The benefits (or otherwise) of 4-4-2 / 4-3-3

[Saint Fan CaM]

Thinking on the last game and our ‘new’ style of play, it’s apparent to me that 5 at the back could be damaging our ability to boss midfield and support any form of attack. For example, when we’re around the opposition box and a loose ball comes out to the edge of the area or beyond, sometimes there’s a big gaping hole with no-one available to re-cycle it back in the mixer or better still run onto the ball and shoot. 

4-4-2 or 4-3-3 seems to be a more sensible option to address the above, but of course it does beg two questions…

1. Will that formation leave our defence too exposed, given the quality of player available?

2. Which of the five defenders do you drop - it’s likely to be a CB rather than a LB or RB?

Contenders for the two slots for me would be THB, Wood, Bednarek and possibly ABK (can he be registered in January’s window?). First choice if pushed would be THB and Wood. First choice full backs would be KWP and one of either Suga, Taylor, Bree or Manning - they’re all as mundane as each other. 

Lastly, with this system you need an enforcer at DCM to lie relatively deep and I’m not sure that’s Downes, let alone Aribo or Smallbone. Big Les is a good option now we’re rid of Russball, but I’d argue he’s more a box-to-box midfielder. We need a decent loanee DCM enforcer in the window.

Thoughts?

Edited 27 December, 2024 by Saint Fan CaM

[Turkish]

A couple of pacy widemen, a ball winning midfielder with a midfield terrier along side him. A big man up top with a good little 'un to get onto their flick ons. Dont mess about with it! Get rid of it!! Get it in the mixer!!! Get stuck in!!! 

[Toussaint]

27 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Thinking on the last game and our ‘new’ style of play, it’s apparent to me that 5 at the back could be damaging our ability to boss midfield and support any form of attack. For example, when we’re around the opposition box and a loose ball comes out to the edge of the area or beyond, sometimes there’s a big gaping hole with no-one available to re-cycle it back in the mixer or better still run onto the ball and shoot. 

4-4-2 or 4-3-3 seems to be a more sensible option to address the above, but of course it does beg two questions…

1. Will that formation leave our defence too exposed, given the quality of player available?

2. Which of the five defenders do you drop - it’s likely to be a CB rather than a LB or RB?

Contenders for the two slots for me would be THB, Wood, Bednarek and possibly ABK (can he be registered in January’s window?). First choice if pushed would be THB and Wood. First choice full backs would be KWP and one of either Suga, Taylor, Bree or Manning - they’re all as mundane as each other. 

Lastly, with this system you need an enforcer at DCM to lie relatively deep and I’m not sure that’s Downes, let alone Aribo or Smallbone. Big Les is a good option now we’re rid of Russball, but I’d argue he’s more a box-to-box midfielder. We need a decent loanee DCM enforcer in the window.

Thoughts?

Maybe he’s working with what he has got, because our midfield is woefully short of depth and quality? On the current showing it’s really only Lesley and Fernandes that are up to premier league standard. 

[StrangelyBrown]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

4-4-2

Thoughts?

Have I woken up in 1982?

[benjii]

I think, "you what, mush?".

[SNSUN]

 

But I agree with only 2 CBs as you can have the extra midfielder or attacker, despite our defence being tighter in the last couple of games, there’s no point being tight defensively if you’re not scoring goals. The balance looked a bit better in the last game vs West Ham but we still went and made a defensive mistake. One fewer CB, one fewer person to make a mistake! 😁

Get a proper DM in in January to shield the defence and let’s try and score some goals.

[Turkish]

we jest but football is cyclical. I wouldn't be at all surprised if sooner rather than later some genius hipster manager comes up with the idea of getting the ball forward quickly in as few passes as possible playing 4 across midfield with two pacey wingers getting in behind the inverted full backs, whipping crosses into the box to the big man then everyone follows suit. The data even tells us that the fewer touches to get to the opposition penalty area is better the more time the ball is played into the opposition penalty area the more chance you've got of scoring so your XG goes up etc

[StrangelyBrown]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

we jest but football is cyclical. I wouldn't be at all surprised if sooner rather than later some genius hipster manager comes up with the idea of getting the ball forward quickly in as few passes as possible playing 4 across midfield with two pacey wingers getting in behind the inverted full backs, whipping crosses into the box to the big man then everyone follows suit. The data even tells us that the fewer touches to get to the opposition penalty area is better the more time the ball is played into the opposition penalty area the more chance you've got of scoring so your XG goes up etc

You mean there might be hope for Nathan F Jones after all??? Maybe Rasmus was onto something......

 

 

 

Or was that one too many egg nogs

[Saint Fan CaM]

5 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

Have I woken up in 1982?

Seriously? Think you’ve been asleep since 1982 - there are so many variations on formation, but five at the back is not some modern fail safe solution…in fact it’s starting to show its age IMO. So far no-one has expressed a preference as to who they would chose as our two best CB’s in a back four, so I guess everyone is happy with that formation. 🤔

[danjosaint]

Still 4231 for me and suits our squad 

[Chewy]

It’s a bit of an oddity that a number of the very best English teams from my lifetime have played a lopsided 442, normally with a left winger and more of a wide right midfielder than winger (Barnes/Houghton, Giggs/Beckham, Overmars/Parlour, Highway/I think Ray Kennedy). In each of those the left winger was definitely more of an attacker than their counterpart.
they all also had a deeper lying second forward behind the striker (Beardsley, Cantona, Bergkamp, Dalgeish). And often one full back more attacking than the other, also on the left (Irwin/Neville, Kennedy/Neal). 
Its funny because we all line up our formations in some sort of symmetry but football doesn’t happen in symmetry on the pitch; I think the above suggests a rough balance of 343 from back to front works, but with a right to left balance of 442. 
 

On a personal note I don’t like being wedded completely to a system anyway; I kind of like setting up with ten and having one spare to utilize as the game situation dictates. So 3 to defend (2 cbs and a dm), 3 to be box-to-box (full backs and an ‘8’) and three attackers (2 wide one centre). The 11th guy can be a striker, number 10, another deeper midfielder or a 3rd centre back. All nice and symmetrical and completely at odds with my own analysis above 😂

[Saint_clark]

I know our defenders are crap. And I would rather see the extra man in midfield. 

Problem is, Downes is our only holding midfielder and he's been pretty poor this season. So we're probably better off sticking with a 3 at the back with THB, Bednarek and Wood. 

Either that or try Frazer Richardson as a holding midfielder just running sideways across the pitch. 

[Matty's Caddy]

8 hours ago, SNSUN said:

 

But I agree with only 2 CBs as you can have the extra midfielder or attacker, despite our defence being tighter in the last couple of games, there’s no point being tight defensively if you’re not scoring goals. The balance looked a bit better in the last game vs West Ham but we still went and made a defensive mistake. One fewer CB, one fewer person to make a mistake! 😁

Get a proper DM in in January to shield the defence and let’s try and score some goals.

But we really should have scored 2 or 3 before that

[Turkish]

5 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

You mean there might be hope for Nathan F Jones after all??? Maybe Rasmus was onto something......

 

 

 

Or was that one too many egg nogs

In a world of percentage football the man who coaches long ball is king.

percentage football = the 80s version of data driven. Like i cyclical 

[SNSUN]

2 hours ago, Matty's Caddy said:

But we really should have scored 2 or 3 before that

True but that's what happens with a lack of confidence and, in Onuachu's case, a lack of playing time and rustiness. Onuachu can score goals, he's proved that. Keep playing him and he'll come good. 

That said I strongly suspect SR will be looking to offload players in the window, I suspect we'll lose Lesley who is rumoured to be going back to Chelsea and possibly Onuachu, just as both have started to show what they could offer us. Tis the SR way.

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, SNSUN said:

True but that's what happens with a lack of confidence and, in Onuachu's case, a lack of playing time and rustiness. Onuachu can score goals, he's proved that. Keep playing him and he'll come good. 

That said I strongly suspect SR will be looking to offload players in the window, I suspect we'll lose Lesley who is rumoured to be going back to Chelsea and possibly Onuachu, just as both have started to show what they could offer us. Tis the SR way.

My feeling is there are others more likely to be shown the window (door) before TP and Big Les exit, who as you say have actually shown they offer something. For example Cornet, Sulemana and one of the many LB’s we have could go first. I also reckon Dibling will go if a sizeable offer comes in - the sacrificial lamb to the survival cause.