Team for the championship - likely exits, and what will be required for promotion and staying up

[Gloucester Saint]

13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Didn't want to play for us I think January is pretty harsh. Maybe the club would have preferred he stay where he is for his development? Maybe he didn't feel ready to play in a rubbish team in the prem yet? 

Arguably beneficial to stay with the incoming manager/approach as well as avoiding the shitshow for 6 months.

[Saint86]

51 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Yeah I was being silly because of the the same poster previously getting upset over Downes/Martin and Charles making clear he preferred to be at Wednesday in January.

Eh? I wanted Charles recalled previously because at the time relegation wasn't assured, Lesley had also been rubbish up to that point, and I thought Charles could do a job for us. I was disappointed he was briefly in line to be sold in january as well (given we could certainly do a job for us in the champ). Equally I don't have an issue with him staying there, playing regularly, and avoiding this car crash. Curious as to which part of that you disagree with. 

If I recall, I think you were a huge ralph out advocate at one point - but either way, how do you feel about his #2 potentially coming back in? 

The situation with downes and Martin is entirely different as well... He absolutely was one of Martin's golden boys, wanted out once Martin went, and had a sulk and refused to play. Would be a weird take to not be pissed off with his attitude 🤔

Edited March 5 by Saint86

[Fabrice29]

2 hours ago, Saint86 said:

Eh? I wanted Charles recalled previously because at the time relegation wasn't assured, Lesley had also been rubbish up to that point, and I thought Charles could do a job for us. I was disappointed he was briefly in line to be sold in january as well (given we could certainly do a job for us in the champ). Equally I don't have an issue with him staying there, playing regularly, and avoiding this car crash. Curious as to which part of that you disagree with. 

If I recall, I think you were a huge ralph out advocate at one point - but either way, how do you feel about his #2 potentially coming back in? 

The situation with downes and Martin is entirely different as well... He absolutely was one of Martin's golden boys, wanted out once Martin went, and had a sulk and refused to play. Would be a weird take to not be pissed off with his attitude 🤔

I have no issues with what has happened with Charles. I was merely pointing out you were annoyed at Downes wanting to play for his mate which is a just a theory and then I was being silly pointing out Charles might want to play for his mate and just wondering if you would remain consistent. 

As for Ralph, I think I was probably up for him leaving by the end. I’m not a big fan of the style of football that he and Rohl advocate but that’s subjective and I can see the plusses and very happy to get behind it, for reasons I’ve explained in the Juric thread. 

[Forester]

I assume Rambo, KWP, THB, Fernandes and Dibbling all get moves to Premier League clubs.  It may be that one or two don’t, which is great, but that is my assumption.

What I think many of our fans don’t recognise is that every one of the following would all be picked up by top six championship sides, every one, a total of 19 players:

McCarthy, Bree, Sugawara, Stephens, Edwards, Wood, Bednarek, ABK, Manning, Downes, Smallbone, Aribo, Charles, Kamaldeen, Edozie, Tall Paul, BBD, Armstrong and Archer

In addition there are others who could still be valuable squad players for the season, fitness permitting, such as Baz, Taylor, Larios, Fraser and Stewart.  Clearly you cannot rely on these five as core players.

I think our main aim should be to retain as many as we can, and minimise the number of purchases we need but spend it on real quality.  A goal scoring winger, another holding midfielder and another number ten would be on my list.  Then if we go back up the majority need to go, for reasons vividly played out this season.

[Suhari]

46 minutes ago, Forester said:

I assume Rambo, KWP, THB, Fernandes and Dibbling all get moves to Premier League clubs.  It may be that one or two don’t, which is great, but that is my assumption.

What I think many of our fans don’t recognise is that every one of the following would all be picked up by top six championship sides, every one, a total of 19 players:

McCarthy, Bree, Sugawara, Stephens, Edwards, Wood, Bednarek, ABK, Manning, Downes, Smallbone, Aribo, Charles, Kamaldeen, Edozie, Tall Paul, BBD, Armstrong and Archer

In addition there are others who could still be valuable squad players for the season, fitness permitting, such as Baz, Taylor, Larios, Fraser and Stewart.  Clearly you cannot rely on these five as core players.

I think our main aim should be to retain as many as we can, and minimise the number of purchases we need but spend it on real quality.  A goal scoring winger, another holding midfielder and another number ten would be on my list.  Then if we go back up the majority need to go, for reasons vividly played out this season.

We'll have a pretty strong team for the Championship, from an ability point of view. My question is how many have the mindset we need? The clubs been a shitfest for a while and th is must have impacted morale, motivation etc. We'll surely see some turnover just to get some new faces/fresh minds onto the bus.

[Football Special]

5 hours ago, Saint86 said:

With the news that Rohl seems to be incoming, i wonder what it will mean for the team in the championship next year.

I haven't really been following them in detail this season - i.e. typical formation and key players? Does anyone have much insight on them? I know Ralph played the 4-2-2-2 high press, are Wednesday in a similar muold? Do we think its likely we'll see Charles and Downes (if he sticks around) as our 2 CMs/CDMs?

This was quite insightful in the Echo 

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/opinion/24980768.rohl-southamptons-top-target-new-manager/

[Matthew Le God]

 

[kitch]

21 hours ago, Suhari said:

We'll have a pretty strong team for the Championship, from an ability point of view. My question is how many have the mindset we need? The clubs been a shitfest for a while and th is must have impacted morale, motivation etc. We'll surely see some turnover just to get some new faces/fresh minds onto the bus.

Agreed. What we have is a squad full of losers. That's not a personalilty-based observation, it's history. So many of these players have been part of a depressing team at SFC for so long, I don't think they'll ever recover here. A move away for the likes of McCarthy, Bednarek, Stephens, Smallbone...even KWP, it'd do them as much good as it does us. We genuinely need a clearout. Last season papered over the cracks - this is a mentally weak team.

There aren't many I'd retain, given the choice. I realise this will not be the case, and the club will see most of the existing squad as strong options in the Champ, and sure enough many of them could go on to another Champ team and walk into it, but here, with us...I don't see it.

Bednarek is a prime example. Two relegations, two 9-0 defeats (I think?), god knows how many own goals and goals conceded while he's played; Just knock it on the head. Let him move, for his sake as much as ours. He joined for £5m as a reserve and somehow has ended up being first choice, not because he's got better but because the squad has got worse.
Even if we managed to scrape by next season and limp back into the PL, it'd just be rinse & repeat of this season. We need a hard reset, the club's been rotten for years now. It's a shame because it was on a perfect trajectory up until Koeman got poached.

[disconnect]

22 hours ago, Forester said:

I assume Rambo, KWP, THB, Fernandes and Dibbling all get moves to Premier League clubs.  It may be that one or two don’t, which is great, but that is my assumption.

What I think many of our fans don’t recognise is that every one of the following would all be picked up by top six championship sides, every one, a total of 19 players:

McCarthy, Bree, Sugawara, Stephens, Edwards, Wood, Bednarek, ABK, Manning, Downes, Smallbone, Aribo, Charles, Kamaldeen, Edozie, Tall Paul, BBD, Armstrong and Archer

In addition there are others who could still be valuable squad players for the season, fitness permitting, such as Baz, Taylor, Larios, Fraser and Stewart.  Clearly you cannot rely on these five as core players.

I think our main aim should be to retain as many as we can, and minimise the number of purchases we need but spend it on real quality.  A goal scoring winger, another holding midfielder and another number ten would be on my list.  Then if we go back up the majority need to go, for reasons vividly played out this season.

I'm not sure anyone's giving us serious money for these guys. You'd take them on a free, but the only one highlighted who might get some money from is Smallbone and possibly Wood (who has looked awful as often has he's looked good). I'd be pretty confident that Sugawara, Bednarek, Downes, Charles, Sulemana and Archer would comfortably get into most of the top 6 starting 11s. 

[notnowcato]

Whatever squad we go with I'd rather we spend fuck all and no THB style deals - no offence to THB - it just starts to limit your options.  The squad needs some serious trimming, any gaps can be filled by loans.

Should we gain promotion then we need to do a Forest, a complete clear out and buy a new squad that can compete for 17th spot.

[Saint Fan CaM]

19 hours ago, kitch said:

Agreed. What we have is a squad full of losers. That's not a personalilty-based observation, it's history. So many of these players have been part of a depressing team at SFC for so long, I don't think they'll ever recover here. A move away for the likes of McCarthy, Bednarek, Stephens, Smallbone...even KWP, it'd do them as much good as it does us. We genuinely need a clearout. Last season papered over the cracks - this is a mentally weak team.

There aren't many I'd retain, given the choice. I realise this will not be the case, and the club will see most of the existing squad as strong options in the Champ, and sure enough many of them could go on to another Champ team and walk into it, but here, with us...I don't see it.

Bednarek is a prime example. Two relegations, two 9-0 defeats (I think?), god knows how many own goals and goals conceded while he's played; Just knock it on the head. Let him move, for his sake as much as ours. He joined for £5m as a reserve and somehow has ended up being first choice, not because he's got better but because the squad has got worse.
Even if we managed to scrape by next season and limp back into the PL, it'd just be rinse & repeat of this season. We need a hard reset, the club's been rotten for years now. It's a shame because it was on a perfect trajectory up until Koeman got poached.

110%! 👍👌🤞

[Holmes_and_Watson]

20 hours ago, kitch said:

Agreed. What we have is a squad full of losers. That's not a personalilty-based observation, it's history. So many of these players have been part of a depressing team at SFC for so long, I don't think they'll ever recover here. A move away for the likes of McCarthy, Bednarek, Stephens, Smallbone...even KWP, it'd do them as much good as it does us. We genuinely need a clearout. Last season papered over the cracks - this is a mentally weak team.

There aren't many I'd retain, given the choice. I realise this will not be the case, and the club will see most of the existing squad as strong options in the Champ, and sure enough many of them could go on to another Champ team and walk into it, but here, with us...I don't see it.

Bednarek is a prime example. Two relegations, two 9-0 defeats (I think?), god knows how many own goals and goals conceded while he's played; Just knock it on the head. Let him move, for his sake as much as ours. He joined for £5m as a reserve and somehow has ended up being first choice, not because he's got better but because the squad has got worse.
Even if we managed to scrape by next season and limp back into the PL, it'd just be rinse & repeat of this season. We need a hard reset, the club's been rotten for years now. It's a shame because it was on a perfect trajectory up until Koeman got poached.

On their contracts, it's an opportunity to get deals for them too. KWP going at the end of this season. Most of the other going into the last year (and interest in Will). A Jan offer was made for Bednarek. His value will be lower in the summer, so another offer could see him go too.

I don't mind some of them in the Championship, but offers or loans would be fine and free up places for others.

[redkeith]

Wharton and Roberts show that there is some talent in the championship if you look hard enough. 

I like the look of Ivanovic at Millwall, a  mobile centre forward who scores goals too.  Very similar to Delap but scores a few from distance too.

If Plymouth go down, I would buy either of their new Centre backs. Both look to attack the ball at all times and they would add a bit of grit to our back line. They might not be good enough for the PL, but neither were Jos Hoilberg and Mike Pickering. 

We will probably need some new  No 10 /Wide players , as we would likely have only Edozie and Fraser left. 

 Defensive Central Midfield also needs a boost, as we  currently have no back up for Downes and Charles. 

 

I would have us something like 

                                                New Keeper                                                    Res McCarthy, Bazunu

               Sugawara   Edwards   Plymouth    Wellington                              Wood, Bree, Stephens, French Lad,  Manning

                                   Downes        Charles                                                   New, Smallbone , WitMarsh  

                                               New                                                                  Robinson,  new

                   Edozie                Ivanovic          Archer                                       AA,Fraser , New , Ballard 

 

I fully expect Aribo, Dibbling , Fernandes,  Ramsdale , Bednarek THB and Diaz to go. Keeping Sully or Tall Paul would be a bonus.  I would also like to see the youngters get more minutes than we gave Dibbling  SAA and Meghoma last time. 

 

 

 

[macca155]

7 hours ago, redkeith said:

Wharton and Roberts show that there is some talent in the championship if you look hard enough. 

I like the look of Ivanovic at Millwall, a  mobile centre forward who scores goals too.  Very similar to Delap but scores a few from distance too.

If Plymouth go down, I would buy either of their new Centre backs. Both look to attack the ball at all times and they would add a bit of grit to our back line. They might not be good enough for the PL, but neither were Jos Hoilberg and Mike Pickering. 

We will probably need some new  No 10 /Wide players , as we would likely have only Edozie and Fraser left. 

 Defensive Central Midfield also needs a boost, as we  currently have no back up for Downes and Charles. 

 

I would have us something like 

                                                New Keeper                                                    Res McCarthy, Bazunu

               Sugawara   Edwards   Plymouth    Wellington                              Wood, Bree, Stephens, French Lad,  Manning

                                   Downes        Charles                                                   New, Smallbone , WitMarsh  

                                               New                                                                  Robinson,  new

                   Edozie                Ivanovic          Archer                                       AA,Fraser , New , Ballard 

 

I fully expect Aribo, Dibbling , Fernandes,  Ramsdale , Bednarek THB and Diaz to go. Keeping Sully or Tall Paul would be a bonus.  I would also like to see the youngters get more minutes than we gave Dibbling  SAA and Meghoma last time. 

 

 

 

Agree with most of that although iffy about anyone from Plymouth.

No chance of a new goalkeeper. The club rate Bazunu, like it or not he'll probably be our keeper.

At some point Stewart has to show he can actually play a few games.

Bendarek might stay if no one comes in for him.

Whatever happens, this time they have to play the younger players. No team survives in the PL unless they bring talent up with them.

[Matthew Le God]

8 hours ago, macca155 said:

No team survives in the PL unless they bring talent up with them.

Nottingham Forest pretty much signed a new squad after promotion. Something we needed to do last summer.

Edited Saturday at 06:18 by Matthew Le God

[macca155]

8 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Nottingham Forest pretty much signed a new squad after promotion. Something we needed to do last summer.

True MLG but they also hadcs points deduction because of it. However clearly an effective tactic.

[die Mannyschaft]

On 05/02/2025 at 11:55, Charlie Wayman said:

I am more attuned to your valuations (KWP?) but if we lose all of those players in the summer, we will be in freefall next season through the loss of any sort of continuity. For that reason it is unlikely the club will let more than two or three leave unless their contracts have expired. Sensibly they will only let leave the players that they want to let leave.

Dibling, Fernandes & Sulemana must be the backbone of rebuilding a side that can challenge for the title and fare respectably in the Premier League so if SR are serious about a PL future then they must fight tooth and nail to resist their transfers.

If you and others are right and the team has to be rebuilt from the ground up than finding a way back to the PL will be challenging. In a worst case projection it will be years before we can fight our way back. Juric for one is unlikley to hang around for long if our immediate prospects are poor.

Expect that Ipswich & Leicester will be the sides to beat next season so there is only one promotion place left for us and the three clubs from the top six in the Championship this season who miss out on promotion in May.

I can then see players who are in contract and Saints won't release not bothering to play and end up bench warmers. The other option is large scale loan outs. I really don't see many players to bothered with few months left. For some reason the team is not playing at thier capacity be that championship level or other level. 

[James G]

On 30/01/2025 at 15:38, Saint86 said:

The January window is obviously something of a damp squid, but it has made me wonder about next season.

Does anyone have a feel for what our wages to turnover ratio is this season? I've seen it reported that the club has sorted out any serious financial concerns re wages and that we've got headroom for next season. I'd like to think that most of our players have relegation clauses re wages as well.

The squad is currently too large regardless and i think everyone will agree it needs thinning, but you'd like to think that even with pretty major cuts to the playing squad we can still can put together a very solid side for the championship next year.

My assumed list of retained players
As a minimum i think we'll be looking at something like the following being retained:

GK - Bazunu, Macca, Lumley

CBS - Two of THB/Bednarek/Stephens, then Woods and Edwards, Sanda potentially.

Full backs - Suga, Bree, Manning, Wellington, Larios

CM - Downes, Smallbone, Shea Charles

Wingers/Attacking mids - Fraser, Edozie, SAA, Lallana i'd guess.

Strikers - Arma and Stewart (I'd like to see us sell him but it isn't going to happen is it 😅😂).

We also potentially have a couple of the Goztepe players to come in - Juan and Matsuki.

Likely exits/sales
I think we'll likely see most of the following moved on / hitting the exit door. I've tried to put indicative numbers against each of them - i'm sure people will have differing views on these but i've given a rounded down figure at end of this post.

Ramsale (£25M), BBD (7M), Archer (£15M) , Onuachu (£7M), Dibling (£50M), Fernandes (£20M), Sulemana (£10-15M), Aribo (£5M), ABK (5M), Taylor (£1M).

What will be required

Looking at the squad from a championship perspective, I think i'd want to see 1-2 good quality additions in the attacking mids/winger positions (rather than quantity), as well as a good quality striker, possibly an improvement at FB/WB as well. I feel that would see us being very competitive for the automatic spots. Loans (with / without options to buy should aid this as well).

And where i say "quality" in the above, these need to be players with the ability/potential to improve / step up into the prem and continue to improve and develop. Similar to what the likes of lallana, Morgan, Puncheon, Jose, Rickie did for us previously - i.e. the recruitment team need to actually going out and identify and buy good quality younger players with an ability level near to a Fernandes (who we signed for 15M euros) this summer.

In terms of looking beyond promotion and building a team that can not only get promotion but survive - this should also be supplemented by strengthening the positions that are currently not good enough for the prem as it stands - i.e., we should be looking for a player who can become a prem standard CM, an upgrade at CB, and someone who will become a prem standard keeper (assuming ramsdale does leave that is).

You'd like to think we'd have a healthy wedge available - The sales outlined above should bring in circa £130-£140M at the end of the day, hopefully wages are in good order, and we've secured parachute payments. It may also require Solak to dip his hands in his pockets a bit to make sure we land on our feet and don't waste what is going to be one of our last chances to get recruitment right.

I think Fernandes might stay

[Andy Hill]

Keeping Fernandes is key. Unlikely but possible.

[ally_uk]

See we are being linked to Danny Ings 

[Gloucester Saint]

13 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

See we are being linked to Danny Ings 

https://www.hammers.news/transfer-news/good-riddance-as-12-million-west-ham-man-is-reportedly-open-to-joining-his-former-club/

From the player’s end I suspect. Unless BBD is signed by the Blades when they go up, we will have him, AA coming back, Onachu, Sulemana and Stewart, unless we are going to finally enforce retirement on the one striker with a worse injury record than Danny. Danny is washed up at top flight level, could do a good job for a season below that I’m sure, but at least 2 or more need to move on first. 

Edited yesterday at 09:06 by Gloucester Saint

[Wiggles31]

On loan maybe or got a reduced fee. 
 

We really need to sign a CF in the summer - a mobile and physical presence. And a physically strong CDM. 
 

We’ve lacked in these areas since Broja and Romeu left. These two signings must be done correctly. 
 

I’m not including the 10 or so other signings we need. 

[Gloucester Saint]

13 minutes ago, Wiggles31 said:

On loan maybe or got a reduced fee. 
 

We really need to sign a CF in the summer - a mobile and physical presence. And a physically strong CDM. 
 

We’ve lacked in these areas since Broja and Romeu left. These two signings must be done correctly. 
 

I’m not including the 10 or so other signings we need. 

Ings is out of contract in the summer https://www.capology.com/player/danny-ings-33808/ and https://www.claretandhugh.info/counting-down-the-days-on-his-west-ham-career-rivals-await-return/

[leesaint88]

On 07/03/2025 at 14:54, redkeith said:

Wharton and Roberts show that there is some talent in the championship if you look hard enough. 

I like the look of Ivanovic at Millwall, a  mobile centre forward who scores goals too.  Very similar to Delap but scores a few from distance too.

If Plymouth go down, I would buy either of their new Centre backs. Both look to attack the ball at all times and they would add a bit of grit to our back line. They might not be good enough for the PL, but neither were Jos Hoilberg and Mike Pickering. 

We will probably need some new  No 10 /Wide players , as we would likely have only Edozie and Fraser left. 

 Defensive Central Midfield also needs a boost, as we  currently have no back up for Downes and Charles. 

 

I would have us something like 

                                                New Keeper                                                    Res McCarthy, Bazunu

               Sugawara   Edwards   Plymouth    Wellington                              Wood, Bree, Stephens, French Lad,  Manning

                                   Downes        Charles                                                   New, Smallbone , WitMarsh  

                                               New                                                                  Robinson,  new

                   Edozie                Ivanovic          Archer                                       AA,Fraser , New , Ballard 

 

I fully expect Aribo, Dibbling , Fernandes,  Ramsdale , Bednarek THB and Diaz to go. Keeping Sully or Tall Paul would be a bonus.  I would also like to see the youngters get more minutes than we gave Dibbling  SAA and Meghoma last time. 

 

 

 

I'd let Ballard go personally. I've watched him a few times in League One and he looks miles off it, certainly not good enough for the Championship and probably League Two at best. 

[Charlie Wayman]

On 06/03/2025 at 15:53, notnowcato said:

Whatever squad we go with I'd rather we spend fuck all and no THB style deals - no offence to THB - it just starts to limit your options.  The squad needs some serious trimming, any gaps can be filled by loans.

Should we gain promotion then we need to do a Forest, a complete clear out and buy a new squad that can compete for 17th spot.

Good luck with that!

[Charlie Wayman]

4 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

https://www.hammers.news/transfer-news/good-riddance-as-12-million-west-ham-man-is-reportedly-open-to-joining-his-former-club/

From the player’s end I suspect. Unless BBD is signed by the Blades when they go up, we will have him, AA coming back, Onachu, Sulemana and Stewart, unless we are going to finally enforce retirement on the one striker with a worse injury record than Danny. Danny is washed up at top flight level, could do a good job for a season below that I’m sure, but at least 2 or more need to move on first. 

Why on earth do people even contemplate bringing Ings back here? For starters he couldn't get away fast enough last time, secondly he's a busted flush and thirdly he comes across as a self centred narcissistic the very last thing you need when trying to rebuild a team for the future. 

Edited yesterday at 13:45 by Charlie Wayman

[Gloucester Saint]

15 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Why on earth do people even contemplate bringing Ings back here? For starters he couldn't get away fast enough last time, secondly he's a busted flush and thirdly he comes across as a self centred narcissistic the very last thing you need when trying to rebuild a team for the future. 

If he hadn’t been successful for us as a younger player first time around, we wouldn’t be discussing him even. He will still want big wages for the Champ and unless the club grow a pair, Ross Stewart has had his towel over the physio’s bed for the striker’s spot since arriving from Sunderland. 

Edited yesterday at 14:00 by Gloucester Saint

[Saint Fan CaM]

I’m at a loss as to why anyone thinks keeping the majority of the losers in the current 25 man squad would be a good idea. There may well be individually talented players that would do well in the championship, but this squad is not a TEAM…it’s a bunch of misfits forced together by a series of unsuccessful sub-standard managers and management styles. No identity - no guile - few players exhibiting a true ‘footballing brain’ - lack of hunger to create something special.  It could be argued that 9 points flatters us!

I think back to Fonte dropping a division to play for us. I think of a lesser Lambert who got his shit together to become one of the most successful CF’s in the top flight with us. I think of even Ward-Prowse running his bollocks off for 90+ minutes for the cause and having an amazing dead ball skill to boot. There are more examples. Spors can create another successful promotion team, but I don’t think he’ll be doing that with the majority of the current squad sadly.