A question

[SaintRobbie]

See, there you go again with your Soothsaying and Seer powers!!

 

It's all conjecture where we would be with Crouch now, and people can't say we would be there FOR SURE.

 

We can only be SURE about the position we are in NOW and saying that it WOULD HAVE been better under LC is wrong.

 

Nothing wrong with saying it MIGHT BE better though!

 

Read again - thats exactly what I am saying. I am talking about the NOW, but also basing it on historical evidence.

 

But the Situation NOW (for evidence please refer to league table and form tables, they rarely lie) is : Lowe = relegation. Crouch = possibly not relegation.

[slickmick]

Again Robbie your faith is misguided.ONLY with LC is is a bit melodramatic as his fighting spirit took us to within 20 minutes of relegation under his chairmanship.He may be the best way of a really bad bunch at present but he definately not the only way.

 

 

Crouch messed up bringing in Dodd and Gorman, but he realised that fairly quickly and put it right with Pearson. Lowe on the other hand bought in a 3rd tier manager that new nothing about championship football.

[SaintRobbie]

Anyway... off to work. Good chatting to you Nick/Mick/Bob. This dialectic debate has been fun!

[Big Bad Bob]

Crouch messed up bringing in Dodd and Gorman, but he realised that fairly quickly and put it right with Pearson. Lowe on the other hand bought in a 3rd tier manager that new nothing about championship football.

 

And previous to us Pearson was......??

[slickmick]

And previous to us Pearson was......??

 

 

He was a risky appointment, but at least he knew about the English game, and able to identify players.

[Big Bad Bob]

He was a risky appointment, but at least he knew about the English game, and able to identify players.

 

Do you know what, I sincerely believe that a vast majority of the loans we made were 'suggested' by Chris McMenemy. I don't think that Pearson had THAT much knowledge of the game!

 

NickH has pointed out in another thread that it was Webster that suggested Richard Wright at the time!

 

Not that I am slating the +ve effect he had mind.

[slickmick]

Do you know what, I sincerely believe that a vast majority of the loans we made were 'suggested' by Chris McMenemy. I don't think that Pearson had THAT much knowledge of the game!

 

NickH has pointed out in another thread that it was Webster that suggested Richard Wright at the time!

 

Not that I am slating the +ve effect he had mind.

 

:confused:

Leicester had better watch out then. Hope Mandarin face knows what he's doing.

[Frank's cousin]

I think you do have a lot of influence here Duncan and you play to the crowd. But fair play to you. If you have an audience why not milk it? And I do think you play your audience very well. I think you use your experience as a shop steward to good effect.

I also think you are very clever and very selective in what you post, but then that is just my opinion.

I am sure there are postive things about the club and the regime that end up on the cutting room floor but again, just my opinion.

I suppose my ongoing problem with your posts is that, as a historian, I expect you to dig deep to find facts, not just repeat tittle tattle in support of a well worn agenda.

By the way, I thought the timing of your nostalgia post was brilliant!

The timing of your return to the forum was also very clever, nothing for months and then when you sense that the forum is ready for some petrol you are on hand to throw some on the fire, I guess Richard Chorley will reappear soon too.

I know you think I am just an armchair bound wuss, fair enough. But I too love SFC and I think that at times like these we need to put personal agendas to one side and get behind the club. The whole club and not just the nice bits that have mostly now been consigned to history and the cuddly bits we liked and no longer exist.

You said some time back you would rather we get relegated than have Lowe at the helm. My position has never changed, I don't care who is at the helm so long as we don't get relegated. You have sided with Crouch who was one game away from relegation last season. If we are safe before the end of the season would that not be at least an improvement? Not in your book I suspect and that is where we shall always differ.

 

I dont always agree with what you say SOG, but this is extremely well put and I would say I am in total agreement.

[Frank's cousin]

Bern I give you my word the next good thing I hear about Lowe, I will post.

 

I think thats the point though Duncan.... what you hear is going to be influenced by who you are close to, and thus will not be without bias?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I think thats the point though Duncan.... what you hear is going to be influenced by who you are close to' date=' and thus will not be without bias?[/quote']

 

Can't argue with that.

As you know FC I have had dialogue with all 3 camps over the last year and all 3 camps are, in varying degrees, culpable for our current woes. The camp I got closest too was Crouch's and I suppose as he is on the outside looking in he has most to gain by "spinning". I am aware of that and I don't intend to be played by him just as we all saw through Wilde when we met him. I still regard him as the lesser of the 3 evils which is not a glowing reference I have to admit but, like I have already said, drowning men do not shun passing lifeboats because they don't look seaworthy.

To be fair to Rupert he has never tried to "spin" me - he probably sees me as a lost cause - but these days I don't think Lowe worries too much about spin, he will do what he wants, when he wants.

 

I can understand Wilde and Lowe's concern last March at the direction this club was going - indeed we shared that concern. I was vocal in condemning the dreadful spin coming from Crouch which incensed me. I spoke at length to Cowan who implied that they would be mounting a comeback but having then got Pearson in and the fact we survived I would like to have seen them hold off from calling an EGM to give the Crouch/Pearson another season or at least 4 or 5 months.

 

Lowe's return - whether it was needed or not - was always going to cause rifts and so it has prooved. He has been hampered by the dreadful financial crisis which was mainly caused by the execs, but the way he is, the way he conducts himself shows he is not the man for this particular crisis. There are understandable calls for a rally behind the club which is fair enough but for a real united rally the figuregead or the man in charge has to be one who is respected even a little and there are not many fans left who will afford that respect to Rupert Lowe.

 

I am not sure many more respect Leon Crouch but I still think he would probably do a better job than the other two or at the very least made a bigger effort to prevent administration. But don't get me wrong I don't have a signed photo of the man hanging in my hallway - and before you ask I don't have a photo of a train there either!

[OldNick]

Can't argue with that.

As you know FC I have had dialogue with all 3 camps over the last year and all 3 camps are, in varying degrees, culpable for our current woes. The camp I got closest too was Crouch's and I suppose as he is on the outside looking in he has most to gain by "spinning". I am aware of that and I don't intend to be played by him just as we all saw through Wilde when we met him. I still regard him as the lesser of the 3 evils which is not a glowing reference I have to admit but, like I have already said, drowning men do not shun passing lifeboats because they don't look seaworthy.

To be fair to Rupert he has never tried to "spin" me - he probably sees me as a lost cause - but these days I don't think Lowe worries too much about spin, he will do what he wants, when he wants.

 

I can understand Wilde and Lowe's concern last March at the direction this club was going - indeed we shared that concern. I was vocal in condemning the dreadful spin coming from Crouch which incensed me. I spoke at length to Cowan who implied that they would be mounting a comeback but having then got Pearson in and the fact we survived I would like to have seen them hold off from calling an EGM to give the Crouch/Pearson another season or at least 4 or 5 months.

 

Lowe's return - whether it was needed or not - was always going to cause rifts and so it has prooved. He has been hampered by the dreadful financial crisis which was mainly caused by the execs, but the way he is, the way he conducts himself shows he is not the man for this particular crisis. There are understandable calls for a rally behind the club which is fair enough but for a real united rally the figuregead or the man in charge has to be one who is respected even a little and there are not many fans left who will afford that respect to Rupert Lowe.

 

I am not sure many more respect Leon Crouch but I still think he would probably do a better job than the other two or at the very least made a bigger effort to prevent administration. But don't get me wrong I don't have a signed photo of the man hanging in my hallway - and before you ask I don't have a photo of a train there either!

 

Duncan that is a really good post from my perspective because it is balanced and fair.Too often in the past they have been so biased that they have been easy to dispell.I hope your reasoning and a real bit of balance is used tomorrow and not the hotheads who could ruin a decent well meaning protest.

[Frank's cousin]

Can't argue with that.

As you know FC I have had dialogue with all 3 camps over the last year and all 3 camps are, in varying degrees, culpable for our current woes. The camp I got closest too was Crouch's and I suppose as he is on the outside looking in he has most to gain by "spinning". I am aware of that and I don't intend to be played by him just as we all saw through Wilde when we met him. I still regard him as the lesser of the 3 evils which is not a glowing reference I have to admit but, like I have already said, drowning men do not shun passing lifeboats because they don't look seaworthy.

To be fair to Rupert he has never tried to "spin" me - he probably sees me as a lost cause - but these days I don't think Lowe worries too much about spin, he will do what he wants, when he wants.

 

I can understand Wilde and Lowe's concern last March at the direction this club was going - indeed we shared that concern. I was vocal in condemning the dreadful spin coming from Crouch which incensed me. I spoke at length to Cowan who implied that they would be mounting a comeback but having then got Pearson in and the fact we survived I would like to have seen them hold off from calling an EGM to give the Crouch/Pearson another season or at least 4 or 5 months.

 

Lowe's return - whether it was needed or not - was always going to cause rifts and so it has prooved. He has been hampered by the dreadful financial crisis which was mainly caused by the execs, but the way he is, the way he conducts himself shows he is not the man for this particular crisis. There are understandable calls for a rally behind the club which is fair enough but for a real united rally the figuregead or the man in charge has to be one who is respected even a little and there are not many fans left who will afford that respect to Rupert Lowe.

 

I am not sure many more respect Leon Crouch but I still think he would probably do a better job than the other two or at the very least made a bigger effort to prevent administration. But don't get me wrong I don't have a signed photo of the man hanging in my hallway - and before you ask I don't have a photo of a train there either!

 

I think thats a fair account Duncan and appreciate that you are in a difficult situation - thanks for clarifying it in this way as it makes sense. I guess from my perspective though, its never been about whether Crouch would be better than what we have or whether whether there would be greater unity - Naturally there will always be GREATER unity but not total unity if the the boardroom is populated by the most popular amongst fans - and Its clear that Crouch has the lions share of the vote at the moment... I dont know him personnally so can only judge on what we have seen publically, and my caution has stemed from the fact that his popular position stems from having made popular decisions that sit comfortably with fans (and they are no doubt good things in many respects) but appears to lack a real viable strategy for long term stability or progress - Wilde was the same when he arrived. With Lowe I guess he simply does what he sees as the best option whatever anyone else thinks - whether it works or not, but you do at least know what he is doing, even if it fails! e.g, no cash, = youth, overcome inexperience with style...bring in dutch coach and play total football on the ground - exciting and cheap! - seat of your pants rollarcoaster naiviety for sure, but not without the smallest grain of merit.... thing is had CRouch still been involved, because somehow they had agreed to work together, and been the man to taklk to the fans about these decisions, what would the outcome have been?

 

He might have said - 'look, this is going to be one hell of a year, we're skint and need to save evry penny so its all kids to the pump and lets see if we can overcome the logical thinking that says it will never work, by a spirited total football style - its a rollercoaster, its madness, but hey, we are Saints all in this together, what do you say?' would we have been more supportive, or would we have naysayed as he would ahve been considered a splitter by teaming up with Lowe?

 

This is what makes this whole thing so difficult, never knowing if decisions are considered daft because of analysis, or because of whose idea they were, and thats whats worn me down, because many of Lowes approaches have had merit - even those that did not work. He has just been so extremely crap at generating public support, due to his arrogance, and crassness - ''we are sop much more forgiving of the beautiful people'' (cant remember wher the quote comes from)

 

So we have Lowe who opens his mouth and out pours crass arrogance, Crouch who opens his mouth too quickly whatever the consequences and Wilde who seems to have lost his tongue at the moment, what are we to do?

 

I know we crossed swords last week, it was bound to happen sooner or later ;-) especially as I've given up the fags! Seriously, right now I dont support anybody ...except Saints, because the other 3 are old and ugly enough to fight their own battles, but the kids and Wotte are young and naive enough and need this more if we are to avoid relegation.... thats just my take on it.

Edited 30 January, 2009 by Frank's cousin

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I think thats a fair account Duncan and appreciate that you are in a difficult situation - thanks for clarifying it in this way as it makes sense. I guess from my perspective though, its never been about whether Crouch would be better than what we have or whether whether there would be greater unity - Naturally there will always be GREATER unity but not total unity if the the boardroom is populated by the most popular amongst fans - and Its clear that Crouch has the lions share of the vote at the moment... I dont know him personnally so can only judge on what we have seen publically, and my caution has stemed from the fact that his popular position stems from having made popular decisions that sit comfortably with fans (and they are no doubt good things in many respects) but appears to lack a real viable strategy for long term stability or progress - Wilde was the same when he arrived. With Lowe I guess he simply does what he sees as the best option whatever anyone else thinks - whether it works or not, but you do at least know what he is doing, even if it fails! e.g, no cash, = youth, overcome inexperience with style...bring in dutch coach and play total football on the ground - exciting and cheap! - seat of your pants rollarcoaster naiviety for sure, but not without the smallest grain of merit.... thing is had CRouch still been involved, because somehow they had agreed to work together, and been the man to taklk to the fans about these decisions, what would the outcome have been?

 

He might have said - 'look, this is going to be one hell of a year, we're skint and need to save evry penny so its all kids to the pump and lets see if we can overcome the logical thinking that says it will never work, by a spirited total football style - its a rollercoaster, its madness, but hey, we are Saints all in this together, what do you say?' would we have been more supportive, or would we have naysayed as he would ahve been considered a splitter by teaming up with Lowe?

 

This is what makes this whole thing so difficult, never knowing if decisions are considered daft because of analysis, or because of whose idea they were, and thats whats worn me down, because many of Lowes approaches have had merit - even those that did not work. He has just been so extremely crap at generating public support, due to his arrogance, and crassness - ''we are sop much more forgiving of the beautiful people'' (cant remember wher the quote comes from)

 

So we have Lowe who opens his mouth and out pours crass arrogance, Crouch who opens his mouth too quickly whatever the consequences and Wilde who seems to have lost his tongue at the moment, what are we to do?

 

I know we crossed swords last week, it was bound to happen sooner or later ;-) especially as I've given up the fags! Seriously, right now I dont support anybody ...except Saints, because the other 3 are old and ugly enough to fight their own battles, but the kids and Wotte are young and naive enough and need this more if we are to avoid relegation.... thats just my take on it.

 

This too I can broadly accept Frank.

 

Like you say had Rupert approached things differently rather than try and hoodwink us with the Dutch total football dream even I would have shut up or at least given it a chance. We all would have, I suspect because we all accept the financial situation. Trouble is I am so suspicious of him I just can't believe him and when the rumours started about his involvement in playing matters such as team selection I immediately grow concerned.

 

And then you see his behaviour at the AGM (ie that letter reading) and you realise you just can't get behind him - or I can't anyway. He is his own worse enemy which is a shame.

Edited 30 January, 2009 by Fitzhugh Fella

[alpine_saint]

And then you see his behaviour at the AGM (ie that letter reading) and you realise you just can't get behind him - or I can't anyway. He is his own worse enemy which is a shame.

 

Yep. Any brief moments of foaming at the mouth where I even try to contemplate and empathise about the task facing him are immediately broken by remembering how he behaves, that letter just being the latest in a long line.

[Frank's cousin]

This too I can broadly accept Frank.

 

Like you say had Rupert approached things differently rather than try and hoodwink us with the Dutch total football dream even I would have shut up or at least given it a chance. We all would have, I suspect because we all accept the financial situation. Trouble is I am so suspicious of him I just can't believe him and when the rumours started about his involvement in playing matters such as team selection I immediately grow concerned.

 

And then you see his behaviour at the AGM (ie that letter reading) and you realise you just can't get behind him - or I can't anyway. He is his own worse enemy which is a shame.

 

I think the behaviour thing is the reaction of the cornered animal - do you cower or come out fighting? Both pathetic in this case because the best way to show you are in control and CARE is to welcome open debate and discussion - win the argument with logic, not arrogance; be willing to learn from experience and those around you providiong sound advice.

 

 

The whole Dutch debacle was anotyher classic case of Lowe misreading the fans - both with the Pearson thing and with the way it was 'bigged' up as the solution to get us out of the mess - sometimes the direct and honest spin free approach is the only way - but he may have 'cried wolf' too many times.

 

With Crouch we get the complete opposite, and in my opinion equally prblematic. To 'heart on sleave' man of the people. Appointmnets based on club association rather than value that can be added, delays perhaps in doing the necessary because of how this would go down with fans - in effect running the club and talking in the media like a fan rather than a pro chairman - and whilst that might be superficially appealing it does not mean he has all the answers.

 

The way forward? Three points at the weekend would be a big start!

Edited 30 January, 2009 by Frank's cousin

[sadoldgit]

I dont always agree with what you say SOG' date=' but this is extremely well put and I would say I am in total agreement.[/quote']

 

Hi FC, well it would be a very boring forum if everyone agreed with each other all the time. DEbate is healthy and well informed debate healthier still. What depresses me is ill-informed debate!

 

As for the current situation,how sad is it when we talk of supporting the lesser of three evils?

 

I have seen people elsewhere call for a totally clean sweep of all the protaganists and a fresh start with fresh faces. Sounds ideal but how do we know we will not end up with more idiots running the show?

 

For me right now I have no time for Wilde and think that Crouch is too much of a hothead for the situation we find ourselves in so that just leaves Lowe and Cowen. If there is one good thing about this pair it is saving pennies so they are probably best suited of the bunch to stave of administration. Whether replacing JP with Wotte was the right thing only time will tell, but JP had to go and if Wotte was the orginal choice before Burley now is the time for him to show us why he was so highly thought of.

 

Irrespective of what happens in the boardroom I am looking forward to the second half of the season on the pitch.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Robbie Iam confused what is best for Saints at present.The home defeats against Forest and Donny really knocked our confidence.That has opened the wounds and then there was an ourtpouring of frustration.Rightly so.

I still believe if we had won 2 more home games and say 5 points clear of the relegation position this all would not be so restless.

The fans were patient and would still be so as in principle they do understand the clubs constraints.

 

 

I think you got this pretty correct, although I am not so sure the two homes games would have been enough to heal the wounds completely. There would still be a large degree of mistrust in Lowe and his Dutch experiment. However, it would have been a potential springboard to a potentially brighter future next season. I think Lowe's plan stretches over the next 2-3 seasons in terms of re-building, the trouble is that it has failed at the first hurdle and spectactularly at that. Now Lowe has pushed himself even further into a corner with ANOTHER change of Manager - his reputation truly does precede him!

[sadoldgit]

I think you got this pretty correct, although I am not so sure the two homes games would have been enough to heal the wounds completely. There would still be a large degree of mistrust in Lowe and his Dutch experiment. However, it would have been a potential springboard to a potentially brighter future next season. I think Lowe's plan stretches over the next 2-3 seasons in terms of re-building, the trouble is that it has failed at the first hurdle and spectactularly at that. Now Lowe has pushed himself even further into a corner with ANOTHER change of Manager - his reputation truly does precede him!

 

I think that this club is desparate for a decent level of continuity in managers but sadly there was simply no other choice. Whether JP would have worked over the 3 year plan we shall never know, but as things stood, his time was up. We can only hope that Wotte turns out to be a better bet.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I think that this club is desparate for a decent level of continuity in managers but sadly there was simply no other choice. Whether JP would have worked over the 3 year plan we shall never know, but as things stood, his time was up. We can only hope that Wotte turns out to be a better bet.

 

 

True, but who would put money on it? It really has to be the worst odds ever for a new manager. Today though is really about the Manager - the players have not changed...he has had time to think about his selection following the Norwich game...he has the chance, but is he good enough? Big questions will be answered today.

[sadoldgit]

True, but who would put money on it? It really has to be the worst odds ever for a new manager. Today though is really about the Manager - the players have not changed...he has had time to think about his selection following the Norwich game...he has the chance, but is he good enough? Big questions will be answered today.

 

I really don't know mate. The only glimmer of hope that I can see is that apparently Wotte is not a "nice guy" so maybe he will ruffle a few feathers and get the bit more out of this bunch that we need to get some wins on the board.