Giving stick to the players

[del boy]

I can remember that for some parts of some games at the very beginning of the season the football was sublime - and there were many posts on here saying that it was the best seen by Saints for years etc. It was like Arsenal at their best - quick passing football with lots of movement.

 

I also saw this in the pre-season games where, against relatively weak opposition, we banged in a hatful of goals.

 

I remember thinking that it was, like all football and all sport, based on confidence and I dreaded "the boysh" getting knocked about by a few teams of hoofers and being completely knocked out of their stride. It didnt happen immediately, but their confidence seems to have been gradually drained away - and sadly some of our home "support" seems to be part of that. On the whole I think we have been pretty good, but it only takes a few idiots and they always seem to be the loudest.

 

But we pay our ticket money, we have a right to abuse the team dont we?!

[ottery st mary]

It turns out most players are deaf and can't hear the crowd.

Jimmy Case told me that.

[scott_saints]

Ffs not this argument again!!

 

Ok, so some people say it helps. Some people say it doesn't. The truth is somewhere in the middle!

 

The people who say it helps will point to times when they think it has helped. The people who say it doesn't help will point to times when they've "sang for the whole game and we played s**t".

 

Well, of course sometimes you will sing and the team will play s**t. This is because the team are the main factor in whether we play well or not. Just because they're the main factor does NOT mean that singing wont help!!

 

Ok- it wont always result in a good performance or a win, but it doesn't hurt the team one bit!!!!

 

ffs

 

edit- Oh, and one more point. To those that say "they should be happy to take abuse for the wages they're on"............. it's not their fault that they happen to be good (ish?) at what they do, and what they do happens to pay extremely well.

[aintforever]

they should be able to take the abuse in the same way they lap up the applause......if they are sh1t then i will let them know, in the same way i will let them know when they are doing well...they are after all getting paid a lot of money to kick a ball around whilst i have to work my nuts off for a relatively small amount in comparison.

if they cant take the abuse then they should get out of the game or do something to improve their game.

contrary to popular belief,footballers are not stupid,they know that if they play sh1t the crowd will get restless but they also know that for the majority of the time they will be applauded.

after they have finished their 90 minutes 'work' they can always go back to their big mansions,lock themselves away behind their electric gates and count their 'well earned' money.

 

The thing is they do take the abuse as well as the praise, and of course they are aware that if they play bad then the crowd will not be happy.

 

We all take stick in our work, if I screw up then I get grief of my boss, workmates and clients - and I accept that. Shouting abuse at McLaggon is the equivalent to putting the office Junior in the Managers position, watching him try as hard as he possibly can, they give him abuse for making a mistake knowing full well it is virtually impossible for him to do a proper job.

 

I don't think abuse helps any player - young or old. When we were at the Dell I used to think one reason we stayed up was because in the relegation battle, if we went a goal down, the crowd would get behind the side. I used to remember going away to bigger teams - like Man City and Sunderland, and laugh when we went a goal up and the crowd would turn, hurl abuse and basically make their teams job a whole lot harder. Now it's like the roles have reversed, we think we are the big team with a devine right to stay up so it's us that rips into the team and it's the Doncasters who support when things go bad.

[Millbrook Saint]

I don't normally post on here but I have to say this is something that really ****es me off. I know they're paid well and they're professional footballers blah blah blah. The thing is on Tuesday people were around me were shouting abuse at the players loudly and it was obvious they could hear who it was directed at.

 

I work in IT and if someone was to come up to me giving me abuse or shouting down the phone at me, it certainly wouldn't motivate me, I'd think what... **** you I'll take my time, your problem will go to the bottom of the pile.

 

These lads are trying their best, they're at the beginning of their carreers and know they still haven't made it yet, they're not likely to be strutting around tossing it off like old players looking for one last payday.

 

The fact of the matter is they may or may not turn out to be good enough but people shouting abuse at them because they don't play like players they watch on tv isn't helping them or the team.

[ottery st mary]

I remeber playing around some of the park pitches in Southampton and Eastleigh and getting lots of stick from one man and his dog..Some of it was very hurtful and some of it very biting and the bloke was rather rude as well. He would always trip you up with his brolly as you sped down the touchline. Come to think of it, he was my agent as well. Made me pay extra 50p subs every week. Not the dog. Modern day players have never had it so good.

[Wes Tender]

Ffs not this argument again!!

 

Ok, so some people say it helps. Some people say it doesn't. The truth is somewhere in the middle!

 

The people who say it helps will point to times when they think it has helped. The people who say it doesn't help will point to times when they've "sang for the whole game and we played s**t".

 

Well, of course sometimes you will sing and the team will play s**t. This is because the team are the main factor in whether we play well or not. Just because they're the main factor does NOT mean that singing wont help!!

 

Ok- it wont always result in a good performance or a win, but it doesn't hurt the team one bit!!!!

 

ffs

 

edit- Oh, and one more point. To those that say "they should be happy to take abuse for the wages they're on"............. it's not their fault that they happen to be good (ish?) at what they do, and what they do happens to pay extremely well.

 

Fine as far as it goes, but totally ignoring the fact that these lads are also in the entertainment business and people pay their hard-earned dosh to be entertained. The reason that the players' pay gets brought up is because of envy by most, but also because if those who earn less than them and make the sacrifice of their money to watch them, then they are entitled to see maximum effort from the players. If the players visibly aren't trying, the fans are perfectly entitled to complain. If the players look as if they are trying hard, then I am really hard pressed to remember the crowd getting on their backs.

 

Of course, many have decided that both the entertainment value is lacking, (especially at home where they have witnessed just one win by two thirds of the way through the season) and that value is missing two. The cost of attending without a ST is a fiasco, especially as we paid mostly to watch the youth team having a run out which was available free last season.

 

Apart from the ST holders who have already paid, so might as well go, many others have stayed away. So a large proportion of those at the stadium have already paid to watch the team and naturally they are fully entitled to be upset and frustrated at what they are having to endure every home game. They gambled on laying out money in advance, not knowing that what they would recieve in return would be a pale shadow of what they had previously got in return.

 

One thing is plain though. They won't make that mistake again next year if Lowe is still here.

[saint1977]

I don't sit in the Northam so probably any really heavy stuff was from there but didn't hear anything particularly out of the ordinary in the Kingsland. Certainly no worse than the reaction when any other soft last gasp goals have been let in - ie Preston home last season.

 

I don't see the point in having a pop at the players personally - but have a pop at the board at the final whistle.

[lordswoodsaints]

abusing players has been going on for donkeys,in fact my old man was well known for it,one of his 'claim to fames' is that he nearly had a fight with micky channon on the touchline because he was giving him so much stick :-) it was the late 60's/early 70's? and channon was a young lad,he had spent most of the game on his arse and generally played sh1te and was substituted,my old man decided to let him know as he walked past and channon tried to get to him to punch him,my old man tried to get on the touchline and they were both held back and nothing came of it.

it didnt do channon any harm and he went on to play for england and have a great career.........it also gave my old man a great story to tell his grand kids:-)

fvck em i say,when they take the job on they know what to expect.sometimes things are bad,but most of the time things are great for them.

[derry]

I don't sit in the Northam so probably any really heavy stuff was from there but didn't hear anything particularly out of the ordinary in the Kingsland. Certainly no worse than the reaction when any other soft last gasp goals have been let in - ie Preston home last season.

 

I don't see the point in having a pop at the players personally - but have a pop at the board at the final whistle.

 

Does anybody sit in the Northam?

 

I can fully understand the frustrations fans feel about players not performing.

 

For example, now we are playing two strikers, When McGoldrick has the ball Saganowski is in close support, the other way round McGoldrick is miles away.

 

Lallana doesn't like wide right, roams all over the place and looks at times that in his eight years at Saints he has learnt nothing about the game and the importance of width.

 

The manager picks teams that defy common sense, we have only one player on the right side that hits virtually all our crosses in from barely into the opponents half, we never get to the byeline on the right side and rarely on the left.

 

Players that are playing badly are not substituted, and better ones are, substitutions are not made, or better players are kept on the bench.

 

When Henderson went off we should have immediately gone wide but didn't until after half time. Lallana didn't even appreciate the importance of trying to pull the ten men wide and persistently came inside despite being told to play down the line.

 

One defender marking one forward v Sheff Wed, Nobody up when there are corners against us, better last match. Players never gambling or going on decoy runs, the ball crossed deep and nobody on the far post. I could go on and on.

 

All these things are bloody elementary FFS. Yet we see them time and time again, small wonder we are bottom of the league, nobody seems to be aware that these things are basic and win matches.

 

The supporters can see and appreciate all this but the so called professional players and coaches seem oblivious of these fundamentals. No wonder the frustration boils over.

Edited 6 February, 2009 by derry

[Teddy Nutkins]

Does anybody sit in the Northam?

 

I can fully understand the frustrations fans feel about players not performing.

 

For example, now we are playing two strikers, When McGoldrick has the ball Saganowski is in close support, the other way round McGoldrick is miles away.

 

Lallana doesn't like wide right, roams all over the place and looks at times that in his eight years at Saints he has learnt nothing about the game and the importance of width.

 

The manager picks teams that defy common sense, we have only one player on the right side that hits virtually all our crosses in from barely into the opponents half, we never get to the byeline on the right side and rarely on the left.

 

Players that are playing badly are not substituted, and better ones are, substitutions are not made, or better players are kept on the bench.

 

When Henderson went off we should have mmediately gone wide but didn't until after half time. Lallana didn't even appreciate the importance of trying to pull the ten men wide and persistently came inside despite being told to play down the line.

 

One defender marking one forward v Sheff Wed, Nobody up when there are corners against us, better last match. Players never gambling or going on decoy runs, the ball crossed deep and nobody on the far post. I could go on and on.

 

All these things are bloody elementary FFS. Yet we see them time and time again, small wonder we are bottom of the league, nobody seems to be aware that these things are basic and win matches.

 

The supporters can see and appreciate all this but the so called professional players and coaches seem oblivious of these fundamentals. No wonder the frustration boils over.

 

Agree with all this Derry, i start to question my own knowledge of the game, when what appears to be simple solutions are not put in place.It could be the fact that i know Jack about the game anyway. I could forgive G.B to a degree as alot of people said he liked a drink:rolleyes:, so simple solutions are a little more complicated.

FWIW, Derry i enjoy reading your posts on the football and it appears we sing the same songs in church.:cool:

[Weston Super Saint]

Fans fault again.

 

FFS we really are the worst fans in the world ™.

[derry]

[/b]

 

Agree with all this Derry, i start to question my own knowledge of the game, when what appears to be simple solutions are not put in place.It could be the fact that i know Jack about the game anyway. I could forgive G.B to a degree as alot of people said he liked a drink:rolleyes:, so simple solutions are a little more complicated.

FWIW, Derry i enjoy reading your posts on the football and it appears we sing the same songs in church.:cool:

 

The game is simple, that is how I learnt it and learnt and applied coaching. The professionals I've talked to always treated it that way. Maybe I was just lucky. Danny Blanchflower was my best example of a proactive player.

 

What really hacks me off is the way that old time players seemed to understand the simplicity of the game but the present generation seem to know nothing. The way some of them play, and the way the coaches don't seem to know either how to play, or what is their best team. When players are not playing appropriately the coaches never seem to pick up on it.

 

At half time Brian O'Neill was moaning about the lack of width against ten men and the need to get BWP on wide. What surprised me was we didn't play him wide right.

 

For me the simplest team in the country is Man Utd, Ferguson is ruthless and the players either do it his way or else.

 

I think I may have worked out who you are, is there a lane with your name in it near the old football ground. Did you go to the old Tauntons?

[sotonist]

McLaggon

Lallana

James

Gillett

McGoldrick

 

None of these were proven first team players at the start of the season. I call that inexperienced. Apart from the recent games when donkey Wotten has played we have selected the likes of Molyneuex, Smith, Golbern, Mills, Lancashire, Paterson, Morgan as well and that is the main reason for the current league position.

 

most of them are around 21 years old now though. we can't keep treating Mcgoldrick, Gillett, and Lallana as if they are babies. If they were genuine outstanding talents they would have been knocking on the first team door years ago. What we've actually got is a bunch of very average kids at this level and what's galls me is that these are kids we were grooming for the premiership.

 

Paterson, Gobern, and McClaggon are younger and Schneiderlin is new to english football, so they can have a pass.

[Chez]

I think the Saints fans have been extremely patient with the players and none of the young players other than McGoldrick have been given any stick at all from the Itchen.

 

McLaggan was bloody awful on Tuesday and yet fans still seemed happy to clap him off the field when he was overduly subbed. I think that shows there are plenty out there more than willing to accept that the young players should get more leeway. I don't think any damage has been done to any of the young players by dropping them in at the deep end. Those that have failed now know they need to improve and not swan around in the reserves thinkig they are better than they are.

 

As for me I gave Wotton a mouthful on Tuesday when he hoofed a ball into row z whilst being under no pressure at all. I think he'll survive though. I also gave McGoldrick an almightly ear bashing for not challenging for a header (perhaps wrongly as he may have been given offside if he had done so) - he'll get over it I'm sure.

 

Far too much worrying about our `poor youngsters'. I am certain they are all absolutely delighted to be thrown to the lions early. As a young player all you ever want is the chance to play and the chance to show you can do it at a higher level.

[Weston Saint]

The game is simple, that is how I learnt it and learnt and applied coaching. The professionals I've talked to always treated it that way. Maybe I was just lucky. Danny Blanchflower was my best example of a proactive player.

 

What really hacks me off is the way that old time players seemed to understand the simplicity of the game but the present generation seem to know nothing. The way some of them play, and the way the coaches don't seem to know either how to play, or what is their best team. When players are not playing appropriately the coaches never seem to pick up on it.

 

At half time Brian O'Neill was moaning about the lack of width against ten men and the need to get BWP on wide. What surprised me was we didn't play him wide right.

 

For me the simplest team in the country is Man Utd, Ferguson is ruthless and the players either do it his way or else.

 

I think I may have worked out who you are, is there a lane with your name in it near the old football ground. Did you go to the old Tauntons?

Can't blame the players if they are told to play that way. Remember our conversation just before the beginning of the Swansea game when I had spoken to someone who knew the instructions on how the players were told to play. No width then. I am told a certain player who is getting some stick of late was told to continue to play the was he was.

 

I believe it is down to the coach.

[hypochondriac]

Can't blame the players if they are told to play that way. Remember our conversation just before the beginning of the Swansea game when I had spoken to someone who knew the instructions on how the players were told to play. No width then. I am told a certain player who is getting some stick of late was told to continue to play the was he was.

 

I believe it is down to the coach.

 

Is it possible to name the player? Then it may make more sense.

[Chez]

Is it possible to name the player? Then it may make more sense.

 

Lallana. He is quite clearly not a wide player - never was never will be - should be played off the lead striker (in a 4-4-2) or in the hole (in our 4-3-3).

 

Lallana has not played well since he came back from injury, but playing him out wide is pointless. He most effective when he is seeing the ball a lot. he is our most talented player but only in posession. Other players like Surman are far better makign runs when they don;t have the ball and they are the sort of players you want running up and down the line all day.

Edited 6 February, 2009 by Chez

[derry]

Can't blame the players if they are told to play that way. Remember our conversation just before the beginning of the Swansea game when I had spoken to someone who knew the instructions on how the players were told to play. No width then. I am told a certain player who is getting some stick of late was told to continue to play the was he was.

 

I believe it is down to the coach.

 

That diamond wasn't bad, I know I was very sceptical Ron, but it sort of worked, the lack of width was masked a bit by the good work rate.

 

Against Sheffield it was a different kettle of fish, they were playing pretty flat, no high work rate, with McLaggon wide left but narrow on the right. After they were down to ten he was supposed to play wide right but Wotte kept signalling him to get out on the line, whilst he was a bit better, he kept coming inside.

 

I do blame the coach, but he should have taken him off at half time. He had a pretty poor game. He doesn't seem to have a lot of appreciation. There was yet another long cross that cleared the defence, he was on the near post with the mob. It would have been ideal for anybody hanging back on the far post.

 

I think our position makes it impossible to make excuses for players who are not cutting it.

[derry]

Lallana. He is quite clearly not a wide player - never was never will be - should be played off the lead striker (in a 4-4-2) or in the hole (in our 4-3-3).

 

Lallana has not played well since he came back from injury, but playing him out wide is pointless. He most effective when he is seeing the ball a lot. he is our most talented player but only in posession. Other players like Surman are far better makign runs when they don;t have the ball and they are the sort of players you want running up and down the line all day.

 

Ever since his U21 exposure he has been pretty inneffectual. If he isn't picked in his favourite position, he shouldn't be picked at all. Trying to fit him in somewhere is rediculous. The time is here that everybody either performs or they are out. We can't afford potential luxuries.

[OldNick]

I think we were playing our best football when lallana was playing in the hole.The problem was then as now we were not getting results.He needs to address his tackling heading and shooting.His footwork is great it is just he doesnt do the stuff in the box.He has so much talent but it needs to be brought to hte surface.

[Weston Super Saint]

I think we were playing our best football when lallana was playing in the hole.The problem was then as now we were not getting results.He needs to address his tackling heading and shooting.His footwork is great it is just he doesnt do the stuff in the box.He has so much talent but it needs to be brought to hte surface.

 

Crazy statement of the year award!

 

Surely we were playing our best football when we reached the FA Cup final, finished 8th in the PL and won a European spot?

[Guided Missile]

Brought to mind this article:

 

"In 1980, callow and fresh out of grammar school, I wanted to become a "squaddie". My background - rare among recruits of that era - meant I came in for some fearful abuse from my training corporals. They made my life hell. And that was part of their job.

They realised that if I left training and went to my regiment with my grammar-school mores and methods still intact then I would not have lasted five minutes. They had to make me change - in essence, conform - while I was still in their "care". It was better by far that the corrective bullying be done by those training corporals rather than by others once in the regiment. I thank them for not having a "zero tolerance of bullying".

The army needs soldiers who can hack it when the chips are down and who can put up with any amount of pain, discomfort, provocation and stress when they arrive in the Iraqs and Afghanistans of this world. Any recruit who cannot take "instances of abuse" in training should not be in the army. And those who cannot take the abuse will leave while still in training. Both the individual and the army are then better off."

[Nineteen Canteen]

I agree with Weston on this wholeheartedly and it is totally counterproductive as young professional adults or not it will sow seeds of self doubt and strip them of confidence and make them nervous players and in their eagerness to please to fans will take on to much and make matters worse.

 

Any psychologist will tell you that boys actually don't mentally mature until around the age of 21 and anyone who has bought up a teenage lad will tell you at times it's like bringing up a 5 year old as they seem incapable of learning from their mistakes or capable of thinking of more than one thing at a time. Actually, its worse as a 5 year old will listen and learn where as the older teenager will dismiss most advice in attempt to go through that difficult phase of finding their independence and all the angst that goes with it. Their ability to make poor decisions is well known why do you think insurance premiums are so loaded against them as many at that age can't assess the risks when driving so why should footballers being any different? Their natural talent is just part of becoming a professional and at this age their brains have not fully developed cognitive function. So unless you are prepared to see it form their poistion on the pitch and take into account thier age your rant's are very damaging, fact.

 

I would also say that poor performances are in direct correlation with the mood of the crowd and the increasing anti-lowe hysteria and general hostility towards the board and unhappiness about the club has to have a negative impact on the players. They are going to try harder, take more risks in their honest desire to turn things around and soemtimes as in life that can actually work against you, if the harder you try the greater kicking you get when you you inevitably make more mistakes as you push yourself to/beyond your limits.

 

Fans are deluded if they think all these protests against Lowe even if kept away from the ground are not impacting the players. They are because they will read or hear about it in the media and increasingly as home games they must feel like proverbial 11 christains being thrown to the lions not to mention the other 11 gladiators making sure the lions get a good feed. You older fans will be able to compute you are having a go at Lowe and not the team but the younger players will take it personally and it will psychologically affect their performance regardless of your thoughts to the contrary. If for no other reason its why the demonstration's are so counterproductive and actually contribute more to this club's slide than any decision by the board.

 

Weston Saint, thank for your offer btw to act as a go-between between myself and SG. I didn't respond as I had used my 3 posts and also because a moderator had offered the same service but then did not respond to my email to the site marked for their attention. If the offer still stands I will contact you. Many thanks

[Nineteen Canteen]

Crazy statement of the year award!

 

Surely we were playing our best football when we reached the FA Cup final, finished 8th in the PL and won a European spot?

 

Even those with a most basic cognitive function would appreciate Nickh is alluding to the current situation and not 6 years ago, otherwise you are even wrong as surely it would have been 83/84.

[Weston Super Saint]

Even those with a most basic cognitive function would appreciate Nickh is alluding to the current situation and not 6 years ago, otherwise you are even wrong as surely it would have been 83/84.

 

LOL.

 

So you mean we've played some good football this season.

 

I must have been hibernating.

[Weston Saint]

Weston Saint, thank for your offer btw to act as a go-between between myself and SG. I didn't respond as I had used my 3 posts and also because a moderator had offered the same service but then did not respond to my email to the site marked for their attention. If the offer still stands I will contact you. Many thanks

The offer is still open.

[OldNick]

Crazy statement of the year award!

 

Surely we were playing our best football when we reached the FA Cup final, finished 8th in the PL and won a European spot?

And you will be the only person stupid enough to really think I meant of all time.

[derry]

I think we were playing our best football when lallana was playing in the hole.The problem was then as now we were not getting results.He needs to address his tackling heading and shooting.His footwork is great it is just he doesnt do the stuff in the box.He has so much talent but it needs to be brought to hte surface.

 

You are quite right, but he had to be playing well which he isn't. If his only position is as a striker or support striker there has to be an end product.

 

Whatever and wherever he is playing, he plays in a way which is counter productive both for himself and the team. He was told by a Saints coach early on in the season that he did too much running about and needed to be more discerning about getting into dangerous positions. Better not more was the message, that message has not been taken on board.

 

One thing that really concerns me is that he is playing like a playground footballer where ball possession is the end product.

[Weston Super Saint]

And you will be the only person stupid enough to really think I meant of all time.

 

Oh, I see!

 

Pretty sure you made posts earlier on in the season stating how we were playing some of the best football EVER, and the Dutch style really suited us, and we were really going to go places etc etc blah blah.....

Edited 6 February, 2009 by Weston Super Saint

[red&white56]

Someone like Ryan Smith might be on £40-50k a year, about the same as a decent teacher these days.

 

Frank Lampard is on £130k per week. Joe Cole £90k a week.

 

So you should expect Smith to be about 50 -100 times worse than Frank Lampard ad Joe Cole. And he is.

 

So no point giving him stick is there when he can't do what Joe Cole can.

 

If Saganowski has a shocker fair enough. Lancashire? Smith? Spiderman? Lallana... they are still learning and when people learn they tend to make mistakes.

 

The missus is a decent teacher and she doesn't earn £40-50K, try £30-35K, and she's been teaching for a lot longer than these boys have been kicking a football to get to this level.

 

Fottballers are overpaid - isn't that why we're almost in admin ??

[Legod Third Coming]

The missus is a decent teacher and she doesn't earn £40-50K, try £30-35K, and she's been teaching for a lot longer than these boys have been kicking a football to get to this level.

 

Fottballers are overpaid - isn't that why we're almost in admin ??

 

Add her pension and the benefit of six weeks holiday though...

 

I agree, but the point I am making is that a £50k a year footballer should be expected to be 100 times worse than a bloke who earns 100 times his salary!

 

We pay peanuts but some fans expect Pele to turn out every game alongside Maradonna with Stevie Gerrard in the hole!!

 

Like I said above, shout all you want at Ryan Smith, but it's like shouting at a Robin Reliant and expecting it to become a Ferrari.

 

Some of our footballers are not very good, shouting at them won't improve them.

[Wes Tender]

I agree with Weston on this wholeheartedly and it is totally counterproductive as young professional adults or not it will sow seeds of self doubt and strip them of confidence and make them nervous players and in their eagerness to please to fans will take on to much and make matters worse...............

 

I would also say that poor performances are in direct correlation with the mood of the crowd and the increasing anti-lowe hysteria and general hostility towards the board and unhappiness about the club has to have a negative impact on the players. They are going to try harder, take more risks in their honest desire to turn things around and soemtimes as in life that can actually work against you, if the harder you try the greater kicking you get when you you inevitably make more mistakes as you push yourself to/beyond your limits.

 

Fans are deluded if they think all these protests against Lowe even if kept away from the ground are not impacting the players. They are because they will read or hear about it in the media and increasingly as home games they must feel like proverbial 11 christains being thrown to the lions not to mention the other 11 gladiators making sure the lions get a good feed. You older fans will be able to compute you are having a go at Lowe and not the team but the younger players will take it personally and it will psychologically affect their performance regardless of your thoughts to the contrary. If for no other reason its why the demonstration's are so counterproductive and actually contribute more to this club's slide than any decision by the board.

 

 

You're an intelligent guy, Nineteen. So why can't you just join up the dots and arrive at the proper conclusion, that the crazy experiment that was Lowe's brainchild was invevitably going to produce the result that it has?

 

Many of us predicted that this would happen. We expressed doubts early on about the risks involved with playing the youngsters to this extent. We pointed out that they had been in a culture of winning most matches against their contemporaries and regular defeat might dent their confidence. We also pointed out that the best policy was surely to blood them a few at time when they were ready and even then for part of a match early on to see how they fared. We stressed that the best results would come from playing a mixture of older experienced players alongside the most promising youngsters, that mix producing both freshness combined with wisdom, speed mixed with guile and the perfect environment from which the youngsters would learn from the seniors.

 

But oh no; Lowe wanted to think outside of the box, to ignore the tried and tested wisdom, to be the innovator. So he ignored everything that made sense and even decided that to make things really left field, he'd appoint foreign coaches with nil experience in British football and have the youngsters play a style of football alien to the mainstream game at this level in British football too.

 

It has all gone terribly wrong as was predictable. Can't you see that debating whether it is us the paying customers who are culpable is totally wide of the mark? All I am asking you to see, is that it didn't need to be like this. That Lowe has made it so and is therefore the one who should take the blame for it all. Now, I know that Lowe's personality will never have him admit that he has ever made a mistake, but I'd like to think that this character deficiency was one that wasn't widespread amongst the actual fanbase.

 

So do you agree broadly with my assessment or not? If not, I'd be interested as to where our opinions differ.

[sperm_john]

part and parcel of the game imo

[Tamesaint]

You're an intelligent guy, Nineteen. So why can't you just join up the dots and arrive at the proper conclusion, that the crazy experiment that was Lowe's brainchild was invevitably going to produce the result that it has?

 

Many of us predicted that this would happen. We expressed doubts early on about the risks involved with playing the youngsters to this extent. We pointed out that they had been in a culture of winning most matches against their contemporaries and regular defeat might dent their confidence. We also pointed out that the best policy was surely to blood them a few at time when they were ready and even then for part of a match early on to see how they fared. We stressed that the best results would come from playing a mixture of older experienced players alongside the most promising youngsters, that mix producing both freshness combined with wisdom, speed mixed with guile and the perfect environment from which the youngsters would learn from the seniors.

 

But oh no; Lowe wanted to think outside of the box, to ignore the tried and tested wisdom, to be the innovator. So he ignored everything that made sense and even decided that to make things really left field, he'd appoint foreign coaches with nil experience in British football and have the youngsters play a style of football alien to the mainstream game at this level in British football too.

 

It has all gone terribly wrong as was predictable. Can't you see that debating whether it is us the paying customers who are culpable is totally wide of the mark? All I am asking you to see, is that it didn't need to be like this. That Lowe has made it so and is therefore the one who should take the blame for it all. Now, I know that Lowe's personality will never have him admit that he has ever made a mistake, but I'd like to think that this character deficiency was one that wasn't widespread amongst the actual fanbase.

 

So do you agree broadly with my assessment or not? If not, I'd be interested as to where our opinions differ.

 

Excellent post. I would not hold my breath expecting a sensible answer from him if I were you.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

abusing players has been going on for donkeys,in fact my old man was well known for it,one of his 'claim to fames' is that he nearly had a fight with micky channon on the touchline because he was giving him so much stick :-) it was the late 60's/early 70's? and channon was a young lad,he had spent most of the game on his arse and generally played sh1te and was substituted,my old man decided to let him know as he walked past and channon tried to get to him to punch him,my old man tried to get on the touchline and they were both held back and nothing came of it.

it didnt do channon any harm and he went on to play for england and have a great career.........it also gave my old man a great story to tell his grand kids:-)

fvck em i say,when they take the job on they know what to expect.sometimes things are bad,but most of the time things are great for them.

 

In the early days Micky Channon spent most of his time falling over and I remember "Docker's Corner" giving him fearful stick and calling him "Doreen" throughout several games. He seemed to come through it OK. These youngsters are happy to take some of the better trappings of the game (take a look at the Staplewood car park on training days) and yet can't handle a bit of stick from the punter. As long as the abuse is not offensive a little bit of terrace banter is just part of the game - christ we all dish it out to the linesmen and refs. If you are old enough to drive a 50 grand car you're old enough to get some stick in my book.

[Yobcurl]

Pretty much the whole Saints squad were out on the **** together in town last night - and got quite a bit of stick.

[BadgerBadger]

I think they get off likely - we're a quiet bunch of supporters compared to some, imagine if they played in Itlay or South America!!

[krissyboy31]

I think they get off likely - we're a quiet bunch of supporters compared to some, imagine if they played in Itlay or South America!!

 

I think your right! Half of them would have been shot by now in Colombia.

[Tamesaint]

Pretty much the whole Saints squad were out on the **** together in town last night - and got quite a bit of stick.

 

Can you give any details??

[bridge too far]

When my children were teenagers they wanted to be all grown up, as do most teenagers. Some of their friends' parents wrapped their children in cotton wool, protecting them from the nasty world outside. I never did. I told them that, if they wanted the perceived trappings of being grown up, they had to be able to deal with the crappy downside of being grown up too. It was their decision.

 

As a consequence, they learnt pretty quickly to deal with bullying, name-calling, sometimes unfair expectations etc. whereas many of the cotton-wool kids couldn't hack real life at all. My children rapidly learnt from their mistakes although the lessons were sometimes harsh.

 

If young adults are treated like adults they'll learn to act like adults. If they're mollycoddled they'll remain immature.

 

If our young boys were in any other walk of life, they'd probably get stick if they made mistakes and they'd learn from it. Think of life in the Forces, for example.

 

I'm not advocating racist or homophobic abuse, but I see no harm in fans expressing their opinions. If they're taking 'grown up' wages they must expect 'grown up' comments from the crowd.

 

So there endeth the lesson from a mother of three (well rounded) adults. I might add that my social worker and probation service friends support my approach.

[Weston Saint]

When my children were teenagers they wanted to be all grown up, as do most teenagers. Some of their friends' parents wrapped their children in cotton wool, protecting them from the nasty world outside. I never did. I told them that, if they wanted the perceived trappings of being grown up, they had to be able to deal with the crappy downside of being grown up too. It was their decision.

 

As a consequence, they learnt pretty quickly to deal with bullying, name-calling, sometimes unfair expectations etc. whereas many of the cotton-wool kids couldn't hack real life at all. My children rapidly learnt from their mistakes although the lessons were sometimes harsh.

 

If young adults are treated like adults they'll learn to act like adults. If they're mollycoddled they'll remain immature.

 

If our young boys were in any other walk of life, they'd probably get stick if they made mistakes and they'd learn from it. Think of life in the Forces, for example.

 

I'm not advocating racist or homophobic abuse, but I see no harm in fans expressing their opinions. If they're taking 'grown up' wages they must expect 'grown up' comments from the crowd.

 

So there endeth the lesson from a mother of three (well rounded) adults. I might add that my social worker and probation service friends support my approach.

It is all about balance.

[um pahars]

It is all about balance.

 

As almost everyone on here has said.

 

You started this thread and then disappeared, without letting us know what was said, the context, how widespread it was etc.

 

Most people on here agree wholeheratedly that OTT abuse is not the answer, but they have also said that that is not what they have expereinced at SMS this season.

 

So would you like to clarify your first post, as at the moment it looks as though you've just thrown a hand grenade in and then retired???

 

If it was a few individuals, then that is not the same as what some are trying to make out on here.

[up and away]

When my children were teenagers they wanted to be all grown up, as do most teenagers. Some of their friends' parents wrapped their children in cotton wool, protecting them from the nasty world outside. I never did. I told them that, if they wanted the perceived trappings of being grown up, they had to be able to deal with the crappy downside of being grown up too. It was their decision.

 

As a consequence, they learnt pretty quickly to deal with bullying, name-calling, sometimes unfair expectations etc. whereas many of the cotton-wool kids couldn't hack real life at all. My children rapidly learnt from their mistakes although the lessons were sometimes harsh.

 

If young adults are treated like adults they'll learn to act like adults. If they're mollycoddled they'll remain immature.

 

If our young boys were in any other walk of life, they'd probably get stick if they made mistakes and they'd learn from it. Think of life in the Forces, for example.

 

I'm not advocating racist or homophobic abuse, but I see no harm in fans expressing their opinions. If they're taking 'grown up' wages they must expect 'grown up' comments from the crowd.

 

So there endeth the lesson from a mother of three (well rounded) adults. I might add that my social worker and probation service friends support my approach.

 

I really doubt you would get any argument from any semi intelligent person for that approach, but that does not directly translate to the issue here?

All the youngsters we have playing in the youth team could have been brought up with that approach, but that does not mean that booing them would not impact upon their performance? Even senior professionals will suffer from booing? Nerves affect players in different ways, but it is a very big part in allowing any natural talent to perform. As time goes by this effect will diminish with most players, but I can't recall any young player where booing has improved their performance, in fact the opposite.

[bridge too far]

I really doubt you would get any argument from any semi intelligent person for that approach, but that does not directly translate to the issue here?

All the youngsters we have playing in the youth team could have been brought up with that approach, but that does not mean that booing them would not impact upon their performance? Even senior professionals will suffer from booing? Nerves affect players in different ways, but it is a very big part in allowing any natural talent to perform. As time goes by this effect will diminish with most players, but I can't recall any young player where booing has improved their performance, in fact the opposite.

 

Look - I feel desperately sorry for these boys, thrust into a man's world. It's a bizarre experiment and it's gone badly wrong.

 

But you know what - when I was a young dancer (performing before a paying audience I might add), if I made a mistake / fell over and heard groans and criticisms, well I just had to pick myself up and learn to try not to make the same mistake again. And be determined to improve. Not run off stage crying and turning up next time scared sh*tless.

 

And I DID learn and I DID improve. I also became wiser.

 

Different 'sport' but same scenario don't you agree?

[docker-p]

I would also say that poor performances are in direct correlation with the mood of the crowd and the increasing anti-lowe hysteria and general hostility towards the board and unhappiness about the club has to have a negative impact on the players.

 

Fans are deluded if they think all these protests against Lowe even if kept away from the ground are not impacting the players. They are because they will read or hear about it in the media and increasingly as home games they must feel like proverbial 11 christains being thrown to the lions not to mention the other 11 gladiators making sure the lions get a good feed. You older fans will be able to compute you are having a go at Lowe and not the team but the younger players will take it personally and it will psychologically affect their performance regardless of your thoughts to the contrary. If for no other reason its why the demonstration's are so counterproductive and actually contribute more to this club's slide than any decision by the board.

 

Oh FFS !! Here we go again. It's all the fans fault:rolleyes:

If only we passively accepted Lowes brick by brick destruction of our club and didn't rock the boat everything would be fine.

 

This was a thread about abusing players, not about abusing Lowe. But your fanatical backing of Lowe couldn't resist getting in a quick dig at the fans.

[Graffito]

In the early days Micky Channon spent most of his time falling over and I remember "Docker's Corner" giving him fearful stick and calling him "Doreen" throughout several games. He seemed to come through it OK. These youngsters are happy to take some of the better trappings of the game (take a look at the Staplewood car park on training days) and yet can't handle a bit of stick from the punter. As long as the abuse is not offensive a little bit of terrace banter is just part of the game - christ we all dish it out to the linesmen and refs. If you are old enough to drive a 50 grand car you're old enough to get some stick in my book.

 

I seem to remember Channon being called Daisy but I defer to your greater knowledge of all things Saints. Anyway I think you're missing the point. I remember a young Alan Shearer being given stick by some Saints fans away at Highfield Rd one time and he giving it right. But we're talking here about two exceptional characters. Not all players react to criticism in the way that Channon and Shearer did. For a team low on confidence, abuse from the fans (and I'm not saying it happens much at SMS) is not the kind of support it needs. Nor has it anything to do with which cars the players drive. One final observation, it seems to me there are several posters on here that are pretty thin skinned when it comes to criticism but apparently it's ok to give stick to the team they support.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by up and away

I really doubt you would get any argument from any semi intelligent person for that approach, but that does not directly translate to the issue here?

All the youngsters we have playing in the youth team could have been brought up with that approach, but that does not mean that booing them would not impact upon their performance? Even senior professionals will suffer from booing? Nerves affect players in different ways, but it is a very big part in allowing any natural talent to perform. As time goes by this effect will diminish with most players, but I can't recall any young player where booing has improved their performance, in fact the opposite.

Look - I feel desperately sorry for these boys, thrust into a man's world. It's a bizarre experiment and it's gone badly wrong.

 

But you know what - when I was a young dancer (performing before a paying audience I might add), if I made a mistake / fell over and heard groans and criticisms, well I just had to pick myself up and learn to try not to make the same mistake again. And be determined to improve. Not run off stage crying and turning up next time scared sh*tless.

 

And I DID learn and I DID improve. I also became wiser.

 

Different 'sport' but same scenario don't you agree?

 

We have been put in this position because of finances, of that there is little doubt. With the exception of Holmes and Schniederlin who we managed to sweet talk, all the senior pro signings are League 1 players at best.

 

For us in the here and now, I cannot see how the booing will help. Maybe down the line when they have disappeared to other clubs those boo's may reap rewards, but I see little in this for the here and now.

[Gemmel]

but I can't recall any young player where booing has improved their performance, in fact the opposite.

 

mcgoldrick, when he was booed during the game and jeered when he was taken off (Forest i think) was left in no doubt as to the fans view of his effort and performance. I said at the time it wouldn't do him any harm and perhaps he needed it.

 

His next game was his best performance of the season and he scored.

 

So i have to disagree

[Kaiser Soze]

All the players bar none were out on the p1ss last night in in town, lashing it up without a care in the world. A few lads who live and breath this football club had some words and put them very much in place. Understandably they didn't hold back. Rightly or wrongly Lallana was reduced to tears.