Man Utd 3-1 Saints - Match Thread

[saintant]

10 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

100% agree we are dominated physically and need to sort that out. Weak physically and weak mentally at this level. 

This is so funny because it implies everything has been better since despite continuing to find ways of losing games at this level, including our worst performance of the season and maybe our worst end to a game this season? At some stage people do really need to look beyond the managers and if two seasons at this level and 5 different managers isn’t the time to do so then you might need to start questioning your sanity.

 

Probably worth remembering that Martin is the only one of our previous managers to deliver success over a season or even a win in the PL this season so far. And people can have me down as defending RM and being Lucy Pinder or whatever they want but  different tactics, performances, hair or things they say in the media is all well and good but this team, led by similar players over two seasons here now continue to find ways to lose football matches at this level.

 

Didn't realise Ivan Juric was in charge for the Spurs game.

[Saint Billy]

I am sick and tired of seeing Armstrong taking shots at goal that are clearly not on and the ball blasting off defenders legs. Pure Sunday league stuff from him in the Premiership.

[trousers]

23 minutes ago, saintant said:

Ivan Juric made a clear nod towards our lack of fitness when interviewed by Adam Blackmore after the game. His words were along the lines of having to work more so that we can compete with intensity after 95 minutes.

"Yeah, but, no, but...."

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

We've got a chance v Burnley in the fa cup 

Good point.  In all seriousness, we are starting to improve under Juric.  I reckon a league win isn’t far off, especially if we can get a couple of players in.

The team needs to cleanse itself of RussBall though.  Maybe get a priest in to perform some sort of exorcism.

 

[jasonbenali]

We knew it already but that game really exposed the depth of our squad after a decent first hour when we should have been a couple ahead. I'd loan out Armstrong and Smallbone to the Championship to build up their confidence for next year as it's not doing them any favours playing in the Prem. And obviously ship out Cornet to free up a loan spot and try to get a decent loan player in to strengthen the front 3. Shame Haaland's just signed that new monster contract as HCDAJ for us... 

Fair play to Aribo who put in an excellent performance and I don't know why Juric took him off as he didn't seem to be tiring.

[John Boy Saint]

Scoreline aside plenty of positives - the fact we were still at the races at 70+ mins says much about the work being done by Juric and his team, especially compared to previous games where we’ve only lasted 45 minutes at best. 
Shame the subs dulled us, I guess they could see the drop off from the bench, but such was our work rate during the match, bringing on players not use to coming on in games being played with such improved endeavour, they were going to struggle get up to the same speed. 
 

[Mr X]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

‘Sorry sir, I know you’ve been impressed in training by him but I promise you he’s ineffectual. Now if you could just look at all the other ineffectual players on your bench and choose one of them instead that would satisfy Saintsweb’

We had Lallana and archer so it was about picking the best of a bad bunch and that's not will smallbone! 

[macca155]

The only target left is Derby's hideous record there really isn't anything else to play for. That is just 6 more points to retain a morsel of dignity. 

This squad and the fan base is damaged to the core, accepting half hearted dross on the field has become the new normal for us. What we are seeing is not normal, it is a classic death spiral of a club that has lost all self belief. 

Last night was a kick in the teeth, genuine elation on 70 minutes, but by the end I couldn't even speak.

However you either give up or look for some positives and some hope going forward. Watching Sulemana rip apart the opposing left back, and Dibling casually turning some pretty experienced defenders was a joy.  A midfield that actually worked made that happen and it's important not to lose those thoughts, despite the hideous capitulation in the last 10 minutes.

Utd had a far superior squad to Saints that's really the nub of it. Juric had nothing to bring on and he admitted as much after the match. There were no credible options on that bench. Maybe Downes but he clearly needs time to get back up to speed. I genuinely hope Charles has been recalled to play for Saints otherwise my optimism for 12 points will be short lived, and that is clutching at straws.

There really needs to be some action in the transfer market, but who on earth would come to Saints at the moment.

Oh woe is us

[Lighthouse]

14 minutes ago, Mr X said:

We had Lallana and archer so it was about picking the best of a bad bunch and that's not will smallbone! 

What exactly is it you think Lallana is the ‘best of’?

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Umm, I think my point all season long was that maybe Martin wasn’t the source of the problems and capitulations and the players not being up to the level was always going to continue whether we changed him or not.

You can rewrite history all you like if it makes you feel better but it doesn’t mean you’ll ever be right.

Surely Martin must take responsibility for the appalling lack of fitness, if nothing else.  O matter how good the players are technically they should at least be able to match the fitness of the opposition.

[RedArmy]

11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

What exactly is it you think Lallana is the ‘best of’?

Experience and leadership for starters. 
 

Which is exactly what we needed to see the game out. 

Edited January 17 by RedArmy

[trousers]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Surely Martin must take responsibility for the appalling lack of fitness, if nothing else.  O matter how good the players are technically they should at least be able to match the fitness of the opposition.

For the love of God almighty, move on man!

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Experience and leadership for starters. 
 

Which is exactly what we needed to see the game out. 

Like Brentford, when he came on in the 87th minute and we conceded twice in stoppage time?

[RedArmy]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Like Brentford, when he came on in the 87th minute and we conceded twice in stoppage time?

Which part of that game were we trying to hold on to at that point exactly? 

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Like Brentford, when he came on in the 87th minute and we conceded twice in stoppage time?

 

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Which part of that game were we trying to hold on to at that point exactly? 

Well, maybe not conceding another 2 goals in 7 minutes because 0-3 is less embarrassing than 0-5. For a man whose, “experience and leadership blah blah… is invaluable,” we seemed to just down tool and lose all concentration at the end of that Brentford game. We’ve literally not ‘seen out’ a single point when Lallana has been brought on this season.

[derry]

When Dibling went off the last thing we needed was Smallbone, a strolling ball recycler. What we needed then was an aggressive attacker to shake up and disrupt the opposition. Smallbone allowed the MU midfield the time and space to pick us apart and get the ball out wide. KWP failed abysmally marking Amad. He needed to get up him rather than stand off and back off. Amad needed to be thinking he's going to get a clattering not all the time to be comfortable.

That last goal was a mental aberration. Ramsdale, with two minutes left in the game and needing an equaliser had to launch it long left. Passing short was sheer stupidity. There is still a residue from the previous style. Downes had the opening to put Sulemana away but ignored it and opted for possession. Sulemana was our ace in the hole but we ignored him once Smallbone came on. Once Utd were pressing forward we needed more balls in behind them not pretty patterns.  

[Saint86]

2 minutes ago, derry said:

When Dibling went off the last thing we needed was Smallbone, a strolling ball recycler. What we needed then was an aggressive attacker to shake up and disrupt the opposition. Smallbone allowed the MU midfield the time and space to pick us apart and get the ball out wide. KWP failed abysmally marking Amad. He needed to get up him rather than stand off and back off. Amad needed to be thinking he's going to get a clattering not all the time to be comfortable.

That last goal was a mental aberration. Ramsdale, with two minutes left in the game and needing an equaliser had to launch it long left. Passing short was sheer stupidity. There is still a residue from the previous style. Downes had the opening to put Sulemana away but ignored it and opted for possession. Sulemana was our ace in the hole but we ignored him once Smallbone came on. Once Utd were pressing forward we needed more balls in behind them not pretty patterns.  

Yes, the smallbone sub was just all wrong sadly. Armstrong up front would have carried the threat of pace and hastled at least. Similar Archer. Even lallana sitting behind the other 2 would have kept the ball and has the guile to find those through balls. 

[Mr X]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

What exactly is it you think Lallana is the ‘best of’?

He's no world beater but just maybe he is a better leader on the pitch and can occasionally pull off the killer pass, him over will smallbone is a no brainer which says something considering lallanas age 

[Fabrice29]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Surely Martin must take responsibility for the appalling lack of fitness, if nothing else.  O matter how good the players are technically they should at least be able to match the fitness of the opposition.

Yeah you can lay that as Martins door for sure, amongst other things he can be blamed for of course. Although I’m not overly sure the players are/were unfit actually but it’s a nice and easy line to use by anyone. I think the players are being asked to play a much more aggressive and physical style of football with less emphasis on keeping the ball and that naturally requires more physical output which will take time to get used to. I would also point out that half our players yesterday were asked to do that under previous management in this league and it still resulted in relegation. At some point it’s not just about actual fitness.

[The Kraken]

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Although I’m not overly sure the players are/were unfit actually.

OK.  I mean, the manager alluded to it, but never mind that.

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I think the players are being asked to play a much more aggressive and physical style of football with less emphasis on keeping the ball and that naturally requires more physical output which will take time to get used to.

So the players need some time to adjust to the extra physical output they're being asked to put in.  But that's not fitness. That's.....something else.

[Fabrice29]

26 minutes ago, Mr X said:

He's no world beater but just maybe he is a better leader on the pitch and can occasionally pull off the killer pass, him over will smallbone is a no brainer which says something considering lallanas age 

I don’t necessarily disagree although I do think it’s all a bit much of a muchness arguing over which slightly out his depth midfielder comes on and then concluding the one that does is the worst player we’ve ever had. However I would just kindly point out that the reason we are in this league is because Smallbone produced a killer pass in the crucial playoff final and a goal in the semi and produced further goals and assists against our closest rivals Leeds throughout the season. He’s nowhere near that ‘no brainier’ shouldn’t be near the squad you’re making out. There’s just quite simply levels to this league.

[Fabrice29]

4 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

OK.  I mean, the manager alluded to it, but never mind that.

So the players need some time to adjust to the extra physical output they're being asked to put in.  But that's not fitness. That's.....something else.

Yes mate, the physical output required has gone up since the new guy has come in because the style of football is different. 

What the manager consistently alluded to last night was poor game management which is the same as the previous managers at this level, including Jones btw who got laughed at because he said this team struggled mentally when playing against 10 men. Quite a few of the players from then also still remain in the squad at the same problems persist. But fitness did get mentioned as well so let’s all focus on that some more, because it’s easier.

[Osvaldorama]

5 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I don’t necessarily disagree although I do think it’s all a bit much of a muchness arguing over which slightly out his depth midfielder comes on and then concluding the one that does is the worst player we’ve ever had. However I would just kindly point out that the reason we are in this league is because Smallbone produced a killer pass in the crucial playoff final and a goal in the semi and produced further goals and assists against our closest rivals Leeds throughout the season. He’s nowhere near that ‘no brainier’ shouldn’t be near the squad you’re making out. There’s just quite simply levels to this league.

One of the biggest differences between championship and the PL is physicality. 
 

The PL features absolute beasts that can overpower you physically and technically. 
 

It was really obvious to most of us that smallbone would be unable to make the step up. I really like him as a guy, but anyone who thinks he should be a PL player is kidding themselves. 
Yet the club seemingly think him and Arma are PL players. 
 

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

One of the biggest differences between championship and the PL is physicality. 
 

The PL features absolute beasts that can overpower you physically and technically. 
 

It was really obvious to most of us that smallbone would be unable to make the step up. I really like him as a guy, but anyone who thinks he should be a PL player is kidding themselves. 
Yet the club seemingly think him and Arma are PL players. 
 

I don’t disagree, in fact I’ve preached for a while now that the club is being hampered by the quality of players at this level. I do think the dismissing of some guys who have produced for us is a bit harsh though, especially when others that haven’t are being lauded on more than one other threads here but it is time to start being ruthless about some of these guys. 

[Wade Garrett]

2 hours ago, jasonbenali said:

We knew it already but that game really exposed the depth of our squad after a decent first hour when we should have been a couple ahead. I'd loan out Armstrong and Smallbone to the Championship to build up their confidence for next year as it's not doing them any favours playing in the Prem. And obviously ship out Cornet to free up a loan spot and try to get a decent loan player in to strengthen the front 3. Shame Haaland's just signed that new monster contract as HCDAJ for us... 

Fair play to Aribo who put in an excellent performance and I don't know why Juric took him off as he didn't seem to be tiring.

I was wrong about Aribo.  As poor as he was against Brentford he has been really good since.  He put a good shift in yesterday and I preferred him in the middle to Flynn Downes.

I was also wrong about Sulemana.  I am wrong about most things to be fair, as my ball and chain often reminds me.

[Chez]

2 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Good point.  In all seriousness, we are starting to improve under Juric.  I reckon a league win isn’t far off, especially if we can get a couple of players in.

I hope that's true, but maybe let's see how we go against against a side going for CL on Sunday. Since RM departed, we have seen a solid draw by parking the bus against Fulham (sure Juric was not at the helm at that point), a decent front-foot-no-nonsense-get-the-ball crossed-into-the-box first half (nothing in the second) against West Ham. A bright opening 15 minutes but then quite frankly piss poor performance against Palace, a dreadful showing all game against Brentford, a solid performance against a weakened Championship side and then last night's great showing for about 75 minutes until we ran out of steam.

[Chez]

21 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

One of the biggest differences between championship and the PL is physicality. 
 

The PL features absolute beasts that can overpower you physically and technically. 
 

It was really obvious to most of us that smallbone would be unable to make the step up. I really like him as a guy, but anyone who thinks he should be a PL player is kidding themselves. 
Yet the club seemingly think him and Arma are PL players. 
 

We signed Downes and Fernandes and Les, so it's not as though the club haven't looked at the midfield area and thought we needed to improve it. Martin rated him. Not sure the `club' could sell him from under him. Besides, he has hardly played, so our poor results aren't really down to him.

Armstrong was absolutely flying towards the end of last season. Everything he hit was going in. Everyone knows he `failed' the last time, but many including myself did wonder if with confidence restored he might make a better stab at it this time around. Obviously not. Again, the club signed Archer and BBD, who I realise haven't worked out, but these were attempts to add PL firepower. 

[Chez]

1 hour ago, derry said:

When Dibling went off the last thing we needed was Smallbone, a strolling ball recycler. What we needed then was an aggressive attacker to shake up and disrupt the opposition.

We were strong in the wide positions last year. In relative terms, we have been very weak and last night showed it. When we turned to the bench, there wasn't anyone to replace Dibling or Sulemena (who was knackered at about 75 minutes).  I'd of gone with Armstrong as he works hard and is quick enough to press opponents, but obviously in terms of attacking/dribbling he isn't the same kind of threat. Not sure what other choice there was really. 

I have to say that it wasn't just Smallbone that was to blame. The whole side was no longer getting as tight as they had been and applying as much pressure. Players got tired and the ones replacing them did not apply the press well either. With the press gone, united dominated possession and the pressure told. What needs to happen going forward is the same starting players need to be a little fitter so they can keep pressing longer and then the players coming on need to carry the baton and do the same.     

[malcolm waldron]

31 minutes ago, Chez said:

We were strong in the wide positions last year. In relative terms, we have been very weak and last night showed it. When we turned to the bench, there wasn't anyone to replace Dibling or Sulemena (who was knackered at about 75 minutes).  I'd of gone with Armstrong as he works hard and is quick enough to press opponents, but obviously in terms of attacking/dribbling he isn't the same kind of threat. Not sure what other choice there was really. 

I have to say that it wasn't just Smallbone that was to blame. The whole side was no longer getting as tight as they had been and applying as much pressure. Players got tired and the ones replacing them did not apply the press well either. With the press gone, united dominated possession and the pressure told. What needs to happen going forward is the same starting players need to be a little fitter so they can keep pressing longer and then the players coming on need to carry the baton and do the same.     

I missed the game so can't comment on the performance unfortunately, but you raise a good point Chez.  Did we play the same man for man marking system all over the pitch as in previous Juric games last night?  If so (and I thought this during the West Ham game) then the players are going to run out of steam in the second half of matches.  So it's back to fitness again.  There's been much talk on here about fitness levels not being what they should be (and yes the eyes don't deceive when at the games) but do we know anything definitive on this other then it being another opportunity to bash the previous manager?  Goals conceded in the last 15 would feel like one worth looking at.

I note we had the same problems under Ralph. 

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

Yes mate, the physical output required has gone up since the new guy has come in because the style of football is different. 

What the manager consistently alluded to last night was poor game management which is the same as the previous managers at this level, including Jones btw who got laughed at because he said this team struggled mentally when playing against 10 men. Quite a few of the players from then also still remain in the squad at the same problems persist. But fitness did get mentioned as well so let’s all focus on that some more, because it’s easier.

Yeah, I get that Russell trained the guys to play a lot of walking football so you don't need much fitness for that. The fact is if you want to compete at the most elite level then your players need to be as fit as the fittest teams and we aren't which is clear from just watching us and comparing how our performance level tends to dip in the last half hour of matches - that is down to Russell and his coaches particularly in terms of the important pre-season work but also days off after weekend games and the fact that he's granted Xmas Day off despite us having a Boxing Day game.

[saintant]

44 minutes ago, malcolm waldron said:

I missed the game so can't comment on the performance unfortunately, but you raise a good point Chez.  Did we play the same man for man marking system all over the pitch as in previous Juric games last night?  If so (and I thought this during the West Ham game) then the players are going to run out of steam in the second half of matches.  So it's back to fitness again.  There's been much talk on here about fitness levels not being what they should be (and yes the eyes don't deceive when at the games) but do we know anything definitive on this other then it being another opportunity to bash the previous manager?  Goals conceded in the last 15 would feel like one worth looking at.

I note we had the same problems under Ralph. 

The difference is we played a high intensity press under Ralph whereas under Russell it was largely walking football so no excuse for running out of steam unless due to poor fitness.

[malcolm waldron]

29 minutes ago, saintant said:

The difference is we played a high intensity press under Ralph whereas under Russell it was largely walking football so no excuse for running out of steam unless due to poor fitness.

I was actually referring to running out of steam in recent matches under Juric, due to the higher intensity and work rate.  Under RM I dont remember us running out of steam, I just remember needing to score deep in stoppage time in a few games - and passing free-kicks backwards.  

[Chez]

1 hour ago, malcolm waldron said:

I missed the game so can't comment on the performance unfortunately, but you raise a good point Chez.  Did we play the same man for man marking system all over the pitch as in previous Juric games last night?  If so (and I thought this during the West Ham game) then the players are going to run out of steam in the second half of matches.  So it's back to fitness again.  There's been much talk on here about fitness levels not being what they should be (and yes the eyes don't deceive when at the games) but do we know anything definitive on this other then it being another opportunity to bash the previous manager?  Goals conceded in the last 15 would feel like one worth looking at.

I note we had the same problems under Ralph. 

The workrate (and amount of pacey running) in the first half must have been pretty high as we went man for man and were at the heals of every single United player when they had the ball. We forced them to lose possession so many times because of this. The press was first class and they couldn't deal with it.

I'd say we suffered because of that. At about half way through the second half we weren't getting close enough at all to impact their passing and the subs didn't help revive the press. Not sure why, perhaps they dropped too deep and got caught between two stalls or maybe the players that weren't subbed undermined the team press?

It certainly did remind me of a lot of Ralph games where we got murdered in the latter stages as the space opened and double team defenses etc. weren't possible. United did to us what we had been doing to them. The lack of intensity later on invited United to keep the ball and attack and they did it well. 

[Chez]

30 minutes ago, malcolm waldron said:

I was actually referring to running out of steam in recent matches under Juric, due to the higher intensity and work rate.  Under RM I dont remember us running out of steam, I just remember needing to score deep in stoppage time in a few games - and passing free-kicks backwards.  

In the championship under RM it was often us pressing hard at the death. In the Prem it's hard to say, as towards the end of the 90 minutes the game was usually long over!

[SaintTex]

6 hours ago, macca155 said:

Last night was a kick in the teeth, genuine elation on 70 minutes, but by the end I couldn't even speak.

honestly, i didn't allow myself to be elated for the first 70 minutes.

self preservation for my mental health

[Saint NL]

Looks like Zirkzee is in trouble for his dick grabbing celebration last night 😂

[OneMrsWallace]

9 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Umm, I think my point all season long was that maybe Martin wasn’t the source of the problems and capitulations and the players not being up to the level was always going to continue whether we changed him or not.

You can rewrite history all you like if it makes you feel better but it doesn’t mean you’ll ever be right.

Anyone here in 2028? Yawn. 

[Dark Munster]

55 minutes ago, SaintTex said:

honestly, i didn't allow myself to be elated for the first 70 minutes.

self preservation for my mental health

Me too, especially when Smallbone came on. I groaned when he did and said to myself "shit, game over for us." It wasn't all his fault of course, but as others have said our bench was crap.

The first 70+ minutes were excellent. Which puts paid to the myth that we've only got a couple of decent players, which some are using as an excuse for that muppet RM.

[notnowcato]

20 hours ago, trousers said:

Yep, they loved him so much he even had his own hero-worship thread on their forum....

https://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/306819/why-smallbone-keep?page=1

 

 

Conclusive 🙄 😉

[Whitey Grandad]

29 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

Looks like Zirkzee is in trouble for his dick grabbing celebration last night 😂

Whose dick did he grab?

[Toussaint]

6 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Yet the club seemingly think him and Arma are PL players. 
 

I didn’t think the club necessarily think that, now Martin has gone, right now Ivan is having a good look at what he has, he hasn’t seen much of Smallbone, now he has probably seen enough. I think it’s a good approach, give everyone a chance, wipe the slate clean, see what we need and who we don’t need and reset. I do wonder why he prefers Armstrong to Archer, but he did give a bit of a clue in his interview this week, reading between the lines he’s either physically or mentally not in the right place, or both.

[Saint NL]

42 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Whose dick did he grab?

His own

https://vxtwitter.com/manufcnow/status/1880173896978346339

 

 

 

[Zorba]

6 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

His own

https://vxtwitter.com/manufcnow/status/1880173896978346339

 

 

 

what a plum!

[trousers]

1 hour ago, notnowcato said:

Conclusive 🙄 😉

Almost as conclusive as the complete absence of any examples / evidence that accompanied the original opposite ascertain...? 

Edited January 17 by trousers

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Saint NL said:

His own

https://vxtwitter.com/manufcnow/status/1880173896978346339

 

 

 

Doesn’t everybody do that? Not in public, I’ll grant you.

[Saint Pete]

3 hours ago, SaintTex said:

honestly, i didn't allow myself to be elated for the first 70 minutes.

self preservation for my mental health

Yep, absolutely. This many years has supporting Saints has conditioned me to expecting the worst for the whole game and only feeling elated after the final whistle. (on the rare occasions we do actually win!) 🙁

[Saint Billy]

27 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Doesn’t everybody do that? Not in public, I’ll grant you.

If I could find it I would.

[Whitey Grandad]

35 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

If I could find it I would.

Where did you last leave it?

[Maggie May]

On 16/01/2025 at 23:58, Micky said:

I hate to say it, but I really don't think we are going to get there.  I think our best bet scenario may come down to teams being safe and 'on the beach' come the end of season, maybe West Ham, Fulham, Leicester and Everton games MAY give us a chance.  Competitively I don't think we've got a cat in hells chance, but those game may just give us a lifeline, how fucking sad is it that our goal is to try and get 12 points in a season..!

I got laughed off the forum for suggesting this very scenario after the West Ham game (yes, the one everyone was raving about seeing an improvement).

Whether it’s Juric or Martin in charge, this group of players do not have what it takes to battle in this league. We don’t look at all competitive against teams we should be at least trying to take points from and throw away points in matches we play well in.