC do not say we will get docked 10 points at all - all they have said is that the league can dock points if they think an unfair advantage has been gained. At no point is there an inference that this is the situation at Saints.
wild-saint Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 Loathe him or Luvvie him Lowe didnt get to where he is now without a plan and bunch of highly paid advisors that have looked in to the introcate detail of all things SFC. As I see it SMS is owned (and the debt serviced) by SLH PLC. they then in turn rent the ground to SFC. Thus all assets are protected from trading issues and vice versa. So SLH goes into Administration wiping all debts on the ground. Administrators then have the job of selling the ground to gain as much money possible for the creditors (NU). The city council are very unlikely to grant a permission for use of the land for anything other than a sports stadium. So NU have a choice of either selling to the highest bidder who will only ever be a consortum who want the football club for whatever they offer or they hold the ground a charge a rental for use to the same consortium. It seems to me as Lowe will ride in with a consortium upon administration gain 100% control of the club and either buy the stadium at a low price or lease it back again at lowprice. He will then have a financially viable club and significantly increased shareholding. The only other option I can see is another consortium coming in and offering the administrator more dosh. points deduction or no points deduction someone will emerge a winner and IMO it wil be lowe as I personally dont think this devious man hasnt got a plan.
Bourno Posted 1 April, 2009 Posted 1 April, 2009 But surely this is not fair on the other clubs that have lost points. I agree. Whilst I don't want to see a points deduction and relegation, If SLH goes into admin then we would deserve it. It would not be fair on the other clubs if we get off on a technicality.
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