trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 but the only way they would sell at present is at rock bottom prices. If we manage to stay up the extra income will be 10-20% in what the club can charge. Couldn't they have started selling season tickets 'on time' at Championship rates with the proviso that they would refund 10 - 20% if we were to be relegated? Wouldn't that have covered all bases? Or maybe our financial plight simply means a company can't trade in 'futures' if it's about to go under? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Couldn't they have started selling season tickets 'on time' at Championship rates with the proviso that they would refund 10 - 20% if we were to be relegated? Wouldn't that have covered all bases? Or maybe our financial plight simply means a company can't trade in 'futures' if it's about to go under? could have but what a nightmare or accounting.The vat etc and costs of reinbursement would be quite high.Also if the club felt there was a chance of us going into admin it would be a poor thing to do.For all the things that are pointed at them i dont think they intentionally go out to upset the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Thats fair comment i am fair sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 It would be exactly the same situation regardless of whether the club operated as a public or private limited company. Maybe re the financial scenario. the reason I hate this particular plc is because I (like many thousnads like me) don't like the men who run it. If it were owned and run by someone who really did care for the club and what it stands for to the fans, then maybe we as fans might have already rallied and saved it. If we come out of this with RL at the helm, I would be very dissappointed to put it mildly. Much as I would obviously prefer being safe at this stage of the season, I do actually get an adrenalin rush just looking at the table and the fixtures right now. The finances do not excite me, they rile me, and for that reason I want this season over with ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northam soul Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 but the only way they would sell at present is at rock bottom prices. If we manage to stay up the extra income will be 10-20% in what the club can charge. Perhaps the lack of a loan signing may be due to us not being able to raise the money. I agree but cashflow is king and without these season ticket sales we must be suffering badly. There will be people who will renew whatever so perhaps the club could of asked for £100 deposits until the price is known then pay the balance later.They already know what they want to charge for 1) Championship + 2) League 1 so why not put two prices out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Thinking out loud here....why have we continued to play David McGoldrick if we owe Notts County a "6 figure sum" based (I assume) on appearances? This may explain why we havent moved in the loans market recently. Maybe there is an embargo on us.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I agree but cashflow is king and without these season ticket sales we must be suffering badly. There will be people who will renew whatever so perhaps the club could of asked for £100 deposits until the price is known then pay the balance later.They already know what they want to charge for 1) Championship + 2) League 1 so why not put two prices out there. Yep, a deposit + balance payment scheme makes sense to me...which means the 'only' reason for the ST delay that holds water is that administration was/is a foregone conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Yep, a deposit + balance payment scheme makes sense to me...which means the 'only' reason for the ST delay that holds water is that administration was/is a foregone conclusion? i dont agree but only a few people would know for certain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 This may explain why we havent moved in the loans market recently. Maybe there is an embargo on us.. I reckon that's highly unlikely simply because it would have leaked out a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I don't know jack sh1t, so I will await the answer....but surely it is the PLC that will be put into administration, and the club will be sold off as a going concern!! I have said in the past, that this is RL's game-plan, as nothing else really makes sense, I hope I am wrong:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I don't know jack sh1t, so I will await the answer....but surely it is the PLC that will be put into administration, and the club will be sold off as a going concern!! I have said in the past, that this is RL's game-plan, as nothing else really makes sense, I hope I am wrong:( But there is something called 'joint and several liability' I think. This is where a parent company can be responsible for its associate companies and vice versa. Quite often contracts include a parent company guarantee and, I assume, the reverse can apply. But I don't know this for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 maybe its a really good time time for Wilde to come up with that £7 million he promised, and that Hone and Co then spent, and he never delivered! go one Michael, do the right thing, you know you should! or maybe Lowe and Co should issue some new shares - I am sure Crouch would buy them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Of course i was lying StM, it stands to reason doesnt it? Lol No i wasen't saying you were lying nickh just that from what i know very few people know the true finance numbers. If you knew the numbers were paid up then that would mean you know one of the "inner circle" if you will, which would also mean you must know other things happening behind the scene. Which i don't think you do. Where as FF i know does as do others. So not saying your lying nickh just that probably the person who told you that does't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Has anyone heard anything about us failing to pay a six figure transfer payment to Notts County for McGoldrick? Apparently their chairman mentioned it in their programme notes or something like that Perhaps we're not paying because he's 'not fit for purpose'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Very reasonable actually.... I guess it's a `how long is a peice of string' type question, but how much are we talking here to pay the administrator? £10,000, £50,000, £100,000, £250,000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I guess it's a `how long is a peice of string' type question, but how much are we talking here to pay the administrator? £10,000, £50,000, £100,000, £250,000? Depends on how it's calculated (i.e. fixed amount, daily rate, hourly rate etc.) but I bet you wouldn't get much change, if any, out of £800 per day per person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I guess it's a `how long is a peice of string' type question, but how much are we talking here to pay the administrator? £10,000, £50,000, £100,000, £250,000? Read up Bournemouth's nightmare - it is a LOT and even then it didn't solve the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Depends on how it's calculated (i.e. fixed amount, daily rate, hourly rate etc.) but I bet you wouldn't get much change, if any, out of £800 per day per person. and how many people would be required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Depends on how it's calculated (i.e. fixed amount, daily rate, hourly rate etc.) but I bet you wouldn't get much change, if any, out of £800 per day per person. So, I'd venture we're talking a hearty 6 figures then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 if an administrator is put in place would the board/executive level employees be effectively out of a job. In other words, do they (Lowe etc) get paid to run the club when effectively someone else is doing it for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 (edited) No i wasen't saying you were lying nickh just that from what i know very few people know the true finance numbers. If you knew the numbers were paid up then that would mean you know one of the "inner circle" if you will, which would also mean you must know other things happening behind the scene. Which i don't think you do. Where as FF i know does as do others. So not saying your lying nickh just that probably the person who told you that does't know. Duncan knows a lot of people at the club there is no doubt of that, but it doesnt mean that the info he has been supplied with is correct. I know that the info that the IR have been paid up would be correct. Edited 24 March, 2009 by OldNick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Read up Bournemouth's nightmare - it is a LOT and even then it didn't solve the problem Yep Chewton Glens champagne is very dear, all reclaimable as well against any company the administrator is overseeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Read up Bournemouth's nightmare - it is a LOT and even then it didn't solve the problem or QPR who came out of admin in more debt than when they went in, had a loan taken out to a Paraguay loan shark which was secured on the ground for £10m less than it was worth and included £1m a year interest. Also the administrator became a company director of the loan sharks as soon as we came out of admin. It can get a lot worse, believe me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Yep Chewton Glens champagne is very dear, all reclaimable as well against any company the administrator is overseeing. Yep somewhere in the region of Surman's fire sale value should cover that. Wait for the yepls of shock from those who advocated this route Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I guess it's a `how long is a peice of string' type question, but how much are we talking here to pay the administrator? £10,000, £50,000, £100,000, £250,000?the latter end I would suggest and perhaps a lot more. A company Iknow had his stock put into auction and not only did he have to pay the auctions full charges but the administrator put on 15% as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoswellSaint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 If Clapham Saint works for an administration company, maybe he could offer his services at a discounted rate. Generate good will in the Southampton area for not ripping the club off, leading eventually to more business from other Southampton companies. Clapham - you know it makes sense! :-) (unless he is not in the business, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 If Clapham Saint works for an administration company, maybe he could offer his services at a discounted rate. Generate good will in the Southampton area for not ripping the club off, leading eventually to more business from other Southampton companies. Clapham - you know it makes sense! :-) (unless he is not in the business, of course) I wonder if RL has any contacts in his world of high finance and hedge funds () who are administrators and who might do the job on the cheap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I guess it's a `how long is a peice of string' type question, but how much are we talking here to pay the administrator? £10,000, £50,000, £100,000, £250,000? Depends on how long the administration lasts. The administrator (and all of his staff working on the job) will be charged out at an hourly rate. As you say, how long is a peice of string but on a job the size of saints I would anticipate more than you have suggested. Ultimately the fees aren't paid by whoever owns the club going forward they are paid out of the funds that the administrator gets from selling off the assets (i.e. players/the "club") and reduce the amount that can be paid out to the creditors. This means that Barclays/Aviva/HMRC would effectively be taking the brunt of the cost becuase they will receive less than if the administrator were working for free. The fees would however make it a lot more difficult for the administrator to be able to pay off all of the football related debts. Possibly causing issues with regard to the points deduction rules, (which others on this site are more up to date with than I am). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I wonder if RL has any contacts in his world of high finance and hedge funds () who are administrators and who might do the job on the cheap? Nope. Can't think of anyone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Depends on how long the administration lasts. The administrator (and all of his staff working on the job) will be charged out at an hourly rate. As you say, how long is a peice of string but on a job the size of saints I would anticipate more than you have suggested. Ultimately the fees aren't paid by whoever owns the club going forward they are paid out of the funds that the administrator gets from selling off the assets (i.e. players/the "club") and reduce the amount that can be paid out to the creditors. This means that Barclays/Aviva/HMRC would effectively be taking the brunt of the cost becuase they will receive less than if the administrator were working for free. The fees would however make it a lot more difficult for the administrator to be able to pay off all of the football related debts. Possibly causing issues with regard to the points deduction rules, (which others on this site are more up to date with than I am). Seems like company administration is the business to be in then. Funny, I don't remember it being on the Career Advisor's list of potential occupations at school. Pastry chef was though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Bournemouth paid Gerald Krasner upwards of £100k while they were in administration. It kind of detracts from the point of administration, i.e. bringing the cost base down dramatically so the company can continue trading, to be paying out that sort of money, but hey ho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 or QPR who came out of admin in more debt than when they went in, had a loan taken out to a Paraguay loan shark which was secured on the ground for £10m less than it was worth and included £1m a year interest. Also the administrator became a company director of the loan sharks as soon as we came out of admin. It can get a lot worse, believe me. They should of used "Stanleys" administrators, he posts on here, so get him to give you their number. With Stanleys administrators, all debts get wiped off, the board all leave, shareholders get feck all and some mega rich guy comes and takes you over so you can start again next season trouble free. .... it's easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Bournemouth paid Gerald Krasner upwards of £100k while they were in administration. It kind of detracts from the point of administration, i.e. bringing the cost base down dramatically so the company can continue trading, to be paying out that sort of money, but hey ho... If Bournmouth fees were £100k then maybe I was too bullish above when I said upwards of £250.... I would have thought saints would be similar as although we are a "bigger club" the work required should be similar. How longer were Bournmouth in Administration? You could probably work out a rough monthly cost which wouldn't be a million miles off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 If Clapham Saint works for an administration company, maybe he could offer his services at a discounted rate. Generate good will in the Southampton area for not ripping the club off, leading eventually to more business from other Southampton companies. Clapham - you know it makes sense! :-) (unless he is not in the business, of course) I would hate for Saints to go into Admin.... but it would be interesting to work on it should we get it. Sadly I wouldn't be allowed anywhere near it if we do as I would have a conflict of interest. Pah... stupid professional ethics :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 If Bournmouth fees were £100k then maybe I was too bullish above when I said upwards of £250.... I would have thought saints would be similar as although we are a "bigger club" the work required should be similar. How longer were Bournmouth in Administration? You could probably work out a rough monthly cost which wouldn't be a million miles off. They were in it for quite a while. Entered at some point in the second half of last season (hence getting the 10 point deduction that ultimately relegated them) and only exited at the last possible moment - I think they had to be out of admin a week before the season started in order to get their "Golden Share" passed on to the new company. I don't know the figures involved, apart from that it was 6 figures and Krasner had two other people working for him on the case. Needless to say, he didn't exactly slum it at the local Travelodge either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Nope. Can't think of anyone.... Hexalls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I would hate for Saints to go into Admin.... but it would be interesting to work on it should we get it. Sadly I wouldn't be allowed anywhere near it if we do as I would have a conflict of interest. Pah... stupid professional ethics :mad: Since when have ethics been a requisite for the financial services industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Since when have ethics been a requisite for the financial services industry? You say that but... the focus in my exams (back in the day) was on perception of ethics rather than what was actually happening in any given situation. :smt017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I would hate for Saints to go into Admin.... but it would be interesting to work on it should we get it. Sadly I wouldn't be allowed anywhere near it if we do as I would have a conflict of interest. Pah... stupid professional ethics :mad: How can a bog standard 'fan on a messageboard' have a conflict of interest.....unless you're a lot closer to the action than you're letting on of course....? p.s. Do you have a scanner in your loft per chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Hexalls Hexalls or Hextalls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 How can a bog standard 'fan on a messageboard' have a conflict of interest.....unless you're a lot closer to the action than you're letting on of course....? p.s. Do you have a scanner in your loft per chance? A fan of any description wouldn't be allowed to work on the administration of their club full stop. Anything that might influence your decision making could be a conflict of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 They should of used "Stanleys" administrators, he posts on here, so get him to give you their number. With Stanleys administrators, all debts get wiped off, the board all leave, shareholders get feck all and some mega rich guy comes and takes you over so you can start again next season trouble free. .... it's easy Why not use Crouchie's Lawyer's solicitors (if you follow)? Apparently, for £50, they can get all your debts wiped out at a stroke due to some dodgy wording. http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=11365 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Hexalls or Hextalls? hextalls, they even have a "sports insolvency" expert, Elizabeth somethingorother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 http://www.hextalls.com/download.asp?DocID=141 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 24 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 24 March, 2009 hextalls, they even have a "sports insolvency" expert, Elizabeth somethingorother. Indeed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 They should of used "Stanleys" administrators, he posts on here, so get him to give you their number. With Stanleys administrators, all debts get wiped off, the board all leave, shareholders get feck all and some mega rich guy comes and takes you over so you can start again next season trouble free. .... it's easy It's should "have" not should "of". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 As I understand it if we go into Administration the Administrator will try to keep the club running but he has a duty to sell anything that has value to realise money for the creditors. One of those sale consideration will be the club itself. Let's say he sells the clb to a new party (or Lowe Group if you are of the view he will want to purchase). Whatever is agreed, that money is distributed to the creditors hopefully by way of a CVA. Let's say that is 10p in the pound. That would include all "football debts" The purchaser would then have to find money to pay off the other 90% "football debt" in addition to get back the "golden share" allowing the club to continue to play in the football league. That is my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 And my prediction.....IF we go into Administration we will not get someone with buckets of cash. We will limp from one crisis to another and in a few years will disappear alltogether, like a few other clubs are likely to in the next few years. Administration is a scar that will unlikely heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 And my prediction.....IF we go into Administration we will not get someone with buckets of cash. We will limp from one crisis to another and in a few years will disappear alltogether, like a few other clubs are likely to in the next few years. Administration is a scar that will unlikely heal. Weston - have you heard anything from your sources as to whether admin will happen this week or not (apologies if you have posted elsewhere already). cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 I wonder if RL has any contacts in his world of high finance and hedge funds () who are administrators and who might do the job on the cheap? Oh I think it would be a safe bet that it would be far from 'on the cheap' if he was feathering his mates nest into the bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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