Wotte is the new version of Pearson...

[Frank's cousin]

I will hold my hands up and say i was not happy about the appointment of Wotte. Replacing the old guy who failed with the coach below him rarely ever works. I think what is important is that most people thought he would continue on in the dutch system Lowe had installed. If he had i don't think we would be seeing threads like these. He changed the system and changed back to an English system, one which works.

 

I don't like the way the guy talks, don't like his chummyness with the board etc but what matters most to me is the results on the pitch. And he is getting the results. We have just won 3 games against 3 very good teams. Granted they all played **** but we didn't let them have the chance to play, that is important.

 

Wotte deserves a huge amount of credit. When he was appointed i never had a go at him, never said anything bad. I said he is our manager and we should now support him. I think a lot of people felt the same. He wasen't our choice but at least give him the same chance we gave people before him. He is doing all the right things on the pitch even if he isn't off it, but thats ok, i would rather it is the way it is then the other way round.

 

But as much as he deserves praise i think we have to think on the side of caution. We are still 3 points in the drop zone (due to GD) and we have a very hard run in of games with Birmingham,Derby and QPR. Three wins can easily turn into three defeats such is the nature of this league. If that happens no doubt people will swing back the other way but they shouldn't. Truth is we are in trouble, we are the ones having to win games to get out of the position we are in, we have a long way to go. If we can get a few more results under our belt we will be in with a huge chance to stay up. The faith has returned to the club, the results and performances are the reason for it. As long as the results continue we will continue to be happy.

 

So i will wait until the end of the season before i judge Wotte, he has my full support until then win or lose. If he keeps us up he deserves the job and all the praise in the world. If he doesn't and we go on a bad run then a lot of people proclaiming the second coming will look very silly. And if there is one thing i have learnt through the many years of being a Saints fan is that to assume anything will always cost you in the end.

 

Thats fair enough - and ultimately its not about his record of points v Pearson etc (although there will be many stattos using this come what may) but do we stay up or do we go down?

 

I think its going to be even tighter this year because the others are also putting runs together - 5 more wins from 11 games may not even be enough which would have meant 8 in 14 which is playoff form! - We will see - Wotte could still end up with one of the best win ratios of any manager we have had and still see us relegated! What do we say then about him and what we should do next season?

[Window Cleaner]

T

 

I think its going to be even tighter this year because the others are also putting runs together - 5 more wins from 11 games may not even be enough ?

 

 

I'm not sure that that's quite right actually. Because of the make up of the matches I'm pretty sure that 5 more wins would do it even mathematically.

To work that out you'd have to make a probability work sheet and plot all the possible results between teams on say 40 or less points now.

like this weekend, if Blackpool win then Norwich can't so one of them can't move up, if they draw it helps neither of them particularly.Next Tuesday it's Watford and Forest and then on Saturday Norwich and Plymouth and Blackpool and Barnsley.

[Frank's cousin]

4 wins a nd a draw (50 points) will that be enough?

[JohnnyFartPants]

4 wins a nd a draw (50 points) will that be enough?

 

I think the answers are all in Blackpool. How many more points do you think they will pick up?

[NickG]

No he isn't ,Wotte knows that winning matches is what's required not getting draws. If we'd gone for the draw against Sheffield Utd we'd have probably have got it.

Wotte 11 points from 7 games

Pearson (not counting Plymouth) 16 points from 14 games.

 

Mind you we weren't as low down when Pearson started, a few draws saw us slide away.

Pearson did OK, but with his record against Wotte's we'd be virtually relegated by now.

 

Are those figures right? I know NP had some draws and bad defeats but thought it was better return than that??

 

If so makes 11 points from 7, from a team deep in relegation zone rather than lower midtable look pretty good.

 

Not sure if its elsewhere but bit in sun on his advice to players today.

[Window Cleaner]

Are those figures right? I know NP had some draws and bad defeats but thought it was better return than that??

 

If so makes 11 points from 7, from a team deep in relegation zone rather than lower midtable look pretty good.

 

Not sure if its elsewhere but bit in sun on his advice to players today.

 

NP was nothing out of the ordinary although he did keep us up on the last day.

His side drew an awful lot of matches 7 of 13, lost 3 and won 3

So in fact he got 16 points from 13 games if you don't count Plymouth.

[OldNick]

NP was nothing out of the ordinary although he did keep us up on the last day.

His side drew an awful lot of matches 7 of 13, lost 3 and won 3

So in fact he got 16 points from 13 games if you don't count Plymouth.

he was the saviour 'look i have found his shoe, the Holy shoe.' Life of Brian tm

[um pahars]

Rather a lot of twaddle and a tad defensive if you ask me ;-) (although arrogance also springs to mind)

 

It needs to be read in context Frank.

 

The context being one idiot suggesting myself (and others) were gutted because we had won, and another idiot suggesting I should eat humble pie for all the wrong reasons (actually for no reason really)

 

If you read the two initial idiotic posts, it then actually comes over as rather restrained;)

[um pahars]

Quite, FC.

 

Um Pahars is still banging the drum about the false economy of loaning Saga to Aalborg when he hasn't produced a shred of evidence to suggest that the decision wasn't taken under serious pressure from Barclays. ...

 

Not just false economies though Torres, there's also the question of priorities and alternatives.

 

For instance Schneiderlin's fees would probably have covered a decent strikers wages for a season. The money spent on the scattergun approach to signings and loanees (and the associated costs) who never really featured could also have contributed to funding players who would have featured and contributed.

 

Then of course moving on to the manager, then maybe the get out fee for Helmond and his pay off could have covered any deficit from what Pearson wanted (and what Wotte has shown is that a good/different/brilliant/hero manager - delete as applicable - can make a massive difference to basically the same squad of players).

 

And that's even before we get on to false economies with ragrds Saga. Of course it's all hypothetical with no firm evidence (this is a message board for opinions after all), but the question remains, would Saga's goals equated to more wins, more points and more bums on seats???

 

Given each 1,000 bums are worth circa £500,000, then it's not a huge leap of faith to suggest that we could have offset any additional costs (or income) by winning on the pitch and getting people to turn up. A n upward spiral of success, as opposed to a downward cycle of despondency.

[Torres]

Not just false economies though Torres, there's also the question of priorities and alternatives.

 

No answers to my questions then?

 

For instance Schneiderlin's fees would probably have covered a decent strikers wages for a season.

 

What are Scheiderlin's fees? What amount would cover a "decent striker's wages for a season?

 

. The money spent on the scattergun approach to signings and loanees (and the associated costs) who never really featured could also have contributed to funding players who would have featured and contributed.

 

How much has been spent on "the scattergun approached to signings and loanees"? Who made the decisions on the bringing these players in?

 

Then of course moving on to the manager, then maybe the get out fee for Helmond and his pay off could have covered any deficit from what Pearson wanted (and what Wotte has shown is that a good/different/brilliant/hero manager - delete as applicable - can make a massive difference to basically the same squad of players).

 

Maybe, if, could have, might have, possibly, probably..... I'm not seeing any numbers here....

 

And that's even before we get on to false economies with ragrds Saga. Of course it's all hypothetical with no firm evidence (this is a message board for opinions after all), but the question remains, would Saga's goals equated to more wins, more points and more bums on seats???

 

The other questions are, who decided to ship Saga off? How much pressure was there from Barclays to do so? How much did we get from Aalborg? Did Barclays have us over a barrel? Would they have pulled the rug from under us if we hadn't?

 

If you don't know the answers, you can be a man, you can admit it. Just tell us that you're full of conjecture and bluster and we'll all move on.

[um pahars]

If you don't know the answers, you can be a man, you can admit it. Just tell us that you're full of conjecture and bluster and we'll all move on.

 

I can only presume you couldn't read the part that said:

 

"Of course it's all hypothetical with no firm evidence (this is a message board for opinions after all),"

 

If you're expecting every opinion, piece of conjecture or way of thinking to be supported by firm numbers then I'm afraid you've come to the wrong place. This is a message board where people can discuss potential alterntives without having to go into detailed cashflows LOL.

 

If you're not open minded enough to realise that there were alternatines to the strategy we undertook, then you probably could do with taking a step back and having a reasoned think about it.

 

I have no doubt that we were under incredible financial pressures at the start of the season, and I also accept thay the majority of the decisions undertaken were done for what was believed to be the right reasons, but we could have done things differently.

 

Two simple examples.

 

One would have been not to appoint Poortvliet. We could easily have kept Pearson (or being progressive we could even have appointed Wotte to the hotseat!!!). I don't really see that decision as being particularly financially driven. I'm sure Pearson was on more than Poortvliet, but not so much that it would tip the balance. You really should not be scrimping on arguably the most important person at the Club (we got what we deserved when we wnet that way).

 

The second was the money spent on Schneiderlin and the priorities at the time. What the exact sums involved are indeed unknown, but it probably wouldn't be way off the mark to think we have parted with half of the £1.2m quoted. Throw in £3k a week and we're up to maybe £750,000 for the season (BTW I'm just estimating here if that's OK with you;)).

 

Would that £750,000 for this season cover Saga's wages, bonuses and any fee payable by Aalborg. I have no idea, but I don't think it would be a million miles away.

 

And then of course after that you have to start thinking about including any benefits from having Saga available all season with goals increasing the chances of winning, increasing the chances of bums on seats etc etc etc.

 

Now if you want to come round mine and run some financial modelling, then I would be only too happy to do some of that, but I also think it is safe to say that you can get a general vibe for things without having the full details at your disposal.

 

If you're going to insist that every opinion on here has to be costed and audited, then we will soon be back to Best 5 crisp flavours;)

[SW11_Saint]

Still giggling at Frank and SOG's ideas that those who opposed Poortvliet and the Total Revolutionary Coaching Set Up should be eating humble pie and are now gutted because Saints are winning LOL.

 

Only a slight rewrite of history boys, and only slightly ignoring the sea change that the Club has undertaken in recent games.

 

Why eat humble pie, when almost everything that you have prophecised has come to fruition?

 

Surely those who blindly believed Lowe had got it right with Poortvliet and the folly of that strategy should be the ones scoffing it, as with each win under Wotte, using a balanced side and getting the basics right, it just hammers home the crass stupidity of the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up (and before you, or Lowe, claims this was a part of the master plan :-$, it wasn't and what we are seeing now is a million miles away from the original premise).

 

How could anyone be gutted when almost everything they have been asking for has been delivered and the U turn necessary to turn this season around looks as though it may achieve it's desired affect.

 

How can I be gutted?, when:

 

We have finally given the boot to the manager who I believed was taking us down.

 

We have finally ditched the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up in favour of a more traditional set up, which was something I wanted.

 

We have ditched the Total Football in favour of much more traditional line up and formation, as I believed was necessary.

 

We have ditched the folly of going with youth in favour of a more balanced side, which was something I wanted from day one.

 

We are now making the best use of our resources and not freezing out those players who could make a difference, something else that has been mentioned numerous times.

 

And of course, finally, how could any real Saints fan be gutted when their team starts winning?

 

I'm not claiming to be some football visionary, because I was not the only one to realise that football isn't rocket science, you don't have to be revolutionary and that this season was not the time for experiments and ego driven strategies.

 

And the only reason I could even be deemed to be remotely gutted would be that I'm frustrated and concerned that we had to waste 28 games of the season pursuing one man's ridiculous vision, driven mainly by his ego, a vision that was gambling with the very future of our Club.

 

And if there's any humble pie to be eaten, it is by those who instigated and then supported the folly of Total Football by the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up.

 

Good work fellas:rolleyes::smt048:rolleyes::smt048

 

Post of the week Um, in my humble opinion.

 

Reading through this thread it still amazes me that some see Wotte's recent success as some form of vindication of Lowe's "strategy" - when it is patently the complete opposite. There is no point me re-listing the reasons for this as you've done that perfectly clearly.

 

I will however say well done to Wotte - he has implemented some simple, yet effective changes (changes most of us having been crying out for all season!), but in fairness to him has clearly got the players onside and has instilled some confidence and passion in them. I wasn't happy with his appointment as I saw it as potentially "more of the same" (and we shouldn't totally ignore the fact that he was heavily involved in the earlier 2/3's of our season!), but since his original PR gaffe, he has for the most part said and done the right things. In truth I wasn't awfully happy about Pearson's appointment at the time either, but after an initial bout of whinging (about a days worth) decided to buckle down and just support him and his efforts. I will do the same with Wotte, as all other true fans will. If he pulls it off more power to him, he will deserve all the credit due to him (as did NP who achieved the same last year).

 

If Wotte's efforts ultimately end up being fruitless, I won't blame him personally - he will have given it a fair crack from a desperate starting point (ignoring for a moment his role as JP's #2).

 

Whatever the ultimate result this year, our board still need to come under very serious scrutiny for their role in this disaster of a season. The ridiculous gamble on the new coaching setup, when we already had a more than reasonable team in situ, had us plummeting towards League 1. They are very fortunate that JP finally did the honourable thing, that they were unable to offload Saga for the rest of the season, and that Wotte has, thus far, done the right things.

 

This may get them out of jail this season (we hope!) but they won't just be judged on the final weeks of the season alone...

Edited 5 March, 2009 by SW11_Saint

[JohnnyFartPants]

Post of the week Um, in my humble opinion.

 

Reading through this thread it still amazes me that some see Wotte's recent success as some form of vindiation of Lowe's "strategy" - when it is patently the complete opposite. There is no point me re-listing the reasons for this as you've done that perfectly clearly.

 

I will however say well done to Wotte - he has implemented some simple, yet effective changes (changes most of us having been crying out for all season!), but in fairness to him has clearly got the players onside and has instilled some confidence and passion in them. I wasn't happy with his appointment as I saw it as potentially "more of the same" (and we shouldn't totally ignore the fact that he was heavily involved in the earlier 2/3's of our season!), but since his original PR gaffe, he has for the most part said and done the right things. In truth I wasn't awfully happy about Pearson's appointment at the time either, but after an initial bout of whinging (about a days worth) decided to buckle down and just support him and his efforts. I will do the same with Wotte, as all other true fans will. If he pulls it off more power to him, he will deserve all the credit due to him (as did NP who achieved the same last year).

 

If Wotte's efforts ultimately end up being fruitless, I won't blame him personally - he will have given it a fair crack from a desperate starting point (ignoring for a moment his role as JP's #2).

 

Whatever the ultimate result this year, our board still need to come under very serious scrutiny for their role in this disaster of a season. The ridiculous gamble on the new coaching setup, when we already had a more than reasonable team in situ, had us plummeting towards League 1. They are very fortunate that JP finally did the honourable thing, that they were unable to offload Saga for the rest of the season, and that Wotte has, thus far, done the right things.

 

This may get them out of jail this season (we hope!) but they won't just be judged on the final weeks of the season alone...

 

"Oh no, some totally powerless individuals are judging me", thought Rupert as he went on his way to kill some ducks.

[SW11_Saint]

"Oh no, some totally powerless individuals are judging me", thought Rupert as he went on his way to kill some ducks.

Shareholders, season-ticket holders, fans/customers, rather than "powerless individuals".

 

Most Chairman/CEO's would take their duty of care for these stakeholders seriously, but you're probably right about Lowe, given what we've experienced from him, he probably does hold us in total disdain. More fool him.

 

Quack Quack!

[JohnnyFartPants]

Shareholders, season-ticket holders, fans/customers, rather than "powerless individuals".

 

Most Chairman/CEO's would take their duty of care for these stakeholders seriously, but you're probably right about Lowe, given what we've experienced from him, he probably does hold us in total disdain. More fool him.

 

Quack Quack!

 

The point is this though. Yes, most want him out of the club....... but, yes, most really are not that political and will not hound him out or protest or anything else if we are winning. If we get to mid table, which I think we will, then next year we will have larger crowds even if the same numbers keep protesting (which they won't).

[SW11_Saint]

The point is this though. Yes, most want him out of the club....... but, yes, most really are not that political and will not hound him out or protest or anything else if we are winning. If we get to mid table, which I think we will, then next year we will have larger crowds even if the same numbers keep protesting (which they won't).

If we scrape through this year, then gates next year depend on what is being offered - a bit of ambition and the ability to move forward. I can't see that happening under Lowe, certainly not where he continues to jump into ill thought out "strategies" that have us moving backwards. His future will ultimately be decided by the shareholders - and his tenure is effectively reliant on the less than stable Wilde. I can see change happening, but let's get this season over with the deal with the problem.

 

PS shouldn't you be getting back to more pressing issues, like 'pork haslet'??

[JohnnyFartPants]

If we scrape through this year, then gates next year depend on what is being offered - a bit of ambition and the ability to move forward. I can't see that happening under Lowe, certainly not where he continues to jump into ill thought out "strategies" that have us moving backwards. His future will ultimately be decided by the shareholders - and his tenure is effectively reliant on the less than stable Wilde. I can see change happening, but let's get this season over with the deal with the problem.

 

PS shouldn't you be getting back to more pressing issues, like 'pork haslet'??

 

Whether it be pork haslet or Mr Lowe, I have a contribution to make.

[SW11_Saint]

Whether it be pork haslet or Mr Lowe, I have a contribution to make.

I'll resist the temptation for further comparison...

[JohnnyFartPants]

I'll resist the temptation for further comparison...

 

One is a pile of congealed meat with no substance to it, and the other one goes nicely in sandwiches?

[SW11_Saint]

One is a pile of congealed meat with no substance to it, and the other one goes nicely in sandwiches?

You took the words, and the haslet, out of my mouth...!