SW11_Saint Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 The question is....who rattled who's cage first? i.e. wasn't the chronology as follows? 1) Saints playing badly 2) A section of fans get fed up and protest 3) Wotte reacts with provocative comments which gives rise to a siege mentality and unity amongst the players and manager 4) Saints start winning again Some might argue that it's the very fans that Wotte rightly or wrongly 'had a pop at' that acted as a catalyst to the current renaissance. Just a theory which no doubt will be shot down in flames for resembling something close to an opinion. No one will shoot it down for it being an opinion. They might not agree with your opion mind... I don't as it goes - from what I heard of Wotte after his original outburst he did a lot of back-tracking, and tried to pour oil on troubled waters, which was the right thing to do. His original words were clumsy, and he recognised that which is to his credit. I don't think for a minute the players have developed a 'siege mentality' due to his comments about our own fans. I think he's simply just got them better organised, has a better blend of youth and experience, has clearly done a better job of motivating them and the results are breeding confidence. Well done him, and them - I am happy with what's happening now (which most of us have cried out for all season - hence the frustration, culminating in the demo's), and long may it continue. Let's not turn the recent run of good results into a stick to beat our own fans with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Or maybe Lowe and Co will still be in charge having learned a painful lesson...? (It's ok...I'll stop this balanced open-mindedness one of these days.....) Not sure it's open mindedness Trousers, more blind faith, given his track record of "learning (from) painful lessons"!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Lowe deserves no credit for appointing Wotte,he couldn't do much else,he has just got lucky.[/QUOTE] Is Rupert's middle name Nigel? He got lucky recruiting our real saviour Richard Wright or did Big Nige give all 3 keepers a bit of a kicking to twist Crouchies arm to get Wright in? Who appointed Wotte in the Summer? Crouch, Ken Bates, Peter Risdale, Mary Corbett, Chris '1 client' McMenemy. No matter how you spin it, Lowe identifed Wotte as a very useful employee and has simply instigated a bit of succession planning. Ability to turn around a false move is the art of good management as oppose to simply talking up false hope and then start praying knowing you've risked it all. A week ago I thought it would be an excellent idea to have Crouch on the board to attempt to unite the fan base. Unfortunately, some fans have made it clear that if Lowe/Wotte delivered Premier legaue football they would still want them out. I can't relate to such illogiocal mentality and whilst that tone pervades through the extremes of the fan base frankly i am happy to support Lowe and Wotte through whatever it takes. Even kids for £1;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 The question is....who rattled who's cage first? i.e. wasn't the chronology as follows? 1) Saints playing badly 2) A section of fans get fed up and protest 3) Wotte reacts with provocative comments which gives rise to a siege mentality and unity amongst the players and manager 4) Saints start winning again Some might argue that it's the very fans that Wotte rightly or wrongly 'had a pop at' that acted as a catalyst to the current renaissance. Just a theory which no doubt will be shot down in flames for resembling something close to an opinion. Lol, it's the internet - you're allowed an opinion as long as you agree with everyone:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 No matter how you spin it, Lowe identifed Wotte as a very useful employee and has simply instigated a bit of succession planning. Ability to turn around a false move is the art of good management as oppose to simply talking up false hope and then start praying knowing you've risked it all. Lordy, what is this obsession you have with "succession planning"?! - surely the art of good management is even better evidenced by making the right appointment in the first place? You still seem to see Lowe turning to back room boy Wotte after JP's awful stint as some work of unparrallelled genius. If Lowe saw such promise in him, why not just appoint him in the first place?... then we might be in a better position than we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Even kids for £1;) PS Still waiting for a sensible answer on this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Lordy, what is this obsession you have with "succession planning"?! - surely the art of good management is even better evidenced by making the right appointment in the first place? You still seem to see Lowe turning to back room boy Wotte after JP's awful stint as some work of unparrallelled genius. If Lowe saw such promise in him, why not just appoint him in the first place?... then we might be in a better position than we are. Lordy what is your obsession in trying to undermine everything the club is trying and that there maybe some merit in a positive theory. Wotte didn't want the job but is it so beyond reason that Lowe and Wotte did not have a discussion before Wotte joined us that maybe he could have the role if the situation arose sometime in the future. In any event it was an excellent hire and not a McMenemy or nepotism laced appointment in sight. Can you live with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 PS Still waiting for a sensible answer on this... Likewise the question. Remember I don't run the club and occassionally they do things i don't agree with. What do you suggest i do, go on a march? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 The question is....who rattled who's cage first? i.e. wasn't the chronology as follows? 1) Saints playing badly 2) A section of fans get fed up and protest 3) Wotte reacts with provocative comments which gives rise to a siege mentality and unity amongst the players and manager 4) Saints start winning again Some might argue that it's the very fans that Wotte rightly or wrongly 'had a pop at' that acted as a catalyst to the current renaissance. Just a theory which no doubt will be shot down in flames for resembling something close to an opinion. i think it is a combination of the fans unrest and also RL/board also seeing that Jan was on the road to nowhere.They also watch the game and have their own concerns. the fans unrest undoubtably helped push the decision on, it may also be said that fans alos were starting to pin point Askham as another place to blame. I dont care what caused the change but it was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Lordy what is your obsession in trying to undermine everything the club is trying and that there maybe some merit in a positive theory. Wotte didn't want the job but is it so beyond reason that Lowe and Wotte did not have a discussion before Wotte joined us that maybe he could have the role if the situation arose sometime in the future. I'm not trying to undermine anything, just point out that your continual serenading of Lowe for appointing the 'next in command' (when his original choice finally does the honourable thing and quits) as some act of strategic genius is, with respect, bow-locks. As for Lowe 'appointing JP, letting him fail, then coercing Wotte into the role, which is what Lowe wanted in the first place' (?!) - let's not go there eh, you've been down that hypothetical hypothesis before and it doesn't do you any favours... In any event it was an excellent hire and not a McMenemy or nepotism laced appointment in sight. Can you live with that? Okay, you've lost me again - not sure where I've mentioned McMenemy anwhere, why is he being brought up? And where does nepotism come into it? Was Pearson Leon's nephew or something?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 And no truer word will be said on this forum, whilst both sides of the fence engage in a ****ing competition, the club is slowly begining to turn a corner and get itself out of the godalmighty pile of ****e that it's been in for the last four years. I'm not sure that I like Mark Wotte. I find him cold, arrogant and immensely fan-unfriendly. I think his comments about the protesters was ill-timed rubbish and I wish to god he'd just stick to management as it obviously appears that that is his main strength. But whilst I don't particularly like him, he's the right man at the right place at the right time... right now. Was Lowe closer than to being right than we give him credit for? Absolutely not. There is a fine line between balancing the books and keeping the football ticking along. By getting rid of Pearson and relying on kids, Lowe made a most calamitous mistake. People may mock Alan Hansen for saying you'll win nothing with kids but he unfortunately refered to a once in a generation selection of young footballers. You certainly won't get out of this league by playing just kids, you need a blend, half and half. A strong spine of established pros who know the score and can help make the youngsters better players with that experience. By throwing the youngsters to the wolves I think Lowe has put back the development of some players who have suffered the burdon of expectation. The likes of Drew Surman and Adam Lallana have had huge pressure put on them and god only knows what the long term effects of the boos and jeers will have on the other young lads. Too much, way too soon. Lowe was wrong, end of. He dumped a talented coach and quite unbeliveably put his trust in a nice guy but a nice guy with nowhere near enough experience of English football. People can harp on all they want but the fact that Pearson has gone on to be very successful at Leicester shows that he is a good coach and yes we did miss out. Six months wasted. In the meantime, why can't we just revel in the glory of three hugely impressive wins on the bounce, not be smug, not be bitter and just be Saints fans? Please? Excellent post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 I do hope the person whow did that is eating some rather large slices of Frank Cousin's humble pie!!!!! Is Frank baking again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Likewise the question. Remember I don't run the club and occassionally they do things i don't agree with. What do you suggest i do, go on a march? Okay, I will press no further, but hopefully you now see the point - Lowe "resorting" to the 'Kids for a Quid' thing is no better, or no worse, than Leon doing it. Some balance prevails. And for the record again, I think it's a good idea regardless. Re. the march - yes, I think the fresh air would probably do you some good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Lowe deserves no credit for appointing Wotte,he couldn't do much else,he has just got lucky.[/QUOTE] Is Rupert's middle name Nigel? He got lucky recruiting our real saviour Richard Wright or did Big Nige give all 3 keepers a bit of a kicking to twist Crouchies arm to get Wright in? Who appointed Wotte in the Summer? Crouch, Ken Bates, Peter Risdale, Mary Corbett, Chris '1 client' McMenemy. No matter how you spin it, Lowe identifed Wotte as a very useful employee and has simply instigated a bit of succession planning. Ability to turn around a false move is the art of good management as oppose to simply talking up false hope and then start praying knowing you've risked it all. A week ago I thought it would be an excellent idea to have Crouch on the board to attempt to unite the fan base. Unfortunately, some fans have made it clear that if Lowe/Wotte delivered Premier legaue football they would still want them out. I can't relate to such illogiocal mentality and whilst that tone pervades through the extremes of the fan base frankly i am happy to support Lowe and Wotte through whatever it takes. Even kids for £1;) If Lowe and Wotte ever deliver Premier League football to us they can stay forever as far as I am concerned but there is more chance of SoG buying a season ticket next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 I'm not trying to undermine anything, just point out that your continual serenading of Lowe for appointing the 'next in command' (when his original choice finally does the honourable thing and quits) as some act of strategic genius is, with respect, bow-locks. Absolutley. And all those who suggested that this squad should be performing better than they were under Poortvliet have been 100% vindicated. I can clearly remember the threads where many were arguing that changing the manager (like changing the CEO) would make no difference. Wotte has performed really well and arguably if he hadn't have been left in such a mess, and such a short time to turn it around, then he could have had us mid table by now!!! We're playing catch up because of some horrendous decisions earlier in this season, so as you say the idea that we should now thank Lowe for succession planning or strategic thinking is risible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Absolutley. And all those who suggested that this squad should be performing better than they were under Poortvliet have been 100% vindicated. I can clearly remember the threads where many were arguing that changing the manager (like changing the CEO) would make no difference. Wotte has performed really well and arguably if he hadn't have been left in such a mess, and such a short time to turn it around, then he could have had us mid table by now!!! We're playing catch up because of some horrendous decisions earlier in this season, so as you say the idea that we should now thank Lowe for succession planning or strategic thinking is risible. You are taking words out of my mouth, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wightman35 Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 What was the original question, then? Oh I remember.......... ANSWER: NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 Absolutley. And all those who suggested that this squad should be performing better than they were under Poortvliet have been 100% vindicated. I can clearly remember the threads where many were arguing that changing the manager (like changing the CEO) would make no difference. Wotte has performed really well and arguably if he hadn't have been left in such a mess, and such a short time to turn it around, then he could have had us mid table by now!!! We're playing catch up because of some horrendous decisions earlier in this season, so as you say the idea that we should now thank Lowe for succession planning or strategic thinking is risible.As you know I thought Jan was in the job too long, I also have pointed out that LC said he was going to replace Wotte if he could oust RL. Is that not the same as what RL did with NP? Reckless and perhaps bad decisions.It just shows all can make a mistake (although Wotte in his own admission has done nothing yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 4 March, 2009 Share Posted 4 March, 2009 As you know I thought Jan was in the job too long, I also have pointed out that LC said he was going to replace Wotte if he could oust RL. Is that not the same as what RL did with NP? Reckless and perhaps bad decisions.It just shows all can make a mistake (although Wotte in his own admission has done nothing yet) Surely Crouch would have been lobbying to replace Poortvliet, as he met with Lowe earlier in the day that Poortvliet resigned. I think he was up for replacing Poortvliet with someone other than Wotte, but after Wotte had been given the job I have only heard Crouch say Wotte should be supported until the end of the season (happy to be corrected, mind). This bit in the Echo makes it clear he would have liked someone else to replace Poortvliet, and it also says Wotte should be supported once Wilde and Lowe went with that decision. http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4078741.Crouch__Why_I_proposed_changes/ As far as I am aware I have not heard Crouch say he was going to replace Wotte once he was in situ. But you're right about the Lowe threat hovering over Pearson, absolutely terrible considering we were in the midst of a relegation battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 4 March, 2009 I have a question that's bugging me.... Who introduced Poortvliet to Lowe in the first place? (a) Wotte ? (b) van der Waals ? © "someone else" ? We know that Lowe wanted to give Wotte a crack of the whip 3 years ago before turning to Burley, and that Wotte fancied the job at he time. We also know that Wotte didn't want the 'head coach' job this time around (for some unknown reason) but I assume Lowe offered him the job again this time last year whilst hatching his comeback plan. So who suggested Poortvliet to Lowe as an alternative head coach to Wotte? (I doubt Lowe knew of Poortvliet directly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 I have a question that's bugging me.... Who introduced Poortvliet to Lowe in the first place? (a) Wotte ? (b) van der Waals ? © "someone else" ? We know that Lowe wanted to give Wotte a crack of the whip 3 years ago before turning to Burley, and that Wotte fancied the job at he time. We also know that Wotte didn't want the 'head coach' job this time around (for some unknown reason) but I assume Lowe offered him the job again this time last year whilst hatching his comeback plan. So who suggested Poortvliet to Lowe as an alternative head coach to Wotte? (I doubt Lowe knew of Poortvliet directly) My understanding is that Wigley brought Wotte to Lowe's attention, but have absolutely no idea where Poortvliet came from. Three years ago Wotte was wanted alongside Lok, so was it definite that Wotte was number one back then, and not Lok as number one, with Wotte in the background, or was it definitely Wotte in charge, with Lok behind him?? Would also be interested to know just how we ended up with Poortlviet, how his name first got mentioned and what research we did on the guy. And given the mysterious nature of the man, would still love to know exactly who Van Der Waals is/was and how much of an influence he has been (considering that in that interview he credits himself with developing the strategy alongside Lowe!!!)?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northam soul Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 I was wondering how much the delay in season ticket sales will affect our finances. I would of thought we would be desperate for the income that they provide now, can we afford to wait until April or later. Surely the club could run a deposit scheme for those that will obviously renew whatever thus bringing in some of the money early and then pay the balance later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 I was wondering how much the delay in season ticket sales will affect our finances. I would of thought we would be desperate for the income that they provide now, can we afford to wait until April or later. Surely the club could run a deposit scheme for those that will obviously renew whatever thus bringing in some of the money early and then pay the balance later. I think it shows the perilous state of the club's finances and I guess they want assurances form the bank and other 'backers' they will not remove their financial support and force the club to go bust. In that event any funds paid by supporters in full or on deposit would likely be lost and go towards paying of the principal creditors. In theory you are right but with the risk of administration I think it is right and fair that ST monies for next season are not collected if there is the slightest risk of administration. I have no inside track on this but just reading between the lines with regard to comments made by Wilde, a poster on this forum whose views I regard highly (but don't always agree with) and how the club has managed ST renewals in the past. Strange though that lowe may indeed have our best interests at heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 I think it shows the perilous state of the club's finances and I guess they want assurances form the bank and other 'backers' they will not remove their financial support and force the club to go bust. In that event any funds paid by supporters in full or on deposit would likely be lost and go towards paying of the principal creditors. In theory you are right but with the risk of administration I think it is right and fair that ST monies for next season are not collected if there is the slightest risk of administration. I have no inside track on this but just reading between the lines with regard to comments made by Wilde, a poster on this forum whose views I regard highly (but don't always agree with) and how the club has managed ST renewals in the past. Strange though that lowe may indeed have our best interests at heart. Simple solution - only allow season ticket renewals for people who pay by credit card, thus the fans are protected and the club gets its' money. If it was possible, they should only accept Barclaycard so that if Barclays pull the rug from under the club, Barclays will have to refund those that have renewed early - thus Barclays would have no interest in withdrawing finance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 I think it shows the perilous state of the club's finances and I guess they want assurances form the bank and other 'backers' they will not remove their financial support and force the club to go bust. In that event any funds paid by supporters in full or on deposit would likely be lost and go towards paying of the principal creditors. In theory you are right but with the risk of administration I think it is right and fair that ST monies for next season are not collected if there is the slightest risk of administration. I have no inside track on this but just reading between the lines with regard to comments made by Wilde, a poster on this forum whose views I regard highly (but don't always agree with) and how the club has managed ST renewals in the past. Strange though that lowe may indeed have our best interests at heart. An equally valid tale on this delay is that it would be next to impossible to actually set the level of pricing when the club do not know themselves whether they will be in League 1 next season? Somehow if we go down I would expect the season tickets and admission prices to reflect the new realities of the opposition and be 20-30% cheaper. How many early birds would be on here screaming if that happened. And the idea of giving refunds? no because the ST money is linked to the bond payments and the overdraft and I can't see THEM wanting to give a refund. (mind you still think the delay is due to possible admin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 An equally valid tale on this delay is that it would be next to impossible to actually set the level of pricing when the club do not know themselves whether they will be in League 1 next season? Somehow if we go down I would expect the season tickets and admission prices to reflect the new realities of the opposition and be 20-30% cheaper. How many early birds would be on here screaming if that happened. And the idea of giving refunds? no because the ST money is linked to the bond payments and the overdraft and I can't see THEM wanting to give a refund. (mind you still think the delay is due to possible admin) Phil, re your first point it didn't stop Crouch issuing the March madness offer at the previous years prices last season. He was right by 20 minutes but I still renewed in March and the fact he left justified it was a risk worth taking. 62 points maybe the cut off point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he? Surely it was the tactics employed by JP that have caused the current problems. From the Celtic and Blackpool games early in the season it was evident that the lone or later to become the loan striker was not going to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 5 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 5 March, 2009 Surely it was the tactics employed by JP that have caused the current problems. JP was simply carrying out a strategy hatched in the board room. The OS articles published at the time of their (JP and MW) arrival give the full details of what Wilde and Lowe were thinking. Blaming JP is a bit like blaming an army major for taking us to war in Iraq rather than blaming Blair. (note: I'm not attempting to compare the magnitude of war with the running of a football club, rather highlighting the hierachy of an organisation and where the 'orders' emanate from.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 Absolutley. And all those who suggested that this squad should be performing better than they were under Poortvliet have been 100% vindicated. I can clearly remember the threads where many were arguing that changing the manager (like changing the CEO) would make no difference. . You omit the issue of whether JP had the SAME players at his disposal though, regardless of the reasons (and we DONT know the facts about the contract/financial restrictions - merely speculation) why, he did not. Had Wotte the same options would he be faring any better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 You omit the issue of whether JP had the SAME players at his disposal though, regardless of the reasons (and we DONT know the facts about the contract/financial restrictions - merely speculation) why, he did not. Had Wotte the same options would he be faring any better?The answer for me Frank is yes he would have performed better than JP. Why? The formation has changed to one more suitable to this league and the spirit in the dressing room and on the field of play is also better. Wotte is stronger and more disciplined. That aside, wining breeds confidence and it is also possible Wotte had more player choice from the moment he came in. Overall JP was out of his depth, of that I am convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 5 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 5 March, 2009 Overall JP was out of his depth, of that I am convinced. Which still begs the question.....who recommended him to Lowe in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsacar saint Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 When will everyone on the forum accept that Lowe will never ever know the first thing about the football side of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 5 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 5 March, 2009 when will everyone on the forum accept that lowe will never ever know the first thing about the football side of the club. 1996 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 Surely Crouch would have been lobbying to replace Poortvliet, as he met with Lowe earlier in the day that Poortvliet resigned. I think he was up for replacing Poortvliet with someone other than Wotte, but after Wotte had been given the job I have only heard Crouch say Wotte should be supported until the end of the season (happy to be corrected, mind). This bit in the Echo makes it clear he would have liked someone else to replace Poortvliet, and it also says Wotte should be supported once Wilde and Lowe went with that decision. http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4078741.Crouch__Why_I_proposed_changes/ As far as I am aware I have not heard Crouch say he was going to replace Wotte once he was in situ. But you're right about the Lowe threat hovering over Pearson, absolutely terrible considering we were in the midst of a relegation battle.Thanks again for that UM. I do recall on the eve of the first march how he did a tv interview and was saying he had a manager lined up. It could be my imagination of course.I think him saying he was to rid us of Jan by implication would mean he would rid us of Wotte as well of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 Thanks again for that UM. I do recall on the eve of the first march how he did a tv interview and was saying he had a manager lined up. I think in that interview he was alluding to his offer of putting money in, coming back in some capcity and replacing Poortvliet. I think Crouch realised that once Wotte was appointed we had probably rolled the dice for this season and the only option was to back the manager. I think he was happy to undermine Poortvliet (and fair fcking play to him, because Wilde and Lowe were dawdling), but he did not undermine Wotte as far as I am aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 Thanks again for that UM. I do recall on the eve of the first march how he did a tv interview and was saying he had a manager lined up. It could be my imagination of course.I think him saying he was to rid us of Jan by implication would mean he would rid us of Wotte as well of course. If Wotte proves to be a good manager I expect Crouch would see the sense of keeping him on. Unlike Lowe who just sacks good managers out of spite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 It's been said a dozen times....he won't listen to you. The same thing will be trotted out on a new thread...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 If Wotte proves to be a good manager I expect Crouch would see the sense of keeping him on. Unlike Lowe who just sacks good managers out of spite. Thats fair, but of course at the moment, in my opinion, neither NP or Wotte are brilliant. Wotte in his own words has done nothing unless he keeps us up. If he does he will have done a far better job than NP did. Whether he could unite the fans like NP did is another thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 5 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 5 March, 2009 Wotte in his own words has done nothing unless he keeps us up. If he does he will have done a far better job than NP did. Will be difficult to compare the two IMO when the season is done and dusted as both started from different positions. i.e. NP came in cold whereas Wotte has the advantage of having 9 months experience in a senior position at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 JP was simply carrying out a strategy hatched in the board room. The OS articles published at the time of their (JP and MW) arrival give the full details of what Wilde and Lowe were thinking. Blaming JP is a bit like blaming an army major for taking us to war in Iraq rather than blaming Blair. (note: I'm not attempting to compare the magnitude of war with the running of a football club, rather highlighting the hierachy of an organisation and where the 'orders' emanate from.) The idea of developing the Academy to bring players through obviously was Wilde's and Lowe's ideas but I did not realise it was their idea to play with only one lone striker which I thought particularly stupid at the start of the season when I saw it in action for myself. However the plan for bring through Academy players seems to be still in force with Gobern McLaggon Thomson Patterson White Lancashire Mills around to play in the first team in years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 5 March, 2009 Share Posted 5 March, 2009 If Lowe and Wotte ever deliver Premier League football to us they can stay forever as far as I am concerned but there is more chance of SoG buying a season ticket next season. Changed your tune a tad haven't you Dunc? I thought that you once said that you would rather Saints get relegated than Lowe stay at the helm....trouble is you got both! And as for buying a season ticket there is more chance of that happening if we get relegated again as, on my wages, I might just be able afford one in the third tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 5 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 5 March, 2009 The idea of developing the Academy to bring players through obviously was Wilde's and Lowe's ideas but I did not realise it was their idea to play with only one lone striker which I thought particularly stupid at the start of the season when I saw it in action for myself. I've just spent over half hour reading back again through the OS articles published at the time that the "Dutch Duo" were installed and it's quite clear that Lowe and Wilde were promoting and endorsing the on pitch tactics as well as the overall infrastructure changes. IMHO of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 6 March, 2009 Share Posted 6 March, 2009 We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he? IMHO, he WAS a million miles away ...... Agreed, it could well be that Wotte is turning things around SO, WHY did Lowe appoint POORTVLIET ??? ... THAT is the flaw in your argument Lowe CANNOT now take credit, as his INITIAL Appointment proved to be CATASTROHIC, in terms of Results etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyFartPants Posted 6 March, 2009 Share Posted 6 March, 2009 IMHO, he WAS a million miles away ...... Agreed, it could well be that Wotte is turning things around SO, WHY did Lowe appoint POORTVLIET ??? ... THAT is the flaw in your argument Lowe CANNOT now take credit, as his INITIAL Appointment proved to be CATASTROHIC, in terms of Results etc etc p off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonToo Posted 6 March, 2009 Share Posted 6 March, 2009 Maybe MW didn't want the 1st team coach position last summer as he knew the experiment was high risk and likely to fail. Far better, surely, for him to bide his time and then pick up the pieces once failure had been acknowledged? We'll have to wait for the end of the season to make a final assessment of MW but so far the signs are encouraging and if his ego is a match for Lowe's then so much the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 6 March, 2009 Share Posted 6 March, 2009 p off. The 'p' is silent, as in 'bath' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 6 March, 2009 Share Posted 6 March, 2009 Will be difficult to compare the two IMO when the season is done and dusted as both started from different positions. i.e. NP came in cold whereas Wotte has the advantage of having 9 months experience in a senior position at the club. Lol, positioning to hold a position are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 6 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 6 March, 2009 SO, WHY did Lowe appoint POORTVLIET ??? ... THAT is the flaw in your argument Just for the record, it's not my "argument" it was a semi-hypothetical question. I actually agree with the supplementary "why Poortvliet?" question and indeed have asked it many times without any ITK replies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 6 March, 2009 Share Posted 6 March, 2009 The idea of developing the Academy to bring players through obviously was Wilde's and Lowe's ideas but I did not realise it was their idea to play with only one lone striker which I thought particularly stupid at the start of the season when I saw it in action for myself. However the plan for bring through Academy players seems to be still in force with Gobern McLaggon Thomson Patterson White Lancashire Mills around to play in the first team in years to come. It has always been good strategy to blood the younger players. Burley left them in the cold. Pearson does it sensibly at Leicester. Even Redknapp knew what he was doing. JP/Lowe/Wilde did it for political reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 6 March, 2009 Share Posted 6 March, 2009 p off. Thank you for your usual articulate, fact full, and well reasoned response .. Does that mean you think Lowe planned it all to come out like it has ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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