Was Lowe a lot closer to being right than we give him credit for?

[Legod Third Coming]

When?

 

When he dives and throws his arms up in the air mainly...

[dubai_phil]

... Did you read Wilde's comments in the programme about constructive meetings with the bank and backers in recent weeks?

 

I think maybe we need to give Lowe some credit for having a plan b to revert to unlike the kneejerk reaction when Pearson was appointed. In addition credit maybe due that Lowe may just be working quite hard at keeping this club from administration and not inviting fans to pay for discounted Season Tickets when they maybe the prospect of them becoming creditors at the bottom of a pile of a failed football club. Perhaps Lowe is concerned that as soon as those funds for renewals hit the bank account the bank will pull the plug on their backing and we go into administration because of a lack of cashflow. Far be it from me to suggest that Lowe has been quiet because he has been diligently trying to reverse two spectacularly failed years of gross mismanagement.

 

This is all my own assessment and conclusion and I have no inside knowledge but the clues are there and IMO Lowe has in the last 9 months acted in the best interests of the club and supporter alike and the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration. Given the enormity of that task some decisions he got wrong and many he has got right but all I believe have been done in good faith. The fact that he has turned it around and all the balls are still in the air I think we need to recognise that although the job is far from done positive progress is now being made and at the right time and the impact on the interests of club's supporters are being very closely considered.

 

Hopefully, the barrell is well and truly scraped but I'll leave the negative extremists to put a hole in it.

 

OK here is the key issue.

 

I agree in that of all the options available with the mess we were in, Lowe was the best one to keep the BUSINESS running. Shame we are a Football Club.

 

Like you I actually am inclined to believe that he IS working very hard behind the scenes to find ways to secure investment or simply to keep the bank from killing us, the idea of blackmailing the bank by refusing to offer early ST renewal options sounds like a good tactic.

 

There is as many have stated no denying that major cost cutting surgery HAD to be implemented in the summer....

 

However, the PROBLEM still exists that on top of all of that Lowe made a rod for his OWN back, a major gamble which he tried to label as a revolution, a "new way". There was at least ONE risk too many in that concept.

 

It did not work, it was becoming clear it wasn't working in the run up to Christmas, Lowe delayed the "performance review" with JP for too long, allowing the club to enter the relegation zone, as well as alienating even more supporters who, at the end of the day we needed at the ground to "keep the business running"

 

So yes fair play to Lowe for keeping the "business" running on empty for so long.

 

But we are not in a simple business we are in Football, which is by and large an Entertainment business, ANY fool could run a Football Club IF they had the right experts around to give advice.

 

But if you don't listen to advice or don't allow experts around, or even have the wrong experts.... you get where we are today.

 

Financial Director maybe, Chairman or even Leader - no way

[um pahars]

I've always believed that to experience success you must at first experience failure and that helps you to role with the punches.

 

And as Dubai Phil so eloquently pointed out, it is also good if you learn from those failures, something which Lowe has continually failed to do.

 

Which brings us neatly on to:

 

Slagging Lowe off is just a waste of energy

 

Football is all about opinions, and with the CEO/Chairman playing such a pivotal role at our Club, then criticism (and praise) is all fair game.

 

Indeed, if by appraising Lowe and by pointing out his huge mistake in pursuing this flawed strategy, it ensures these mistakes are not repeated then it is certainly not a waste of energy.

 

Given he was the main driver of this monumental cck up, then i think it is an absolutely valid assertion that he really shouldn't be playing a part in future decisions of this magnitude.

 

Judging him solely by his performance, he has been found wanting and bringing this back to the OP he was a million miles from being right by taking us down the Revolutionary COaching Set Up playing Total Football with ex Academy lads.

[sidthesquid]

I'm not one for older journeymen and I genuinely wanted the idea of the kids to work, but it's the quality of the older players that has made the real difference.

 

My take on the old brigade:

 

Kelvin - getting better with age, like many keepers

Perry - an oustanding professional who only occasionally shows his age but looks fit and reads the game so well

Saga - works hard and looks like scoring every game

Euell - has worked so hard to win the crowd over (me included) and goes around the team like an old-hand, cajoling and motivating like a captain

Saejis - quality player

Skacel - mmm, when he puts it in he really puts it in, but typical eastern European playboy some of the time!

 

I half agree - I agree with the above but the youngsters have also come on leaps and bounds. Of the above Davis Perry & Skacel have played a lot of this season & last (& Saga was around last season,too) & Euell in particular has hardly set the place alight until the last few games so its not like they've just been rediscovered. I think the biggest plus is Saeijs. Otherwise just a better manager getting more out of the players

[Viking Warrior]

Steve I don't want to git into an argument re the too many Ifs in my post

 

Yes the total football could have succeeded but as football is results based and the results have shown in our case , in the short term anyway , it has not worked.

 

Last year many on here were calling for youngsters to be given a chance as the older players were not cutting the mustard. Now we have a complete U turn by many calling for our experienced players to be in the starting line up.

 

So many were slagging off Skacel, euell and even saga and I seem to recall that Perry and davies were equally slated.

 

I don't want to go over old ground re lowe. He had a vison, that in theory sounded good but he didnt have an exit stratergy in place, just in case the kids were not ready to bring total football to the game for more than 45 minutes let alonne 95 minutes.

 

Crouch and co who were in charge last season were equally culpable in managing the playing side of the club last year. They made an awful decision in appointing dodd and gorman when burley left.

 

What we now need in my humble opinion is stability with the right manager in charge getting the best out of the players without boardroom interference.

I hope Wotte is now up to the task.

 

For the statisticians amongst you how is his record comparing with Pearson etc etc

[offix]

dropped the "young team" approach

Dropped the "Total Football" sham

Second manager this season

 

Sure, he was right!:rolleyes:

[VectisSaint]

Have you had your season ticket renewal yet? Did you read Wilde's comments in the programme about constructive meetings with the bank and backers in recent weeks?

 

I think maybe we need to give Lowe some credit for having a plan b to revert to unlike the kneejerk reaction when Pearson was appointed. In addition credit maybe due that Lowe may just be working quite hard at keeping this club from administration and not inviting fans to pay for discounted Season Tickets when they maybe the prospect of them becoming creditors at the bottom of a pile of a failed football club. Perhaps Lowe is concerned that as soon as those funds for renewals hit the bank account the bank will pull the plug on their backing and we go into administration because of a lack of cashflow. Far be it from me to suggest that Lowe has been quiet because he has been diligently trying to reverse two spectacularly failed years of gross mismanagement.

 

This is all my own assessment and conclusion and I have no inside knowledge but the clues are there and IMO Lowe has in the last 9 months acted in the best interests of the club and supporter alike and the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration. Given the enormity of that task some decisions he got wrong and many he has got right but all I believe have been done in good faith. The fact that he has turned it around and all the balls are still in the air I think we need to recognise that although the job is far from done positive progress is now being made and at the right time and the impact on the interests of club's supporters are being very closely considered.

 

Hopefully, the barrell is well and truly scraped but I'll leave the negative extremists to put a hole in it.

Priceless. If you weren't so dumb this would almost be funny. So Lowe had a Plan B, oh my MLT, where did that come from? Wilde has had meaningful discussions with the Bankers, wonderful, why is the Football Club Chairman having discussions with Bankers, and not the plc Chairman? And constructie talks with Bankers, you mean those folks who have caused the credit crunch and who take £650k per annum pension funds, well thats comforting to know that they are able to at least understand how a FC is financed.

 

Lowe will never ever do anything "in good faith". Lowe does things to the benefit of shareholders (which of course is something he is supposed to do), but of course the fact that he and his cronies are the biggest shareholders wouldn't be a factor there would it?

 

As for "diligently trying to reverse two spectacularly failed years of gross mismanagement", I assume you mean when his new chum Mike Wilde was in charge (well 18 months anyway). Seems extremists like you think that this is a different Mike Wilde than the one who specatcularly ****ed up, but is now having constructive talks with the bankers, you really coudn't make it up. Two failed business men in charge of our Club and still you cannot se what a waste of space they are.

 

Still I suppose you are entitled to your view, as much as people with a brain are.

[Gingeletiss]

Well one of the Saints fans I know (and highly respected one on this forum if we are point scoring) is aware that I am not a plant and simply choose to support Lowe in the absence of any investment or Crouch or Wilde independently.

 

NC...please help me out here, as it appears that I missed the period where RL invested in the club..unless you of course are referring to the reverse takeover.........LOL, I hope not!!

 

Bottom line I support Saints through thick and thin and the club is my religion and not the chairman. With regard to the chairman I am just a fickle fan and support what I consider to be the best available until such time as someone comes along with better credentials.

 

Surely LC's business portfolio is Superior to that of Rupert, he is by comparison, a hugely successful business man.........is Rupert??

 

Simple as that really and plant if you prefer, in the fact I have very deep roots and they are entwined around the club.

 

I can recognise Lowe has made some bad decisions

 

Ah.....we have an agreement

 

but I don't bother living in the past as long as I can see and believe in the future and understand the reasoning behind the decisions with the limited knowledge of the facts at my disposal.

 

You need to do a bit more reading.....the facts are out there in the public domain.

 

I've always believed that to experience success you must at first experience failure

 

How many times must he fail in your eyes?????

 

and that helps you to role with the punches. Slagging Lowe off is just a waste of energy and given the situation its about time a few posters started looking at the circumstances and see the glass as half full instead of half empty afterall the mind games are working for Wotte and the team.

 

 

NC.........sorry I had to question this post......sorry:roll:

[VectisSaint]

I agree in that of all the options available with the mess we were in, Lowe was the best one to keep the BUSINESS running. Shame we are a Football Club.

 

On what basis can you come to that conclusion? Is Lowe a super successful business man? Evidence? My view of Lowe is that as a buisness man he is a spectacular failure, evidence the share price and the alienation of customers. He was actually the 2nd worst choice available, better only the by the business brain that is Mike Wilde. There are alternative ways to be successful in business than just to cut costs (though that has to be done). Alienating your customers is one of the most prominent signs of a business man who will be a complete failure becuase customers are what count. Fortnately since MW2 (Wotte) has apparently started to turn things around by abandoning RL's mad experiment, the customers have started to return (18k+ yesterday) demonstrating clearly once again that winning at home and giving your all is the key to success, not making pathetic experiments with youngsters playing formations that are completely foreign to them.

 

Rupert Lowe - good business man. My arse.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Priceless. If you weren't so dumb this would almost be funny. So Lowe had a Plan B, oh my MLT, where did that come from? Wilde has had meaningful discussions with the Bankers, wonderful, why is the Football Club Chairman having discussions with Bankers, and not the plc Chairman? And constructie talks with Bankers, you mean those folks who have caused the credit crunch and who take £650k per annum pension funds, well thats comforting to know that they are able to at least understand how a FC is financed.

 

Lowe will never ever do anything "in good faith". Lowe does things to the benefit of shareholders (which of course is something he is supposed to do), but of course the fact that he and his cronies are the biggest shareholders wouldn't be a factor there would it?

 

As for "diligently trying to reverse two spectacularly failed years of gross mismanagement", I assume you mean when his new chum Mike Wilde was in charge (well 18 months anyway). Seems extremists like you think that this is a different Mike Wilde than the one who specatcularly ****ed up, but is now having constructive talks with the bankers, you really coudn't make it up. Two failed business men in charge of our Club and still you cannot se what a waste of space they are.

 

Still I suppose you are entitled to your view, as much as people with a brain are.

 

Just a touch reactionary and none of the points raised addressed just simply written off because it doesn't agree with your prejudiced agenda. Even Um Pahars who makes you look a liberal takes the time to debate the points made. As you point out I have a brain like the rest of us and entitled to my dumb views. Btw we won yesterday, good wasn't it.

[um pahars]

Even Um Pahars who makes you look a liberal takes the time to debate the points made.

 

That's not what you were saying when you slipped back in to your old Sundance mode yesterday;).

 

You need to decide whether you're going to come in here and be Sundance and get all uppity, aggressive and idiotic, or whether you're going to try and enter into a worthy debate.

 

It's pretty difficult trying to understand just exactly where you're coming from with all these mood swings of yours.

[Verbal Kint]

Did you read Wilde's comments in the programme about constructive meetings with the bank and backers in recent weeks?

 

I think maybe we need to give Lowe some credit for having a plan b to revert to unlike the kneejerk reaction when Pearson was appointed. In addition credit maybe due that Lowe may just be working quite hard at keeping this club from administration and not inviting fans to pay for discounted Season Tickets when they maybe the prospect of them becoming creditors at the bottom of a pile of a failed football club. Perhaps Lowe is concerned that as soon as those funds for renewals hit the bank account the bank will pull the plug on their backing and we go into administration because of a lack of cashflow. Far be it from me to suggest that Lowe has been quiet because he has been diligently trying to reverse two spectacularly failed years of gross mismanagement.

 

This is all my own assessment and conclusion and I have no inside knowledge but the clues are there and IMO Lowe has in the last 9 months acted in the best interests of the club and supporter alike and the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration. Given the enormity of that task some decisions he got wrong and many he has got right but all I believe have been done in good faith. The fact that he has turned it around and all the balls are still in the air I think we need to recognise that although the job is far from done positive progress is now being made and at the right time and the impact on the interests of club's supporters are being very closely considered.

 

Hopefully, the barrell is well and truly scraped but I'll leave the negative extremists to put a hole in it.

 

1. LC and Salz also had the backing of the banks. The "gross mismanagement" was caused by men Wilde put in the place, the one who Lowe has snuggled up with. The financial mess we are in is down to relegation from the Premier League (under Lowe's chairmanship with his 3 different managers in a season) and overspending by the executives Wilde appointed. Those two are responsible.

 

2. The only reason Lowe had to use a plan B was because his plan A failed spectacularly. His plan B would have been LC's plan A (only with Pearson in charge rather than Wotte).

 

3. "the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration". Do you think you achieve that by doing everything in your power to drive away supporters???? Crowds have been down to 14k for most of the season, and that is because they will not pay money to watch kids playing rubbish 'propaganda' football.

 

Simply reducing costs is NOT the answer to getting the club out of the financial mess it is in. He has NOT "turned around" anything. He has made things worse

[St Landrew]

1. LC and Salz also had the backing of the banks. The "gross mismanagement" was caused by men Wilde put in the place, the one who Lowe has snuggled up with. The financial mess we are in is down to relegation from the Premier League (under Lowe's chairmanship with his 3 different managers in a season) and overspending by the executives Wilde appointed. Those two are responsible.

 

2. The only reason Lowe had to use a plan B was because his plan A failed spectacularly. His plan B would have been LC's plan A (only with Pearson in charge rather than Wotte).

 

3. "the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration". Do you think you achieve that by doing everything in your power to drive away supporters???? Crowds have been down to 14k for most of the season, and that is because they will not pay money to watch kids playing rubbish 'propaganda' football.

 

Simply reducing costs is NOT the answer to getting the club out of the financial mess it is in. He has NOT "turned around" anything. He has made things worse

 

Covers everything.

[um pahars]

1. LC and Salz also had the backing of the banks. The "gross mismanagement" was caused by men Wilde put in the place, the one who Lowe has snuggled up with. The financial mess we are in is down to relegation from the Premier League (under Lowe's chairmanship with his 3 different managers in a season) and overspending by the executives Wilde appointed. Those two are responsible.

 

2. The only reason Lowe had to use a plan B was because his plan A failed spectacularly. His plan B would have been LC's plan A (only with Pearson in charge rather than Wotte).

 

3. "the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration". Do you think you achieve that by doing everything in your power to drive away supporters???? Crowds have been down to 14k for most of the season, and that is because they will not pay money to watch kids playing rubbish 'propaganda' football.

 

Simply reducing costs is NOT the answer to getting the club out of the financial mess it is in. He has NOT "turned around" anything. He has made things worse

 

Some very, very salient points there.

[derry]

Whilst we played predominately the young players and that side of the experiment continued, we stopped the total football experiment probably after the Blackpool game, certainly after the QPR game.

 

We were from then just an inexperienced side playing British reserve team football with no width and one up front against CCC first teams.

 

The total football was good but we never gave it a real chance, a few defeats and it was dumped.

[glkdcdes]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

NO!

[docker-p]

Remember last season? Expensive & experienced players = relegation dog-fight

 

And this season, cheap inexperienced players = almost certain relegation if the experiement hadn't been abandoned.

[glkdcdes]

NO!

 

NO!........... sorry i mean YES!

[sidthesquid]

And this season, cheap inexperienced players = almost certain relegation if the experiement hadn't been abandoned.

 

Maybe, but the point I was making was that everyone is rewriting history a bit and saying what we all ever needed were the experienced pros & last season was proof that there is more to it than that

[ottery st mary]

The man has no clue. His fellow Directors of The Lavender Hill Mob have no clue.

The Lowey Chorus girls on here have no clue.

Wottey is now starting to listen to reason and hopefully it is not too late.

 

Saints keep fighting but still worried too little too late.

 

COYR

[um pahars]

Maybe, but the point I was making was that everyone is rewriting history a bit and saying what we all ever needed were the experienced pros & last season was proof that there is more to it than that

 

I think the rewriting of history is by those who are now trying to claim the Poortvliet experience wasn't that bad and was showing signs of improvement!!!!

 

As for your last part, I don't think anyone is claiming all you need is experienced pros, as most know it is more to it than that, not least having a manager more suited to Saints than Salisbury!!!!

[dubai_phil]

On what basis can you come to that conclusion? Is Lowe a super successful business man? Evidence? My view of Lowe is that as a buisness man he is a spectacular failure, evidence the share price and the alienation of customers. He was actually the 2nd worst choice available, better only the by the business brain that is Mike Wilde. There are alternative ways to be successful in business than just to cut costs (though that has to be done). Alienating your customers is one of the most prominent signs of a business man who will be a complete failure becuase customers are what count. Fortnately since MW2 (Wotte) has apparently started to turn things around by abandoning RL's mad experiment, the customers have started to return (18k+ yesterday) demonstrating clearly once again that winning at home and giving your all is the key to success, not making pathetic experiments with youngsters playing formations that are completely foreign to them.

 

Rupert Lowe - good business man. My arse.

 

That is specifically NOT what I wrote my friend.

 

Out of Crouch, Wilde & Lowe - who WERE the only choice we had, I said that I think that Lowe was the only one who could keep the BUSINESS going. You must be a journalist to so twist THAT DIG at Lowe to believe I was even SUGGESTING that Lowe was a good businessman.

 

HOWEVER, I also clearly stated that we are a FOOTBALL CLUB and IMHO Lowe is NOT up to the running of that. I thought THAT was pretty clear by my saying at BEST he could be our accountant......

 

You should at least be aware that I have repeately preached that I hope he and the other two all go BACK to those business careers VERY damned soon as not ONE of them is free of blame for this godawful mess we are in

 

Accusing me of saying Lowe is a good businessman is like me accusing you of being a good reader.

 

Strewth take a chill pill, I was giving Lowe STICK ffs

[Legod Third Coming]

I think the rewriting of history is by those who are now trying to claim the Poortvliet experience wasn't that bad and was showing signs of improvement!!!!

 

As for your last part, I don't think anyone is claiming all you need is experienced pros, as most know it is more to it than that, not least having a manager more suited to Saints than Salisbury!!!!

 

 

I think Steve that this is what most of the moderates are saying and not as claimed.

 

The pros last year looked jaded under Burley and D&G, but under Pearson suddenly found a new appetite for the game, even if he was trying to right a listing ship.

 

To then jettison them as Lowe and Poortvliet did - trying to force them out of the club - was a mistake of massive proportions and one that I maintain will probably still result in our relegation.

 

It's tantamount to criminal negligence and at best was hopelessly misguided.

[stthrobber]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

The bottom line for me is this:

 

In recent seasons our academy produced Walcott and then a season or so later, Bale. Both were sold as their profiles were raised, but the point was they were single products of the academy of their respective years.

 

This season, Lowe was expecting virtually the entire team to be made up from the academy and as we all know, we are lucky if 1 in 10 players from the academy ever actually make the grade at our level or above.

 

Therefore I would say a hearty no in response to your question. He was way off the mark and it's only since Wotte appears to have brought back experience that our performances have improved.

 

Academy players are not physically, nor mentally strong enought to play 46 games a season at our level and we all know it, but some people think they know better.

[sidthesquid]

I think the rewriting of history is by those who are now trying to claim the Poortvliet experience wasn't that bad and was showing signs of improvement!!!!

 

As for your last part, I don't think anyone is claiming all you need is experienced pros, as most know it is more to it than that, not least having a manager more suited to Saints than Salisbury!!!!

 

I'm not trying to rewrite history, merely saying that some good may yet come of the Poortvliet experiment & trying to remind people of the context where the experiment came about

[Legod Third Coming]

I'm not trying to rewrite history, merely saying that some good may yet come of the Poortvliet experiment & trying to remind people of the context where the experiment came about

 

Several youth players have had their careers put back.

 

Several older players wasted half a season being paid to play X-box.

 

We spunked money on more bad loans than Fred Goodwin.

 

We will probably end up in league One.

 

But yes, there were positives from the Poortvliet fiasco - remind me what they were again??

[sidthesquid]

I think Steve that this is what most of the moderates are saying and not as claimed.

 

The pros last year looked jaded under Burley and D&G, but under Pearson suddenly found a new appetite for the game, even if he was trying to right a listing ship.

 

To then jettison them as Lowe and Poortvliet did - trying to force them out of the club - was a mistake of massive proportions and one that I maintain will probably still result in our relegation.

 

It's tantamount to criminal negligence and at best was hopelessly misguided.

 

They needed to go. We still only won 3 in 13 games under Pearson. What we should have done is replaced them with better players, but (partly) because of their ludicrously large salaries we were not able to change things as much as certainly I wanted.

I know I am in danger of sounding pro-Lowe here, but I watched every home last season & it was awful. At least this season I have enjoyed seeing lads like James & Gillettt & Lallana slowly start to be moulded into decent players. There wasn't any pleasure in seeing the pedestrian shte served up by Wright & Safri & Euell (it's true) etc as they went through the motions for their big pay-cheques.

I think the experiment failed, but don't forget just how dreadful is was before

[Legod Third Coming]

They needed to go. We still only won 3 in 13 games under Pearson. What we should have done is replaced them with better players, but (partly) because of their ludicrously large salaries we were not able to change things as much as certainly I wanted.

I know I am in danger of sounding pro-Lowe here, but I watched every home last season & it was awful. At least this season I have enjoyed seeing lads like James & Gillettt & Lallana slowly start to be moulded into decent players. There wasn't any pleasure in seeing the pedestrian shte served up by Wright & Safri & Euell (it's true) etc as they went through the motions for their big pay-cheques.

I think the experiment failed, but don't forget just how dreadful is was before

 

 

With all due respect, Wright under Pearson was a different player. That's the point. As for Euell - did we really ever see the best of a fit Euell? As for Stern John, he kept us up.

 

I agree that seeing some of the young lads has been a real pleasure.

 

But not seeing them go from confident to demoralised hasn't.

 

Thank God we realised, but probably too late.

[sidthesquid]

Several youth players have had their careers put back.

 

Several older players wasted half a season being paid to play X-box.

 

We spunked money on more bad loans than Fred Goodwin.

 

We will probably end up in league One.

 

But yes, there were positives from the Poortvliet fiasco - remind me what they were again??

 

1 They will come back stronger for the experience

2 Those older players look keen & hungry again (refer back to last season if in doubt)

3 I doubt the loans cost us anything

4 We might, but we might not

We have some good young pros who have taken their chance with more to follow. Oh, and we might not go bankrupt

&5 believe it or not I have enjoyed this season's madness more than the dire garbage served up last season

[ottery st mary]

The belief around the coaching staff and the team and hopefully amongst the fans is that Rupert has seen or been told to leave the football to the football coaching staff.

 

Why did he not listen to sense last August.

 

Many youngsters were thrust into the first team two years before their time. It might work 1 in 20 or 30. This was no experiment this was clearly suicidal and some sort of self indulgence. At least some fellow Directors now see Rupoert for what he is..

 

By the way it is not as a financial expert either..

[Mole]

That's not what you were saying when you slipped back in to your old Sundance mode yesterday;).

 

You need to decide whether you're going to come in here and be Sundance and get all uppity, aggressive and idiotic, or whether you're going to try and enter into a worthy debate.

 

It's pretty difficult trying to understand just exactly where you're coming from with all these mood swings of yours.

 

Pot and Kettles comes to mind. No-one, and i mean no-one get's as rattled as you.

[Nineteen Canteen]

1. LC and Salz also had the backing of the banks. The "gross mismanagement" was caused by men Wilde put in the place, the one who Lowe has snuggled up with. The financial mess we are in is down to relegation from the Premier League (under Lowe's chairmanship with his 3 different managers in a season) and overspending by the executives Wilde appointed. Those two are responsible.

 

2. The only reason Lowe had to use a plan B was because his plan A failed spectacularly. His plan B would have been LC's plan A (only with Pearson in charge rather than Wotte).

 

3. "the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration". Do you think you achieve that by doing everything in your power to drive away supporters???? Crowds have been down to 14k for most of the season, and that is because they will not pay money to watch kids playing rubbish 'propaganda' football.

 

Simply reducing costs is NOT the answer to getting the club out of the financial mess it is in. He has NOT "turned around" anything. He has made things worse

 

I think you'll find attendances dropped more under Crouch's watch and that the average attendance this season is just shy of 17k not far short of the break even point but i agree we could do with some fans who don't attend matches simply because of who is wearing the suit in the boardroom.

 

Interesting you say Salz and LC had the backing of banks but the first half of 2008 was a very different beast to the second half post Bear Stearns and Lehman's bank collapses and then the evident contagion into our own banking industry. At the start of 2008 it was still possible to buy a flat with a mortgage for a £100k on a salary of £20k so I'm fairly sure Crouch and Salz would have got the support of the bank but once the cat was out of the bag and it became apparent we were in an even less good position than the home buyer wanting a mortgage 5x salary not to mention a LTV of 95% and we wanted unsecured funding to boot, well you do the maths.

 

Your facts are wrong about attendances and the one thing you have failed to grasp is the big picture football clubs now operate in. Lowe has made the necessary sea change but unfortunately our attendances still remain below the ideal as they did under Crouch and the reason for this is that the fans expectations are still stuck in 2003 and have taken no account that people for whatever reason do not want to invest in the club at a fair price. Why, I have no idea? (in tribute to the greatest exponent of the rolling eyes)

 

There are some interesting parallels between us and Charlton and lot of the problems were instigated by unnecessary fan unrest that upset the stability of both clubs. Charlton fans unhappy with Curbishley's lack of ambition ! Saints fans with their unrealistic expectations with regard to permanency in the Premier League and refusal to support Lowe's financially prudent medium term plan to return to the Premiership without impersonating a YO-YO. We went for the promise as always and then latched on to Crouch's promises and laughable, currying favour with the fans and without foundation rhetoric.

 

Given the circumstances IMO Lowe is doing a great job and one where the rules of engagement change on a daily basis I should imagine. Regrettably, Crouch has already proven elsewhere that he is not impervious to recession and credit crunches. Anyone can sell water in the desert but when the taps run dry then you have a problem.

 

Perhaps its time we drop the prejudice towards Lowe and assess his performance in todays world and not at the dawning of the Blair years. Trousers asks a very pertinent question and one that in a considered final analysis you can only conclude Lowe does deserve credit for his role this season, whether he was right will be in the long term survival of this club but things are beginning to improve although the off field risks are the real threat.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Some very, very salient points there.

 

Factually incorrect points and the rest taken out of context of today's environment. BTW where is Salz now? May as well compare how successful Lowe was in 2002-03 with Crouch's tenure.

[Wes Tender]

1. LC and Salz also had the backing of the banks. The "gross mismanagement" was caused by men Wilde put in the place, the one who Lowe has snuggled up with. The financial mess we are in is down to relegation from the Premier League (under Lowe's chairmanship with his 3 different managers in a season) and overspending by the executives Wilde appointed. Those two are responsible.

 

2. The only reason Lowe had to use a plan B was because his plan A failed spectacularly. His plan B would have been LC's plan A (only with Pearson in charge rather than Wotte).

 

3. "the main priority has been to survive and avoid administration". Do you think you achieve that by doing everything in your power to drive away supporters???? Crowds have been down to 14k for most of the season, and that is because they will not pay money to watch kids playing rubbish 'propaganda' football.

 

Simply reducing costs is NOT the answer to getting the club out of the financial mess it is in. He has NOT "turned around" anything. He has made things worse

 

Totally on the money. I'm frankly amazed that there are some who can even now attempt to rewrite history, dismissing the past few months of lunacy just because there are some signs of hope when the hapless Poortvliet is replaced by his number two, who gains a measure of success implementing measures that the sensible half of posters on here had advocated at the start of the season.

 

Do those who disingenuously call this current common sense approach "plan B" admit that Lowe's bizarre "plan A" was a dismal failure? Have we heard one peep from Lowe showing an ounce of humility, apologising for his lunacy?

 

At least having left it until the 11th hour, we must be thankful that he finally dismissed Poortvliet and although Wotte appeared to be an even bigger gamble, the fact that he plays a more traditional British formation, has the sense to blend youth and experience and seemingly has improved the attitude, belief and fitness of the team, is testament enough that the Dutch total football experiment that was touted as the exciting revolution, is now dead and buried.

 

Hopefully it has come with just enough time for us not to be dead and buried with it.

[dubai_phil]

I think you'll find attendances dropped more under Crouch's watch and that the average attendance this season is just shy of 17k not far short of the break even point but i agree we could do with some fans who don't attend matches simply because of who is wearing the suit in the boardroom.

 

Interesting you say Salz and LC had the backing of banks but the first half of 2008 was a very different beast to the second half post Bear Stearns and Lehman's bank collapses and then the evident contagion into our own banking industry. At the start of 2008 it was still possible to buy a flat with a mortgage for a £100k on a salary of £20k so I'm fairly sure Crouch and Salz would have got the support of the bank but once the cat was out of the bag and it became apparent we were in an even less good position than the home buyer wanting a mortgage 5x salary not to mention a LTV of 95% and we wanted unsecured funding to boot, well you do the maths.

 

Your facts are wrong about attendances and the one thing you have failed to grasp is the big picture football clubs now operate in. Lowe has made the necessary sea change but unfortunately our attendances still remain below the ideal as they did under Crouch and the reason for this is that the fans expectations are still stuck in 2003 and have taken no account that people for whatever reason do not want to invest in the club at a fair price. Why, I have no idea? (in tribute to the greatest exponent of the rolling eyes)

 

There are some interesting parallels between us and Charlton and lot of the problems were instigated by unnecessary fan unrest that upset the stability of both clubs. Charlton fans unhappy with Curbishley's lack of ambition ! Saints fans with their unrealistic expectations with regard to permanency in the Premier League and refusal to support Lowe's financially prudent medium term plan to return to the Premiership without impersonating a YO-YO. We went for the promise as always and then latched on to Crouch's promises and laughable, currying favour with the fans and without foundation rhetoric.

 

Given the circumstances IMO Lowe is doing a great job and one where the rules of engagement change on a daily basis I should imagine. Regrettably, Crouch has already proven elsewhere that he is not impervious to recession and credit crunches. Anyone can sell water in the desert but when the taps run dry then you have a problem.

 

Perhaps its time we drop the prejudice towards Lowe and assess his performance in todays world and not at the dawning of the Blair years. Trousers asks a very pertinent question and one that in a considered final analysis you can only conclude Lowe does deserve credit for his role this season, whether he was right will be in the long term survival of this club but things are beginning to improve although the off field risks are the real threat.

 

Not unfair overall but you have shot yourself in the foot badly by forgetting to add one other name in the middle. That is your downfall in the debate as you will get pinged by all and sundry on it.

 

The world is now very different from the start of the season, that's obvious to all but my soon to be ex wife.

 

The PROBLEM is that the idiocacy of the total football "experiment" undermines ANY argument that re-building the club to be able to survive financially was possibly a success for Lowe.

 

IF we survive financially (or even IF Lowe keeps us going long enough for somebody to take a punt and buy us) then I understand (but don't agree) that you can argue that it COULD have been regarded as a success.

 

But then that would be the work you'd expect from a financial person or an accountant.

 

It was his role as Chairman and the "EXPERIMENT" which was too big a gamble to take in an uncertain world. And it is on that point that he will be forever damned.

 

At the end of the day, let's face it Lowe came in and shut up (thank heavens).

Perhaps in hindsight he probably wishes he'd kept his mouth (and Wilde's) shut when he tried to sell the JP & kids idea. He didn't, he oversold it and woosh we are where we are today, so even though you put a good case, Lowe made his own noose on this one

[um pahars]

I think you'll find attendances dropped more under Crouch's watch and that the average attendance this season is just shy of 17k not far short of the break even point

 

Average attendance for the 11 games prior to Crouch's reappointment in Dec 2007

 

20,585

 

 

Average attendance for the 12 games under Crouch from Dec 2007 to May 2008

 

21867

 

 

 

If you're going to make such claims, then at least check they stand up to scrutiny.

[dubai_phil]

Average attendance for the 11 games prior to Crouch's reappointment in Dec 2007

 

20,585

 

 

Average attendance for the 12 games under Crouch from Dec 2007 to May 2008

 

21867

 

 

 

If you're going to make such claims, then at least check they stand up to scrutiny.

 

Good stat but remember the final game WAS a full house due to the circumstances, as you have it to hand what was the figure excluding the last game. (Avoids an excel war which I hate)

 

:smt048:cool:

[um pahars]

Good stat but remember the final game WAS a full house due to the circumstances, as you have it to hand what was the figure excluding the last game. (Avoids an excel war which I hate)

 

:smt048:cool:

 

Still went up under Crouch;) (and that's even if I let you knock the Sheff Utd game off!!!! but then you could ask to knock the opening game off from the other side as that was a big gate).

 

It's an average and that's what averages are all about, and Sundance's/Canteen's claim that attendances went down under Crouch does not stand up to scrutiny (much like most of the other stuff he comes out with as well;)).

[Whitey Grandad]

They needed to go. We still only won 3 in 13 games under Pearson. What we should have done is replaced them with better players, but (partly) because of their ludicrously large salaries we were not able to change things as much as certainly I wanted.

I know I am in danger of sounding pro-Lowe here, but I watched every home last season & it was awful. At least this season I have enjoyed seeing lads like James & Gillettt & Lallana slowly start to be moulded into decent players. There wasn't any pleasure in seeing the pedestrian shte served up by Wright & Safri & Euell (it's true) etc as they went through the motions for their big pay-cheques.

I think the experiment failed, but don't forget just how dreadful is was before

Give me last season over this one any day.

[dubai_phil]

Still went up under Crouch;) (and that's even if I let you knock the Sheff Utd game off!!!! but then you could ask to knock the opening game off from the other side as that was a big gate).

 

It's an average and that's what averages are all about, and Sundance's/Canteen's claim that attendances went down under Crouch does not stand up to scrutiny (much like most of the other stuff he comes out with as well;)).

 

:roll:

 

I did a similar analysis a while ago so I did know the answer, just didn't want to leave a get out clause in there.

[Whitey Grandad]

Perhaps its time we drop the prejudice towards Lowe and assess his performance in todays world and not at the dawning of the Blair years. Trousers asks a very pertinent question and one that in a considered final analysis you can only conclude Lowe does deserve credit for his role this season, whether he was right will be in the long term survival of this club but things are beginning to improve although the off field risks are the real threat.

We're not prejudiced. There are perfectly valid reasons why we don't think that he's a very good chairman.

[sidthesquid]

Give me last season over this one any day.

 

Really? I was more demoralised last season by a mile watching those old lags going through the motions than at any time in nearly 40 years of watching the Saints. The first time ever I seriously considered not renewing my ST.

I admit I bought into the Dutch revolution & I am sorry that it has failed but I have still enjoyed it. Another season of waiting to see if Jermaine crossed the halfway line or Safri passed it forwards or Powell headed it anywhere but up in the air & I really would have called it quits. Last season is tainted by the memory of the last day, but prior to that it was horrible

[Whitey Grandad]

Really? I was more demoralised last season by a mile watching those old lags going through the motions than at any time in nearly 40 years of watching the Saints. The first time ever I seriously considered not renewing my ST.

I admit I bought into the Dutch revolution & I am sorry that it has failed but I have still enjoyed it. Another season of waiting to see if Jermaine crossed the halfway line or Safri passed it forwards or Powell headed it anywhere but up in the air & I really would have called it quits. Last season is tainted by the memory of the last day, but prior to that it was horrible

Yes, really! I remember many more good performances (and wins) from last season than from this. I have never seen such ponderous crabby football as I have witnessed in the first half of this season. But that's just my opinion...

[eurosaint]

I think you'll find attendances dropped more under Crouch's watch and that the average attendance this season is just shy of 17k not far short of the break even point but i agree we could do with some fans who don't attend matches simply because of who is wearing the suit in the boardroom.

 

Interesting you say Salz and LC had the backing of banks but the first half of 2008 was a very different beast to the second half post Bear Stearns and Lehman's bank collapses and then the evident contagion into our own banking industry. At the start of 2008 it was still possible to buy a flat with a mortgage for a £100k on a salary of £20k so I'm fairly sure Crouch and Salz would have got the support of the bank but once the cat was out of the bag and it became apparent we were in an even less good position than the home buyer wanting a mortgage 5x salary not to mention a LTV of 95% and we wanted unsecured funding to boot, well you do the maths.

 

Your facts are wrong about attendances and the one thing you have failed to grasp is the big picture football clubs now operate in. Lowe has made the necessary sea change but unfortunately our attendances still remain below the ideal as they did under Crouch and the reason for this is that the fans expectations are still stuck in 2003 and have taken no account that people for whatever reason do not want to invest in the club at a fair price. Why, I have no idea? (in tribute to the greatest exponent of the rolling eyes)

 

There are some interesting parallels between us and Charlton and lot of the problems were instigated by unnecessary fan unrest that upset the stability of both clubs. Charlton fans unhappy with Curbishley's lack of ambition ! Saints fans with their unrealistic expectations with regard to permanency in the Premier League and refusal to support Lowe's financially prudent medium term plan to return to the Premiership without impersonating a YO-YO. We went for the promise as always and then latched on to Crouch's promises and laughable, currying favour with the fans and without foundation rhetoric.

 

Given the circumstances IMO Lowe is doing a great job and one where the rules of engagement change on a daily basis I should imagine. Regrettably, Crouch has already proven elsewhere that he is not impervious to recession and credit crunches. Anyone can sell water in the desert but when the taps run dry then you have a problem.

 

Perhaps its time we drop the prejudice towards Lowe and assess his performance in todays world and not at the dawning of the Blair years. Trousers asks a very pertinent question and one that in a considered final analysis you can only conclude Lowe does deserve credit for his role this season, whether he was right will be in the long term survival of this club but things are beginning to improve although the off field risks are the real threat.

 

Please excuse me while I pick the diced carrots from my keyboard !!!

[sidthesquid]

Yes, really! I remember many more good performances (and wins) from last season than from this. I have never seen such ponderous crabby football as I have witnessed in the first half of this season. But that's just my opinion...

 

It's funny old game - ponderous & crabby sum up my memories of last season pretty accurately. I guess we'll have to agree to differ on this one

[um pahars]

but I have still enjoyed it.

 

In which case you must be a masochist!!!!

 

One win at home and some truly terrible performances, including losing regularly to our relegation rivals was not enjoyable to me.

 

Of the 14 or so home games, I reckon I walked out happy three times.

[eurosaint]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

Dear Trousers,

Please stick to the caption competitions cos when it comes to the more serious threads you are just 'pants' !

All IMHO you understand !

[Micky]

Whilst I accept that the 'Total Young Guns Football' experiment was an unmitigated disaster, I cannot but help think back to pre-season when many on here appeared to be in favour of it. Not only were people saying that we were going to survive in the league, but the lads could even be looking at a play off position.

 

Was that you - and are you now all posting in hindsight?

[sidthesquid]

In which case you must be a masochist!!!!

 

One win at home and some truly terrible performances, including losing regularly to our relegation rivals was not enjoyable to me.

 

Of the 14 or so home games, I reckon I walked out happy three times.

 

I maybe, but I honestly have enjoyed some of it. I always knew it would be a rollercoaster ride & it is true that some games were awful (Watford, Doncaster & Forest spring to mind) but our fightback against Wolves, the Reading game & one or two others were good, too. What I like & hoped for was that some of our young lads would come good & slowly they are. Last year it just felt worse and worse each week & only that reality-obscuring last day saved us from consigning last season to the worst ever

[docker-p]

Really? I was more demoralised last season by a mile watching those old lags going through the motions than at any time in nearly 40 years of watching the Saints. The first time ever I seriously considered not renewing my ST.

 

Thank god those old lags were eventually allowed to return and help save the day eh?

 

I think you will also find approx 12,000 previous season ticket holders have decided not to renew their tickets as a result of Lowes hair brained ideas over the years, glad to hear you have persevered though. Together will shall overcome.