Pearson v Wotte

[trousers]

Just one question still buzzing around my head at this late hour....

 

Can someone explain how Poorvliet and Wotte being described by Michael Wilde as a 'Seamless Managment Team' somehow translates into Wotte having no influence on our 1st team performances for the first 2/3rds of the season?

 

I agree that Wotte will deserve plaudits if he keeps us up, due to his tactical u-turning and good fortune to have more 'expensive' players at his disposal but, being the balanced chap that I am, these plaudits will be offset by criticism for the part he played in putting us in the very hole he's trying to get us out of in the first place.

 

What is so wrong with seeing both sides of the coin?

Edited 13 March, 2009 by trousers

[trousers]

I doubt it. You are on here or trawling the internet all the time

 

How would you know that....?

 

p.s. average posts per day for Trousers = 5.42 (approx 0.69% of a given day on average)

 

p.p.s. I'm starting to take this malarkey too seriously again.....

Edited 12 March, 2009 by trousers

[NickG]

Just one question still buzzing around my head at this late hour....

 

Can someone explain how Poorvliet and Wotte being described by Michael Wilde as a 'Seamless Managment Team' somehow translates into Wotte having no influence on our 1st team performances for the first 2/3rds of the season?

 

I agree that Wotte will deserve plaudits if he keeps us up, due to his tactical u-turning and good fortune to have more 'expensive' players at his disposal but, being the balanced chap that I am, these plaudits will be offset by criticism for the part he played in putting us in the very hole he's trying to get us out of in the first place.

 

What is so wrong with seeing both sides of the coin?

 

not saying he wasn't involved at all, but for him to be at fault he needs to have been involved/responsible for where it went wrong specifically.

If that was for example, the picking of players and their formation and subsequent confidence drop - was he anything to do with that?

Seens as how those things changed so much I doubt it

[Fitzhugh Fella]

It has nothing to do with Lowe. It is about Pearson and Wotte and their record to date. Pearson is proving his worth at Leicester and that is our loss. But he has gone and I am fed up with reading attacks on Wotte when he is making a difference, and I hoped for all Saints supporters he suceeds.

 

Lowe made a mistake setting Pearson aside. Lowe made a mistake appointing a man clearly out of his depth to replace him. Lowe is divisive and as soon as there is someone who can come in and give us a future I want him gone. Is that clear enough?

 

Ron, by all means "big" up Wotte (although turning a blind eye to his influence in running with the Dutch football initiative is a tad disingenious) but why do it by comparing his stats with those of Pearson. A) That's just opening up old wounds and B) stats lie because they do not take into consideration all the external factors like the fact Pearson was parachuted in without any knowledge of the club's playing staff while Wotte had a hand in chosing a lot of the squad he inherited.

 

At the end of the day Wotte will be judged on whether he keeps us up or not. If he does then he deserves as much praise as Pearson got and he should be given the chance next season - something Pearson was denied because someone had a vision which turned out to be rather flawed.

[St Paul]

Wotte was very much part of the set up from day one. No matter how much he tries to distance himself from Jan and all that went with it.

 

Wotte stated it was HIS decision to give Dyer a new contract. Therefore we have to assume he was making decisions about first team players. It beggers belief that Dyer was the only first team squad member Wotte made a decision bout, unless he was just trying to big himself up following Dyer's good form at Swansea.

[Mole]

Give me Pearson anyday over the slimy Wotte.

[um pahars]

not saying he wasn't involved at all, but for him to be at fault he needs to have been involved/responsible for where it went wrong specifically.

 

If you're trying to pin down Wotte to specific mistakes, then once again I think you are trying to polarise the discussion.

 

Wotte was an integral part of the Seamless Revolutionary Coaching Set Up. I do believe that Poortvliet had the last say on "most" things, but Wotte was central to the original philosophy along with a few others.

 

A day or so in Wotte was already giving interviews on how the first team would be playing, he said, "We like a passing, attacking game and we like to play with wingers".

 

Go to this link when Wotton signed and you will see that Wotte is all over it:

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10234

 

In particular, the line by Wotton that says, "I met mark Wotte and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in".

 

Wotte was very much involved at the business end of things from May until when Poortvliet got the elbow and neither he, nor the Club, were shy in telling us that.

[saintjay77]

Ron, by all means "big" up Wotte (although turning a blind eye to his influence in running with the Dutch football initiative is a tad disingenious) but why do it by comparing his stats with those of Pearson. A) That's just opening up old wounds and B) stats lie because they do not take into consideration all the external factors like the fact Pearson was parachuted in without any knowledge of the club's playing staff while Wotte had a hand in chosing a lot of the squad he inherited.

 

At the end of the day Wotte will be judged on whether he keeps us up or not. If he does then he deserves as much praise as Pearson got and he should be given the chance next season - something Pearson was denied because someone had a vision which turned out to be rather flawed.

 

Managers are made or broken on the back of results. Nothing else matters most of the time. but when it appears there is argument in favour of something lowe has done all the other comparrisons come out of the wood work.

 

I agree with the rest though and think the differing situations kind of ballence each other out and the only thing that may be compared will be survival or relegation come the end of the season. how we get there is not important so there should be no need for a p|ssing contest based on results.

[CB Fry]

Personally I think Wotte has got a harder job to do and comparing last seasons acheivments to this seasons hopefull survival I would say Wotte did better than Pearson did.

 

I would rather still have Pearson here though and think although it could have gone better for him last season he would have done very well for us this season.

 

I think some get confused about what is trying to be said when comparing last seasons efforts to this. I doubt there are many that would actually want Wotte here ahead of Pearson but just because some people think Wottes job is a little harder this season it doesnt mean they think he is a better manager.

 

To really judge them both I supose Wotte will have to keep us safe this season and have us at least challenging for Automatic promotion next season as Pearson is doing. Only the difference in doing it in the CCC may go to suggest 1 is better than the other.

 

Cant see that happening though so the comparison will probably keep swinging each way every week to give us something to talk about.

 

 

Great post and absolutely correct.

 

It just seems strange how people contort themselves into any ridiculous position just so they can have a dig at the current chairman regardless of whether their argument holds any weight whatsoever.

 

So, all the people now saying how much easier Wotte's job is than Pearsons was.

 

Where are your posts from six weeks ago where you are avidly campaigning for Wotte to be given the job because he knew the players/had the experience/wouldn't be coming in cold/would have it easier/etc/etc.

 

So come on then, chaps. Dig out your posts calling for Wotte to be appointed.

 

I tell you what I thought at the time - no thank you Wotte, no thank you Lowe, lets have someone new. You lot obviously thought something completely opposite at the time, didn't you?

 

After all, internal appointments are always much better than horrible old outsiders coming in and ruining everything. Right?

 

Because surely you're not just making your opinions up as you go along, are you?

[Greenridge]

 

So, all the people now saying how much easier Wotte's job is than Pearsons was.

 

 

I wasn't going to carry on with this thread as I've said my piece however I'll have one last go. Firstly I'd say that I normally enjoy your postings CBF but on this thread your posting style seems unusually confrontational but maybe I'm reading too much into that.

 

Personally I believe Wotte's job is harder than Pearsons due to the position in the league when he took over, without the 3 wins we would have been cut adrift (although they didn't come immediately). If he gets us out of the bottom 3 after the last game then he should be given the key to the city and perhaps RL could have a picture of him in his office instead of the train? It will be a remarkable achievement.

 

What I will say however, and I said in my previous posts, is that the circumstances (outside of the league position) of Wotte taking over were more in his favour than when Pearson came in from the outside. I've stated why previously. These are not facts per se, they are my humble opinion.

[Frank's cousin]

Managers are made or broken on the back of results. Nothing else matters most of the time. but when it appears there is argument in favour of something lowe has done all the other comparrisons come out of the wood work.

 

I agree with the rest though and think the differing situations kind of ballence each other out and the only thing that may be compared will be survival or relegation come the end of the season. how we get there is not important so there should be no need for a p|ssing contest based on results.

 

Indeed, we are always told when attacks are made on Wotte/JP/LOwe that the circumstances of finance etc are irrelevent as its a RESULTS DRIVEN BUSINESS - so i think Ron is right in making Statistical comparisons if comparing the two. Nowt wrong with doing that if looking to discuss the differences between the two, but these things just get turned into a LOwe/Crouch debate or anti lowe rant and I dont think Perason or Wotte deserve that for their contributions.

[OldNick]

Ron, by all means "big" up Wotte (although turning a blind eye to his influence in running with the Dutch football initiative is a tad disingenious) but why do it by comparing his stats with those of Pearson. A) That's just opening up old wounds and B) stats lie because they do not take into consideration all the external factors like the fact Pearson was parachuted in without any knowledge of the club's playing staff while Wotte had a hand in chosing a lot of the squad he inherited.

 

At the end of the day Wotte will be judged on whether he keeps us up or not. If he does then he deserves as much praise as Pearson got and he should be given the chance next season - something Pearson was denied because someone had a vision which turned out to be rather flawed.

Duncan I believe if he keeps us up he deserves higher praise than NP.In the context that a new manager in under LM and LC was always going to get more leeway than a Lowe appointment.Wotte didnt even get a days honeymoon period. Fans like NP for the way he united the fanbase, that was his major plus IMO.I wish we could read back to this time last season and see if all those who worship him now were at that time asking for him to have his contract extended for 3 years. i doubt there were many threads on that then.

It is said that he took on a demotivated squad, but they were only 6 points from the play-offs.He did an adequate job and if we had gone down I suspect the majority of fans lauing him would be distancing themselves now.

Wotte is not gods gift to managment either but he inherited a team in a lot worse state of demotivation than NP did. The fans had turned completely against the whole club and the players were feeling the wrath of fans , and getting booed off many times.

I understand Um's point about being in the background but Jan was in charge of the tactics the style of play and all the other decisions a manager makes.

I suspect many have held positions in companies where they can see the manager making right ricks but not being able to change them until they got the job.

I hope Wotte will save the day, I know RL will have got out of jail to a degree and that will irk some but surely the club staying up is all important not some getting one over RL.

The summer then may bring a change of leadership, I dont know but IMO if Wotte keeps us up he deserves 100% to keep his job.In fact even if we go down, because we need to try for once to keep the club moving as one.

NP has left,the majority of fans were against it including me but the things iam hearing about the new regime should give us hope and that is what I want.

[NickG]

Duncan I believe if he keeps us up he deserves higher praise than NP.In the context that a new manager in under LM and LC was always going to get more leeway than a Lowe appointment.Wotte didnt even get a days honeymoon period. Fans like NP for the way he united the fanbase, that was his major plus IMO.I wish we could read back to this time last season and see if all those who worship him now were at that time asking for him to have his contract extended for 3 years. i doubt there were many threads on that then.

It is said that he took on a demotivated squad, but they were only 6 points from the play-offs.He did an adequate job and if we had gone down I suspect the majority of fans lauing him would be distancing themselves now.

Wotte is not gods gift to managment either but he inherited a team in a lot worse state of demotivation than NP did. The fans had turned completely against the whole club and the players were feeling the wrath of fans , and getting booed off many times.

I understand Um's point about being in the background but Jan was in charge of the tactics the style of play and all the other decisions a manager makes.

I suspect many have held positions in companies where they can see the manager making right ricks but not being able to change them until they got the job.

I hope Wotte will save the day, I know RL will have got out of jail to a degree and that will irk some but surely the club staying up is all important not some getting one over RL.

The summer then may bring a change of leadership, I dont know but IMO if Wotte keeps us up he deserves 100% to keep his job.In fact even if we go down, because we need to try for once to keep the club moving as one.

NP has left,the majority of fans were against it including me but the things iam hearing about the new regime should give us hope and that is what I want.

 

If Svennson had been launched at the start of the season as part of this management team, then had taken over and improved things as Wotte has he would be unanimously congratulated.

Personally I prefer to look at it simply - how is he doing as a manager?

 

Not sulking over who appointed him or who came before, or guessing what influence JP let him have. It is widely reported that he changed training immediately. This shows it wasn't him running the training. He wasn't doing the team talks or on the bench - he was not the first team manager. Judge him on his time as first team manager.

Edited 13 March, 2009 by NickG

[OldNick]

It is widely reported that he changed training immediately. There shows it wasn't him running the training. He wasn't doing the team talks or on the bench - he was not the first team manager. Judge him on his time as first team manager.

 

That is true

[CB Fry]

If he gets us out of the bottom 3 after the last game then he should be given the key to the city and perhaps RL could have a picture of him in his office instead of the train? It will be a remarkable achievement.

 

 

I think if Wotte keeps us up Lowe should give him a full size fully functional classic victorian steam train. Plated with gold. And full of hookers and beer. And with a specially made dutch cafe style cannabis carriage. And a couple of hundred miles of track suspended in the sea going from port solent to Rotterdam. And the keys to the city.

 

Apologies if I am confrontational but I do get ****ed off when people lamely pull the "you're a Lowe luvvie" card when anyone says anything they don't happen to agree with (not referring to you, but it explained my slightly ****y tone).

 

[slickmick]

It is said that he took on a demotivated squad, but they were only 6 points from the play-offs.He did an adequate job and if we had gone down I suspect the majority of fans lauing him would be distancing themselves now.

 

 

We were 6 points from the bottom 3 and they had two games in hand over us. We had also lost 4 of our previous 5 matches, so demotivated would be putting it mildly.

[trousers]

If Svennson had been launched at the start of the season as part of this management team, then had taken over and improved things as Wotte has he would be unanimously congratulated.

 

No-one is saying that Wotte (or Svennson in your analogy) shouldn't be congratulated for what he's doing now. But that doesn't exclude him from criticism regarding his influence (or otherwise) in the past. I would have reacted the same way whether it was Wotte, Svennson or whoever.

 

Again, why do people have this illogical stance that current tense praise and past tense criticism are somehow mutually exclusive?

 

:smt017

Edited 13 March, 2009 by trousers

[NickG]

because in the past tense -he wasn't the manager!

 

I am judging him on that, no idea how he did as academy director! Not that complicated!

[trousers]

because in the past tense -he wasn't the manager!

 

I am judging him on that, no idea how he did as academy director! Not that complicated!

 

What do you understand by the term "seamless management team"?

 

(and, yes, one thing we can agree on is that this isn't complicated.... )

[NickG]

that the players from both camps will have training together and be able to move from youth team to reserves to first team. That the managers will talk about with players and their progress, that reserves/youth players will be aware of tactics/style of first team so that when called upon the players will be able to play their part.

I never read it that Wotte would do first team training/team talks or tactics etc

[trousers]

Wotte: "My role is to assist Jan and give guidance to the Academy and to produce players for the Championship and ultimately the Premier League."

 

Jan Poortvliet today outlined his blueprint for Saints after taking over as head coach.

The 52-year-old former Dutch international gave an impressive press conference after signing a one-year rolling contract.

He will work closely with compatriot Mark Wotte. Together they will look to push through youngsters from the Orchard Homes Academy, schooling them in the traditional Dutch style of total football.

 

Whilst Jan Poortvliet assumes the role of head coach, Mark Wotte will provide the link between the first team and the Club's young talent

 

Wotte hopes that the Dutch duo's Orange revoltion will help transform Saints' fortunes

 

When the call came a second time, Wotte had no hesitation in accepting the role alongside is fellow countryman.

Although the pair have not worked together before, they share the same footballing philosophy

 

Wotte: "A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open-minded and we will discuss everything

 

Hockaday (left) is still buzzing with excitement at the prospect of working with the club's new coaches Jan Poortvliet (centre) and Mark Wotte (right).

In tandem with Reserve boss Stewart Henderson, they will provide a seamless transition from the youth team through to the senior side.

All the club sides will play the same way so that youngsters will be able to slot in when they are ready or required.

 

The Celtic clash at St Mary's will be the first chance for Saints fans to see their new-look side under the fresh management of Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte.

 

Perry jumped at the chance of a return to St Mary's. He was brought on loan by Nigel Pearson who has since been replaced by Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte.

 

 

Holmes believes the passing style of the new managers will suit his game as a creative midfielder who loves to get forward and to have a go.

Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte intend to blend youth and experience into an attractive, attacking force.

 

The new management duo of Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte have scheduled double training sessions every day for the first fortnight to ensure the team are fully fit for a potential promotion push.

Mark Wotte is hoping Michael Svensson can make a remarkable come-back - but the Saints coach is determined not to rush him.

 

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in. "

 

Simon Gillett has signed a new contract which could keep him at St Mary's until 2011. He was uncertain about his future until Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte were appointed to head up the new revolutionary management team.

 

Saints today begin pre-season training with a new-look coaching team in place. Head coach Jan Poortvliet and assistant Mark Wotte will get their first chance to cast an eye over the squad.

 

 

Jason Dodd will remain a fervent Saints fan even though he is no longer part of the club. The long-serving stalwart is no longer part of the coaching set-up with Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte now taking charge.

PLC chairman Rupert Lowe added: "Jan Poortvliet, Mark Wotte and I have all spoken to Nathan and we have offered him a very fair contract which he has so far declined and he is now on a week-to-week basis.

 

Mark Wotte will continue to mirror the first team's approach with an attacking 4-3-3 formation

 

Lowe: "Despite our financial position Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte are very excited about what will be a young dynamic team determined to play fast and attractive football. I hope everyone involved with the Club will get behind Jan, Mark and the team."

(quotes courtesy of http://www.saintsfc.co.uk)

 

So, Wotte and Jan didn't work together then? Hmmm....

 

[trousers]

I never read it that Wotte would do first team training/team talks or tactics etc

 

I don't see how he can form part of a seamless management team without getting involved in the first team tactics, team talks etc....as the quotes above from the OS testify

[NickG]

Wotte: "My role is to assist Jan and give guidance to the Academy and to produce players for the Championship and ultimately the Premier League."

Jan Poortvliet today outlined his blueprint for Saints after taking over as head coach. The 52-year-old former Dutch international gave an impressive press conference after signing a one-year rolling contract.

He will work closely with compatriot Mark Wotte. Together they will look to push through youngsters from the Orchard Homes Academy, schooling them in the traditional Dutch style of total football.

 

Whilst Jan Poortvliet assumes the role of head coach, Mark Wotte will provide the link between the first team and the Club's young talent Wotte hopes that the Dutch duo's Orange revoltion will help transform Saints' fortunes

 

When the call came a second time, Wotte had no hesitation in accepting the role alongside is fellow countryman.

Although the pair have not worked together before, they share the same footballing philosophy

 

Wotte: "A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open-minded and we will discuss everything

 

Hockaday (left) is still buzzing with excitement at the prospect of working with the club's new coaches Jan Poortvliet (centre) and Mark Wotte (right).

In tandem with Reserve boss Stewart Henderson, they will provide a seamless transition from the youth team through to the senior side.All the club sides will play the same way so that youngsters will be able to slot in when they are ready or required.

The Celtic clash at St Mary's will be the first chance for Saints fans to see their new-look side under the fresh management of Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte.

 

Perry jumped at the chance of a return to St Mary's. He was brought on loan by Nigel Pearson who has since been replaced by Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte.

 

 

Holmes believes the passing style of the new managers will suit his game as a creative midfielder who loves to get forward and to have a go.

Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte intend to blend youth and experience into an attractive, attacking force.

 

The new management duo of Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte have scheduled double training sessions every day for the first fortnight to ensure the team are fully fit for a potential promotion push.

 

Mark Wotte is hoping Michael Svensson can make a remarkable come-back - but the Saints coach is determined not to rush him.

 

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in. "

 

Simon Gillett has signed a new contract which could keep him at St Mary's until 2011. He was uncertain about his future until Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte were appointed to head up the new revolutionary management team.

 

Saints today begin pre-season training with a new-look coaching team in place. Head coach Jan Poortvliet and assistant Mark Wotte will get their first chance to cast an eye over the squad.

 

 

Jason Dodd will remain a fervent Saints fan even though he is no longer part of the club. The long-serving stalwart is no longer part of the coaching set-up with Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte now taking charge.

 

PLC chairman Rupert Lowe added: "Jan Poortvliet, Mark Wotte and I have all spoken to Nathan and we have offered him a very fair contract which he has so far declined and he is now on a week-to-week basis.

 

Mark Wotte will continue to mirror the first team's approach with an attacking 4-3-3 formation (mirror-therefore not doing first team!!!Lowe: "Despite our financial position Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte are very excited about what will be a young dynamic team determined to play fast and attractive football. I hope everyone involved with the Club will get behind Jan, Mark and the team."

 

(quotes courtesy of http://www.saintsfc.co.uk)

 

So, Wotte and Jan didn't work together then? Hmmm....

 

 

 

thanks for finding quotes showing how good my memory is!

[NickG]

I don't see how he can form part of a seamless management team without getting involved in the first team tactics, team talks etc....as the quotes above from the OS testify

 

as above, think those quotes are saying what I said - seemless transition for the players etc, he would mirror the first team -therefore implying copying not leading! Not saying he never spoke or had nothing to do with Jan but he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close.

 

Those quotes are almost exactly my explanation/understanding above

[saintjay77]

as above, think those quotes are saying what I said - seemless transition for the players etc, he would mirror the first team -therefore implying copying not leading! Not saying he never spoke or had nothing to do with Jan but he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close.

 

Those quotes are almost exactly my explanation/understanding above

 

I think the quotes can be read either way and its easy to see where each side of the argument is coming from. Personally i see it more the same as you but that doesnt mean he doesnt have a share of the blame for the 1st 2/3 of the season.

 

I dont think its fair to hang JP out to dry when they were brought in together but I also dont think Wotte was the leader in the mess up that preceeded his 1st team appointment.

[NickG]

sure he was involved, we don't know how much. My take is the quotes and what I saw on match days is that is was a minor involvement in key day to day first team issues (selection/tactics/motivation). This also seems right due to those all changing when he took the lead.

 

However, even if you go down the line of we don't know if he did have more -surely its worth giving him a chance?

[trousers]

sure he was involved, we don't know how much. My take is the quotes and what I saw on match days is that is was a minor involvement in key day to day first team issues (selection/tactics/motivation). This also seems right due to those all changing when he took the lead.

 

However, even if you go down the line of we don't know if he did have more -surely its worth giving him a chance?

 

I'm repeating myself ad-nauseum here but as it doesn't appear to be sinking in, here goes one more try...

 

I'm AGREEING with you about supporting Wotte since Poortvliet "resigned".

 

This doesn't mean that I can't make a judgement or have an opinion on his involvement prior to that. As you rightly say, none of us know how much he was actually involved in influencing Jan's decisions - it could be "a lot" or it could be "not much", but we can't rule either out....

 

so, just to recap (yet again).....I AGREE THAT WOTTE IS DOING A BETTER JOB AT GALVANISING THE TEAM SINCE POORTVLIET LEFT AND THAT WE SHOULD GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO PROVE HOW GOOD HE IS.

 

 

(sorry for writing that in shouty capitals - just trying to make it as clear as possible that I agree with you about the here-and-now)

[slickmick]

Wotte: "My role is to assist Jan

 

Not saying he never spoke or had nothing to do with Jan but he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close.

 

Those quotes are almost exactly my explanation/understanding above

 

 

Depends how you read it.

[slickmick]

My first impression after hearing all the media statements was that Wotte and Jan were working as a team and it was a joint decision on what players should play ect. But clearly this was not how it ended up, hence the fall out with Wotte and JP.

[OldNick]

We were 6 points from the bottom 3 and they had two games in hand over us. We had also lost 4 of our previous 5 matches, so demotivated would be putting it mildly.

If you say that the Plymouth game was nobodies as it is hard to say who had the control on the day, but typical of saints others have the manager arrive on the day and they win (eg Notts forest) but we lose.We indeed lost 4 and drew 1 of the previous 5 including fa cup and so would have been low in confidence after the poor appointment of D&G. NP did ok hestill took us to the brink, although it was great that day when we were saved

[SaintBobby]

It would be a decent achievement for Wotte to get us out of this mire.

 

I liked Pearson a lot, but do soemtimes think his achievements are a little over-stated simply because of the drama of the last day escape. Did we really only win 3 games with him as manager? It just sometimes seems to feel a lot more than that.

 

I also think we need a bit of a reality check in terms of how acceptable/disappointing our league position is. Last season, we finished 20th, two points clear of relegation. Since then, we have dramatically pared back the squad and radically diminished the wage bill. All things being equal, we should expect to fare worse than last year.

 

If we do manage to escape relegation, the 2008/9 season should be seen as a footballing and financial triumph compared to 2007/8.

 

If we are relegated, this would understandably equate to failure. But we still would have done better than last year on any sort of "points per pound" basis.

 

I'd retain Wotte if he continues his current average of 1.33 points a game, even if we end up in League One.

[saintjay77]

Depends how you read it.

 

The players were all there to assist Jan too and so was Hockaday and all the other staff. Doesnt make them all assistant managers though and Wotte never claimed to have that role.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Wotte: "My role is to assist Jan and give guidance to the Academy and to produce players for the Championship and ultimately the Premier League."

 

Jan Poortvliet today outlined his blueprint for Saints after taking over as head coach.

The 52-year-old former Dutch international gave an impressive press conference after signing a one-year rolling contract.

He will work closely with compatriot Mark Wotte. Together they will look to push through youngsters from the Orchard Homes Academy, schooling them in the traditional Dutch style of total football.

 

Whilst Jan Poortvliet assumes the role of head coach, Mark Wotte will provide the link between the first team and the Club's young talent

 

Wotte hopes that the Dutch duo's Orange revoltion will help transform Saints' fortunes

 

When the call came a second time, Wotte had no hesitation in accepting the role alongside is fellow countryman.

Although the pair have not worked together before, they share the same footballing philosophy

 

Wotte: "A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open-minded and we will discuss everything

 

Hockaday (left) is still buzzing with excitement at the prospect of working with the club's new coaches Jan Poortvliet (centre) and Mark Wotte (right).

In tandem with Reserve boss Stewart Henderson, they will provide a seamless transition from the youth team through to the senior side.

All the club sides will play the same way so that youngsters will be able to slot in when they are ready or required.

 

The Celtic clash at St Mary's will be the first chance for Saints fans to see their new-look side under the fresh management of Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte.

 

Perry jumped at the chance of a return to St Mary's. He was brought on loan by Nigel Pearson who has since been replaced by Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte.

 

 

Holmes believes the passing style of the new managers will suit his game as a creative midfielder who loves to get forward and to have a go.

Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte intend to blend youth and experience into an attractive, attacking force.

 

The new management duo of Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte have scheduled double training sessions every day for the first fortnight to ensure the team are fully fit for a potential promotion push.

Mark Wotte is hoping Michael Svensson can make a remarkable come-back - but the Saints coach is determined not to rush him.

 

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in. "

 

Simon Gillett has signed a new contract which could keep him at St Mary's until 2011. He was uncertain about his future until Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte were appointed to head up the new revolutionary management team.

 

Saints today begin pre-season training with a new-look coaching team in place. Head coach Jan Poortvliet and assistant Mark Wotte will get their first chance to cast an eye over the squad.

 

 

Jason Dodd will remain a fervent Saints fan even though he is no longer part of the club. The long-serving stalwart is no longer part of the coaching set-up with Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte now taking charge.

PLC chairman Rupert Lowe added: "Jan Poortvliet, Mark Wotte and I have all spoken to Nathan and we have offered him a very fair contract which he has so far declined and he is now on a week-to-week basis.

 

Mark Wotte will continue to mirror the first team's approach with an attacking 4-3-3 formation

 

Lowe: "Despite our financial position Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte are very excited about what will be a young dynamic team determined to play fast and attractive football. I hope everyone involved with the Club will get behind Jan, Mark and the team."

(quotes courtesy of http://www.saintsfc.co.uk)

 

So, Wotte and Jan didn't work together then? Hmmm....

 

 

Trousers, you have surpassed yourself. You have certainly exposed the re-writing of history by the club and how some on here have fallen for it.

Edited 13 March, 2009 by Fitzhugh Fella
2 goes to spell yourself correctly

[trousers]

Trousers, you have surpassed yourself. You have certainly exposed the re-writing of history by the club and how some on here have fallen for it.

 

And, if one searches on the OS, there's another 18 pages of quotes from where those came from.....

[trousers]

The players were all there to assist Jan too and so was Hockaday and all the other staff. Doesnt make them all assistant managers though and Wotte never claimed to have that role.

 

Wotte: "My role is to assist Jan"

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in"

 

:confused:

[trousers]

...

[um pahars]

Wotte: "My role is to assist Jan"

 

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in"

 

:confused:

 

The introduction to the Q & A's following the AGM on the Official Site is as follows:

 

Following today's AGM for Southampton Leisure Holdings PLC, shareholders were joined by Saints head coach Jan Poortlviet (JP) and Assistant First Team Coach/Academy Director Mark Wotte (MW), who spent an hour answering any footballing questions.........

 

The full transcript is in here and Wotte is all over it answering questions involving first team affairs.

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=11129

 

All who I have spoken to at the Club are clear that Wotte was very much involved in the first team under Poortvliet's stewardship. To suggest otherwise is rewriting history.

[NickG]

I'm repeating myself ad-nauseum here but as it doesn't appear to be sinking in, here goes one more try...

 

I'm AGREEING with you about supporting Wotte since Poortvliet "resigned".

 

This doesn't mean that I can't make a judgement or have an opinion on his involvement prior to that. As you rightly say, none of us know how much he was actually involved in influencing Jan's decisions - it could be "a lot" or it could be "not much", but we can't rule either out....

 

so, just to recap (yet again).....I AGREE THAT WOTTE IS DOING A BETTER JOB AT GALVANISING THE TEAM SINCE POORTVLIET LEFT AND THAT WE SHOULD GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO PROVE HOW GOOD HE IS.

 

 

(sorry for writing that in shouty capitals - just trying to make it as clear as possible that I agree with you about the here-and-now)

 

agree with all of that. As said my guess, and is the assistance talked about were not in areas that were the reasons why we are where we are, hence to me he starts with a clean sheet.

 

I base that on the quotes listed - all seem to be about structure, youth team reserve team, copying Jan's first team with the youth etc -not leading on tactics or motivation.

Also base it on the things he clearly has done differently since becoming manager.

 

Think its melodramatic to say people are re-writing history when all we are pointing out was that the academy director was not responsible for the first team!

[um pahars]

agree with all of that. As said my guess, and is the assistance talked about were not in areas that were the reasons why we are where we are, hence to me he starts with a clean sheet.

 

So he was only involved in the bits that went well then???

 

I base that on the quotes listed - all seem to be about structure, youth team reserve team, copying Jan's first team with the youth etc -not leading on tactics or motivation.

Also base it on the things he clearly has done differently since becoming manager.

 

And there are numerous quotes and examples of his involvement in the first team, it's just you choose to ignore them for some reason.

 

Think its melodramatic to say people are re-writing history when all we are pointing out was that the academy director was not responsible for the first team!

 

And to finish it off, alongside his Academy Director role, he was also Assistant First Team Coach, which I imagine would be assisting the first team coach with the running/coaching of the first team.

[NickG]

So he was only involved in the bits that went well then???what's gone well this season? you must be more positive than me!

 

 

 

And there are numerous quotes and examples of his involvement in the first team, it's just you choose to ignore them for some reason.I am not saying, for the god knows how many times, that I don't think he was involved with first team - but that it was not his main role and he was not the driver of the team

 

 

 

And to finish it off, alongside his Academy Director role, he was also Assistant First Team Coach, which I imagine would be assisting the first team coach with the running/coaching of the first team.numerous reports are that he did not take training until he took over, not saying he was never there or never spoke to players before you get carried away again

 

I don't care who recruited him, don't care what he was like in a role he no longer does, but am judging him in the role he is doing now -which he is doing pretty good!

[um pahars]

I am not saying, for the god knows how many times, that I don't think he was involved with first team - but that it was not his main role and he was not the driver of the team

 

You have changed your tune somewhat as you started off with:

 

but he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close.

 

when in fact he was the assistant first team manager (or assistant first team coach as Poortvliet never got the manager moniker).

 

And:

 

My take is the quotes and what I saw on match days is that is was a minor involvement

 

Being the Assistant First Team Manager/Coach is hardly having a "minor involvement".

 

Of course he was not the main driver of the team, I don#t think anyone has suggested that, but I would suggest that his involvement was far from minor and his role as Assistant First team Coach has him heavily involved in first team affairs.

[NickG]

however you want to play games with words etc he was not no1 for first team -whether he had influence, tried and failed, didn't bother, wasn't meant to even try, neither of us know.

 

JP, justifyably or not, took the blame and left.

 

As often happens, here and elsewhere, someone from within the club was promoted to manager following an unsuccessful time -while they were at the club. Is it not normal to judge those managers on how they do -as a manager?

 

Since being manager;

 

tactics have changed

team have appeared to have more confidence and team spirit.

results have improved

 

And, going back to OP, with less resources and taking a team over in lower position, with a longer period of poor performance, with the horrible (and confidence sapping) run without home win, he has statistically out performed NP.

 

Most on here rate NP (myself included).

 

Therefore I personally think that anyone who does not rate him - currently -is being petty and is more interested in what happens in boardroom than on the pitch.

 

I know that will annoy some, but that is what I feel.

 

I also accept it is still fairly early days for a new manager - he may get worse or better.

[um pahars]

however you want to play games with words etc .

 

If you want to go around stating,

 

"he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close"

 

only to be shown he was indeed the Assistant First Team Coach/Manager and then get all prissy and call it playing games with words, then you carry on.

 

 

I don't see many supporters having a problem judging him by his results since he has had full control, but it has been quite rightly pointed out that in his role as Assistant First team Coach he should accept his share of responsibility as his contribution was much more than the "minor" one you and others would lead us to believe.

[NickG]

If you want to go around stating,

 

"he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close"

 

only to be shown he was indeed the Assistant First Team Coach/Manager and then get all prissy and call it playing games with words, then you carry on.

 

 

I don't see many supporters having a problem judging him by his results since he has had full control, but it has been quite rightly pointed out that in his role as Assistant First team Coach he should accept his share of responsibility as his contribution was much more than the "minor" one you and others would lead us to believe.

 

Stanley concedes on the other thread that he wants him out partly out of spite due to who appointed him and what happened to NP, unfortunately I think there are many who think like that, worrying too much about personalities in the boardroom rather than football - like our previous discussions on the protests led by anti Wotte banners.

 

At least Stanley - although I think it is a sad way of thinking -is honest.

 

Do you think his influence since being appointed is greater than NPs? -yes or no -no right answer but I would say it is.

[OldNick]

If you want to go around stating,

 

"he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close"

 

only to be shown he was indeed the Assistant First Team Coach/Manager and then get all prissy and call it playing games with words, then you carry on.

 

 

I don't see many supporters having a problem judging him by his results since he has had full control, but it has been quite rightly pointed out that in his role as Assistant First team Coach he should accept his share of responsibility as his contribution was much more than the "minor" one you and others would lead us to believe.

Reading back at your posts and i found this one , it is scary. Strangely enough we are on the same points now after 4 more games.It shows what a hole we are in but alos illustrates to me anyway if Wotte does get us out he has done a marvellous job.

Quote 'When he walked in the door we were 18th. He wasn't really in charge when we slipped lower after immediately losing at Plymouth (down to 20th I think).

 

At that point we had achieved 38 points from 33 games (1.15 per game and sat 20th I think).

 

 

Then when he left we were 20th and managed 16 points from his 13 games (1.23 points per game).

 

 

So during his tenure he stabilised a fall and managed to improve on the points per game haul of the previous 33 games.

 

In the context, a result all round.' End quote.

Edited 13 March, 2009 by OldNick

[um pahars]

Reading back at your posts and i found this one , it is scary. Strangely enough we are on the same points now after 4 more games.It shows what a hole we are in but alos illustrates to me anyway if Wotte does get us out he has done a marvellous job.

Quote 'When he walked in the door we were 18th. He wasn't really in charge when we slipped lower after immediately losing at Plymouth (down to 20th I think).

 

At that point we had achieved 38 points from 33 games (1.15 per game and sat 20th I think).

 

 

Then when he left we were 20th and managed 16 points from his 13 games (1.23 points per game).

 

 

So during his tenure he stabilised a fall and managed to improve on the points per game haul of the previous 33 games.

 

In the context, a result all round.' End quote.

 

And I have consistently said I am more than happy to judge Wotte by his performances, and I said a week or so ago that his current form is mid tableish:

 

He indeed does have a very good point, because the recent mini revivial under Wotte just goes to show what might have been possibe had we gone down the more "traditional" route from the first game of the season, as opposed to some Revolutionary Set Up playing Total Football.

 

Rather than being embroiled in a relegation battle, we could have had many more wins under our belt, dare I say many more bums on seats and then arguably much more wonga coming in, with maybe even the possibility of strengthening the team in the January window to push on even further.

 

A Virtuous circle as opposed to the viscous one under Poortvliet.

If Wotte keeps us up, then arguably our form will have to be akin to mid table stuff (if not higher).

 

1 thing about that post is that if you took out the D&G spell we had gained I think 34 or 35 points out of 29 games and so the points ratio before then was better.

 

But by the same token it would also mean that the points ratio immediately before Pearson took over was abysmal.

 

Ultimatley the Wotte v Pearson argument can never be proven either way due to the variables in play, but just as Pearson could be deemed a success for keeping us up, then I think the same criteria will apply to Wotte.

 

 

But my main beef on this thread was NickG and others airbrushing the role Wotte played in those first 28 games and trying to suggest his role with the first team was minor, when as Assistant First Team Coach I would like that person to be playing a major role in the first team.

[NickG]

all OS articles had him as Academy Director.

[saintjay77]

Wotte: "My role is to assist Jan"

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in"

 

:confused:

 

I said before that it can be read 2 different ways. All of the back room staff are there too assist the man in charge. does that make them all Assistant managers? The English way of doing things is to have a Manager and an Assistant Manager and then the rest. The European way is to have a Head Coach and his Assistants. Collectivly they are all Assistants and they all have there own job to do.

 

Wotte was also explained as the link between the Acadamy and the 1st team. If he was the Assistant manager that so many are trying to suggest dont you think that would be a p|ss poor role to have? 2nd in command and you get to train the kids while Hockaday gets to sit in the dug out each mach. Think the translation of the quotes you posted is different than what is being made out.

[saintjay77]

The introduction to the Q & A's following the AGM on the Official Site is as follows:

 

Following today's AGM for Southampton Leisure Holdings PLC, shareholders were joined by Saints head coach Jan Poortlviet (JP) and Assistant First Team Coach/Academy Director Mark Wotte (MW), who spent an hour answering any footballing questions.........

 

The full transcript is in here and Wotte is all over it answering questions involving first team affairs.

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=11129

 

All who I have spoken to at the Club are clear that Wotte was very much involved in the first team under Poortvliet's stewardship. To suggest otherwise is rewriting history.

 

 

I think thats the 1st and only time I have seen him refered too as that. Almost everwhere else refers to him as the link between the acadamy and the 1st team which is what I based my reasoning on.

 

From the above I think its clear that the club wernt as sure about which way they were heading and what they and the new team wanted. Could just be a mistake and he was introduced wrong and no-one picked it up, but IMO i think the club just didnt actually think through what they were trying to do. Idea sounds good in theory but it needed to be absolutly spot on for it to work and I think we all know it wasnt even close.

[VectisSaint]

Wotte is not gods gift to managment either but he inherited a team in a lot worse state of demotivation than NP did

No, sorry this is just not right and is a reinvention of history. The team that NP inherited were in a shambolic state, following the demotivating spell under Burley (especially when it was known he was off to Jockland, but longer still under his awful training regime after Snodin left) and then D&G, the Bristol Rovers fiasco and so on. I don't actually think the players were really demotivated at all under JP. They were not performing because JP did not know how to get them to perform, but they did not appear to be demotivated, just lacking in ideas and trying to play a ridiculous formation. We, the supporters were demotivated, but Wotte did not inherit a demotivated squad anything like NP did.

 

Thats not being negative about Wotte. I don't like the guy, but concede he has done a reasonably good job so far despite initial misgivings. 10 points from our last 5 games is good form, and that cannot be denied (just a shame all the other teams around us are doing equally well). If Wotte keeps us up he deserves another go next term, just as NP did.