Attendance for Saturday

[saint63]

After 45 years of loyal support I can take no more. I can no longer support a hierarchy that has made mistake after mistake and has failed. Theyhave failed to notice that the club had started to be turned around at the end of last season - albeit with a few hiccups. I wonder what their business concerns are like to work for? I'd hate to work for them! Many of us are leaders in large private or public concerns and would never engage on a set of processes that totally disengage the followership -whether staff or clients/customers. You have to sign up to the vision. This lot may have a few disciples but their arrogance and inability to carry the vast majority is reckless in the extreme. They certainly know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. Good leadership will succesfully convince its followers of its strategy. Messrs Lowe and Wilde clearly have not and as such have failed. They almost seem to be happy to get us relegated in order to prove their point. I note that the board of Plymouth Argyle have told Paul Sturrock that relegation - or the threat of it will not be tolerated. Where are our leaders? They are giving a message of either acceptance of relegation or not caring. Why should us longstanding fans care more than our directors?

They have failed as they set us on a course that was ill prepared, unchartered and lacked the experience of previous knowledge of such a journey.

[um pahars]

I don't have the answers but a march to encourage supporters to come back to the club in its hour of need will be more productive than a march for Lowe out but could be equally embarrassing for him as we our saying come back fans they've screwed us big time and we are going down without you. Much more positive action, saves the club, embarrasses Lowe by highlighting his failures and gives a positive message to future investors.

 

If people say that protesting and working to remove Lowe is wishful thinking, then I have to say the idea that fans will flock to support the Club in it's hour of need is even more fanciful.

 

No one in any position of power at the Club be they Lowe, Cowen, Wilde or Wotte carry the respect nor the ability to engender a spirit of unity and togetherness.

 

In the absence of success on the pitch, which has been found to be so wanting under Lowe's Revolutionary Coaching Structure, there is nothing left at the Club to pull the supporters together as one.

 

Therefore unless there is a change, on or off the pitch, then this Club is going nowhere but down.

 

Despite this Club having been through some pretty low times in recent years, nothing could have prepared us for the abject failings we have been subjected since the return of Lowe and the implementation of his Revolutionary Coaching Set Up.

 

Without change I fear that we will just die a slow, lingering death.

[Channon's Sideburns]

You may only buy two tickets Wes but if you don't buy them thats two tickets less and if others follow the decline in revenue snowballs to a degree that yes those who have remained loyal thoughout could have their lives changed by the collapse of their club. I don't think that is dramatic how often do we read on this forum that ' I go because what else am i going to a on a Saturday' or words to that effect. On their own two tickets won't amount to much but you remain part of a bigger problem who IMO believe that the best way to make your point is to restrict the club's revenue which contradicts the term supporter.

 

I know you wont agree with that but I can't help but try to convince you otherwise and it's why put the principles quote up. With the greatest of respect but sod your principles which club do you support? I am not scaremongering, I have no Lowe orientated agenda, I just firmly believe the mechanics of administration in the current economic environment would be very very risky as to not worth contemplating and frankly I'm surprised you find it an acceptable risk and would genuinely like you to explain why you think administration won't see the club fold completely. or the risk is far smaller than I would lead you to believe.

 

Finally, on the attendance issue you will find that from our start point of just under 19k for our first home game numbers have actually held up ok with an average just under 17k. Last season we started with 25k for the first home game against Palace and by the time Crouch appointed D&G numbers had declined to around the 15k mark. The real damage was done last season IMO and this season whilst we have eroded out attendance figures further the numbers aren't as bad as the previous season or those with passionate anti-Lowe stance would have us believe.

 

I say lets keep the status quo and our enemies within until we have ridden out the recession and threat of administration but that is totally dependent on fans buying tickets on match days. If that can be acheived then when the time is right hopefully 2010 investors may view us as an attractive proposition with strong and loyal fan base upon which a business case can be backed for a takeover. I don't think that could be achieved at the moment and its why Connor Bower's march is so utterly futile and damaging only to the club and not its intended targets.

 

Anyone else think like me that this Nineteen Canteen is not the same one that has been posting recently???

 

Big change on attitude...perhaps Rupey's getting worried.

[Weston Saint]

Anyone else think like me that this Nineteen Canteen is not the same one that has been posting recently???

 

Big change on attitude...perhaps Rupey's getting worried.

Strange post this, it adds nothing to the debate. If you are suggesting Nineteen Canteen is connected to Rupert Lowe you are very wrong. If you are complimenting his new posting technique I agree with you.

[Weston Saint]

For me I align mostly with Nineteen Canteens views on this thread although I have no problem with peaceful demonstrations outside the ground to get a point of view over.

 

I can understand um pahars views and he equally makes some good points and he might be right, only time will tell.

 

I also read, with interest, Wes Tenders comments whenever he posts but what does disappoint me is when someone like him says they are staying away because of Lowe and Wilde. If they are staying away because of the awful football and lack of results I can understand and Wes may well say it is the same thing but it is not in my opinion.

[Wes Tender]

For me I align mostly with Nineteen Canteens views on this thread although I have no problem with peaceful demonstrations outside the ground to get a point of view over.

 

I can understand um pahars views and he equally makes some good points and he might be right, only time will tell.

 

I also read, with interest, Wes Tenders comments whenever he posts but what does disappoint me is when someone like him says they are staying away because of Lowe and Wilde. If they are staying away because of the awful football and lack of results I can understand and Wes may well say it is the same thing but it is not in my opinion.

 

Oh yes it is. I've just been watching Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares USA. As usual, the owner of the restaurant lets standards drop and alienates his customer base and ends up months away from going out of business. Exactly what has happened with us.

 

The end result is that because the club has been mismanaged, we the paying customers are served up poor football, poor managers, only one win at home, prices commensurate with our time in the Premiership, yet the fare we are served is at reserve or youth level. So if you cannot see that the fault lies with the two failed former chairman returning in tandem, then fine. I can.

[Wes Tender]

Strange post this, it adds nothing to the debate. If you are suggesting Nineteen Canteen is connected to Rupert Lowe you are very wrong. If you are complimenting his new posting technique I agree with you.

 

I have nothing against the well reasoned and measured way that he puts across his views. I just simply differ as to the direction we need to go in order to improve the future of the club. A forum like this is all about opinions and it wouldn't be much fun if we all agreed about everything.

[Amesbury Saint]

This season has been a disaster. I struggle to find any positives.

 

When will the directors be held to account for their failures at so many different levels?

 

I have supported the team at home matches - rarely making my disappointment known inside the ground.

 

But I agree with the demonstrators both inside and outside the ground.

 

If they do not alreday know it, its time for the directors to understand they have failed the club, the fans, the staff at SFC, and the city.

 

And given the fall in share price, the shareholders as well.

 

The directors at the club show no leadership, provide no hope and are walking disasters.

 

 

See you at the match tomorrow.

[um pahars]

I also read, with interest, Wes Tenders comments whenever he posts but what does disappoint me is when someone like him says they are staying away because of Lowe and Wilde. If they are staying away because of the awful football and lack of results I can understand and Wes may well say it is the same thing but it is not in my opinion.

 

I do think some people are staying away out of principle because of Lowe's return. I certainly know of a few and they are staying away out of principle. They're not overly enjoying it, but they are sticking to their principles. How many are this then extrapolates into is the unanswerable question.

 

And then of course as you point out, there are many who are staying away as an indirect consequence of Lowe's decisions being played out on the pitch.

[Wes Tender]

Wes, I've alwys thought your posts to be well reasoned and thought out. My take on this little plum I've taken the liberty of pulling........is that 'yes' they will ignore it, but the purpose it to rid the club of Lowe, and whilst they may ignore it, I'm equally sure there are others with power, who will not. So IMHO, they can ignore away, for they're not really the aiming point.

 

As you'll probably gather, I'm reading the thread backwards.

 

It would be wonderful to believe that other major shareholders like Askham, Richards, etc, would have a quiet word in their shell-like telling Lowe and Wilde that the game was up, but I suspect that is never going to happen. If you mean the bank, then yes, there might be some purpose to the publicity generated by these marches. But then what the bank would sit up and take most notice of would be a list of names of fans who used to be regular attendees until comparatively recently and who had decided that they have had enough and would not return until Lowe and Wilde had resigned from the board.

 

What would be really marvellous following the march to the ground, would be the continuing demonstration outside the ground of all those marchers. A rousing chorus of "we're the Northam, we're the Northam, we're the Northam over here" from outside the ground would be something to behold if half that stand were empty. If the match goes really badly, a chant of "come and join us all out here" could also work well.

[trousers]

Anyone else think like me that this Nineteen Canteen is not the same one that has been posting recently???

 

 

Yes

[um pahars]

Anyone else think like me that this Nineteen Canteen is not the same one that has been posting recently???

 

Big change on attitude...perhaps Rupey's getting worried.

 

The problem is that even the staunchest of Lowe's supporters know that there really is no way you can defend his performance since his return, hence the change in direction, the attempt to shift blame on to the supporters and the various attempts at changing the subject.

 

Even by the poor standards Lowe set for himself when he left in 2006, he has surpassed them in this current season.

 

He's a busted flush and everyone knows it.

[trousers]

Anyone else think like me that this Nineteen Canteen is not the same one that has been posting recently???

 

Big change on attitude...perhaps Rupey's getting worried.

 

So much so that he's even coughed up a fiver to join up....and to think he could have bought 33 shares with that amount....

[Nineteen Canteen]

If people say that protesting and working to remove Lowe is wishful thinking, then I have to say the idea that fans will flock to support the Club in it's hour of need is even more fanciful.

 

No one in any position of power at the Club be they Lowe, Cowen, Wilde or Wotte carry the respect nor the ability to engender a spirit of unity and togetherness.

 

In the absence of success on the pitch, which has been found to be so wanting under Lowe's Revolutionary Coaching Structure, there is nothing left at the Club to pull the supporters together as one.

 

Therefore unless there is a change, on or off the pitch, then this Club is going nowhere but down.

 

Despite this Club having been through some pretty low times in recent years, nothing could have prepared us for the abject failings we have been subjected since the return of Lowe and the implementation of his Revolutionary Coaching Set Up.

 

Without change I fear that we will just die a slow, lingering death.

 

Um I have to say when I first read your post I was disappointed you didn't even acknowledge that my idea had some mileage in it instead of writing it off as fanciful. I deleted my first response where perhaps I pressed the keys a little harder than I should!. Lowe isn't going to be forced out but he could be coerced out if the protest was depersonalised and we had a protest or a call to arms for those fans who have stopped supporting us for whatever reason. If we could get half of what we lost surely it would help our situation. Connor Bowers protest is 'Lowe out' and then what? I doubt he has even spoke to Crouch about his 'proposa'l for him. At least a march to highlight the club's plight and need for support to avoid administration is positive and with a potentially stronger and more supportive message for the media to take up.

 

Is it anymore fanciful than suggesting Lowe can be removed using the current techniques and Crouch will ride in to save the day. If there was a proposal on the table that we could support that would wipe the slate clean and install a new board with no connections to the main shareholders and current and ex directors the the march may have some bite. Otherwise they may as well march for promotion to the Premier League.

 

We agree we need change we just disagree on how to go about it. As Weston Saint says its surprising when fans chose to boycott a game/season simply because they don't like an individual. Its more surprising when fans with intelligent insight such as Wes Tender adopt this position as you would hope these are the very fans you would look to who could recognise the opportunity to seize the moral high ground and I suspect there are occassions in all our lives when we've let our principles get in the way to the detriment of others if not ourselves and other times when we've relaxed them to move on.

 

I agree the message from the club's representatives as been at best robust and worse beligerant but that does not mean we have to mirror those attitudes. In fact if we do we will go nowhere and your conclusion will bear its fruit.

 

My view that a march to raise awareness of the club's plight and get fans back initially without change but purely to save the club financially just seems a whole lot less depressing than merely campaigning for something that can only lead to more uncertainty. If we could do without the march and a double page advert in the local press then all the better.

 

I supported the implementation of the new coaching set up simply because I thought desperate times needed radical measures and I guess if it had paid off we would not be having this exchange now. One thing for sure is we can't waste energy debating over the past and I personally need something less depressing and a campaign with a more positive measureable impact otherwise your slow lingering death scenario could become a call for the crash trolley.

 

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.

 

I sincerely believe its time for a positive and perhaps unconvential change in tact and only fanciful if you don't believe that financial security of the club is at the moment far more pressing an agenda than the removal of Lowe. Help the club achieve a more secure footing with a message that we need to cover 5 years of mismanagement no director past or present during that period will come away without egg on their faces or be able to claim they turned the club around . It would be down to the supporters and how will that look post recession when the time for change will come and investors want to flex their financial muscles once again?

 

Not sure how this fits in with the attendance for Saturday and I can't help thinking we may have lost a potentialy interested audience burying our debate with Wes and Weston in this thread.

 

Just to make it relevant I think 15k for tomorrow.

Edited 21 February, 2009 by Nineteen Canteen
Message didn't come across as I wanted in places

[Nineteen Canteen]

So much so that he's even coughed up a fiver to join up....and to think he could have bought 33 shares with that amount....

 

Actually, I needed to make a call to my broker and cut some losses.

[um pahars]

If there was a proposal on the table that we could support that would wipe the slate clean and install a new board with no connections to the main shareholders and current and ex directors the the march may have some bite.

 

But that is exactly the problem.

 

None of the current cabal of shareholders have the balls nor ability to get out there and grasp the situation and run with it. So in the absence of any proactive drive from them, then maybe they need a kick up the backside to focus their minds.

 

If the first stage of a protest march doesn't get them thinking, then I think the next step will ultimately be some sort of a boycott, be it matches this season or a season ticket boycott for next year. That might start to focus their attention and soon get them to realise that maintaining the staus quo is no forward thinking strategy.

 

Just sitting here saying there is no alternative is a cop out, there are plenty of alternatives out there if only you have the balls and initiative to do something about it.

 

It would be relatively simple to reconstitue our board, install an independent CEO and a Chairman who would carry soem gravitas and respect. Other companies (and Clubs) have managed it, why are we so different?

 

To continue with a lame Board and CEO just because we don't know what is around the corner is parochial and defeatist in the extreme and is probably the worst excuse ever for standing by a failing board.

 

We agree we need change we just disagree on how to go about it.

 

I'm not really sure you do agree we need a change, because like many others, instead of really going for it, you start to put imaginary obstacles in the way, e.g. it will result in administration, what is the alternative etc etc etc.

 

In the absence of anything to support and praise Lowe for, the easiest option is to big up the worry of disposing with him. He is a mere paid CEO who are as numerous as football managers in the industry.

 

One thing for sure is we can't waste energy debating over the past and I personally need something less depressing and a campaign with a more positive measureable impact otherwise your slow lingering death scenario could become a call for the crash trolley.

 

A slow lingering death or calling for the crash trolley both end up with the same result and arguably it might be better just to get it over and done with.

 

This season has been a disgrace in so many ways and I'm surprised people have put up with it for so long. Rather than drag it out and start inflicting more misery on people, I can see the argument for getting it over and done with.

 

However, my first choice would be change with faint hope that we can manage to get us out of this predicament. Carrying on as normal will only lead to the inevitable IMHO.

 

I sincerely believe its time for a positive and perhaps unconvential change in tact and only fanciful if you don't believe that financial security of the club is at the moment far more pressing an agenda than the removal of Lowe.

 

You can believe all you want, but it will never, never happen under the current regime (which is another argument for change).

 

I would love nothing more than full houses from here until the end of the season with the support and the money flooding in to prop up the team and the Club.

 

But I would also love the numbers to next weeks lottery.

 

There is nothing at the Club that could even come remotely close to engendering such support and such a spirit that would draw people back in.

 

Lowe is a busted flush and the missing thousands will not flock back because neither Lowe, Wilde, Cowen or Wotte have the presence to make it happen.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Where does one start to write a few words when an essay of discontent would be apt? Last year I bought my ST (early) and was looking forward to seeing Pearson carry on the fight. I even resigned myself to Lowe coming back into the fray. However, after the PLC had taken my money, Lowe got rid of Pearson and then started dismantling the team. He then appointed the two Dutch tW&ts. Why in the name of all things sacred should I trust Lowe again? Why should I forgive him for ruining my football club and fleecing me of nearly £400 effectively lying about what I was paying for? Never again - sooner this goon (Wilde and Wotte) are gone for good the better.

[Tamesaint]

Anyone else think like me that this Nineteen Canteen is not the same one that has been posting recently???

 

Big change on attitude...perhaps Rupey's getting worried.

 

 

I noticed that.

 

Funnily enough the Fourth Bear has been posting on the echo site. That is where his normal bile and bigoted views are appearing. Clearly he is taking a different approach with us here.

 

The Fourth Bear / Flash man at the Charge / Sundance Beast / Nineteen Canteen are all the same person if anyone didn't know.

[Nineteen Canteen]

But that is exactly the problem.

 

None of the current cabal of shareholders have the balls nor ability to get out there and grasp the situation and run with it. So in the absence of any proactive drive from them, then maybe they need a kick up the backside to focus their minds.

 

Maybe but the harder we blow and try to rain on their parade the tighter they will pull the cloak around them. Approaching it from a different angle as I have suggested a march for a call to arms to support the club may encourage that cloak to be removed.[/I]

 

If the first stage of a protest march doesn't get them thinking, then I think the next step will ultimately be some sort of a boycott, be it matches this season or a season ticket boycott for next year. That might start to focus their attention and soon get them to realise that maintaining the staus quo is no forward thinking strategy.

 

This is where we disagree and it's depressing to contemplate. Fans are already conducting their own self inflicted boycotts encouraging more will risk destroying the club or alienating those loyal fans who show no signs of cracking that the fanbase of this club will be permanently fractured and will never recover. Boycott but it's those who stay loyal are effectively if barely keeping the club afloat and that will lead to massive resentment. I advocate the status quo only until the club is on a more secure financial footing and seeing crowds back to the 20 -25k levels and then post recession the fans will have to be listened too without the 'moaning and whingeing tag' currently be attached to us.

 

In desperate economic times moaning about how your team is being managed doesn't even register on the radar of some unfortunate people and you are not going to get a great level of public or media support as a result. Wotte is not without a fair point and is his rhetoric any less than Pearson's when he joined? They both seem pretty uncompromising except one is given the tag of being in Lowe's pocket when bottom line he is just trying to protect all our interests. Afterall if he fails it won't help his future or ours.[/I]

 

Just sitting here saying there is no alternative is a cop out, there are plenty of alternatives out there if only you have the balls and initiative to do something about it.

 

I am not saying there is no alternative. The action is to get the fans back through peer pressure, marches, advertising campaigns whatever. Secure the club's future and then tackle Lowe from a much stronger and morally higher base. Patience can be a genuine and alternative plan if its coupled with action that requires zero action from board. Simply campaign to get the fans back and we should be discussing how not writing it off as fanciful

 

It would be relatively simple to reconstitue our board, install an independent CEO and a Chairman who would carry soem gravitas and respect. Other companies (and Clubs) have managed it, why are we so different?

 

Because Lowe doesn't want to, hence the need to try something dfferent and then yes I agree with you.

 

To continue with a lame Board and CEO just because we don't know what is around the corner is parochial and defeatist in the extreme and is probably the worst excuse ever for standing by a failing board.

 

Not knowing what is around the corner is why we have risk maangemnt companies and with respect to suggest a plan that ignores the potential risks is equally lame and extremely myopic perhaps something those in charge over the past 5 years have all been guilty off so why mimc them? I am not saying continue indefinitely but I am saying it is not a priority unless you can say you can influence a change in personnel. Personally, to secure our immediate future I think its easier to try and convince the fans to support their club. use it or lose it simple as that.

 

I'm not really sure you do agree we need a change, because like many others, instead of really going for it, you start to put imaginary obstacles in the way, e.g. it will result in administration, what is the alternative etc etc etc.

 

These are not imaginery obstacles. Administration is tugging at a flimsey barricade and unless I have missed something there is not a more suitable alternative or one at least that the board will be prepared to listen to no matter how hard you protest. It is my opinion that the board will be bloody minded and if you think boycotts are the way to go I think they will simply say sod it and give you the rope. Seriously is that what you want or are prepared to run that risk?

 

In the absence of anything to support and praise Lowe for, the easiest option is to big up the worry of disposing with him. He is a mere paid CEO who are as numerous as football managers in the industry.

 

You've have not read my posts if you think this is what i am doing or at least read it only through juandiced eyes.

 

A slow lingering death or calling for the crash trolley both end up with the same result and arguably it might be better just to get it over and done with.

 

So you want to contribute to the club's downfall. How will your Saturday afternoons be without watching or following the Saints. If you can be this flippant then perhaps you're not the best person to discuss a way forward that can be something the supporters can achieve without the board's involvement.

 

This season has been a disgrace in so many ways and I'm surprised people have put up with it for so long. Rather than drag it out and start inflicting more misery on people, I can see the argument for getting it over and done with.

 

I can't because its not just the season you are getting it over and done with. The risk is too high.

 

However, my first choice would be change with faint hope that we can manage to get us out of this predicament. Carrying on as normal will only lead to the inevitable IMHO.

 

Agreed but as a start a change we can invoke with our peers and without the board that would secure the clubs future if not its CCC status is not just jsut carrying on as normal. Its a positive step towards change and surely you can see that it?

 

You can believe all you want, but it will never, never happen under the current regime (which is another argument for change).

 

I would love nothing more than full houses from here until the end of the season with the support and the money flooding in to prop up the team and the Club.

 

But I would also love the numbers to next weeks lottery.

 

There is nothing at the Club that could even come remotely close to engendering such support and such a spirit that would draw people back in.

 

Not even the fact the club could be broken up and closed down for good. Are we that entrenched that even those who supported the relegation fight last season v. Sheff utd would turn their backs in the greatest hour of need?

 

Lowe is a busted flush and the missing thousands will not flock back because neither Lowe, Wilde, Cowen or Wotte have the presence to make it happen.

 

Lowe may well be a busted flush but you keep saying it isn't going to remove him all it does is make you more negative. I know its a cliche but do you want to be part of the problem or part of a solution that looks a little more achievable and delivers real short term gains to tackle the real problems with an entirely different and more positive perspective.

 

Um you continue to focus n the parts of my posts that you feel most negative about but ignore some of the other equally relevant arguments. It woudl be good to get your view on each point raised instead of those you can selectively use to dig the trench a bit deeper. To move forward we need compromise from both sides and I can't think of many treaty's that have been signed off that has not required a significant shift in entrenched positions.

 

Comments above in your post but I fear I may be wasting my time trying to get some sort of buy-in or acceptance from you that if the marches and boycotts don't work then we need to try soemthing else that we can influence.

[docker-p]

I have yet to meet a single Saints fan who wants Lowe, Askham, and the rest of the Clowns to remain at our club. Not one.

Some hate them with a passion, some just don't think they are very good businessmen, and a few are ambivalent to him. But not one supports them or what they are doing. So it is always a surprise when I log on to this forum to find people in support of him.

 

But the facts are the club is about to be at it's lowest point for fifty years. Gates have halved and are still falling. The share price is dropping like a stone. And support the current board or not, protest or not, the club is going down the pan, whatever protestations the Loweites want to make on here.

 

Anyway, I'm off to SMS and in the words of Franz Ferdinand (the band not the Austrian) 'I predict a riot'.

[um pahars]

Maybe but the harder we blow and try to rain on their parade the tighter they will pull the cloak around them.

 

Well I would counter that the next move to get them to listen would be a boycott either of matches or of season ticket renewals. If they're not going to listen to plain marches, then as you say maybe we have to entertain a different angle.

 

I have to say your idea of all marching together and increasing attendances would arguably play into Lowe's hands who would probably just publicise the attendance figures as a show of the success of the Club under his stewardship.

 

That said, you are never going to get the missing thousands back with a call to arms and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Thousands of supporters have already demonstrated with their feet (be it directly or indirectly attributable to Lowe & the state of the Club).

 

This is where we disagree and it's depressing to contemplate. Fans are already conducting their own self inflicted boycotts encouraging more will risk destroying the club or alienating those loyal fans who show no signs of cracking that the fanbase of this club will be permanently fractured and will never recover. Boycott but it's those who stay loyal are effectively if barely keeping the club afloat and that will lead to massive resentment. I advocate the status quo only until the club is on a more secure financial footing and seeing crowds back to the 20 -25k levels and then post recession the fans will have to be listened too without the 'moaning and whingeing tag' currently be attached to us.

 

We have lost more supporters through the indirect actions of those running this Club in recent seasons, than we have through those who are genuinely boycotting.

 

Once again, to try and blame the minority of supporters who are staying away on principle is massivley missing the point.

 

Instead you should be looking at the reasons why the many thousands of supporters have turned their backs on the Club, and when you do you will see that the blame for this lies firmly in the boardroom.

 

You seem to be attacking the sympton of the general malaise and spectacularly missing the root cause of the problem.

 

Sorry, but your logic is twisted and you need to readdress what the root cause of the problem is before you even try to solve it.

 

Once again you advocating maintaining the staus quo does not sound like a compromise in any shape or form. You seem to what compromise on your terms.

 

I am not saying there is no alternative. The action is to get the fans back through peer pressure, marches, advertising campaigns whatever. Secure the club's future and then tackle Lowe from a much stronger and morally higher base.

 

I almost admire your sincerity, but I also know that deep down the underlying thrust of your position is to maintain the status quo and so I'm sorry but I can't take your attempts at trying to remove Lowe through increasing attendances as a serious one!!!

 

And that's before we even get on to discuss the futility and impossibility of the task.

 

Now of course if your desire to remove Lowe is now so profound, may I enquire as to what has changed recently for you to perform such an about turn?

 

Because Lowe doesn't want to, hence the need to try something dfferent and then yes I agree with you.

 

No sign of a compromise there then.

 

Not knowing what is around the corner is why we have risk maangemnt companies and with respect to suggest a plan that ignores the potential risks is equally lame and extremely myopic perhaps something those in charge over the past 5 years have all been guilty off so why mimc them? I am not saying continue indefinitely but I am saying it is not a priority unless you can say you can influence a change in personnel. Personally, to secure our immediate future I think its easier to try and convince the fans to support their club. use it or lose it simple as that.

 

Of course risk is inherent with change, but to the same degree we all know and realise the risk of maintaining the status quo.

 

When we replaced Wigley, we never appointed the right man. Getting rid of Wigley was the right decision, but maybe appointing Redknapp wasn't.

 

Would you have advocated sticking with Poortvliet just because the last time we sacked someone like Wigley we got it wrong? Of course you wouldn't, so to suggest any change would automatically mimic the mistakes of previous years is once again being extremely disenegenuoius and negative.

 

We would endeavour to bring about change for the good. Not easy I'm sure, probably troublesome, messy and painful, but a darn sight more forward thinking that maintaining the statuis quo which is hardly a compromise.

 

These are not imaginery obstacles. Administration is tugging at a flimsey barricade and unless I have missed something there is not a more suitable alternative or one at least that the board will be prepared to listen to no matter how hard you protest. It is my opinion that the board will be bloody minded and if you think boycotts are the way to go I think they will simply say sod it and give you the rope. Seriously is that what you want or are prepared to run that risk?

 

They are imaginary in that you tried to insiuate that removing Lowe would automatically result in adminsitration. You now suggest that there is no suitable altertnative (see my responses on other threads where it is rather disengenuous to suggest that no one in the entire human population couldn't undertake the job of a CEO at a middle ranking football club).

 

And I don't doubt for one minute, much in the same way that you have throughout your posts, that those in charge will attempt to blame the supporters and conveniently forgetting the major part they (and others) have played in the downfall of this Club. Cheap, lazy and out of touch, but not at all a surprise.

 

So you want to contribute to the club's downfall. How will your Saturday afternoons be without watching or following the Saints. If you can be this flippant then perhaps you're not the best person to discuss a way forward that can be something the supporters can achieve without the board's involvement.

 

Once again, blame the fans. Boring and spectacularly missing the point.

 

Whilst we moan, on here, on marches, in our armchairs or on the terraces, the real damage has been, and continues to be, done up in the boardroom.

 

Sainst will exist in some form or another long after the current shambles have upped and left. We existed in various guises before them and we have the strength to rise again. It may take time, it may be painful but blackmailing the supporters is no way to take this Club forward.

 

I can't because its not just the season you are getting it over and done with. The risk is too high.

 

The problem is that we are going down the pan under your plan of maintaining the status quo. Given the choice no one wants administration, but that is where we are heading under the current shambles.

 

Agreed but as a start a change we can invoke with our peers and without the board that would secure the clubs future if not its CCC status is not just jsut carrying on as normal. Its a positive step towards change and surely you can see that it?

 

I can see the logic, I just don't buy into your selling of it;)

 

Not even the fact the club could be broken up and closed down for good. Are we that entrenched that even those who supported the relegation fight last season v. Sheff utd would turn their backs in the greatest hour of need?

 

Attendances and support speak for themself here.

 

No one at the Club has the ability to rally the supporters around to create a spirit of unity.

 

You can wish it all you want, but under the current regime and your strategy of maintaining the staus quo it will never happen. Simply, it's hot air and wishful thinking.

 

Lowe may well be a busted flush but you keep saying it isn't going to remove him all it does is make you more negative. I know its a cliche but do you want to be part of the problem or part of a solution that looks a little more achievable and delivers real short term gains to tackle the real problems with an entirely different and more positive perspective.

 

But Lowe is a busted flush. It is under his sterwardship that we have failed again. That's not being negative, it's just an honest assessment of where we are today.

 

I happen to think that the solution is not maintaining the staus quo, but instead to try and pull together a board of unity. Include some figures who the supproters may respect, dismiss the negative and divisive forces and try and rebuild with a new boarr.

 

If you think your idea of rallying fans in the short term is more achievable then hats off to you and I await your grand march to St Mary's behind your banner.

[um pahars]

To move forward we need compromise from both sides and I can't think of many treaty's that have been signed off that has not required a significant shift in entrenched positions.

 

I have suggested a number of compromises in reconstituting the board that included keeping Cowen and Wilde on as Non Execs, maybe even putting Richards on to the Board as a part of a wider shake up.

 

Your argument of maintaining the status quo is hardly a compromise.

 

Throughout your post, there is no real indication of compromise or a search for an alternative. Instead it is just a number of porr excuses as to why we shoul maintain the status quo.

 

Now if people could start to justify why we should stick with Lowe and the benefits he brings to the Club, then they might just have the basis of a proper argument.

 

Instead the basis of their argument is the negatives of what change might bring, which is a very backward looking and parochial way of running a business, let alone a Football Club.

 

 

To cut to the chase, as I said above I would be most interested to know when you were converted to seeking to remove Lowe from this Club, because everything in the past from yourself (under your various guises) has been overly supportive of him.

 

What has made you change your tune?

 

Or is it a change in tack because you know at the current time supporting Lowe is untenable, and so instead the tactic is to lay down as many barriers as possible as to why he shouldn't be removed?

 

Being honest, I think it's the latter, which is really negative and speaks volumes in itself.

[Wes Tender]

I admire your persistence, Nineteen Canteen, in your attempt to pursuade the fan base towards a different approach to our current dire circumstances.

 

But your efforts will ultimately be in vain, unless there are changes in our fortunes on the pitch and then a resultant glimmer of hope becomes a real possibility. Otherwise, it is inevitable that support and attendances will naturally dwindle as more and more fans become disillusioned with the board and their inept and bizarre experiment that has failed so dismally.

 

The big flaws in your otherwise eloquent argument are these two points.

 

Firstly, there is a disinclination to continue supporting the current regime purely because that support actually perpetuates the continuation of their stewardship. Many have stated that they refuse to put money into Lowe's and Wilde's pockets. Of course, it is depriving the club of that money at the same time, which is regrettable, but these fans are making a stand on a matter of principle (as am I) and there is nothing that can be said to change their minds. They pledge their return when Wilde and Lowe are gone, so the board should be under no illusions that until they go, those fans will not return.

 

This brings me on to the second point, which is closely connected to the first. There cannot be unity amongst the supporters while Lowe and Wilde remain in charge. You admit yourself that Lowe is a busted flush, but that is sort of contradicted by your stance on what constitutes the problem or the solution. If you believe that the fans are the problem, then your viewpoint holds some water. But if as you infer by calling Lowe a busted flush that he is the problem, then it therefore follows logically that the solution is to get rid of him.

 

I find it hard to believe that somebody as intelligent as you finds it such a difficult concept to grasp, that these divisions within the fan base will only ever increase and multiply until Lowe goes. I don't claim to represent any body of support within the fan base, but I contend that because of the two points I raised, the only conceivable outcome that will reunite the fans into a collective campaign for survival will be Lowe and Wilde's removal either voluntarily, through the bank telling them to go or through administration.

 

Naturally I would prefer the bloodless route; their resignation. But if they refuse to budge, they will be the architects of either of the other two options. Apparently the difference between the views of Um, me and others is that under those circumstances, we blame the board for their disastrously inept handling of this season and previous ones, whereas if I read you correctly, you would blame us the customers for the failure of the PLC. Have I summarised that correctly?

[Nineteen Canteen]

I have suggested a number of compromises in reconstituting the board that included keeping Cowen and Wilde on as Non Execs, maybe even putting Richards on to the Board as a part of a wider shake up.

 

Your argument of maintaining the status quo is hardly a compromise.

 

Throughout your post, there is no real indication of compromise or a search for an alternative. Instead it is just a number of porr excuses as to why we shoul maintain the status quo.

 

Now if people could start to justify why we should stick with Lowe and the benefits he brings to the Club, then they might just have the basis of a proper argument.

 

Instead the basis of their argument is the negatives of what change might bring, which is a very backward looking and parochial way of running a business, let alone a Football Club.

 

 

To cut to the chase, as I said above I would be most interested to know when you were converted to seeking to remove Lowe from this Club, because everything in the past from yourself (under your various guises) has been overly supportive of him.

 

What has made you change your tune?

 

Or is it a change in tack because you know at the current time supporting Lowe is untenable, and so instead the tactic is to lay down as many barriers as possible as to why he shouldn't be removed?

 

Being honest, I think it's the latter, which is really negative and speaks volumes in itself.

 

Your very wrong Um pahars and you continue to ignore the fact I am suggesting change but the focus has to shift in the short term from trying to remove Lowe and focus on the increasing the revenue for the club. You talk about someone must be out their who can take over the job of CEO then yes of course there is but it takes a lot longer and will be a lot harder to convince the board to a) change, b) recruit c) appoint d) wait for the candidate to serve their notice. In the meantime the club could have folded through lack of support.

 

At this this stage supporting Lowe is irrelevant as I am only interested in supporting the club. At least the marchers are trying to do something but it has no teeth and supporting a boycott has ridiculous ramifications that a genuine supporter could not contemplate. Meanwhile Rome continues to burn and if the compromise appears to all be on our side then so be it but afterall it is our club. Once made and with a message that fans are coming backing solely to support the club and not the board then maybe Lowe's position will be come more unteneable and they will recognise that a CEO should be appointed as a compromise to match that shown by the fans.

 

Bottom line for me and why I have supported Lowe is simply because I saw him as the lesser evil of Crouch, Wilde and the mystical Fulthorpe Consortium. I still do but that isn't the ringing endorsement you would like to label me as having and my view point has never changed. Crouch insulted our intelligence and is all talk and after timing so I had little choice but to support Lowe or be ambivalent but the latter goes against the grain of supporting a club.

 

It seems I need to give up on you but hopefully through those public debate it may have given some boycotting or apathetic fans food for thought. Enjoy the game and hopefully the team put in a decent performance and even defeat today or next week against cardiff will not be a disaster as we have plenty of easier games to come to get those 6 wins. So if we are playing well and go down a goal or two please behave yourself.

Edited 21 February, 2009 by Nineteen Canteen
Posted before I finished

[um pahars]

Just as a quick reply as I'm late for my pre match beer.

 

This one line seems to encapsulate so much about the current problems facing the Club:

 

In the meantime the club could have folded through lack of support.

 

And the majority of the missing support have stayed away directly or indirectly as a result of the catastrophe that has occurred under Lowe's.

 

The missing thousands who have voted with their feet have done so as a result of Lowe's incredulous decisions this season. Rather than blame them, you should be looking at the incompetence that has made them undertake this decision.

 

I can argue for a change in CEO, Chairman and/or manager, others can call for protests and boycotts, whilst you can dream of full houses until the end of the season, but the bare facts are that Lowe has led this Club to the precipice and in the next few weeks he may well take us over the edge.

 

Those are the salient facts and history will be the judge of Lowe.

[SaintRobbie]

Nineteen Canteen...mmmmmm... don't live in the Cotswold's by any chance do you?... or have relations there perhaps?

 

Only, if I were Rupert Lowe I'd be writing exactly those words right now.

[gjphilsaint]

13'333

[The Majestic Channon]

it's 14,790.

[thorpie the sinner]

Just wonder if that victory could increase next weeks attendance by a couple of thousand!!

[Nineteen Canteen]

I admire your persistence, Nineteen Canteen, in your attempt to pursuade the fan base towards a different approach to our current dire circumstances.

 

But your efforts will ultimately be in vain, unless there are changes in our fortunes on the pitch and then a resultant glimmer of hope becomes a real possibility. Otherwise, it is inevitable that support and attendances will naturally dwindle as more and more fans become disillusioned with the board and their inept and bizarre experiment that has failed so dismally.

 

The big flaws in your otherwise eloquent argument are these two points.

 

Firstly, there is a disinclination to continue supporting the current regime purely because that support actually perpetuates the continuation of their stewardship. Many have stated that they refuse to put money into Lowe's and Wilde's pockets. Of course, it is depriving the club of that money at the same time, which is regrettable, but these fans are making a stand on a matter of principle (as am I) and there is nothing that can be said to change their minds. They pledge their return when Wilde and Lowe are gone, so the board should be under no illusions that until they go, those fans will not return.

 

This brings me on to the second point, which is closely connected to the first. There cannot be unity amongst the supporters while Lowe and Wilde remain in charge. You admit yourself that Lowe is a busted flush, but that is sort of contradicted by your stance on what constitutes the problem or the solution. If you believe that the fans are the problem, then your viewpoint holds some water. But if as you infer by calling Lowe a busted flush that he is the problem, then it therefore follows logically that the solution is to get rid of him.

 

I find it hard to believe that somebody as intelligent as you finds it such a difficult concept to grasp, that these divisions within the fan base will only ever increase and multiply until Lowe goes. I don't claim to represent any body of support within the fan base, but I contend that because of the two points I raised, the only conceivable outcome that will reunite the fans into a collective campaign for survival will be Lowe and Wilde's removal either voluntarily, through the bank telling them to go or through administration.

 

Naturally I would prefer the bloodless route; their resignation. But if they refuse to budge, they will be the architects of either of the other two options. Apparently the difference between the views of Um, me and others is that under those circumstances, we blame the board for their disastrously inept handling of this season and previous ones, whereas if I read you correctly, you would blame us the customers for the failure of the PLC. Have I summarised that correctly?

 

Wes on balance I would say you have summarised that pretty closely to where I am coming from but I never said that for the fans to comeback whilst Lowe is still in charge wouldn't require a leap of faith. However, that shouldn't be a problem for us as football we are often told is a religion and I've never come across one of those that doesn't need an unbelievable leap of faith.

 

The only point I take major issue with is the fact you believe I would blame the customers for the failure of the plc. I know you have a major issue with the plc and I can understand that but I don't have a problem with the plc other than the way things have been managed over the past 5 years and the pettiness of the 'big' 3. The PLC structure wasn't the problem the attitude of the shareholders and directors past and present most certainly was iMO. Now I do not blame the fans for the those past 5 years that would be ridiculous and we both know that. However, if we were to go into administration before the end of the season fans who have stayed away simply because of a Lowe prejudice or results on the pitch then I would blame then for being at least in part culpable for putting the club into administration. Its in the name but supporters do sometimes have to help 'prop' the club when things get bad which they will, as its part of the game.

 

Look at Norwich they got another 24,000 today and perhaps if we had that strength of support there could be some economies of scale that we could all benefit from. I just feel the marches are negative with no plan beyond get Lowe out which he won't do on the strength of a somewhat futile march and boycott and hitting the club's revenue when they need it is simply economic madness unless you not only hate Lowe you are ambivalent about the future of club.

 

In the meantime I hope you changed your mind and got to the game today. Apparently, the light at the end of the tunnel has not gone out it just needed a new bulb - amazing these new bulbs all that light from just the 1 Wotte.

[um pahars]

amazing these new bulbs all that light from just the 1 Wotte.

 

We've had five Wotte's and we've got five points.

 

I'd much rather have a 50 watt or even a 40 watt bulb than a 31 wotte dudd.

[Nineteen Canteen]

We've had five Wotte's and we've got five points.

 

I'd much rather have a 50 watt or even a 40 watt bulb than a 31 wotte dudd.

 

Um we were very unlucky in both the Sheff U and Bristol C games not to get a point and todays victory was not that much of a surprise considering the way Wotte has changed things. Its a good start not that far off from Pearson's start from memory and no 5 goal defeats. Cardiff and Birmingham are going to be different propositions so may need to take something at Ipswich but after that we have some very winnable games if we can keep playing and battling as we do today. Btw - who do you support?

[um pahars]

Btw - who do you support?

 

The same team since I first saw them in 1974, and you LOL:D

[hypochondriac]

Um we were very unlucky in both the Sheff U and Bristol C games not to get a point and todays victory was not that much of a surprise considering the way Wotte has changed things. Its a good start not that far off from Pearson's start from memory and no 5 goal defeats. Cardiff and Birmingham are going to be different propositions so may need to take something at Ipswich but after that we have some very winnable games if we can keep playing and battling as we do today. Btw - who do you support?

 

Really pleased with the win today but we definitely were not unlucky to not get a point in those games. Certainly not the Bristol game that I went to. Bristol had a penalty saved and had some very poor finishing in the first half.

[alehouseboys]

...Look at Norwich they got another 24,000 today and perhaps if we had that strength of support there could be some economies of scale that we could all benefit from...

 

...we had far stronger strength of support but...

 

You've just highlighted another monumental Wupert f**k-up. When Norwich were relegated along with us the first thing they did was slash season ticket prices and got a complete take-up and restored the feelgood factor. We continued to charge Premier League prices and immediately further p*ssed off and already massively p*ssed off fanbase and so the decline continued - particularly as the product on offer since has deteriorated considerably.

 

Norwich know how to treat their 'customers' and the fans have also been able to renew every year 'early bird' at those low prices. Well done Delia.