Controversial post alert - ignore if you like Lowe

[saint1977]

Not sure why you blame him for the tommac business. My understanding is that the Lowe group were in touch with him first (after he had been rebuffed by the Exec over the alleged agent to Allen episode). Wilde and Crouch would not play ball over selling their shares. It was only later when he started posting on here. In fact, following his first post on here I actually replied "is that you Tom" but later edited when I realised it was and I might be breaching confidences. Crouch's involvement with him direct was a little later.

 

Thanks for the update Weston, you know a bit more about the inner sanctums of SFC and if my perception was wrong than I apologise to anyone concerned including Leon. I do remember Tommac being an absolute plank on here though. Crikey, the stories we've seen over the last 2-3 years on this site and the ones before it would make a great book!

[um pahars]

That was all conducted in the boadroom, not on local radio or via demos. Personally I find the 2 things totally different.

 

And as I posted above, I have to say with quotes like this, then it is fair to question your lack of objectivity and motivation.

 

You must also have a very poor memory as Lowe and Wilde's comeback was played out in a number of media outlets, leaks, tittle tattle and spin.

 

Those who were part of the SOS group were privy to a potential comeback way before anything was official (maybe as early as December/January). It also made it's way into a number of media outlets before anything was officially announced. And then it was splashed all over the media until it was concluded.

 

It had not gone unnoticed at St Mary's either and I remember at Central Hall in early March that Pearson and others were well aware that Wilde and Lowe were vehemently against his appointment, and that they were also contemplating a comeback.

 

I'm sure Pearson, and maybe the other coaches and even some players, felt really comfortable knowing that he/they would have potential new bosses in the summer!!!!!

 

Now of course there may be the same issues this time around with regards upsetting the apple cart, but let's please not pretend that last summer was any different in general context and substance.

 

Last year there was a clear majority and as I remember it there was a quick, clean changeover once we finished the season. I don't remember a load of unfounded rumours being spread on Lowe's behalf when Crouch was chairman?

 

There was no clear majority when they first approached the Club in mid March.

 

There was also no clear idea of their intentions, unless Crouch & Co were lying to the Stock Exchange (which I doubt) when they issued their statement in mid March saying that "despite asking Lowe for a detailed proposal setting out his intentions they had not received one".

 

And even when Lowe formally convened the EGM over a month later, he still did not have the support of the majority of shareholders.

 

The rumours of changeover started in late February (maybe even as early as January - maybe some on the SOS team could pin down a date) and then ended come May, so hardly a quick, clean changeover.

 

I don't have problems people holding and espousing different opinions, but I do have a problem with people attempting to rewrite history and applying double standards in their posts, particularly when they themselves are so vociferous in their questioning of people's lack of objectivity and motivation.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

And as I posted above, I have to say with quotes like this, then it is fair to question your lack of objectivity and motivation.

 

You must also have a very poor memory as Lowe and Wilde's comeback was played out in a number of media outlets, leaks, tittle tattle and spin.

 

Those who were part of the SOS group were privy to a potential comeback way before anything was official (maybe as early as December/January). It also made it's way into a number of media outlets before anything was officially announced. And then it was splashed all over the media until it was concluded.

 

It had not gone unnoticed at St Mary's either and I remember at Central Hall in early March that Pearson and others were well aware that Wilde and Lowe were vehemently against his appointment, and that they were also contemplating a comeback.

 

I'm sure Pearson, and maybe the other coaches and even some players, felt really comfortable knowing that he/they would have potential new bosses in the summer!!!!!

 

Now of course there may be the same issues this time around with regards upsetting the apple cart, but let's please not pretend that last summer was any different in general context and substance.

 

 

 

There was no clear majority when they first approached the Club in mid March.

 

There was also no clear idea of their intentions, unless Crouch & Co were lying to the Stock Exchange (which I doubt) when they issued their statement in mid March saying that "despite asking Lowe for a detailed proposal setting out his intentions they had not received one".

 

And even when Lowe formally convened the EGM over a month later, he still did not have the support of the majority of shareholders.

 

The rumours of changeover started in late February (maybe even as early as January - maybe some on the SOS team could pin down a date) and then ended come May, so hardly a quick, clean changeover.

 

I don't have problems people holding and espousing different opinions, but I do have a problem with people attempting to rewrite history and applying double standards in their posts, particularly when they themselves are so vociferous in their questioning of people's lack of objectivity and motivation.

 

I just love that last paragraph - sums Jonah up to a tee.

Sure we all have agendas - I can admit to mine but he as sure as hell can't admit to his.

[Snowballs2]

I think (this is NOT a personal attack ) that Jonah has both a strange and selective memory of past events, for whatever reason.

I can only assume that his opinions are based on either personal or pecunary advantage in some way...or he just likes to be both belligerent or different from the realms of reality

[saintjay77]

Is this argument still going?

 

My Opinion now for what its worth is I dont realy give a monkeys who is in charge any more and results on the pitch will only surprise me again when we start winning. So in the mean time I keep my head low as a saints supporter and try to keep believing that one day we will be the team that everyone tips to fail while we go on to succeed against the thoughts of fans and pundits around the country. If we ever push on from there then great but right now I would be over the moon to get back to things the way they were.

 

As for who is in charge? Does it really matter any more? For 1 to be in control it will have to be because they have teamed up with 1 of the others so we will always have a split because Lowe, Wilde or Crouch is still pulling the strings. It doesnt matter what side of the fence anyone sits on any more as the fence keeps changing its colours.

 

I just wish there was a definitive way that the fans could pull together in an attempt to attract someone to come and clear the lot of the board out. Old and new they all have there hand in twisting, turning, changing and co cking things up from top to bottom and it will take years to sort it all out. Sooner they are all gone the better IMO.

[Delmary]

I think (this is NOT a personal attack ) that Jonah has both a strange and selective memory of past events, for whatever reason.

I can only assume that his opinions are based on either personal or pecunary advantage in some way...or he just likes to be both belligerent or different from the realms of reality

Misguided loyalty!

[Gordon Mockles]

Misguided loyalty!

 

Or...schizoid!!

 

I don't really mean that Jonah but I do question much of your motivation or reasoning (despite your salient issues regarding Saints gravy train of p*ss poor directors & key share holders!) if you relentlessly defend & support the deadly duo currently stuffing both barrels of the shotgun further & further (mistyped that Fuehrer then! How ironic!) down the throat of Southampton FC.

 

Some serious reasoning & debate going on here (excluding my diatribe, apologies). Again, very good point Trousers.

Edited 6 February, 2009 by Gordon Mockles

[Frank's cousin]

UHm...not so sure, if you look at the 'facts' questioned, for some of these thise is still no eveidence - its just that the speculation has been repeated so many times that its assumed to be true... why up until yesterday, the general consensus on here was that John Corbett had gifted the Jacksons farm to Saints - and no one corrected this as it was used as a way of increasing the the 'deseserved nature of Mary's involvement' - now Mary herself has corrected this ...

 

NO one has lied about this, but there are some who must have known the truth but kept quiet about it as it suited their purpose.... thats the kind of thing that to me is no better that Lowes PR plants.

 

I would hazzard a guess that its become too late for fans to debate this from a truely open minded approach, because quite simply there is too much speculation presented as fact, too much beliefe in hearsay and gossip that over the years has become 'the truth' that has polarized opinion to such an extent that nothing is given a fair hearing.... and as Duncan freely admits, he has an agenda - he believes Crouch is teh best of teh bunch and will say and do anything to remove lowe and install crouch as its teh ebst alternative - fair enough he's being honest about it - I happen to disagree with him as I believe thisis not te time to once again listen to the fan friendly stuff, that still appears to have little or no substance, no matter what we see as teh failings of teh current board, just my opinion.....I however have no influence, so does that mean I haev no agenda? depends, really, at the end of the day, I dont think my opinion matters diddly squat to anyone, and certainly wont change the minds I enjoy debating this with most, because they are entrenched in their views... so can you call that an agenda? I dont think so, just an opinion.

[alpine_saint]

UHm...not so sure, if you look at the 'facts' questioned, for some of these thise is still no eveidence - its just that the speculation has been repeated so many times that its assumed to be true... why up until yesterday, the general consensus on here was that John Corbett had gifted the Jacksons farm to Saints - and no one corrected this as it was used as a way of increasing the the 'deseserved nature of Mary's involvement' - now Mary herself has corrected this ...

 

NO one has lied about this, but there are some who must have known the truth but kept quiet about it as it suited their purpose.... thats the kind of thing that to me is no better that Lowes PR plants.

 

I would hazzard a guess that its become too late for fans to debate this from a truely open minded approach, because quite simply there is too much speculation presented as fact, too much beliefe in hearsay and gossip that over the years has become 'the truth' that has polarized opinion to such an extent that nothing is given a fair hearing.... and as Duncan freely admits, he has an agenda - he believes Crouch is teh best of teh bunch and will say and do anything to remove lowe and install crouch as its teh ebst alternative - fair enough he's being honest about it - I happen to disagree with him as I believe thisis not te time to once again listen to the fan friendly stuff, that still appears to have little or no substance, no matter what we see as teh failings of teh current board, just my opinion.....I however have no influence, so does that mean I haev no agenda? depends, really, at the end of the day, I dont think my opinion matters diddly squat to anyone, and certainly wont change the minds I enjoy debating this with most, because they are entrenched in their views... so can you call that an agenda? I dont think so, just an opinion.

 

How bizarre reading you lecture on the issue of entrenched views...

[saintjay77]

UHm...not so sure, if you look at the 'facts' questioned, for some of these thise is still no eveidence - its just that the speculation has been repeated so many times that its assumed to be true... why up until yesterday, the general consensus on here was that John Corbett had gifted the Jacksons farm to Saints - and no one corrected this as it was used as a way of increasing the the 'deseserved nature of Mary's involvement' - now Mary herself has corrected this ...

 

NO one has lied about this, but there are some who must have known the truth but kept quiet about it as it suited their purpose.... thats the kind of thing that to me is no better that Lowes PR plants.

 

I would hazzard a guess that its become too late for fans to debate this from a truely open minded approach, because quite simply there is too much speculation presented as fact, too much beliefe in hearsay and gossip that over the years has become 'the truth' that has polarized opinion to such an extent that nothing is given a fair hearing.... and as Duncan freely admits, he has an agenda - he believes Crouch is teh best of teh bunch and will say and do anything to remove lowe and install crouch as its teh ebst alternative - fair enough he's being honest about it - I happen to disagree with him as I believe thisis not te time to once again listen to the fan friendly stuff, that still appears to have little or no substance, no matter what we see as teh failings of teh current board, just my opinion.....I however have no influence, so does that mean I haev no agenda? depends, really, at the end of the day, I dont think my opinion matters diddly squat to anyone, and certainly wont change the minds I enjoy debating this with most, because they are entrenched in their views... so can you call that an agenda? I dont think so, just an opinion.

 

A similar "fact" that have been used by some just to have a dig at whoever is the disgrace that we havnt recalled our long term loans! It gets spouted about so much that everyone ends up beliving its true and goes on a witch hunt based on a load of balls that was dreamt up on here. On that point I do admit that even some of Lowes most opposed have tried to put the real facts accross but it seems that some people will only hear what they want to hear as it fits in with what they think.

 

I do admit that if some of the planks at the top were not here then we may not have so much of this elemet within our fan base but at the moment I only see other planks to replace the current planks so this point scoring and sniping will continue untill someone comes along that we all agree will take our great club forward.

[Frank's cousin]

How bizarre reading you lecture on the issue of entrenched views...

 

Alpine are you really that much of a simpleton/idiot or are you simply out to provoke? Yes I have entrenched views, I never denied it - and its entrenched on the fence in most things... so what is your problem.... I have never seen you defend your entrenched views with any facts, simply insult, so I think that says more about you than me...

 

PS why dont yopu engage you brain for a change instead of just sniping and respond to say the Jacksons Farm thing hey? too close to the fecking bone?

[hypochondriac]

Alpine are you really that much of a simpleton/idiot or are you simply out to provoke? Yes I have entrenched views' date=' I never denied it - and i[b']ts entrenched on the fence in most things... [/b]so what is your problem.... I have never seen you defend your entrenched views with any facts, simply insult, so I think that says more about you than me...

 

PS why dont yopu engage you brain for a change instead of just sniping and respond to say the Jacksons Farm thing hey? too close to the fecking bone?

 

That was an amusing analogy!

[Frank's cousin]

That was an amusing analogy!

 

True! - I have to admit I am deeply stuck on this fence as I see too much miseray awaiting us on either side..

[alpine_saint]

Alpine are you really that much of a simpleton/idiot or are you simply out to provoke? Yes I have entrenched views, I never denied it - and its entrenched on the fence in most things... so what is your problem.... I have never seen you defend your entrenched views with any facts, simply insult, so I think that says more about you than me...

 

PS why dont yopu engage you brain for a change instead of just sniping and respond to say the Jacksons Farm thing hey? too close to the fecking bone?

 

No, just board shiitless of you taking up server space with reams of endless over-verbose bollllocks, the only aim of which is to take some sort of contrary yet comfortably netural bolllock positon on every subject.

 

If every f**ker came on here tomorrow and started blaming the ghost of Ted Bates for everything, you'd be on here 5 minutes later espousing the opposing view for "ballance". I give you more favourable attention occasionally if there were a shred of passion and emotion in the crap you write...

[Teddy Nutkins]

True! - I have to admit I am deeply stuck on this fence as I see too much miseray awaiting us on either side..

 

I'm confused now Frank, is this fence in a trench, if so you won't be able to see either side.

[Frank's cousin]

No, just board shiitless of you taking up server space with reams of endless over-verbose bollllocks, the only aim of which is to take some sort of contrary yet comfortably netural bolllock positon on every subject.

 

If every f**ker came on here tomorrow and started blaming the ghost of Ted Bates for everything, you'd be on here 5 minutes later espousing the opposing view for "ballance". I give you more favourable attention occasionally if there were a shred of passion and emotion in the crap you write...

 

You are totally corerect Alps... but its called using your OWN brain first before jumping on the bandwagon of ingnorance and drawing onclusions only based on emotion and not understanding and reason.

 

'passion' and 'emotion' ? got to laught mate - you simply dont have a clue do you....

[Frank's cousin]

I'm confused now Frank, is this fence in a trench, if so you won't be able to see either side.

 

Alps would probably say I'm 'stuck' on the fence with the post up my ar... ;-)

 

THis is now getting me confused!

[alpine_saint]

You are totally corerect Alps... but its called using your OWN brain first before jumping on the bandwagon of ingnorance and drawing onclusions only based on emotion and not understanding and reason.

 

'passion' and 'emotion' ? got to laught mate - you simply dont have a clue do you....

 

How truly patronising. You really are the only enlightened and intelligent person amongst our fan-base, arent you :rolleyes:

 

No wonder you empathise so much with Lowe.

[hypochondriac]

True! - I have to admit I am deeply stuck on this fence as I see too much miseray awaiting us on either side..

 

It's a fair comment Frank. I am fully aware that either side would not be ideal. The problem we have is that there is no alternative so we must then choose which option is the least objectionable. With Lowe at the moment we have the protest marches, talk of boycotts and pitch invasions, the continuation of this Dutch and youth policy which is clearly not working and continuing disunity within the club. With Crouch we have the obvious sniping from the sidelines of the shunned party and a small group of disgruntled Lowe supporters.

 

There have been rumours of poor financial management by Crouch but there have also been counter rumours that the bank were happy with Crouch as chairman.With Lowe we have a proven failure on more than on occasion but with Crouch there is no proof that he would fail if he was given another shot. In my opinion his big mistake was Dodd and Gorman but unlike Lowe he recognised his mistake and changed things before it was too late.

 

I think this season has hurt more because it certainly seemed to me like we were beginning to turn the corner. I defy anyone on the pitch after the Sheffield United game to tell me that from that moment they were not feeling more positive about the future. There was a clear unity displayed and with Lowe coming back and acting in the way he has done has made things a lot lot worse than they would be. Regardless of who is right or wrong, the fan base and the club will be a lot more divided with Lowe in charge and that is the key issue for me.

[OldNick]

It's a fair comment Frank. I am fully aware that either side would not be ideal. The problem we have is that there is no alternative so we must then choose which option is the least objectionable. With Lowe at the moment we have the protest marches, talk of boycotts and pitch invasions, the continuation of this Dutch and youth policy which is clearly not working and continuing disunity within the club. With Crouch we have the obvious sniping from the sidelines of the shunned party and a small group of disgruntled Lowe supporters.

 

There have been rumours of poor financial management by Crouch but there have also been counter rumours that the bank were happy with Crouch as chairman.With Lowe we have a proven failure on more than on occasion but with Crouch there is no proof that he would fail if he was given another shot. In my opinion his big mistake was Dodd and Gorman but unlike Lowe he recognised his mistake and changed things before it was too late.

 

I think this season has hurt more because it certainly seemed to me like we were beginning to turn the corner. I defy anyone on the pitch after the Sheffield United game to tell me that from that moment they were not feeling more positive about the future. There was a clear unity displayed and with Lowe coming back and acting in the way he has done has made things a lot lot worse than they would be. Regardless of who is right or wrong, the fan base and the club will be a lot more divided with Lowe in charge and that is the key issue for me.

I agree, on the pitch that day there was a feeling of emotion,30000 saints fans. i still say where they in the games leading up to that and if we have such a game again this season i expect 30000 will turn up again.Watching expectant car crashes always appeals.

Yes RL should have kept NP for 1 reason, he was uniting the fanbase, that in hindsight may be something he regrets.

[hypochondriac]

I agree, on the pitch that day there was a feeling of emotion,30000 saints fans. i still say where they in the games leading up to that and if we have such a game again this season i expect 30000 will turn up again.Watching expectant car crashes always appeals.

Yes RL should have kept NP for 1 reason, he was uniting the fanbase, that in hindsight may be something he regrets.

 

Can you see Nick how Lowe's position has now become untenable? Even on the remote chance that we start to improve, we will not have enough to win promotion to the Prem for a good few years and fans are so irritated by Lowe that they will not allow him the time to get there (and quite right too IMO). Eventually Lowe will have to leave so then it becomes a question of where he is going to leave us when he finally goes. I can't imagine anyone saying that he will leave us in a better position than when he came back in the summer, both in terms of league position and the feel good factor and optimism for the future.

 

With Pearson Lowe had a win win situation if he was kept on. If we were doing better he would be praised for sticking with a manager and learning from his past mistakes. Do badly and he had the perfect excue to bring in the Dutch duo and could hide behind the fact that it was not his appointment. He chose not to do that and it was very foolish because it meant that he had to take all the blame if it went wrong (which it clearly has.)

[OldNick]

Can you see Nick how Lowe's position has now become untenable? Even on the remote chance that we start to improve, we will not have enough to win promotion to the Prem for a good few years and fans are so irritated by Lowe that they will not allow him the time to get there (and quite right too IMO). Eventually Lowe will have to leave so then it becomes a question of where he is going to leave us when he finally goes. I can't imagine anyone saying that he will leave us in a better position than when he came back in the summer, both in terms of league position and the feel good factor and optimism for the future.

 

With Pearson Lowe had a win win situation if he was kept on. If we were doing better he would be praised for sticking with a manager and learning from his past mistakes. Do badly and he had the perfect excue to bring in the Dutch duo and could hide behind the fact that it was not his appointment. He chose not to do that and it was very foolish because it meant that he had to take all the blame if it went wrong (which it clearly has.)

All very true, and I have been critical of RL due to his lack of speed in ridding us of jan.

NP gave fans something that has not been at the club for a long time, but I still do not believe he was that great although I do admit he has done well at Leicester.

RL will always be damaged goods and so admit he would be best gone if there is a better alternative, im not one of the 'anyone but lowe' crew and so at peresent grin and bear it.

[hypochondriac]

All very true, and I have been critical of RL due to his lack of speed in ridding us of jan.

NP gave fans something that has not been at the club for a long time, but I still do not believe he was that great although I do admit he has done well at Leicester.

RL will always be damaged goods and so admit he would be best gone if there is a better alternative, im not one of the 'anyone but lowe' crew and so at peresent grin and bear it.

 

But I would argue that at present Crouch is a better alternative to Lowe. Once agan I freely admit that neither are great but for the reasons I have already outlined surely he is better than this hate figure who will never give any hope within the club.

[OldNick]

But I would argue that at present Crouch is a better alternative to Lowe. Once agan I freely admit that neither are great but for the reasons I have already outlined surely he is better than this hate figure who will never give any hope within the club.

I have experienced LC's conduct as our representative when we played in a friendly and he was hardly an ambassador of our club.now that may not be the norm and it has been alluded to his stewardship when he was here.i dont know the facts of his time but he was not straight with us and did not give us the whole truth. I remeber him saying it was not true that we had settled the Theo deal etc early and then it turned out he had. we should be very picky who we join up with and i again agree RL is not somebody the fans will ever fully rally behind but a run of victories would finish the protests.

[Frank's cousin]

How truly patronising. You really are the only enlightened and intelligent person amongst our fan-base, arent you :rolleyes:

 

No wonder you empathise so much with Lowe.

 

No Alpine, out of the 401 or so paid up members probably about 380 are enlightened and intelligent - but from your POSTS, I dont consider you one of them.... ;-)

[Frank's cousin]

It's a fair comment Frank. I am fully aware that either side would not be ideal. The problem we have is that there is no alternative so we must then choose which option is the least objectionable. With Lowe at the moment we have the protest marches, talk of boycotts and pitch invasions, the continuation of this Dutch and youth policy which is clearly not working and continuing disunity within the club. With Crouch we have the obvious sniping from the sidelines of the shunned party and a small group of disgruntled Lowe supporters.

 

There have been rumours of poor financial management by Crouch but there have also been counter rumours that the bank were happy with Crouch as chairman.With Lowe we have a proven failure on more than on occasion but with Crouch there is no proof that he would fail if he was given another shot. In my opinion his big mistake was Dodd and Gorman but unlike Lowe he recognised his mistake and changed things before it was too late.

 

I think this season has hurt more because it certainly seemed to me like we were beginning to turn the corner. I defy anyone on the pitch after the Sheffield United game to tell me that from that moment they were not feeling more positive about the future. There was a clear unity displayed and with Lowe coming back and acting in the way he has done has made things a lot lot worse than they would be. Regardless of who is right or wrong, the fan base and the club will be a lot more divided with Lowe in charge and that is the key issue for me.

 

 

Thats a very fair assessment Hypo, but there is one telling line for me that probably best describes why I have teh views I do... 'Regardless of who is right or wrong'

 

You are totally correct that whilst Lowe is here there will probably never be any unity amongst fans now, no matter what happens on the pitch... but for me that statement is the one that I have always thought to challenge... I believe in this case both sides have done wrong and done right - in varying proportions for sure, but I also dont think ANYONE should be subjected to abuse or hatred simply because the majority believe its right to do so - especially as teh reasons for that opinion has in the past been based on rumour speculation and gossip often portrayed as fact - and yes that goes for the other side to. Simply by pointing that out, I get teh luvvie tag 0- can live with that, but its the 'blah blah blah ignorance' of some that just get my goat...arhrr I know I should not rise to it, but we are all only ever human. Jeez, even Duncan and I were kicking each other last week, yet i do respect his opinion, even if I cant agre with him!

 

I dont think Crouch is evil or bad, nor MC, just folk who believe that maybe their passion is enough to give them moral victory - I can admire their passion with everybody else, but not the conclusion, as repeated calls for substance have never really yielded anything. Therefore IMHO, I cant see how chnage again right now is going to any good, and suspect that although ther might be a short term positive, the longterm might be even worse, as passion forms the larger part of valour and risk...as we have seen before.

Edited 6 February, 2009 by Frank's cousin

[alpine_saint]

Thats a very fair assessment Hypo, but there is one telling line for me that probably best describes why I have teh views I do... 'Regardless of who is right or wrong'

 

You are totally correct that whilst Lowe is here there will probably never be any unity amongst fans now, no matter what happens on the pitch... but for me that statement is the one that I have always thought to challenge... I believe in this case both sides have done wrong and done right - in varying proportions for sure, but I also dont think ANYONE should be subjected to abuse or hatred simply because the majority believe its right to do so - especially as teh reasons for that opinion has in the past been based on rumour speculation and gossip often portrayed as fact - and yes that goes for the other side to. Simply by pointing that out, I get teh luvvie tag 0- can live with that, but its the 'blah blah blah ignorance' of some that just get my goat...arhrr I know I should not rise to it, but we are all only ever human. Jeez, even Duncan and I were kicking each other last week, yet i do respect his opinion, even if I cant agre with him!

 

I dont think Crouch is evil or bad, nor MC, just folk who believe that maybe their passion is enough to give them moral victory - I can admire their passion with everybody else, but not the conclusion, as repeated calls for substance have never really yielded anything. Therefore IMHO, I cant see how chnage again right now is going to any good, and suspect that although ther might be a short term positive, the longterm might be even worse, as passion forms the larger part of valour and risk...as we have seen before.

 

 

Wow, the perfect example of the complete non-sensical ******** you write.

 

Crouch and MC can claim moral victory purely that they care about the fortunes and sucesses of the team - winning matters to them.

 

Lowe only gives a **** about the accounts and the bottom line.

[Frank's cousin]

Wow, the perfect example of the complete non-sensical ******** you write.

 

Crouch and MC can claim moral victory purely that they care about the fortunes and sucesses of the team - winning matters to them.

 

Lowe only gives a **** about the accounts and the bottom line.

 

Once again you are wearing the jesters hat it seems... as you have completely misunderstood the point... which is, as you missed it first time.... a little fairy tale....Yes the little piggies Crouch and MC do indeed claim moral victory , but there's is a bit like building a house on the sand out of straw a lovely to look at house certainly but still bult quickly on the shore - as they have yet to back this with plans that appear viable and historically have not delivered either on that front.... yes Lowe is the big bad wolf, but a wolf who knows that it matters not how good the house looks if its not build on strong foundations - now this wolf may be a selfish arrogant sod, and he may keep getting his pug mix wrong so that it seems the house will never be built, we could even argue he should get a different set of builders in if he really wanted to see a solid structure, but that does not mean you cant agree with the general building approach...

[alpine_saint]

Once again you are wearing the jesters hat it seems... as you have completely misunderstood the point... which is' date=' as you missed it first time.... a little fairy tale....Yes the little piggies Crouch and MC do indeed claim moral victory , but there's is a bit like building a house on the sand out of straw a lovely to look at house certainly but still bult quickly on the shore - as they have yet to back this with plans that appear viable and historically have not delivered either on that front.... yes Lowe is the big bad wolf, but a wolf who knows that it matters not how good the house looks if its not build on strong foundations - now this wolf may be a selfish arrogant sod, and he may keep getting his pug mix wrong so that it seems the house will never be built, we could even argue he should get a different set of builders in if he really wanted to see a solid structure, but that does not mean you cant agree with the general building approach...[/quote']

 

What rubbish. To continue your analogy, what good is a "general building approach" if its completely un-implementable by any builder or building company ?

 

Let's just go over the list of failures of this general building approach :

 

Wigley

Gray

Poorvillet

Probably Wotte

 

Maybe its just not "do-able". If its not feasible, its as completely useless as any other hair-brained idea.

 

Do you work in a university, perchance ? A lot of your sort of impractical thinking emanates from them.

[saintjay77]

What rubbish. To continue your analogy, what good is a "general building approach" if its completely un-implementable by any builder or building company ?

 

Let's just go over the list of failures of this general building approach :

 

Wigley

Gray

Poorvillet

Probably Wotte

 

Maybe its just not "do-able". If its not feasible, its as completely useless as any other hair-brained idea.

 

Do you work in a university, perchance ? A lot of your sort of impractical thinking emanates from them.

 

Sorry to but into your little love in you have going alps but your points are over a 10 year or so period and Crouch made rthe same co ck up within a few month period. you would have thought he might have learnt from Lowes mistakes wouldnt you?

 

And to be fair Pearson wasnt exactly a success either. I know he was trying to clean someone elses mess but he had more than enough time to do it and in the end was only saved by other teams results. So you could say Crouch had a go and co cked it up with both swings of the bat.

 

Rupes tried to build something and has failed. i am not arguing that at all. But in his attempt to build something we moved into SMS and had an FA cup final and hit our highest league finish without spending beyond our means all mixed in with many stupid ideas and pompus point scoring against anyone he thought was infereor no himself.

 

his few success' doesnt earn him my support but until someone buys the pr ick out then i dont see the others doing any better IMO

[alpine_saint]

Sorry to but into your little love in you have going alps but your points are over a 10 year or so period and Crouch made rthe same co ck up within a few month period. you would have thought he might have learnt from Lowes mistakes wouldnt you?

 

And to be fair Pearson wasnt exactly a success either. I know he was trying to clean someone elses mess but he had more than enough time to do it and in the end was only saved by other teams results. So you could say Crouch had a go and co cked it up with both swings of the bat.

 

Rupes tried to build something and has failed. i am not arguing that at all. But in his attempt to build something we moved into SMS and had an FA cup final and hit our highest league finish without spending beyond our means all mixed in with many stupid ideas and pompus point scoring against anyone he thought was infereor no himself.

 

his few success' doesnt earn him my support but until someone buys the pr ick out then i dont see the others doing any better IMO

 

Man, so much crap to dispell...

 

1. Go back and check how long Crouch actually held the reins of power. He didnt have time to **** anything up. Also, he made a managerial appointment that stopped us going down. Lowe wouldnt be up to doing that for as long as he has a hole in his arse. Also, many of the cost-savings implemented this season were Crouch's ideas.

 

2. Why should Crouch learn from Lowe's mistakes when Lowe cant learn from Lowe's mistakes

 

3. First time I have ever heard vicious cost-cutting and disastrous interference in team selection and tactics as "building something"

 

4. We got SMS in spite of Lowe, not because of him. The council saved that project from being Lowed-up

[Thedelldays]

 

2. Why should Crouch learn from Lowe's mistakes when Lowe cant learn from Lowe's mistakes

 

 

 

that does not make sense

[alpine_saint]

that does not make sense

 

It makes perfect sense.

[saintjay77]

Man, so much crap to dispell...

 

1. Go back and check how long Crouch actually held the reins of power. He didnt have time to **** anything up. Also, he made a managerial appointment that stopped us going down. Lowe wouldnt be up to doing that for as long as he has a hole in his arse. Also, many of the cost-savings implemented this season were Crouch's ideas.

 

So Crouch didnt have long enough to make a mistake but he had long enough to save us from relegation? Sounds like he was in a win win situation with you alps. And how many years did we avoid relegation with Lowe in charge? I make it 9 out of 10 with 1 or 2 of those years far excedding our expectations. Not bad for a chairman that is not up for making a decission of good as long as he has a hole in his arse was it?

 

2. Why should Crouch learn from Lowe's mistakes when Lowe cant learn from Lowe's mistakes

 

so your argument for Crouch making mistakes (which in your previous point says he cant because he didnt have enough time) is he is alloud because Lowe made them too? So do you suggest that Crouch can have 10 years in charge making the same mistakes Lowe has and its all ok because Lowe did it? Seriously? thats your argument?

 

3. First time I have ever heard vicious cost-cutting and disastrous interference in team selection and tactics as "building something"

 

the building something reference was in this thread already so if its the 1st time you have heard it as such then I dont know why you replied so many times to FC as he was the one talking about building straw houses while refering to what Lowe and Crouch have tried to do. Also 10 years in charge and not buiding for the future would mean that we would still be at the dell (maybe not such a bad thing right now) trying to avoid relegation with no likes of bale and Walcot coming through a pretty good acadamy right?

 

4. We got SMS in spite of Lowe, not because of him. The council saved that project from being Lowed-up

 

but if Crouch was in charge when SMS was built it would have been a master plan that could only have been achived with his skill and passion for the club? Give over alps, SMS was built while Lowe was in charge. How much of a hand he had in getting it done is irrelivent. He didnt do it on his own and neither would crouch have done. But as the person in charge they take most of the plaudits and most of the flack when it all goes ti ts up.

 

Im with you on wanting Lowe out and for our fortunes to change but cant help but laugh at some of your arguments mate.

Edited 6 February, 2009 by saintjay77

[Thedelldays]

why..might as well say....does not matter if wotte makes the same mistakes as jan never learned from them...if that is the case, then lets all get behind wotte...

 

that will never happen..

 

 

seriously mate, how is the fact one man did not and does not learn from his mistakes excuse a completely different man from making mistakes..seeing he is supposed to be the better option..?

[alpine_saint]

Im with you on wanting Lowe out and for our fortunes to change but cant help but laugh at some of your arguments mate.

 

Actually, all you are doing is trying to spot contradictions in my comments, rather than pull my arguments apart with sound ones of your own...

[hypochondriac]

Sorry to but into your little love in you have going alps but your points are over a 10 year or so period and Crouch made rthe same co ck up within a few month period. you would have thought he might have learnt from Lowes mistakes wouldnt you?

 

Certainly and I would imagine Crouch would admit that he made an error him. The huge difference is that Crouch quickly realised his error and rectified it before it was too late.

 

And to be fair Pearson wasnt exactly a success either.

 

Debateable but I would argue that the unity and feelgood factor he brought was just as important as his managerial ability.

 

I know he was trying to clean someone elses mess but he had more than enough time to do it and in the end was only saved by other teams results. So you could say Crouch had a go and co cked it up with both swings of the bat.

 

You could say that but you would be wrong. In no way could Pearson be regarded as a failure and I feel sure we would be doing a lot better with him and Crouch here. Even if we were doing the same we would have a lot more support and good feeling behind us than we have now, something which does make a difference however small

 

Rupes tried to build something and has failed. i am not arguing that at all. But in his attempt to build something we moved into SMS and had an FA cup final and hit our highest league finish without spending beyond our means all mixed in with many stupid ideas and pompus point scoring against anyone he thought was infereor no himself.

 

Not sure you can compare his two tenures. What I object to most is that he should have realised that he had failed after relegation and left well alone. He has decided that he knows best and started this new campaign which will also end in failure. Lowe should be applauded for the good times but also criticised for the bad. It is currently very bad and he has no place at the club IMO.

 

his few success' doesnt earn him my support but until someone buys the pr ick out then i dont see the others doing any better IMO

 

If he had left things alone I feel we would be doing better now. I realise that that is an opinion but it's an opinion I imagine which is shared by the majority.

[Thedelldays]

another one I dont get...how on earth can you say that lowe was not responsible in any small way for sms...it happened on his watch...like it or not.

 

might as well go the whole hog and say he was not responsible got relegation..it also happened on his watch...

 

?

[alpine_saint]

If he had left things alone I feel we would be doing better now. I realise that that is an opinion but it's an opinion I imagine which is shared by the majority.

 

Yes. I dont agree with all of the comments you made, but the conclusion is correct.

[saintjay77]

If he had left things alone I feel we would be doing better now. I realise that that is an opinion but it's an opinion I imagine which is shared by the majority.

 

I dont actually count Pearson as a failure but I wonder had other results gone against us on the last day of the season I wonder how much support he would have now?

 

I think he should have been given the chance and think we would be in a much better position now FWIW. But most of the arguments on here are based on IFs and Maybes or complete boll0x made up by a few posters who like to spout out constant abuse as it suits what they think. And thats from both sides IMO.

 

I would say 99% of the fan base want Rupes out of the door and never to return. The problem I have with the others to take his place is that they all seem more concerned on getting one over Rupes and co than they o eon getting rid of him completly.

 

Do they not understand that if they buy him out he has no say at all? Stand and shout and stamp there feet as much as they want. I cant be arsed to support any of them untill they actually do something that will make a change forever.

[saintjay77]

Actually, all you are doing is trying to spot contradictions in my comments, rather than pull my arguments apart with sound ones of your own...

 

I pointed out what? 1 contradiction? the rest of my points show up that you are talking rubbish TBH.

 

I like some of Rupes ideas but I dont think he is the man that can carry them out. Most of his other ideas are complete arse and he shouldnt have the chance to carry them out.

 

I dont see anything in the rest of them that can do any better than what we have as long as the others are still involved.

 

If Rupes bought out the others and was playing with entirely his own money I think he would get better results because it would matter so much more to him. Likewise with Crouch. Any decissions he makes effects not only his bank ballence so he can afford to play with other peoples money. If he owned it outright do you really think he would have racked up 6 mil debt? he couldnt offer to pay just 2 mil then could he?

 

If he buys either of the other 2 out he will get so much more of my support and I will happily clear the desk of Rupes or who ever but I cant see him doing it whilbue he can still argue and fight with the other muppets in charge.

[hypochondriac]

I dont actually count Pearson as a failure but I wonder had other results gone against us on the last day of the season I wonder how much support he would have now?

 

But they didn't so it's irrelevant. If he had relegated us I would have had some sympathy for him to be honest and realised that a lot of the stuff that went on happened before he got here. As I said though it's largely irrelevant.

 

I think he should have been given the chance and think we would be in a much better position now FWIW.

 

Agreed then. Fab.

 

But most of the arguments on here are based on IFs and Maybes or complete boll0x made up by a few posters who like to spout out constant abuse as it suits what they think. And thats from both sides IMO.

 

Have you not just said the same thing about Pearson? Earlier you said that it could be argued that Crouch failed both times but if you admit that Pearson was not a failure, how can you say That Crouch failed?

 

I would say 99% of the fan base want Rupes out of the door and never to return. The problem I have with the others to take his place is that they all seem more concerned on getting one over Rupes and co than they o eon getting rid of him completly.

 

You're entitled to that opinion but having spoken to Leon on the phone and from reports of him from others I respect I would say that isn't the case. Crouch actually went to the club a couple of weeks ago hoping to work together with the other two but he was rejected. The Runnymede minutes also show that Crouch was prepared to work with the other 2. It was Wilde and Lowe who refused to speak to each other!

 

Do they not understand that if they buy him out he has no say at all? Stand and shout and stamp there feet as much as they want. I cant be arsed to support any of them untill they actually do something that will make a change forever.

 

If Lowe and Wilde refuse to sell to Crouch then what can he do?

[alpine_saint]

I would say 99% of the fan base want Rupes out of the door and never to return. The problem I have with the others to take his place is that they all seem more concerned on getting one over Rupes and co than they o eon getting rid of him completly.

 

Do they not understand that if they buy him out he has no say at all? Stand and shout and stamp there feet as much as they want. I cant be arsed to support any of them untill they actually do something that will make a change forever.

 

Well, this is complete ********, for a start.

 

Crouch made Lowe an offer, a good one, for his shares. He must have sensed what I have been banging on about since back when Lowe stepped down - that for as long as he ówns shares, he is a menace that can damage this club.

 

You accuse others of making wild speculation and talking bolllocks, then accuse all parties that would want Lowe removed of only wanting to get one over on him.

 

I salute your bare-faced hypocrisy, sir..

[saintjay77]

If Lowe and Wilde refuse to sell to Crouch then what can he do?

 

We didnt get relegated and for that Pearson has been given credit when we didnt actually get enough points to make ourselves safe. Surly thats like giving Lowe credit for keeping all our players here when no-one actually bid any suitable offers?

 

if we had got relegated I personally would have felt sorry for pearson as I agree he jumped onto an already sinking ship. but my feelings on Pearson are based on what I think the guy could do not one the facts of what was done. So my points before were not from my own opinion but more playing devils advocet and looking at the facts.

 

Do I think he is a good manager? yes I do.

 

Do I think he did well with us? Not that well really.

 

Do I think he would have done better this year? Yes I do and a whole lot better than what we have have. but thats the bit that is based on a big IF and not a Fact.

 

So I dont think I am being hypocritical on anything. Just trying to look at things objectivly and not let what I think of 1 person or another get in the way of whats going on.

 

As for what I think of them all I can only go on what I have seen in the press and formed my own opinion. I dont mean to offend any of them not that I think they will give a monkeys what I think of them but its the impression I get. Allot of the info we form our opinions on them comes from here and allot of that is fed directly from them as it supports what they want us to think.

 

If they are all going to be here then I think they should all work together and if thats what Crouch wants then great. Its the only way I think all of them can achieve anything but there have been many times the option has been presented by one or the other and there is always 1 of them that bins the idea. its not long before who ever tried to make a truce comes out in the press or via here telling everyone how they are the ones trying to do whats right and make the others look like the big bad wolf again.

 

This is where i think they all have a go at point scoring and it looks like they all want to get one over each other.

 

If Crouch or any of the others want to give me a call then I am all ears. there position doesnt effect me and I have nothing to gain from speaking to any of them. But I will quite happily speak to any of them and hear what they think that can do if all 3 were there or why they cant make a move to buy the others out.

 

Its not going to happen the same as the club wont move forward while they all have something to argue about.

 

All just my opinion of course.

[saintjay77]

Well, this is complete ********, for a start.

 

Crouch made Lowe an offer, a good one, for his shares. He must have sensed what I have been banging on about since back when Lowe stepped down - that for as long as he ówns shares, he is a menace that can damage this club.

 

You accuse others of making wild speculation and talking bolllocks, then accuse all parties that would want Lowe removed of only wanting to get one over on him.

 

I salute your bare-faced hypocrisy, sir..

 

So Lowe obviously just looking out for himself didnt tell Crouch that he could buy his shares as long as he bought the shares of those that supported him for the same price?

 

If the report that turned up on here or where ever that crouch made the offer is to be believed then it makes sence to also believe that rupes replied as such?

 

So crouch had a chance to clear the club of Rupes AND rupes' suporters but didnt go through with it?

 

We dont know what the offer was in all honesty or what any conditions may have been. But do you believe that if Crouch went public saying he has 10 mil spare and he wants to buy out the other main shareholders he would get an overwhelming amount of support from 99% of the fans? Me included? Would this support not flush through southampton and make Rupes and Wilde and co's position completly unetainable?

 

This is what I mean by making something happen. As it stands there is no boneifide alternative but if Crouch or who ever stood up waving a bank sheet saying everything is in place to buy the others out then there would be a definitive alternative and I would love to come and protest, demonstrate and sing swing lowe. I would even try to arrange a way to get you there too alps.

 

but it aint gona happen is it? or can you see a way forward where Lowe is not around?

[Weston Saint]

Have I missed something......where did Crouch offer to buy Lowe and Wildes shares!!!!!

 

By the way, if he did he would own 32.03% and have to bid for the whole club.

[alpine_saint]

Have I missed something......where did Crouch offer to buy Lowe and Wildes shares!!!!!

 

By the way, if he did he would own 32.03% and have to bid for the whole club.

 

R, you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick completely.

 

Who said anything about Wilde ? I was referring to Crouch's offer soon after Lowe stepped down.

[Weston Saint]

R, you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick completely.

 

Who said anything about Wilde ? I was referring to Crouch's offer soon after Lowe stepped down.

Was it Crouch? Who said. Seymour Pierce allegedly told Lowe someone would buy his shares at 65p but it turned out not to be for his cabel, only his own! I have not heard Crouch say it was him. You are making assumptions and I am pretty sure you are wrong.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by alpine_saint

R, you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick completely.

 

Who said anything about Wilde ? I was referring to Crouch's offer soon after Lowe stepped down.

Was it Crouch? Who said. Seymour Pierce allegedly told Lowe someone would buy his shares at 65p but it turned out not to be for his cabel, only his own! I have not heard Crouch say it was him. You are making assumptions and I am pretty sure you are wrong.

 

I believe you are both correct, just the timing that requires putting in order.

[saintjay77]

I believe you are both correct, just the timing that requires putting in order.

 

Kind of squashes me being a hypocrite then. My points are not trying to get one over on alps or anyone else. just pointing out that its easy to hear snippets on here and get carried away with the whole lowe is at fault for everything and anything that good happens is in spite of lowe or accidental.

 

ive said before there is plenty to hate him for and campaign against but having hissy fits over things that have not happened just makes the anti lowe lot look a bit silly. same goes for the odd jobs like scooby/nineteen canteen. the actual view is awful but fairly ballanced and we all want it to be so much better.