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Saints 0-1 West Ham - Match Thread

coalman

By coalman
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coalman

coalman

Posted
Posted (edited)

Jack is back. Or is he? Ivan Juric begins his reign with a home tie against West Ham and the decisions which exposed his predecessor. Is Jack Stephens our captain? Is he our 3rd best centre back? Should be play him in the floating midfield fullback central defender role he has made his own. It's a chance to set the tone for the rest of the season or lay the foundations for another 12 months of sub mediocrity. The good news is Juric joins on that rarest of things for Southampton - a 0-0 draw. Not the surprise that we didn't score as that is de riguer these days but the fact that we didn't concede in the league for only the second time this season. 

West Ham have their own problems. Torn between sticking with their manager or joining the manager merry go round. Their forum will be buzzing with talk about Graham Potter and getting someone in to get a tune out of what is, on paper, a really good squad. They'll be wary of a Saints side that doesn't seem to be rolling over and waiting for belly rubs any more. If they're going to score goals they might have to do it themselves. Had we played this game 2 weeks ago this would be the corner turning opportunity for Lopetegui - now maybe not so much.

For the new manager, there's not a lot of time to start making a difference. The first likely change is that the expected 3 day break between today's game and the next is unlikely to happen. Juric seems like a man who'll want to get at his players in training. The players will just have to adjust to the brave new world where they're expected to turn up to work at inconvenient times - like in-between matches. Sadly we're still light up front. Dibling looks knackered. Armstrong looks Armstrong. Onuachu and Archer look to be the best chance of supplying firepower which is not any manager's happy place.

In the middle of the park it's a different story. We have the option of playing central midfielders for the first time in a long time with instructions to make tackles. Big Les might well feature after a promising second half against Fulham. Our defence has a newly restored Ramsdale behind them and has remembered how to keep clean sheets. A win and suddenly Saints are dreaming about the most improbable of outcomes this season - beating Derby's points record. Meanwhile in a darkened room, Russell Martin will be praying for business as usual - that's the difference between Manchester United and Accrington Stanley for his next gig. If it turns out it was possible to get more out of these players his job prospects look pretty bleak.

With the new year approaching, Saints fans are experiencing a strange emotion - anticipation. Instead of doing the same things and being surprised by the same results in a dog ate my homework style masterclass in blamelessness we have a new manager and chance to do something different. Instead of the dull ache of creeping horror from a rapidly approach match we have the double edged sword of hope. In Ivan we trust.

Edited by coalman
  • Like 16
Killers Knee

Killers Knee

Posted
Posted

Will Juric have time to drill us in his preferred, 3-4-2-1, and what will it look like??

                              Archer

                    Dibbling    Fernandes

      Manning   BigLes   Downes   KWP

                    Jan.      THB      Wood

                              Ramsdale

  • Like 4
Harry_SFC

Harry_SFC

Posted
Posted (edited)

Ramsdale; Wood, Bednarek, THB; KWP, Les, Downes, Sugawara; Fernandes, Archer, Onuachu.

Rest Dibling, drop Aribo and Armstrong. Both were poor today. 

Edited by Harry_SFC
  • Like 4
Patches O Houlihan

Patches O Houlihan

Posted
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, OneMrsWallace said:

Will Charlie Taylor re-emerge for this squad? 

He seems like a LB in a back 4 or a LCB in a 3 to me - not really a wing back which Ivan seems to favour. 

So for him to be in both Wood and Shoehorn would need to be stepped down for him, and Wood has certainly shown enough reasons to keep his place.

For me it is a choice of KWP & Manning, or KWP & Sugawara - and do Bree & Manning fit in anywhere?

Does Manning step up alongside Downes to play in a double pivot? Can Lallana get fit enough to play there and offer some searching through balls? Or are we playing Aribo or Big Les there?

Front 3 kind of depends whether he wants to play two up top, or more likely one. I think our squad strength is on the wing/attacking midfield rather than striker so I think I would play Tall Paul alternating with Archer as dictated by our opponents style/squad. Fernandes/Dibling/Aribo/Lallana all offer something in the supporting roles.

Here's what I would go for playing an Ivan Juric formation. KWP told to practice airborne crosses and if he hasn't played any by halftime expect to be substituted for Sugawara. Downes plays the Wanyama enforcer role, while Adam plays the Morgan playmaker role. 

                                          Ramsdale

               THB                     Bednarek                       Wood

KWP                 Downes (C)                Lallana                     Manning

                    Dibling                                  Fernandes

                                             Tall Paul

Likely subs:

Sugawara (KWP/Manning), Archer (Paul), Aribo (Lallana) , Armstrong (Dibling)

 

 

 

Edited by Patches O Houlihan
Gave captaincy to Flynn because he always plays, is central, gets stuck in, and may still be here next year when THB gets poached
Jack

Jack

Posted
Posted

It’s a must win isn’t it if we’re ever going to kick off the most unlikely of survival stories. Need to play for the win, if we come up short then fair enough 

  • Like 2
saintant

saintant

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Killers Knee said:

Will Juric have time to drill us in his preferred, 3-4-2-1, and what will it look like??

                              Archer

                    Dibbling    Fernandes

      Manning   BigLes   Downes   KWP

                    Jan.      THB      Wood

                              Ramsdale

Not sure Juric will be picking Dibling after seeing him today - he looks set for a spell on the bench which is fair enough at his young age with much still to learn. I didn't think Dibling and Fernandes worked as the pair of attacking midfielders today.

  • Like 3
saintant

saintant

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, trousers said:

I reckon Big Les and Sulemana will be in the starting 12 for this one

Can certainly see Big Les starting but not sure about Sulemana.

Ramsadale

Wood Bednarek THB

Sugawara KWP

Downes Big Les

Lallana Fernandes

Archer

  • Like 4
BotleySaint

BotleySaint

Posted
Posted

Having watched the game today I think Juric will see we offered close to zero threat up front.

Hopefully he'll have some ideas about improving that.

At least it's fresh eyes looking at the problem and not someone deeply embedded in doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Unless IJ is a miracle worker I can only see a draw at best. He will however, have learnt some things today so I’m nearer a draw than a loss. Which I’d take if offered right now.

Need to be going for the win but a draw would still be progress, yes. Need to stop being such pushovers. 

Wade Garrett

Wade Garrett

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, saintant said:

Can certainly see Big Les starting but not sure about Sulemana.

Ramsadale

Wood Bednarek THB

Sugawara KWP

Downes Big Les

Lallana Fernandes

Archer

Like that line-up.

Get an hour out of Lallana and then bring Dibling on to run at a tiring West Ham.

  • Like 2
austsaint

austsaint

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Like that line-up.

Get an hour out of Lallana and then bring Dibling on to run at a tiring West Ham.

Good call.   Happy to see Sugawara and KWP retaining the wing back roles too, rather than Manning.  Dibling was below par today, so a sub role might work better.  Depending on the state of the game I’d welcome cameo roles for Tall Pall and Sulemana.   Very interested to see if Les Ugo can build on his impressive performance yesterday.    Suddenly a bit of interest and anticipation in watching Saints has returned.

  • Like 3
for_heaven's_Saint

for_heaven's_Saint

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, austsaint said:

Good call.   Happy to see Sugawara and KWP retaining the wing back roles too, rather than Manning.  Dibling was below par today, so a sub role might work better.  Depending on the state of the game I’d welcome cameo roles for Tall Pall and Sulemana.   Very interested to see if Les Ugo can build on his impressive performance yesterday.    Suddenly a bit of interest and anticipation in watching Saints has returned.

I think I read that Jurić’s teams usually put in a high number of crosses? If he’s going to do the same here we might need a left footer at LWB. 

  • Like 3
WALK DMC

WALK DMC

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, for_heaven's_Saint said:

I think I read that Jurić’s teams usually put in a high number of crosses? If he’s going to do the same here we might need a left footer at LWB. 

Isn't Wellington joining in January ? He could be the left footed wing back that we need.

  • Like 1
Football Special

Football Special

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, WALK DMC said:

Isn't Wellington joining in January ? He could be the left footed wing back that we need.

Forgot about him, we don't have any room in the squad until some leave? Or is he off to Turkey?

beatlesaint

beatlesaint

Posted
Posted

I wouldnt be surprised to see Tall Paul start this one. Given the way IJ likes to play and given the fact that on the odd occasion we did get the ball forward against Fulham there was absolutely nobody to hold it up while the midfield could join in its crying out for a target man, especially since we have abandoned "being brave" and are more likely to hit it longer now.

Ransdale

Suga/Bree, THB, Jan B, Wood, KWP

Downes, Fernandes, Les

TP, Archer

 

Dibling on the bench to come on and run riot for the last half an hour or so.  

  • Like 1
east-stand-nic

east-stand-nic

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Killers Knee said:

Will Juric have time to drill us in his preferred, 3-4-2-1, and what will it look like??

                              Archer

                    Dibbling    Fernandes

      Manning   BigLes   Downes   KWP

                    Jan.      THB      Wood

                              Ramsdale

I think one change for me there. Put TP up on his own to win balls and hold up play, put archer back where dibling is so they can work off each other as I think dibling has issues and needs a rest.

Nolan

Nolan

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, for_heaven's_Saint said:

I think I read that Jurić’s teams usually put in a high number of crosses? If he’s going to do the same here we might need a left footer at LWB. 

Left footed Ryan Manning competing with Left Footed Welington by mid-January then.

Midfield_General

Midfield_General

Posted
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Killers Knee said:

Will Juric have time to drill us in his preferred, 3-4-2-1, and what will it look like??

                              Archer

                    Dibbling    Fernandes

      Manning   BigLes   Downes   KWP

                    Jan.      THB      Wood

                              Ramsdale

Drop Manning, Put KWP on the left and Suga at RWB and I still maintain that that side isn’t that bad. There are obviously no goals in it at this level, but it’s not ‘6 points from 17 games bad’, certainly. Keep it tight as per Fulham, eke out a 1-0 from somewhere, get a little bit of confidence and belief starting to show, and maybe we can have a decent second half of the season. 

Edited by Midfield_General
  • Like 1
Patches O Houlihan

Patches O Houlihan

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Drop Manning, Put KWP on the left and Suga at RWB and I still maintain that that side isn’t that bad. Not ‘6 points from 17 games bad’, certainly. Keep it tight as per Fulham, eke out a 1-0 from somewhere, get a little bit of confidence and belief starting to show, and maybe we can have a decent second half of the season. 

The problem with playing KWP on the left is that he either runs into trouble on the edge of the area and loses it, or turns and plays a diagonal backwards/infield pass that 9/10 times comes to nothing. He doesn't provide crosses with his favoured right foot when played on the right, so no chance of seeing it when he plays on the left.

Manning is left footed, more defensive minded than Suga/KWP thus allowing those more attacking minded fullbacks off the leash to attack properly. When Manning does get through he is capable of putting in a half decent cross.

We have seen balls on the floor to Archer cut out endlessly by opposition defenders, which is why I think we need Tall Paul to play. He can hold it up and then play it on to Archer who runs into space, or he can provide knock downs from crosses for Archer who seems to be quite quick with his feet at short range in the box.

Edited by Patches O Houlihan
  • Like 2
Midfield_General

Midfield_General

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

The problem with playing KWP on the left is that he either runs into trouble on the edge of the area and loses it, or turns and plays a diagonal backwards/infield pass that 9/10 times comes to nothing. He doesn't provide crosses with his favoured right foot when played on the right, so no chance of seeing it when he plays on the left.

Manning is left footed, more defensive minded than Suga/KWP thus allowing those more attacking minded fullbacks off the leash to attack properly. When Manning does get through he is capable of putting in a half decent cross.

We have seen balls on the floor to Archer cut out endlessly by opposition defenders, which is why I think we need Tall Paul to play. He can hold it up and then play it on to Archer who runs into space, or he can provide knock downs from crosses for Archer who seems to be quite quick with his feet at short range in the box.

All very fair points and I don’t disagree at all. I just can’t accept that Ryan Manning has any place in a premier league football team. But then neither do  McCarthy, Lumley, Sulemana, Armstrong and plenty of others who’ve been playing, and that’s one of the reasons we are where we are. 

  • Like 4
Cabrone

Cabrone

Posted
Posted

Just play with determination and give it your best shot, that might be enough.

Oh and no fannying around at the back, if it's in the 6 yard box put your damn laces through it - we are not Man City 😀

  • Like 1
WALK DMC

WALK DMC

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

All very fair points and I don’t disagree at all. I just can’t accept that Ryan Manning has any place in a premier league football team. But then neither do  McCarthy, Lumley, Sulemana, Armstrong and plenty of others who’ve been playing, and that’s one of the reasons we are where we are. 

Weirdly, I've thought that Manning has performed well this season and displayed skills that I wouldn't have given him credit for last season. I'm still not keen with him as left back as I think his defensive abilities get exposed, but as a left wing back, he hasn't let us down this year; and hasn't looked out of place in the Premiership. 

  • Like 4
iansums

iansums

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, WALK DMC said:

Weirdly, I've thought that Manning has performed well this season and displayed skills that I wouldn't have given him credit for last season. I'm still not keen with him as left back as I think his defensive abilities get exposed, but as a left wing back, he hasn't let us down this year; and hasn't looked out of place in the Premiership. 

Agree with this and if you're playing wing-backs then the LWB really needs to be left-footed IMO.

  • Like 1
derry

derry

Posted
Posted

Manning's biggest problem is his over reliance on his left foot which unless he is already facing outwards makes him turn back inside and pass backwards which for me is a major impediment.

  • Like 4
VectisSaint

VectisSaint

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, Cabrone said:

Just play with determination and give it your best shot, that might be enough.

Oh and no fannying around at the back, if it's in the 6 yard box put your damn laces through it - we are not Man City 😀

We're better than Man City, at least according to 'form' table 😂

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3
trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted (edited)

Agree with the concerns about playing KWP on his 'wrong side'... However, given he's one of our few premier league quality players, I'm wondering if we could play him in a midfield role, thus freeing up the left wing back position for a naturally left footed player, whilst playing both Sagu and KWP on the right hand side...

#thinkingoutloud

Edited by trousers
die Mannyschaft

die Mannyschaft

Posted
Posted

I think the team is confused up with possession v attaching football or any new style we need to adopt. We only have a few players that naturally run and take players on. More crosses have beeb sent into box but still way shirt on shots on target. I'll go Saints 1-0 WHU but if only one shot on target at 40 mins then Saints 0-1 WHU. A much improved Saints at Fulham just need to get goals.

notnowcato

notnowcato

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, BotleySaint said:

Having watched the game today I think Juric will see we offered close to zero threat up front.

 

Stevie Wonder saw that... and so did his dog.

  • Haha 1
Matty's Caddy

Matty's Caddy

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, trousers said:

Agree with the concerns about playing KWP on his 'wrong side'... However, given he's one of our few premier league quality players, I'm wondering if we could play him in a midfield role, thus freeing up the left wing back position for a naturally left footed player, whilst playing both Sagu and KWP on the right hand side...

#thinkingoutloud

KWP SERIOUSLY PISS POOR

  • Haha 2
  • Confused 1
trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, Matty's Caddy said:

KWP SERIOUSLY PISS POOR

Sssshhh... Hush ye.... Don't shout about it man.... we don't want the truth getting out FFS....

trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, notnowcato said:

Stevie Wonder saw that... and so did his dog.

Didn't realise Stevie had been to every Saints premier league game under Martin.... Fair play to him for sticking it out... 

notnowcato

notnowcato

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, trousers said:

Didn't realise Stevie had been to every Saints premier league game under Martin.... Fair play to him for sticking it out... 

Think you need to move on Trousers. 

  • Haha 1
saintant

saintant

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Andy Hill said:

Please please please please don’t shoehorn in JS ?! Other options are far better.

The 3 centre backs performed pretty well at Fulham watched by IJ so I would think Stephens will have to sit it out until that changes and, meanwhile, try to impress him in training

  • Like 1
Football Special

Football Special

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, saintant said:

The 3 centre backs performed pretty well at Fulham watched by IJ so I would think Stephens will have to sit it out until that changes and, meanwhile, try to impress him in training

I heard Stephens drove into training today  playing death metal music loudly from his car....

  • Haha 10

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