Humble Pie is being defrosted

[SP Saint]

He's a closet wolves fan too.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=7228

 

Yes that has to be him too. :smt048

[trousers]

Did JFP actually ‘imply’ Woote had no input whatsoever in first team affairs? I don’t think he did.

 

My perception was that there was an implication, but I wasn't 100% certain, hence the question mark. Happy to stand corrected.

 

You develop this fabrication further and ‘for balance’ suggest there could only be two possible options which basically give us the choice of between ‘it’s virtually all Woote’s fault anyway’ or ‘he had nowt to do with it so must have been just standing by and watching as we went down the pan.’

 

I'm simply struggling to reconcile the original internal and external press coverage that quite clearly reported JP and MW were 'working as a seamless team' compared with the picture that is now being painted by some...i.e. that JP and MW weren't working very closely together on tactics etc afterall. But, fair cop, you've spotted I'm being somewhat provocative to try and smoke out the truth. Again, happy to be proven wrong in the process. It's a means to an end.

 

Can you point me to the ‘balance’ in your post as neither of the above are really options as both conveniently work to make him look bad? Woote was not the manager and any concerns or advice he had about systems or players roles could easily have been ignored or only partially endorsed. Maybe Jan listened and respected his views but ultimately disagreed – the reality is quite likely to be far more complicated than the simple ‘black and white’ options we dream up on this forum.

 

Fair observation. Jan's only post-departure interview (with Setanta) would tend to back up this theory (unlike the OS view of their working relationship of course). Although I am intrigued as to why his broadside wasn't picked up other media outlets given the damning nature of what he said, but anyway.

 

But certainly once Jan left Woote would have had far more flexibility in expressing his ideas directly to the players. It’s quite possible Woote is better at man management so is better equipped to first hand deal with the players on a more personal basis than Jan could. Maybe he is better at developing structure in the team and defining the exact roles of each player.

 

Completely agree. Which brings me back to my often repeated, never answered $64,000 dollar question...Who introduced Lowe to Poortvliet in the first place and convinced him he was as good as Wotte?

 

We can speculate all day long but Woote's role now is far more than just a name change so such musings are rather pointless.

I'll have to bow to your inside knowledge on that one as I've no way of knowing for sure how close Wotte was to the first team and/or what influence he had on a day-to-day basis (other than the club saying that they would be working closely together from the outset....)

 

It’s what he is doing now that matters and both results and performances are speaking for themselves.

 

Long may it continue that way.

Yep, I'll raise a glass to that.

 

p.s. it's Wotte, not Woote, by the way...

Edited 5 March, 2009 by trousers

[Pedro]

Come on Northam, give him a chant, I've missed having a manager wave in response, would give everyone an extra lift especially as the attendances are rising. As long as the team don't **** it up again in front of a big crowd.

[trousers]

Below is the first Wotte OS article just after he joined. This is what I mean when I say that I believe Wotte was a lot closer to influencing our first team strategy and performances during the first 28 games of the season than some others believe or suggest. There are several articles around this time that emphasise this.

 

I know I'm guilty of dwelling on the (relatively recent) past here but, equally, we shouldn't be sweeping the whys and wherefores of this season's poor performances under the carpet either.

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/search/?mode=movenav&page_id=10174

Mark Wotte is delighted to have made it to St Mary's two and a half years late!

 

The Dutch coach was strongly tipped to succeed Harry Redknapp in December 2005 with the media presenting it as a done deal.

But a sudden change of heart saw Saints opt for George Burley at the last minute.

 

But now Wotte has been appointed as academy director working alongside Head Coach Jan Poortvliet, Reserve team boss Stewart Henderson and Under 18's coach Dave Hockaday.

 

Wotte explained: "I was offered the job two and a half years ago and I was surprised I was not appointed but Rupert Lowe had a very good explanation.

"It was a very difficult time for the club and it might have been too risky then. George Burley got the job - these things happen.

 

"I kept in contact with Rupert Lowe by email and phone, even after he left the club. I like his ideas.

"His not conservative but willing to do something else? He appointed Sir Clive Woodward - and I don't disagree with him because Clive has a lot of qualities which can help any professional club."

 

When the call came a second time, Wotte had no hesitation in accepting the role alongside is fellow countryman.

 

Although the pair have not worked together before, they share the same footballing philosophy and a strong belief in a passionate, attacking game founded on talented young players.

 

He added: "A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open-minded and we will discuss everything and work as a team with Stewart and Dave.

 

"It is a very exciting challenge and one we are all looking forward to. this is a great club and now we need to get it back to the Premier League."

Edited 5 March, 2009 by trousers

[Nineteen Canteen]

Just please don't tell us that this was a strategic plan B, as we all know that it was more by luck than judgement on Rupert's part !

FWIW I am delighted that MW has made a great start and has given us renewed hope.

Long may it continue and if anyone chants his name I'll be happy to join in, no probs !!!

 

This wasn't strategic plan B.......no just basic succession planning, someone must have a MBA on the board.

[trousers]

This wasn't strategic plan B.......no just basic succession planning, someone must have a MBA on the board.

 

What does this succession plan now say about our next manager?

[stinhk]

If he keeps us up he'll be a sucess, if we go down he'll be failure.

 

We've had 3 good results BUT the teams around us have all been winning too. I've no complaints from the last 3 games and hope the good form continues.

 

Would relegation necessarily mean MW is a failure?

 

Clearly things have improved under him. Let's say the standards are maintained for the remainder of the season but other things conspire to see us finish in the bottom three, e.g. other teams results don't go in our favour, injuries, obscure refereeing decisions, bad luck (if there is such a thing), any number of things.

 

In that case it could be argued that he was left with too much ground to make up? Anyway, lets hope we won't need to have that debate over the summer.

[Frank's cousin]

I think some of sometimes forget who we actually are and the size of club we are... as if it should be easy and straight forward selecting a manager irrespective our finace problems. I believe we went down the youth route for two reasons - Finance (although I suspect Lowe took that element to the extreme, eg the costs for schneiderlin could have kept us one or two of the more experienced pros rather than loaning them out) and the second his philosophy.

 

When in the prem doing well under Strachan, I think the fact that WGS left because h had taken us as far as he felt he could without substantial investment of the 15 mil a year + mark, would have ****ed lowe off no end. The fact that for a club of our size we struggled to attract better players because of wages restrictions (to avoid adding to debt) and the difficulty in holding onto players such as Bridge the moment a big club came calling again primarily due to wages saw Lowe looking at other approaches - rightly or wrongly. The first was his look at the Dutch set at Ajax, with continuity of youth players comming through more regularly and seemlessly taking teh place of those that had been sold to bigger clubs - I am sure Lowe liked the idea of the revenue stream this potentially created as well - but if the players were going to ;leave anyway as soon as someone came sniffing, then why not cash in if you have a ready made replacement?

 

The second aspect was the SCW thing. I know he was slated and laughed at here. But I believe the premise was based on logic - bring someone in with fresh insights or different approaches to up the ante on Sports science and try and squeeze every advantage out of these to give us an edge over similar sized clubs etc... eg. If we cant compete financially, why not try getting an advantage through improved standards of fitness, sports science and psychology? NOt a stupid idea, if perhaps a naive one given the dangers if there is even the slightest slip up.

 

Lastly we again come to the manager, and perhaps the weakest aspect to Lowe's philosophy. Lowe was mightily ****ed off when Hoddle decamped - his 'north London Yobbos' comment probably being the least of the expletives he probably used in private.

 

So what does he do, the managers job wa becoming like the drummers in Spinal Tap - was there a way of changing the system to make this less relevent? I think his idea was to dilute the role, have a coaching TEAM similar to that of SCW with teh England Rugby squad, a manager who managed less of the side, but a team of specialists in each area, thus becoming less susceptible if one of them leaves for whatever reason.

 

This is only speculation, but it would explain a few things as to why we perceive Lowe as 'clueless' in the traditional football sense because the commentators and fans alike predicted in waves it would not work, was not appropriate for the premiership or in getting senior pros to respect it and respond to it.

 

So does Lowe abandon the plan? NO... but he sees that if he wants to implement this he has to start with..... the youth and get them into the system.

 

It was not helped by relegation either. Instead of abandoning it totally, he probably felt 'arry would have enough to get us to bounce straight back and in teh meantime SCW could get on with implementing the new system beginning with teh youth and reserves... Andrew Surman stated at te time that teh academy and younger players saw real benefits to the vision coaches and greater use and analyse of prozone etc.. but its likely that 'arry, the fans and the media all ridiculing the approach saw the senoir players cool to this as well. The confusion in direction and problems this would ahve given 'arry were clear to see and so again it was abandoned... Lowe puts it back on the shelf to wait until the time is right... Brings ion Burley who has achieved good things with Hearts. Then of course he is ousted in the boardroom shuffle.

 

Skip forward to the return and waht do we see? Pearson is the innocent victim of LOwe's desire to finally implement parts of his strategy - he believes the time is right, we are skint so it provides a good reason to use the kids who are cheap, and has teh belief that the acaemy boys have teh potential to play that passing game and achieve success, even if it takes a couple of seasons... brings in the Dutch Duo and away we go.. the football quality is good, its entertaining and surely it will only be a matter of time before the results reflect this approach and he wins over the sceptics?

 

As we now know, it failed. And yes there are those who say honestly they predicted it would - and probably teh odds were stacked against it working with such young and inexperienced players. But that did not mean it was guarranteed to fail.

 

We are still playing good football, passing the ball quickly and playing an entertaining style, probably not that far removed from what we started the season doing, albeit with a more traditional and importantly with the added experience, so I dont actually believe Wotte has changed a great deal in the philosophy, just been fortunate enough to be able to utilise greater experience - players whose use naturally dictates the formation being used and its a huge improvement.

 

This post is bound to be seen by some as some sort of apology or support of Lowe. Whatever, not bothered by that tag any more. But its really just my musings on why I suspect/believe Lowe has gone about it in this way. And yes I can see the logic in it, yes I can even honestly say I like the concept of it. BUT I can also as everyone else can see that if the points dont add up, its failing and irrespective of what is causing that it needs to be reviewed.

 

Ironically, as mentioned, I dont actually think Wotte is doing much different to what was being done before, just more experience, and a better more cohesive attitude and passion means we are finally getting the results the style and approach deserves. Will it be enough over the next 10 games? hopefully yes, but its going to be tight. As for next year? who knows what strange and wierd things will happen over the summer....

[trousers]

Would relegation necessarily mean MW is a failure?

 

Clearly things have improved under him. Let's say the standards are maintained for the remainder of the season but other things conspire to see us finish in the bottom three, e.g. other teams results don't go in our favour, injuries, obscure refereeing decisions, bad luck (if there is such a thing), any number of things.

 

In that case it could be argued that he was left with too much ground to make up? Anyway, lets hope we won't need to have that debate over the summer.

 

Dodgy analogy alert...

 

You contact a building firm to build you an extension. The building firm assigns you a project manager and a builder to complete the work.

 

The project manager and builder both sit down with you to talk through the plans and convince you to try out a new revolutionary mortar that they are both very enthusiastic about. You agree, but with reservations as this type of mortar has only ever been proven to work on windmills before.

 

The project manager leaves the builder to complete the work and you are happy with the finished extension, as it looks really good from the outside.

 

However, over several weeks you start to see cracks appearing in the mortar. You repeatedly contact the builder who reassures you that the problems are superficial.

 

After many weeks the extension shows signs of collapse. So, you give the building firm an ultimatum and, thus, they sack the builder and get the original project manager to come in and fix the problem for you. He looks at the mortar and says "hmmm, not sure that was the right thing to do in the first place, guvnor". We'll need to change that for you.

 

So, he drills out 50% of the new revolutionary mortar and back-fills it with some good old fashioned mortar.

 

You wait a few more weeks to see if this has done the trick and yes, it looks like the problem was resolved in the nick of time.

 

Do you....

 

(a) congratulate the building firm and the project manager for his excellent patch up work and thank him for saving your extension from collapse

 

or

 

(b) acknowledge that they got it right in the end but insist on an explanation as to why the project manager went with the hair brained revolutionary mortar in the first place.

 

:confused:

Edited 6 March, 2009 by trousers

[Frank's cousin]

Dodgy analogy alert...

 

You contact a building firm to build you an extension. The building firm assigns you a project manager and a builder to complete the work.

 

The project manager and builder both sit down with you to talk through the plans and convince you to try out a new revolutionary mortar that they are both very enthusiastic about. You agree, but with reservations as this type of mortar has only ever been proven to work on windmills before.

 

The project manager leaves the builder to complete the work and you are happy with the finished extension, as it looks really good from the outside.

 

However, over several weeks you start to see cracks appearing in the mortar. You repeatedly contact the builder who reassures you that the problems are superficial.

 

After many weeks the extension shows signs of collapse. So, you give the building firm an ultimatum and, thus, they sack the builder and get the original project manager to come in and fix the problem for you. He looks at the mortar and says "hmmm, not sure that was the right thing to do in the first place, guvnor". We'll need to change that for you.

 

So, he drills out 50% of the new revolutionary mortar and back-fills it with some good old fashioned mortar.

 

You wait a few more weeks to see if this has done the trick and yes, it looks like the problem was resolved in the nick of time.

 

Do you....

 

(a) congratulate the building firm and the project manager for his excellent patch up work and thank him for saving your extension from collapse

 

or

 

(b) acknowledge that they got it right in the end but insist on an explanation as to why the project manager went with the hair brained revolutionary mortar in the first place.

 

:confused:

 

Quite and amusing analogy! ;-) and quite a good one really. Perhaps what is missing though is that the building firm may have said at the outset that not only were they going to use the revolutionary mortar because it was cheaper and thus within budget, but that they though it had other advantages, although unproven, could potentially last longer, etc?

 

Explantation? the problem is we will only ever get what either they think we want to hear, or the otherside ppresenting opinion as fact to stick the boot in, probably never a truthful picture will emerge - but I would hazzard a guess, that we have not actually changed a great deal, just added more old sand to the mix....

[JohnnyFartPants]

Dodgy analogy alert...

 

You contact a building firm to build you an extension. The building firm assigns you a project manager and a builder to complete the work.

 

The project manager and builder both sit down with you to talk through the plans and convince you to try out a new revolutionary mortar that they are both very enthusiastic about. You agree, but with reservations as this type of mortar has only ever been proven to work on windmills before.

 

The project manager leaves the builder to complete the work and you are happy with the finished extension, as it looks really good from the outside.

 

However, over several weeks you start to see cracks appearing in the mortar. You repeatedly contact the builder who reassures you that the problems are superficial.

 

After many weeks the extension shows signs of collapse. So, you give the building firm an ultimatum and, thus, they sack the builder and get the original project manager to come in and fix the problem for you. He looks at the mortar and says "hmmm, not sure that was the right thing to do in the first place, guvnor". We'll need to change that for you.

 

So, he drills out 50% of the new revolutionary mortar and back-fills it with some good old fashioned mortar.

 

You wait a few more weeks to see if this has done the trick and yes, it looks like the problem was resolved in the nick of time.

 

Do you....

 

(a) congratulate the building firm and the project manager for his excellent patch up work and thank him for saving your extension from collapse

 

or

 

(b) acknowledge that they got it right in the end but insist on an explanation as to why the project manager went with the hair brained revolutionary mortar in the first place.

 

:confused:

 

I suppose given that it was your extension then you are entitled to answers, as you own the house and have paid for work to be done on it. If you suggested he build an extension on his own house and he did a pigs ear of a job on it then this would be even closer an analogy. Further, if it wasn't a house, but say a Stately Home with lovely gardens to wander around which previously you paid to visit, you could decide to no longer visit until you liked it how it was. If he wished to try different things in his garden then that is up to him. As regards demanding answers to why he did certain things to his own building, no, you are not entitled if you want the legal truth.

[GreenTreeFrog]

 

You said:

 

I'm simply struggling to reconcile the original internal and external press coverage that quite clearly reported JP and MW were 'working as a seamless team' compared with the picture that is now being painted by some...

 

I am happy to say I can elucidate matters here, trousers. I expect this is the comment where ‘seamless link’ was mentioned and it is a bit different from your reading of it.

 

'Current Reserve team coach Stewart Henderson and under 18's coach Dave Hockaday will work closely with the Dutch duo aiming to create a seamless link between the Academy and the first-team. Southampton FC chairman Michael Wilde explained: "Training together will allow a great link between the academy and the first team so if players are good enough they will have a structure whereby they will be recognised and brought on'.

From OS article - 'meet the new men'.

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10168

 

So the ‘seamless link’ you mention was not between Jan and Wotte but between the academy and the first team. Lower down that article you can read the comment "Mark has extensive experience of organising academy structures and is a pro licence coach in his own right”.

 

In another OS article was this short description:

 

'Mark Wotte will provide the link between the first team and the Club's young talent in his new role as Academy director'.

 

So his main role appeared to be academy development and we can only speculate how much influence he had in first team matters.

 

You said:

 

Completely agree. Which brings me back to my often repeated, never answered $64,000 dollar question...Who introduced Lowe to Poortvliet in the first place and convinced him he was as good as Wotte?

 

Who knows but again I would ask what is the point of trying to ‘smoke out’ issues that are clouded by a mixture of conjecture, assumptions and hindsight? We might argue whoever it was made a huge mistake and that is not a ridiculous stance to take, yet equally it could be argued ‘for balance’ that maybe it was the right decision but other circumstances meant it just didn’t work out in this particular instance. We did have many injuries and suspensions early on and the average team age dropped from 23 to 20 at one stage, but I think it’s important to realise that was not through choice. Jan had little alternative but to field players not ready for first team action. It can be put down to finance and/or the current policy of the board but it was not Jans preferred choice to field those players. You don’t need ‘inside knowledge’ to know that. So I doubt Jan needed Wotte, or anyone else, advising him he ‘would be better off playing more experienced players’.

 

Jan was delighted to have Saga available for selection and publically stated he would score goals and get us moving up the table. He pointed to his experience as a striker and how important that was. Who can say how Jan would have done if Saga and Saeijs (a 30 year old brought in by Jan) had been available to him earlier? It’s all speculation so the person that recommended him initially could still be right even though it did not work out that way.

 

I am not defending Jan here, he has gone and ultimately it was inevitable considering the results. Wotte has done much better all round and that is all that matters to me. How Jan would have done with the same team is pure speculation

 

You said:

 

I'll have to bow to your inside knowledge on that one as I've no way of knowing for sure how close Wotte was to the first team and/or what influence he had on a day-to-day basis (other than the club saying that they would be working closely together from the outset....)

 

He was not the manager before he is now. No inside knowledge needed is simply a matter of fact. Also, if Wotte was running the team previously, it's difficult to see how results and performances could improve so significantly if things are much the same. If it is only down to the addition of Saga and Saeijs then maybe we are being unfair on Jan.

 

You said:

 

p.s. it's Wotte, not Woote, by the way...

 

You would think I would spell his name right seeing as I appointed him - at least according to yourself and Stanley that is

 

Burley was a good managerial choice that did not work out for us; Strachan was a poor choice [sacked by Coventry, unwanted by many saints fans including me] yet turned out to be excellent for us. It happens all the time in football and virutally all managers have success and failure unless they stay well within the comfort zone of low expectation. For example, Billy Davies was very successful for championship Derby as he got them promoted within the first year when the board had agreed it would take 3 years to acheive that aim. If Davies had not been so successful and taken the 3 years of steady progress he would likely still be at Derby, still be a hero, and still have his reputation intact. So you can be sacked for being too successful as well as failing.

 

We all hope Wotte is the right man for saints so why spend so much energy on trying to destroy his reputation or blame him for something he did not have full control over.

Edited 6 March, 2009 by GreenTreeFrog

[trousers]

Fair play GreenTreeFrog. I'll step down from my provocative podium for now

 

Agree we should all get behind the team and manager from here on in.

 

I'm actually warming to Wotte and believe he could become a bit of a legend in due course....funnier things have happened....

 

COYR!!!

[Victor]

Well, I'm certainly not going to eat humble pie. Wotte is just doing what I and many on this board felt should have been done from the start of the season. And I was quite right in having misgivings when he took over from JP, after all, he was half of the original comedy duo. He's the one who appears to have done an about-turn and who should eat humble pie.

 

Him or Rupert.

[um pahars]

I think some of sometimes forget who we actually are and the size of club we are... as if it should be easy and straight forward selecting a manager irrespective our finace problems. I believe we went down the youth route for two reasons - Finance (although I suspect Lowe took that element to the extreme, eg the costs for schneiderlin could have kept us one or two of the more experienced pros rather than loaning them out) and the second his philosophy.

 

When in the prem doing well under Strachan, I think the fact that WGS left because h had taken us as far as he felt he could without substantial investment of the 15 mil a year + mark, would have ****ed lowe off no end. The fact that for a club of our size we struggled to attract better players because of wages restrictions (to avoid adding to debt) and the difficulty in holding onto players such as Bridge the moment a big club came calling again primarily due to wages saw Lowe looking at other approaches - rightly or wrongly. The first was his look at the Dutch set at Ajax, with continuity of youth players comming through more regularly and seemlessly taking teh place of those that had been sold to bigger clubs - I am sure Lowe liked the idea of the revenue stream this potentially created as well - but if the players were going to ;leave anyway as soon as someone came sniffing, then why not cash in if you have a ready made replacement?

 

The second aspect was the SCW thing. I know he was slated and laughed at here. But I believe the premise was based on logic - bring someone in with fresh insights or different approaches to up the ante on Sports science and try and squeeze every advantage out of these to give us an edge over similar sized clubs etc... eg. If we cant compete financially, why not try getting an advantage through improved standards of fitness, sports science and psychology? NOt a stupid idea, if perhaps a naive one given the dangers if there is even the slightest slip up.

 

Lastly we again come to the manager, and perhaps the weakest aspect to Lowe's philosophy. Lowe was mightily ****ed off when Hoddle decamped - his 'north London Yobbos' comment probably being the least of the expletives he probably used in private.

 

So what does he do, the managers job wa becoming like the drummers in Spinal Tap - was there a way of changing the system to make this less relevent? I think his idea was to dilute the role, have a coaching TEAM similar to that of SCW with teh England Rugby squad, a manager who managed less of the side, but a team of specialists in each area, thus becoming less susceptible if one of them leaves for whatever reason.

 

This is only speculation, but it would explain a few things as to why we perceive Lowe as 'clueless' in the traditional football sense because the commentators and fans alike predicted in waves it would not work, was not appropriate for the premiership or in getting senior pros to respect it and respond to it.

 

So does Lowe abandon the plan? NO... but he sees that if he wants to implement this he has to start with..... the youth and get them into the system.

 

It was not helped by relegation either. Instead of abandoning it totally, he probably felt 'arry would have enough to get us to bounce straight back and in teh meantime SCW could get on with implementing the new system beginning with teh youth and reserves... Andrew Surman stated at te time that teh academy and younger players saw real benefits to the vision coaches and greater use and analyse of prozone etc.. but its likely that 'arry, the fans and the media all ridiculing the approach saw the senoir players cool to this as well. The confusion in direction and problems this would ahve given 'arry were clear to see and so again it was abandoned... Lowe puts it back on the shelf to wait until the time is right... Brings ion Burley who has achieved good things with Hearts. Then of course he is ousted in the boardroom shuffle.

 

Skip forward to the return and waht do we see? Pearson is the innocent victim of LOwe's desire to finally implement parts of his strategy - he believes the time is right, we are skint so it provides a good reason to use the kids who are cheap, and has teh belief that the acaemy boys have teh potential to play that passing game and achieve success, even if it takes a couple of seasons... brings in the Dutch Duo and away we go.. the football quality is good, its entertaining and surely it will only be a matter of time before the results reflect this approach and he wins over the sceptics?

 

As we now know, it failed. And yes there are those who say honestly they predicted it would - and probably teh odds were stacked against it working with such young and inexperienced players. But that did not mean it was guarranteed to fail.

 

We are still playing good football, passing the ball quickly and playing an entertaining style, probably not that far removed from what we started the season doing, albeit with a more traditional and importantly with the added experience, so I dont actually believe Wotte has changed a great deal in the philosophy, just been fortunate enough to be able to utilise greater experience - players whose use naturally dictates the formation being used and its a huge improvement.

 

This post is bound to be seen by some as some sort of apology or support of Lowe. Whatever, not bothered by that tag any more. But its really just my musings on why I suspect/believe Lowe has gone about it in this way. And yes I can see the logic in it, yes I can even honestly say I like the concept of it. BUT I can also as everyone else can see that if the points dont add up, its failing and irrespective of what is causing that it needs to be reviewed.

 

Ironically, as mentioned, I dont actually think Wotte is doing much different to what was being done before, just more experience, and a better more cohesive attitude and passion means we are finally getting the results the style and approach deserves. Will it be enough over the next 10 games? hopefully yes, but its going to be tight. As for next year? who knows what strange and wierd things will happen over the summer....

 

Quite a bit of waffle before and after the most relevant point in there.

 

 

 

And as for the bit where you think Wotte isn't doing much different than what was doing before LMFAO.

 

Have you seen the line up, the tactics, the way we play, the results, the priorities???

 

Are you aware of the differences in training, the preparation, the motivation etc etc etc???

 

And have you read the various interviews where it is clearly outlined that we have ditched the total football philosophy and the reliance on youth in order to get out of this hole???

 

If he isn't doing much different than what was being done before, then how would explain the sea change in results, performances and atmosphere???

 

Wotte deserves full credit for undertaking a U turn and getting results from a much more traditional approach, and your suggestion that he hasn't done much does him a great disservice. But then of course to admit that would just highlight how appalling we were before under the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up and Total Football that Lowe oversaw.

[Frank's cousin]

Quite a bit of waffle before and after the most relevant point in there.

 

 

 

And as for the bit where you think Wotte isn't doing much different than what was doing before LMFAO.

 

Have you seen the line up, the tactics, the way we play, the results, the priorities???

 

Are you aware of the differences in training, the preparation, the motivation etc etc etc???

 

And have you read the various interviews where it is clearly outlined that we have ditched the total football philosophy and the reliance on youth in order to get out of this hole???

 

If he isn't doing much different than what was being done before, then how would explain the sea change in results, performances and atmosphere???

 

Wotte deserves full credit for undertaking a U turn and getting results from a much more traditional approach, and your suggestion that he hasn't done much does him a great disservice. But then of course to admit that would just highlight how appalling we were before under the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up and Total Football that Lowe oversaw.

 

Whatever, UP... turning that post into your 'diservice of wotte' is typical... I used to enjoy watching out and reading your responses, but now they are like a stuck record, you repeat the same stuff whatever is actually posted or whatever is actually said - no skin off my nose if you dont read the waffle, but please at least respond in context, surely thats not beyond someone of your wisdom and insight???

[John B]

Surely the only things that have happened this year

 

1 SVENSSON will not play again and has been replaced by JPS

 

2 Saga probably our best player is now available and because of that and Euell being fully fit the tactics have changed to a more realistic system which is more appropriate to the Championship and Wotte is a strong manager.

 

3 We have had more luck or rub of the green.

 

 

The major point of the emphasis on the Academy surely is still in tact

Edited 6 March, 2009 by John B

[Mole]

Please can people not quote Franks Cousins posts. Thanks.

[um pahars]

Whatever' date=' UP... turning that post into your 'diservice of wotte' is typical... [/quote']

 

Typical of the truth maybe.

 

Wotte, to his credit has come in and fundamentally changed much on the playing side from training to preparation to team choices to tactics to line up et al.

 

To suggest he has not doing much different is spectacularly ignoring all the evidence in recent games (not least to say points on the board).

 

If he isn't doing that much different, then how come we now have the form of a play off chasing team (1.57 pts per game), when before we had the form of relegation candidates????

[trousers]

Please can people not quote Franks Cousins posts. Thanks.

 

What, this one...?

 

 

 

I think some of sometimes forget who we actually are and the size of club we are... as if it should be easy and straight forward selecting a manager irrespective our finace problems. I believe we went down the youth route for two reasons - Finance (although I suspect Lowe took that element to the extreme, eg the costs for schneiderlin could have kept us one or two of the more experienced pros rather than loaning them out) and the second his philosophy.

 

When in the prem doing well under Strachan, I think the fact that WGS left because h had taken us as far as he felt he could without substantial investment of the 15 mil a year + mark, would have ****ed lowe off no end. The fact that for a club of our size we struggled to attract better players because of wages restrictions (to avoid adding to debt) and the difficulty in holding onto players such as Bridge the moment a big club came calling again primarily due to wages saw Lowe looking at other approaches - rightly or wrongly. The first was his look at the Dutch set at Ajax, with continuity of youth players comming through more regularly and seemlessly taking teh place of those that had been sold to bigger clubs - I am sure Lowe liked the idea of the revenue stream this potentially created as well - but if the players were going to ;leave anyway as soon as someone came sniffing, then why not cash in if you have a ready made replacement?

 

The second aspect was the SCW thing. I know he was slated and laughed at here. But I believe the premise was based on logic - bring someone in with fresh insights or different approaches to up the ante on Sports science and try and squeeze every advantage out of these to give us an edge over similar sized clubs etc... eg. If we cant compete financially, why not try getting an advantage through improved standards of fitness, sports science and psychology? NOt a stupid idea, if perhaps a naive one given the dangers if there is even the slightest slip up.

 

Lastly we again come to the manager, and perhaps the weakest aspect to Lowe's philosophy. Lowe was mightily ****ed off when Hoddle decamped - his 'north London Yobbos' comment probably being the least of the expletives he probably used in private.

 

So what does he do, the managers job wa becoming like the drummers in Spinal Tap - was there a way of changing the system to make this less relevent? I think his idea was to dilute the role, have a coaching TEAM similar to that of SCW with teh England Rugby squad, a manager who managed less of the side, but a team of specialists in each area, thus becoming less susceptible if one of them leaves for whatever reason.

 

This is only speculation, but it would explain a few things as to why we perceive Lowe as 'clueless' in the traditional football sense because the commentators and fans alike predicted in waves it would not work, was not appropriate for the premiership or in getting senior pros to respect it and respond to it.

 

So does Lowe abandon the plan? NO... but he sees that if he wants to implement this he has to start with..... the youth and get them into the system.

 

It was not helped by relegation either. Instead of abandoning it totally, he probably felt 'arry would have enough to get us to bounce straight back and in teh meantime SCW could get on with implementing the new system beginning with teh youth and reserves... Andrew Surman stated at te time that teh academy and younger players saw real benefits to the vision coaches and greater use and analyse of prozone etc.. but its likely that 'arry, the fans and the media all ridiculing the approach saw the senoir players cool to this as well. The confusion in direction and problems this would ahve given 'arry were clear to see and so again it was abandoned... Lowe puts it back on the shelf to wait until the time is right... Brings ion Burley who has achieved good things with Hearts. Then of course he is ousted in the boardroom shuffle.

 

Skip forward to the return and waht do we see? Pearson is the innocent victim of LOwe's desire to finally implement parts of his strategy - he believes the time is right, we are skint so it provides a good reason to use the kids who are cheap, and has teh belief that the acaemy boys have teh potential to play that passing game and achieve success, even if it takes a couple of seasons... brings in the Dutch Duo and away we go.. the football quality is good, its entertaining and surely it will only be a matter of time before the results reflect this approach and he wins over the sceptics?

 

As we now know, it failed. And yes there are those who say honestly they predicted it would - and probably teh odds were stacked against it working with such young and inexperienced players. But that did not mean it was guarranteed to fail.

 

We are still playing good football, passing the ball quickly and playing an entertaining style, probably not that far removed from what we started the season doing, albeit with a more traditional and importantly with the added experience, so I dont actually believe Wotte has changed a great deal in the philosophy, just been fortunate enough to be able to utilise greater experience - players whose use naturally dictates the formation being used and its a huge improvement.

 

This post is bound to be seen by some as some sort of apology or support of Lowe. Whatever, not bothered by that tag any more. But its really just my musings on why I suspect/believe Lowe has gone about it in this way. And yes I can see the logic in it, yes I can even honestly say I like the concept of it. BUT I can also as everyone else can see that if the points dont add up, its failing and irrespective of what is causing that it needs to be reviewed.

 

Ironically, as mentioned, I dont actually think Wotte is doing much different to what was being done before, just more experience, and a better more cohesive attitude and passion means we are finally getting the results the style and approach deserves. Will it be enough over the next 10 games? hopefully yes, but its going to be tight. As for next year? who knows what strange and wierd things will happen over the summer....

[trousers]

Or this one?

 

Whatever' date=' UP... turning that post into your 'diservice of wotte' is typical... I used to enjoy watching out and reading your responses, but now they are like a stuck record, you repeat the same stuff whatever is actually posted or whatever is actually said - no skin off my nose if you dont read the waffle, but please at least respond in context, surely thats not beyond someone of your wisdom and insight???[/quote']

[Wes Tender]

I've been away all week seeing clients on the Channel Islands. I had no access to hearing the match against Ipswich and only read the result from a hasty glance at the sports pages in a newspaper the following morning at the airport while transferring from Guernsey to Jersey. You could have knocked me down with a feather when I read that we had beaten the Tractor Boys 3-0. Having got back home earlier this evening, I have watched the highlights on Virgin Sports and it appears that Ipswich had a lot of the play and poor finishing and our good defending and another great save by KD made the difference between us and them and we are looking more confident in taking the chances offered to us at the other end, with Euell making a difference up front with Saganowski.

 

I must agree that although it is still too early to make any sort of realistic judgement, it is certainly indicative that we might have turned a corner under Wotte that just wasn't there under the hapless Poortvliet.

 

However, whether Wotte was culpable as Poortvliet's subordinate for the disastrous start to the season or not, has little relevance when it is plain that the policy pursued by Lowe through the two of them has thankfully been ditched before we have totally run out of time to redress things before it is too late. I never anticipated that we would win three matches on the trot and if we continue in this vein of form, we can hopefully climb away from the drop zone and breathe a huge sigh of relief.

 

As it stands at the moment, Wotte has bought himself some more time and a growing reputation. But not for one milli-second does my loathing for Lowe diminish one iota.

[Frank's cousin]

Typical of the truth maybe.

 

Wotte, to his credit has come in and fundamentally changed much on the playing side from training to preparation to team choices to tactics to line up et al.

 

To suggest he has not doing much different is spectacularly ignoring all the evidence in recent games (not least to say points on the board).

 

If he isn't doing that much different, then how come we now have the form of a play off chasing team (1.57 pts per game), when before we had the form of relegation candidates????

 

You just blatently misunderstood the context completely - no longer sure if intentionally or just because you just cant...

[Frank's cousin]

Please can people not quote Franks Cousins posts. Thanks.

 

To many long words? Just for you stanley, I'll start posting cartoons. This is actually so funny, because for someone so adverse to my posts, you seem somewhat obsessed. Are you stalking me? You sould actually read some and you might then have the something intersting to provide in your responses.... but i doubt it.

Edited 7 March, 2009 by Frank's cousin

[Under Weststand]

If & its still a big if at the moment we stay up & Woote is responsible for that I will hold my hands up & say well done. But he cannot absolve himself from what's gone on so far this season, he has to take some of the responsibility for the way we played & the team we picked. This was supposed to be one big happy seamless team, now only 1 remains Head coach sacked, the other 2 on gardening leave??

So as yet the humble pie is still firmly in the freezer, but hope to be defrosting in a few weeks for a large slice.

[Wes Tender]

Surely the only things that have happened this year

 

1 SVENSSON will not play again and has been replaced by JPS

 

Well, did anybody seriously expect him to return to full fitness and have a season of playing most games without injury? Was JPS a replacement for Svenson, or for Andrew Davies, who seemed to me to be a perfectly respectable defender. And what was also proven was that youngsters like Lancashire weren't up to the job just yet.

 

2 Saga probably our best player is now available and because of that and Euell being fully fit the tactics have changed to a more realistic system which is more appropriate to the Championship and Wotte is a strong manager.

 

Rewriting history. Saga was sent out by Lowe because of his wages and we would have got shot of Euell for the same reason. We had already farmed out John and Rasiak because of that. It was pure lunacy to go down that road in the first place and thankfully desperate measures being called for, the penny has finally dropped with a resounding clang that players like Saganowski, Euell and indeed Scacel, can actually make a positive difference to the team as they add experience, class and an example for the youngsters to follow.

 

The tactics were changed because the previous tactics of playing one up front were not working. It is as simple as that. As much as Wotte seems to be a stronger manager, Poortvliet was a weaker manager. A thoroughly nice bloke, but weak, vacillating, totally out of his depth and incompetant. Thank's Rupert.

 

3 We have had more luck or rub of the green.

 

You make your own luck in football. Rub of the green has nothing to do with it.

 

 

The major point of the emphasis on the Academy surely is still in tact

 

No it isn't. The current situation is exactly as it has been since before the arrival of Poortvliet. We are mostly playing older and more experienced players as the backbone to the team, together with a few talented younger players, which is a sensible strategy and certainly not unique to us. The big mistake was blooding far too many of them too early and the resultant damage to their confidence will set some of them back in their future development.

[Mole]

To many long words? Just for you stanley' date=' I'll start posting cartoons. This is actually so funny, because for someone so adverse to my posts, you seem somewhat obsessed. Are you stalking me? You sould actually read some and you might then have the something intersting to provide in your responses.... but i doubt it.[/quote']

 

Rivetting stuff Frank as usual. I don't know how you do it.

[Alain Perrin]

Rivetting stuff Frank as usual. I don't know how you do it.

 

Somewhere to the right of the space bar there are two keys. Page Up / Page Down. If you don't want to read what someone's posted, use them.

 

Happy to help.

[Weston Saint]

Edit...put on different thead

Edited 7 March, 2009 by Weston Saint

[St Marco]

Hate to bump old threads but thought maybe this one should be to see if people still think the same as they did?

 

Johnny made it quite clear he didn't rate Pearson but rated Wotte. Now that Wotte failed to reach the same amount of points as Pearson did in his time here over the same period of games does he now think Wotte is **** too?