saint63 Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 I'm beginning to think that the fire sale is moving into the area of Rupert's revenge on the club in a very personal way. Surely even he must realise that relegation is a certainty if we keep getting rid of experienced players. The gap between us and the other clubs is getting greater daily. This experiment is going too far too fast. Barclays must see the nonsense in us getting relegated - even smaller crowds, less other income.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Skacel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 I'm beginning to think that the fire sale is moving into the area of Rupert's revenge on the club in a very personal way. Thats just plain stupid, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Scooby, Sundance and the Professor A shame some people, Weston, Alpine, Offix, etc., find it too difficult to conduct a debate but at least its brightened up by such fantastic wit. Imagine suggesting Lowe should be offloaded instead of Skacel, Euell, along with anyone who disagrees with their defeatist propaganda on the forum. Such a clever post, laugh, I nearly shat my pants. One day, someone other than Lowe will take over the running of the club, but we need that to happen when it is someone who can run the club for the better. Wilde, and then Crouch, showed that they couldn't, and it was nearly a disaster. Should the great wish of the anti-Lowe obsessives come to pass while there is no one capable of replacing Lowe waiting to take over, that is what could see the club in freefall, just as it was last season. Ironic indeed, that if Lowe walked away because he got sick and tired of being the object of so much abuse, the people who would suffer most would be the fans, including the very ones who wanted him to go. On the other hand, if he stays in charge until someone better is willing to take on the role, that would be a different matter, but presently, the anti-Lowers are simply Turkeys voting for Christmas. Or, as they spread so much anti-saints stuff, are they skates in disguise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 A shame some people, Weston, Alpine, Offix, etc., find it too difficult to conduct a debate but at least its brightened up by such fantastic wit. Are you as obnoxious in real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torbay Saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Whilst I dont agree that it is Lowe's revenge, the youth policy is becoming stupid. Our last 3 games all of which I have attended have been men against boys. There is only one place we are going this year and that is league one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 I'm beginning to think that the fire sale is moving into the area of Rupert's revenge on the club in a very personal way. Surely even he must realise that relegation is a certainty if we keep getting rid of experienced players. The gap between us and the other clubs is getting greater daily. This experiment is going too far too fast. Barclays must see the nonsense in us getting relegated - even smaller crowds, less other income.... You would like to think so, wouldnt you ? Putting aside their officiousness, bankers arent complete dullards (apart from the dropouts that work for CCC football clubs). I would have argued that if Barclays play too much hardball, they are likely to get less money back than with a softly-softly approach. I dont buy this global credit crunch bollllox. That sounds like a convenient excuse. They could just raise the interest rate on the overdraft, and as long as we kept paying, they wouldnt give a shiny one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 You would like to think so, wouldnt you ? Putting aside their officiousness, bankers arent complete dullards (apart from the dropouts that work for CCC football clubs). I would have argued that if Barclays play too much hardball, they are likely to get less money back than with a softly-softly approach. I dont buy this global credit crunch bollllox. That sounds like a convenient excuse. They could just raise the interest rate on the overdraft, and as long as we kept paying, they wouldnt give a shiny one. Bankers apply only banking business brains to the issue. They want to see costs coming down and the business making a concerted attempt to live within its means. Right now, they'll care about precious little else. And if you don't buy the credit crunch ****** might I suggest you buy a tin hat?? I would have thought of all people, you would recognise when the sky is falling in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Bankers apply only banking business brains to the issue. They want to see costs coming down and the business making a concerted attempt to live within its means. Right now, they'll care about precious little else. And if you don't buy the credit crunch ****** might I suggest you buy a tin hat?? I would have thought of all people, you would recognise when the sky is falling in... Maybe I should have expanded that point. I dont buy that the global credit crunch has any impact on Barclays attitude in their dealings with SFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Maybe I should have expanded that point. I dont buy that the global credit crunch has any impact on Barclays attitude in their dealings with SFC. It will. I'm sure their lending criteria across the board will have been tightened. Four years with RBS and 17 years marriage to one of their senior managers tells me that... They will be sh!tting themselves about their debts to SFC. Doesn't take too many £30M debts going TU to feck up your accounts. Look at A&L - if they are not bought by Santander, they'll probably go bust. Like Freddie and Fannie. I sometimes wonder whether people really get the size of the storm, or whether they are simply happy with the brollies because they can only feel a spatter right now... But someone from Barclays might come on and know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 It will. I'm sure their lending criteria across the board will have been tightened. Four years with RBS and 17 years marriage to one of their senior managers tells me that... They will be sh!tting themselves about their debts to SFC. Doesn't take too many £30M debts going TU to feck up your accounts. Look at A&L - if they are not bought by Santander, they'll probably go bust. Like Freddie and Fannie. I sometimes wonder whether people really get the size of the storm, or whether they are simply happy with the brollies because they can only feel a spatter right now... But someone from Barclays might come on and know better. We are not talking about new loans. We are talking about servicing current debt. As I said, they could have bumped up the interest rate, and they would have been happy-as-larry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Maybe I should have expanded that point. I dont buy that the global credit crunch has any impact on Barclays attitude in their dealings with SFC. I think since the credit crunch banks are being more prudent in what money they are loaning so it may well be having an effect on SFC's overdraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Not convinced, but willing to be corrected by someone ITK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 We are not talking about new loans. We are talking about servicing current debt. As I said, they could have bumped up the interest rate, and they would have been happy-as-larry. I doubt that the debt is not agreed already at say LIBOR +1 or something, so 'bumping up the rate' is hardly likely to be an option. And it is the servicing of current debt that the banks are sh!tting themselves about. They have NO liquid funds of their own. They need ALL their debts serviced or they simply will run out of cash. That's why they had to ask the markets for 12Billion. Do you watch the news at all in Vienna?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 A shame some people, Weston, Alpine, Offix, etc., find it too difficult to conduct a debate but at least its brightened up by such fantastic wit. Imagine suggesting Lowe should be offloaded instead of Skacel, Euell, along with anyone who disagrees with their defeatist propaganda on the forum. Such a clever post, laugh, I nearly shat my pants. One day, someone other than Lowe will take over the running of the club, but we need that to happen when it is someone who can run the club for the better. Wilde, and then Crouch, showed that they couldn't, and it was nearly a disaster. Should the great wish of the anti-Lowe obsessives come to pass while there is no one capable of replacing Lowe waiting to take over, that is what could see the club in freefall, just as it was last season. Ironic indeed, that if Lowe walked away because he got sick and tired of being the object of so much abuse, the people who would suffer most would be the fans, including the very ones who wanted him to go. On the other hand, if he stays in charge until someone better is willing to take on the role, that would be a different matter, but presently, the anti-Lowers are simply Turkeys voting for Christmas. Or, as they spread so much anti-saints stuff, are they skates in disguise? Oh please, what utter and complete bullsh*t. Surely a case of If you can't convince them, confuse them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 I doubt that the debt is not agreed already at say LIBOR +1 or something, so 'bumping up the rate' is hardly likely to be an option. And it is the servicing of current debt that the banks are sh!tting themselves about. They have NO liquid funds of their own. They need ALL their debts serviced or they simply will run out of cash. That's why they had to ask the markets for 12Billion. Do you watch the news at all in Vienna?? If SFC/SLH are managing their interest payments, is the debt not being serviced ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 If SFC/SLH are managing their interest payments, is the debt not being serviced ??? No, they had to go cap in hand to the bank and increase their borrowing. At which point the bank no doubt agreed providing they could see costs reduce significantly. Which is what is now happening. But the bank will be meeting with them every few days to make sure that this is the case, I am sure. And they probably have given a 'revenue/amount' target that they want to see paid off by the end of the transfer window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 I am sure banks will also raise an eyelid if you asset strip your own business to such an extent that it is no longer a viable business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 No, they had to go cap in hand to the bank and increase their borrowing. At which point the bank no doubt agreed providing they could see costs reduce significantly. You know this for a fact ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 I am sure banks will also raise an eyelid if you asset strip your own business to such an extent that it is no longer a viable business. I would have thought so too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 I am sure banks will also raise an eyelid if you asset strip your own business to such an extent that it is no longer a viable business. But results don't bear that out do they? We are no worse having reduced debt than we were with it. If anything we are better. They simply want to see coste restrained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 You know this for a fact ? Err yes. Lowe talked about it openly either on the OS or at a forum somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 "The financial results will show an increase in the level of borrowings which has necessitated extensive discussions with the Company's bank..." R Lowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 But results don't bear that out do they? We are no worse having reduced debt than we were with it. If anything we are better. They simply want to see coste restrained. Results do bear that out at the moment but time will indeed tell on that one as I know it is early days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Results do bear that out at the moment but time will indeed tell on that one as I know it is early days. Agreed, but Lowe says the bank are fully supportive of his approach and that no doubt included the acquisition and installation of a new management team and reliance on youth, etc. Now imagine the bankers. They get these presentations from companies all the time. Only usually not from a director of another bank who was no doubt extremely convincing. So the bankers make a choice. Do they buy the strategy? And in this case, they have. But only with certain caveats no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 19 August, 2008 Share Posted 19 August, 2008 Agreed, but Lowe says the bank are fully supportive of his approach and that no doubt included the acquisition and installation of a new management team and reliance on youth, etc. Now imagine the bankers. They get these presentations from companies all the time. Only usually not from a director of another bank who was no doubt extremely convincing. So the bankers make a choice. Do they buy the strategy? And in this case, they have. But only with certain caveats no doubt. I appreciate what you are saying, but the problem I have with all of this is that Lowe was tinkering with this idea of using the dutch guys and playing the youth before he was ousted, and yet he basically states now that these new reforms have been forced on him because of our financial state. I tend to smell a rat in all of this and in my opinion, after making good profits in the past by selling our home grown talent, he intends to do the same but more frequently. In one way, this is good business, but on the other hand it is no good for the fans of this club as it causes instability with the numerous comings and goings of playing staff, and does not guarantee success because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amesbury Saint Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 It would be interesting to know the cheapest wages a CCC team has - a squad of 25 players on YTS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncoboy Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 It will. I'm sure their lending criteria across the board will have been tightened. Four years with RBS and 17 years marriage to one of their senior managers tells me that... They will be sh!tting themselves about their debts to SFC. Doesn't take too many £30M debts going TU to feck up your accounts. Look at A&L - if they are not bought by Santander, they'll probably go bust. Like Freddie and Fannie. I sometimes wonder whether people really get the size of the storm, or whether they are simply happy with the brollies because they can only feel a spatter right now... But someone from Barclays might come on and know better. Never liked Fredidie annd Fannie was just a cow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Second Coming Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 I appreciate what you are saying, but the problem I have with all of this is that Lowe was tinkering with this idea of using the dutch guys and playing the youth before he was ousted, and yet he basically states now that these new reforms have been forced on him because of our financial state. I tend to smell a rat in all of this and in my opinion, after making good profits in the past by selling our home grown talent, he intends to do the same but more frequently. In one way, this is good business, but on the other hand it is no good for the fans of this club as it causes instability with the numerous comings and goings of playing staff, and does not guarantee success because of that. You could well be right you know. Everything has fallen right for Rupert and he can use the lack of funds to do exactly what he always wanted anyway! This way he cuts players salaries to the bone, promotes youth and marginalises the role of manager to coach. And the bank have bought it. And he has all the evidence he needs to prove it courtesy of the previous adminsitration!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 It would be interesting to know the cheapest wages a CCC team has - a squad of 25 players on YTS? A survey in 2006 revealed that the average Championship footballer earns £195,750 per year, or to put it another way £3,764 a week. The figure dropped to £67,850 in League One and £49,600 in League Two. By the time we have got rid of Euell and co, we should fall within this bracket. With a squad of 24 averaging this wage, we would have a player salary of approx £100,000 a month. Compare that to last season, I would have a guess that we will be reducing the debt somewhere in the region of £100,000 to £150,000 per month. I'm sure I'll be corrected by the financial wizards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 I appreciate what you are saying, but the problem I have with all of this is that Lowe was tinkering with this idea of using the dutch guys and playing the youth before he was ousted, and yet he basically states now that these new reforms have been forced on him because of our financial state. I tend to smell a rat in all of this and in my opinion, after making good profits in the past by selling our home grown talent, he intends to do the same but more frequently. In one way, this is good business, but on the other hand it is no good for the fans of this club as it causes instability with the numerous comings and goings of playing staff, and does not guarantee success because of that. He will also know that the rewards of premiership football would be far greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 Doing a bit of research on the main site, I've found all of those players the club would like to get rid of have the following time left on their contracts: BWP - Signed 3 year deal - 1 year left Skacel - Signed 4 year deal - 2 years left Saganowski - Signed 3 year deal - 2 years left Euell - Signed 2 year deal - 1 year left Thomas - Signed 3 year deal - 2 years left Rasiak - Couldn't find the exact contract but would presume 4 years, which would leave 2 So, this time next year Skacel and Thomas will still be kicking about our reserves!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasiak-9- Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 Honestly i'd be happy with letting Jason Euell go for a free as he must be on a good 15k a week at least. If we can get a million or so for Skacel I think that'd be a good price, the problem is that clubs know just how desperate we are for money and can pretty much rape us on the negotiating table. I wouldn't be suprised if Skacel was sold for 250k or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 Honestly i'd be happy with letting Jason Euell go for a free as he must be on a good 15k a week at least. If we can get a million or so for Skacel I think that'd be a good price, the problem is that clubs know just how desperate we are for money and can pretty much rape us on the negotiating table. I wouldn't be suprised if Skacel was sold for 250k or so. TBH, nobody wants Skacel at his wage level, so I would expect the only way to reduce the wage costs is for him to be sent out on loan and we pay say 40% of his wages - saves us a bunch more money each week. If he goes on a month's loan with an option to extend once that month is up we could recall him if 1) He actually "gets his head together and is playing football" or 2) If we got offered a better deal. Ditto Euell I would expect. That option would also save us appearance money and potential goal/win bonuses. AND would allow us to bring in some loan players to cover positions we need even IF not as good as we would have wanted if they were off the books completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killer fan Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 loweeeeeeeeee out lowe out someone please take us over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 Cannot see a case for getting rid of anyone before we get rid of BWP and Euell. Finding someone to take them off our hands may prove difficult, but surely there is someone out there. Skacel I'd keep just to make the football vaguely interesting to watch. I don't care if he waves and claps till his arms fall off, or he needs CPR after 60 minutes. He is one of the few players since we got relegated that I actually felt excited knowing he was going to play, or at least during the playoff season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 20 August, 2008 Share Posted 20 August, 2008 A survey in 2006 revealed that the average Championship footballer earns £195,750 per year, or to put it another way £3,764 a week. The figure dropped to £67,850 in League One and £49,600 in League Two. By the time we have got rid of Euell and co, we should fall within this bracket. With a squad of 24 averaging this wage, we would have a player salary of approx £100,000 a month. Compare that to last season, I would have a guess that we will be reducing the debt somewhere in the region of £100,000 to £150,000 per month. I'm sure I'll be corrected by the financial wizards. I'd have thought if you replace the word 'month' with 'week' you'd be nearer the truth. If we assume: J. Wright - £6k R. Wright - £10k Vignal - £10k II - £12k Saga - £10k Rasiak - £12k Claus - £15k Powell - £10k Ostlund - £8k Hammill - £5k Baseya - £2k Licka - £4k Viafara - £10k Safri - £10k Lucketti - £5k Makin - £5k Pericard - £5k I make that £139k a week saved on wages. Now taking into account 4 or 5 signings on very low wages and assuming costs have been cut elsewhere. Closing corners, no busses etc. We're looking at over £600k a month saved compared to the a*se end of last season. I'm not ITK BTW, that's just maths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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