Pearson v Wotte

[aintforever]

Wotte's role was always Academy Director, but I wouldn't read too much into his job title. Remember Woodward was Director of Football and never did anything except blow thousands of pounds on eye gyms and fish tanks.

 

I expect Wotte had a pretty big say behind the scenes, it wouldn't surprise me if he had more say than Jan over personnel. I know he had links to Saeijs and he was brought in under Poortvleit, plus Dean Gorre apears to be his guy and so was he.

[um pahars]

all OS articles had him as Academy Director.

 

Apart from:

 

I think thats the 1st and only time I have seen him refered too as that.

 

"shareholders were joined by Saints head coach Jan Poortlviet (JP) and Assistant First Team Coach/Academy Director Mark Wotte..."

 

"the intention is that the four coaches will mix and match in a seamless structure..."

 

"It is a team of four who will work together and take responsibility for coaching all our players..."

 

"Wotte said 'My role is to assist Jan...'"

 

"He will work closely with Mark Wotte in tandem..."

 

He (Wotte) added: " A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open minded and we will discuss everything and work as a team..."

 

"The new management duo are coming in without any pre-conceived ideas....."

 

"He was brought in on loan by Nigel Pearson who has since been replaced by Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte..."

 

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in"

 

"Dutch coach Wotte is also eager to see how the latest arrival will integrate with the squad's younger members"

I really could go on, but it's rather late................

[Fan The Flames]

Yawn, nice try at the lamest routine in the book.

 

I'm no defender of Lowe and I am not attacking Pearson either and I ripped Lowe to shreds on here when Pearson went and Jan came in.

 

"You're a Lowe luvvie because I don't agree with you" is just pathetic on your part. Grow up.

 

At the end of the day "internal appointments" are riven with problems and just don't work in almost every single case. So sorry, you're wrong.

 

And where am I making out Pearson is "****"? Come on, show me?

 

I just think some of the ludicrous overhype of him is a bit silly and shows the usual lack of perspective on this forum. Most people on here sneer like hell at, say, Micky Adams whose acheivements knock anything Pearson has done into a ****ed hat. Pearson is on the cusp of achieving what Nigel Adkins or Phil Parkinson have achieved in recent years. People need to calm down a bit.

 

I wanted Pearson to stay and was disgusted when he was elbowed by Lowe. Disgusted. If the forum archives go back to last May, look up what I said at the time. He was great for us last season, and was the one man that would have united the fanbase under Lowe, and Lowe blew it.

 

 

 

Doesn't mean I have to buy into the cult of Pearson that has sprung up, it doesn't change the fact that Wotte has a far, far harder job than Pearson had on, and doesn't change the fact that if Wotte keeps us up it will surpass Pearson's achievement by a long, long, way.

 

So try thinking a bit more instead of chucking lame "you love Lowe" rubbish about.

 

 

I fail to see where I called you a love luvvie, if you read the substance of my post you would see that I attempted to counter your premise, but instead you dismissed it under some pretence that I am blinkered, poor debating skills in my opinion.

 

All I know is that every time Pearson is mentioned you trot out his CV in what seems as an attempt to highlight his inadequacies. I’m saying that maybe he is good enough and that the football managerial gravy train hasn’t allowed him his chance to shine, only time will tell.

 

You also claim that internal appointments are inherently problematic whereas it may simply be the case that the internal appointees are just not good enough, but I see you chose to ignore this part of my post.

 

So try reading a bit more before you hide behind "your post is rubbish because you claim that I love Lowe", it's very lame.

[trousers]

all OS articles had him as Academy Director.

 

Incorrect

[Lets B Avenue]

In the apparent absence of Alpine and having just read the entire thread.....

 

Nick G is at his most desperate (the poor pixie) sorry OSM.

[saintjay77]

Apart from:

 

 

 

"shareholders were joined by Saints head coach Jan Poortlviet (JP) and Assistant First Team Coach/Academy Director Mark Wotte..."

 

"the intention is that the four coaches will mix and match in a seamless structure..."

 

"It is a team of four who will work together and take responsibility for coaching all our players..."

 

"Wotte said 'My role is to assist Jan...'"

 

"He will work closely with Mark Wotte in tandem..."

 

He (Wotte) added: " A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open minded and we will discuss everything and work as a team..."

 

"The new management duo are coming in without any pre-conceived ideas....."

 

"He was brought in on loan by Nigel Pearson who has since been replaced by Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte..."

 

Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant.

"I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in"

 

"Dutch coach Wotte is also eager to see how the latest arrival will integrate with the squad's younger members"

I really could go on, but it's rather late................

 

Did you not read my previous posts where I was talking about the Europeen model for management? Head coach and a team of assistants. Wotte being one of them. His role was explained in more detail several times and it was always further towards the acadamy than the 1st team. Most of the quotes you have put above can be taken both ways and as such I am not sure the club were tottaly sure what plan they were actually trying to hatch. The quotes leave more than enough doubt when trying to think of what system they are trying to take on. But due to talking about the Dutch Tottal football, Seemless link between acadamy through to 1st team, Discuss everything and work as a team, pretty much all of the quotes you have said. It does suggest to me that they were at least trying to head down the European thinking and as such Wotte might not have been considered as the Assistant Manager from within the club. Where was he on match days? I cant remember seeing him on the touchline where you would expect to find the 1st team coach/Assistant manager? I thought Hocaday was there with JP?

 

Not trying to defend him as he obviously had a part to play in the 1st 2/3's of the season but IMO some of us are looking at the system like it is the English Manager and Assistant manager when it could well be the Head coach and his team of assistants all with various jobs to do.

Edited 14 March, 2009 by saintjay77

[um pahars]

Did you not read my previous posts where I was talking about the Europeen model for management? Head coach and a team of assistants. Wotte being one of them. His role was explained in more detail several times and it was always further towards the acadamy than the 1st team.

 

I did, and my reply was also aimed at NickG who is intimating that Wotte was solely Academy Director and his involvement with the first team was minor (and that he did not have the title of Assistant First Team Coach).

 

Whilst Poortvliet had the final say on first team affairs (well most parts of it), there can be no doubt that Wotte (& others BTW) played an integral part in assisiting and advising Poortvliet in first team matters.

 

Of course he had other duties, hence the dual role, but if you had ever gone down to Staplewood then you would have seen first hand his involvement with the first team. It certainly wasn't minor.

 

Even though Henderson & Hockaday also had the titles of Assistant First Team Coach / First Team Assistant Coach, Wotte was always the more prominent of the three and was de facto assistant to Poortvliet as outlined in many articles and demonstrated by how he was often wheeled out by the Club/OS for first team affairs (commenting pre and prior matches, signing players, speaking at the post AGM Q & A's etc etc etc). That certainly wasn't minor.

 

My reply to you was more to do with how Wotte was titled (as you said you had never seen him referred to as Assistant First Team Coach), but he had always been Academy Director/Assistant First team Coach. If you look at the OS I'm sure it has Henderson down as Youth Team Coach/First Team Assistant Coach.

[Ponty]

I can't even begin to describe how unimportant the semantics of this argument are to me. The only thing that matters is staying up - Pearson managed it last year and if Wotte manages it this year then they both should be remembered with gratitude IMO. What is best for next year (CCC or Div1) is another thing altogether.

[um pahars]

I can't even begin to describe how unimportant the semantics of this argument are to me.

 

Normally, when I see a thread or a line of debate or argument that is unimportant or irrelevant to me, then I just scroll on down or ignore it.

 

Always find it funny how people have to tell us what they find unimportant by posting on the very thread they find unimportant;)

 

The only thing that matters is staying up - Pearson managed it last year and if Wotte manages it this year then they both should be remembered with gratitude IMO.

 

Now we have a worthwhile contribution;).

 

I totally agree. If Wotte keeps us up he would have performed extremely well and turned around something many would have thought impossible (or at least very dificult to achieve). Then it would be take stock in the summer and make the right decision going forward, as we cannopt afford to repeat the mistakes of last summer.

[Ponty]

It's the semantics I find unimportant UP, there will only be a winner of the argument (Pearson) if Wotte fails to keep us up this year.

[Weston Super Saint]

It's the semantics I find unimportant UP, there will only be a winner of the argument (Pearson) if Wotte fails to keep us up this year.

 

Oh come now Ponty, you've been around long enough to know there will NEVER, EVER be just ONE winner

[NickG]

I did, and my reply was also aimed at NickG who is intimating that Wotte was solely Academy Director and his involvement with the first team was minor (and that he did not have the title of Assistant First Team Coach).

 

Whilst Poortvliet had the final say on first team affairs (well most parts of it), there can be no doubt that Wotte (& others BTW) played an integral part in assisiting and advising Poortvliet in first team matters.

 

Of course he had other duties, hence the dual role, but if you had ever gone down to Staplewood then you would have seen first hand his involvement with the first team. It certainly wasn't minor.

 

Even though Henderson & Hockaday also had the titles of Assistant First Team Coach / First Team Assistant Coach, Wotte was always the more prominent of the three and was de facto assistant to Poortvliet as outlined in many articles and demonstrated by how he was often wheeled out by the Club/OS for first team affairs (commenting pre and prior matches, signing players, speaking at the post AGM Q & A's etc etc etc). That certainly wasn't minor.

 

My reply to you was more to do with how Wotte was titled (as you said you had never seen him referred to as Assistant First Team Coach), but he had always been Academy Director/Assistant First team Coach. If you look at the OS I'm sure it has Henderson down as Youth Team Coach/First Team Assistant Coach.

 

I had always seen him given the accademy title and thought that was the only one used. The bold bit is not what I am saying -as said above a few times we don't know how much he was involved - but for actually influence/decision making/team talks etc I would still guess it was minor based on what I saw on match days, the change since, comments made by players etc.

 

I agree with other interpretation that assisting is quite different from joint -which is the sort of role you seem to be saying.

 

UP - think I asked before, do you think the impact is better than NPs so far?

[NickG]

It's the semantics I find unimportant UP, there will only be a winner of the argument (Pearson) if Wotte fails to keep us up this year.

 

but who had the harder task?

[ottery st mary]

When I saw that tv clip of Wotte and JP touring the battlements of Southampton and all the hype, I thought they looked like the perfect couple. A definite marriage of convenience where sex would be non existent after the honeymoon period.

Originally Mr and Mrs with the titles now changed as both are now Ms.

[saintjay77]

I did, and my reply was also aimed at NickG who is intimating that Wotte was solely Academy Director and his involvement with the first team was minor (and that he did not have the title of Assistant First Team Coach).

 

Whilst Poortvliet had the final say on first team affairs (well most parts of it), there can be no doubt that Wotte (& others BTW) played an integral part in assisiting and advising Poortvliet in first team matters.

 

Of course he had other duties, hence the dual role, but if you had ever gone down to Staplewood then you would have seen first hand his involvement with the first team. It certainly wasn't minor.

 

Even though Henderson & Hockaday also had the titles of Assistant First Team Coach / First Team Assistant Coach, Wotte was always the more prominent of the three and was de facto assistant to Poortvliet as outlined in many articles and demonstrated by how he was often wheeled out by the Club/OS for first team affairs (commenting pre and prior matches, signing players, speaking at the post AGM Q & A's etc etc etc). That certainly wasn't minor.

 

My reply to you was more to do with how Wotte was titled (as you said you had never seen him referred to as Assistant First Team Coach), but he had always been Academy Director/Assistant First team Coach. If you look at the OS I'm sure it has Henderson down as Youth Team Coach/First Team Assistant Coach.

 

Fairy muff. I honestly hadnt seen him get that tittle before you posted it. I might have read it but not realy noticed it. Most of what I had seen was more towards the other roles that have been mentioned and I hadnt really given that much to them either. we may be splitting hairs a little too finley which is why every little word gets scrutinised so much.

 

Like Ponty said the only thing that matters is if we survive. If we were winning the battle against relegation im sure most of us wouldnt give a toss about a job title

[Fitzhugh Fella]

So, are the statistics still showing Wotte in a positive light?

 

Today's game was absolutely dire and "Wotte the Statistical Mesiah" is perhaps not as good as some would have us believe.

[Mole]

So, are the statistics still showing Wotte in a positive light?

 

Today's game was absolutely dire and "Wotte the Statistical Mesiah" is perhaps not as good as some would have us believe.

 

Wotte is merely continuing his mediocre managerial record.

[SaintRobbie]

I will tell you all the difference between Wotte and Pearson. It is not that Wotte has a better tally over his first few games in charge (& ignoring the FACT that he has actually been in charge of football since last August). The difference is:

 

Pearson = optimism, hope, his own man, grit and fight.

 

Wotte = a slightly more orange Lowe with nicer hair.

[trousers]

If if Wotte 'undertakes' Pearson in the 'stats race' between now and the end of the season, I'll still stand by my verdict that we can't compare the two on a like-for-like basis.

 

Trousers stands up for Wotte (sort of).....

 

Now That's What I Call Balance 74

[Fitzhugh Fella]

If if Wotte 'undertakes' Pearson in the 'stats race' between now and the end of the season, I'll still stand by my verdict that we can't compare the two on a like-for-like basis.

 

Trousers stands up for Wotte (sort of).....

 

Now That's What I Call Balance 74

 

Fair point and lets face it the comparison should never have been floated in the first place.

[saintjay77]

Fair point and lets face it the comparison should never have been floated in the first place.

 

thing is it always was going to be considering the similarities. Him and Pearson took over when we were utter shyte and both will be judged on survival and not allot else.

 

Another glaring reason is because it seems the only people that thought Pearson didnt deserve a full season was the board so therefor any decission they had made would have been scrutinized by us all.

[ottery st mary]

The difference with the two are quite clear. Pearson is a football man and knows what he is doing. Wottey is from the same school as Rupert and JP..No idea.

Wottey here next season with Rupert more of the same and relegation to Division 4.

 

Pearson retained and we would be on the way back to Prem.

 

Wottey has no idea and is still directed by Rupes and his Ra Ra Girls.

[SaintRobbie]

The difference with the two are quite clear. Pearson is a football man and knows what he is doing. Wottey is from the same school as Rupert and JP..No idea.

Wottey here next season with Rupert more of the same and relegation to Division 4.

 

Pearson retained and we would be on the way back to Prem.

 

Wottey has no idea and is still directed by Rupes and his Ra Ra Girls.

 

Not sure NP would have taken us back to the Premiership, but he'd have kept us in the CCC and allowed us to find a buyer who might have allowed that.

 

Apart from that - most astute post of the day.