Ivan Juric

[notnowcato]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

 

Let me remind you of some pertinent facts…

1. We finished 4th, scraped the final and frankly some of the wins/draws getting there were hardly convincing, often going behind and seeing awful gaffs at the back between a flapping Bazunu and slow defenders. OK, so we got promoted…but then so did Ipswich and Leicester who were better than us in the league below and still find themselves staring at relegation. I suppose the income for the Prem will be useful keeping the three relegated teams afloat.

2. With a supposedly improved team from the one that got promoted, we’ve achieved the huge haul of 9 points and have shown they’re too fragile to beat supposedly weaker teams on occasion. Yeah, this team are World beaters alright! 😂

3. Whatever has happened to the squad since SR took over has to be unpicked and repaired in substantial fashion, because whatever the strategy has been, it’s been an unmitigated disaster.

4. Any team with serious intention of promotion and making even a moderate success of a season in the Prem, needs to preferably start building a Prem team in the Championship as that allows bonding and on-field empathy early on and so morale will be much better. The majority of the players in the squad are just not fit for purpose if we want a SUSTAINABLE return to the Prem - it’s as simple as that.  
 

Outside of Rambo, THB, Dibling, Fernandes and perhaps Archer and Welington (assuming KWP is going anyway), I’d love to see your list of players that you think will be good enough for next season. To my mind, if you start arguing for Downes or Bednarek for example, there’s no reason for not including 7-8 others of equal (poor) standard and then all of a sudden you’ve got the entirety of a shit team staying for another round of unremarkable displays and loser mentality. I’m sick of it and while I doubt it will happen, I want to see a cull of epic proportions so I get to see my team consist of players who are capable and give a shit.

As much as I agree with a lot of what you've written, point 4 I don't believe is achievable.  The gap between PL and Championship is far too big to bridge, they're are effectively two very different competitions and you need two very different squads.   Forest nailed it when they came up, many if not most pundits mocked the Forest approach said there was no chance 20 new players would gel to compete in the PL, now given what we've seen with the past 2 sets of teams promoted it seems the most likely way to succeed. 

[hypochondriac]

49 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

 

Let me remind you of some pertinent facts…

1. We finished 4th, scraped the final and frankly some of the wins/draws getting there were hardly convincing, often going behind and seeing awful gaffs at the back between a flapping Bazunu and slow defenders. OK, so we got promoted…but then so did Ipswich and Leicester who were better than us in the league below and still find themselves staring at relegation. I suppose the income for the Prem will be useful keeping the three relegated teams afloat.

I agree but that doesn't mean that these aren't good enough squad players. I would suggest that a combination of our playing style and the quality of players we supplement our squad players with will determine how we do. Bree, Bazunu, and Edozie- all with more experience and in a different more effective system hopefully- should be good enough to go for promotion alongside the likes of Charles, Edward, maybe Fernandes, Archer, Armstrong etc 

49 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

2. With a supposedly improved team from the one that got promoted, we’ve achieved the huge haul of 9 points and have shown they’re too fragile to beat supposedly weaker teams on occasion. Yeah, this team are World beaters alright! 😂

Now you're just making things up. The premier league is an entirely different proposition to the championship. 90% of our players are clearly not good enough for the Premier League but we aren't going to be in the Premier League next year so they will most likely be good enough for the Championship which is what matters at this point. Clearly you want to bring in the best players you can but we aren't going to be able to bring in pre ready players in every position so we will necessarily have some good championship players that should then hopefully be ditched if we go up. 

3. Whatever has happened to the squad since SR took over has to be unpicked and repaired in substantial fashion, because whatever the strategy has been, it’s been an unmitigated disaster.

Agreed but that was true last time we went down. Thankfully we will be one of the top teams financially and able to blow almost every other team out of the water for players. I expect us to buy or loan at least three or four who will be one of the best players in their positions for the Championship which is what we did last time

4. Any team with serious intention of promotion and making even a moderate success of a season in the Prem, needs to preferably start building a Prem team in the Championship as that allows bonding and on-field empathy early on and so morale will be much better. The majority of the players in the squad are just not fit for purpose if we want a SUSTAINABLE return to the Prem - it’s as simple as that.  
 

Agreed and we can start doing that to some degree but it's a balance isn't it and as you say we may be able to have a go at starting to create a team but it's not practical to expect us to bring in proven prem quality in the league below. Even when we got promoted under Adkins we binned off quite a few when we got promoted and those times were completely different. You need Championship squad players whatever we do. 

Outside of Rambo, THB, Dibling, Fernandes and perhaps Archer and Welington (assuming KWP is going anyway), I’d love to see your list of players that you think will be good enough for next season. To my mind, if you start arguing for Downes or Bednarek for example, there’s no reason for not including 7-8 others of equal (poor) standard and then all of a sudden you’ve got the entirety of a shit team staying for another round of unremarkable displays and loser mentality. I’m sick of it and while I doubt it will happen, I want to see a cull of epic proportions so I get to see my team consist of players who are capable and give a shit.

What are you defining as good enough? A squad consists of a large group of players with differing abilities, some will play next year and clearly not be up to the Prem but they will still be important players for promotion. Every single team who gets promoted has players like that and I agree that we don't want too many because it will make the rebuild following promotion too large for one season. The likes of Armstrong and Charles are now proven Championship performers and it would be foolish to bin them off just because they can't make it in the prem. In the case of Armstrong I'd keep him to get goals for us next year and then I'd sell him. In answer to some of your questions with some players: 

Ramsdale- Gone

Bazunu- I'd like to sell in an ideal world but only if we can bring in a better keeper which isn't a guarantee so will likely stay.

KWP- Gone

Bree- I'd keep for the squad and then get rid if we get promoted. I don't think he has a loser mentality nor has he really let us down even though he isn't particularly spectacular. 

Sugawara- Sounds like he's off anyway and would be no great loss

THB- Will be sold and we will get substantially more for him than you were suggesting

Wood- I'd keep if possible he's been better than I thought he would be 

Edward- Seems like an exciting signing and potential there to progress and maybe be ready for the prem. 

Bednarek- I'd sell. 

Wellington- Looks good to me

Manning- Get rid

Stephens- Get rid

Downes- Is obviously going in the summer. Proven quality in the Championship but rubbish in the prem. 

Charles- Looks decent in the Championship now playing a different way and with clear potential in the prem. I'd keep hold of him if we can. 

Smallbone- I'd sell if we can but otherwise I'd have him as a squad player in the Championship. 

Aribo- Sounds like he is leaving. I'd consider trying to keep him if we can but if not it's not the end of the world 

Fernandes- Really hope we can keep him for a season. Think he would be great and potential to be a success in the prem in the right setup. 

Armstrong- I'd keep him in the championship as a proven performer. Will get us goals and I doubt we would be able to get someone better in our position. Sell after promotion. 

Lallana- No point keeping. Will probably retire. 

Dibling- Gone

Edozie- I'd like to take a look at him to see how he has developed. He's still young and there's potential there for improvement. 

Frazer- Get rid

Sulemana- Undecided but on balance I'd probably sell if we can get something half decent for him. In the right setup I still think he could be a success in the Championship. 

Onuachu- Sell and replace

Archer- Should keep him in my opinion. I still think he could be a prem squad player in a half decent team. 

 

So based on that it doesn't sound like we would disagree much. I am proposing there to get rid or sell fourteen players. That is a huge change to the team with lots of new players needed. I would expect as a minimum new signings for: 

GK 

RB 

CB

DM x2 

Winger 

Striker x 2

with a potential new strongest 11 of: 

GK

RB Edward CB Wellington 

Charles CM 

Fernandes 

Armstrong Winger 

Archer/New Striker

Obviously that team would then be supplemented by squad players such as potentially Smallbone, Wood, Bree, Edozie looking to replace them. I'm not sure what about that you would consider unrealistic?  

[hypochondriac]

Just now, notnowcato said:

As much as I agree with a lot of what you've written, point 4 I don't believe is achievable.  The gap between PL and Championship is far too big to bridge, they're are effectively two very different competitions and you need two very different squads.   Forest nailed it when they came up, many if not most pundits mocked the Forest approach said there was no chance 20 new players would gel to compete in the PL, now given what we've seen with the past 2 sets of teams promoted it seems the most likely way to succeed. 

Agreed. We would maybe have at best three or four players who could play in the prem from a promotion team. The rest would all need replacing once promoted. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

What are you defining as good enough? A squad consists of a large group of players with differing abilities, some will play next year and clearly not be up to the Prem but they will still be important players for promotion. Every single team who gets promoted has players like that and I agree that we don't want too many because it will make the rebuild following promotion too large for one season. The likes of Armstrong and Charles are now proven Championship performers and it would be foolish to bin them off just because they can't make it in the prem. In the case of Armstrong I'd keep him to get goals for us next year and then I'd sell him. In answer to some of your questions with some players: 

Ramsdale- Gone

Bazunu- I'd like to sell in an ideal world but only if we can bring in a better keeper which isn't a guarantee so will likely stay.

KWP- Gone

Bree- I'd keep for the squad and then get rid if we get promoted. I don't think he has a loser mentality nor has he really let us down even though he isn't particularly spectacular. 

Sugawara- Sounds like he's off anyway and would be no great loss

THB- Will be sold and we will get substantially more for him than you were suggesting

Wood- I'd keep if possible he's been better than I thought he would be 

Edward- Seems like an exciting signing and potential there to progress and maybe be ready for the prem. 

Bednarek- I'd sell. 

Wellington- Looks good to me

Manning- Get rid

Stephens- Get rid

Downes- Is obviously going in the summer. Proven quality in the Championship but rubbish in the prem. 

Charles- Looks decent in the Championship now playing a different way and with clear potential in the prem. I'd keep hold of him if we can. 

Smallbone- I'd sell if we can but otherwise I'd have him as a squad player in the Championship. 

Aribo- Sounds like he is leaving. I'd consider trying to keep him if we can but if not it's not the end of the world 

Fernandes- Really hope we can keep him for a season. Think he would be great and potential to be a success in the prem in the right setup. 

Armstrong- I'd keep him in the championship as a proven performer. Will get us goals and I doubt we would be able to get someone better in our position. Sell after promotion. 

Lallana- No point keeping. Will probably retire. 

Dibling- Gone

Edozie- I'd like to take a look at him to see how he has developed. He's still young and there's potential there for improvement. 

Frazer- Get rid

Sulemana- Undecided but on balance I'd probably sell if we can get something half decent for him. In the right setup I still think he could be a success in the Championship. 

Onuachu- Sell and replace

Archer- Should keep him in my opinion. I still think he could be a prem squad player in a half decent team. 

 

So based on that it doesn't sound like we would disagree much. I am proposing there to get rid or sell fourteen players. That is a huge change to the team with lots of new players needed. I would expect as a minimum new signings for: 

GK 

RB 

CB

DM x2 

Winger 

Striker x 2

with a potential new strongest 11 of: 

GK

RB Edward CB Wellington 

Charles CM 

Fernandes 

Armstrong Winger 

Archer/New Striker

Obviously that team would then be supplemented by squad players such as potentially Smallbone, Wood, Bree, Edozie looking to replace them. I'm not sure what about that you would consider unrealistic?  

I largely agree with all of that, although I don’t think Bazunu is good enough - he was the worst keeper in the Championship, he’s been injured since and from what I’ve seen he’s not improved an iota. Get rid.

I’m obviously not advocating replacing the entire squad with Prem level players in the summer, however we are so sub-standard now that it seems to me to be imperative that the overall squad is improved beyond the best players we have now - i.e. our best are not much better than top Championship or perhaps lower Prem players anyway. We should be attempting to keep Ramsdale, Welington, Fernandes, THB, Dibling and Archer, then buying or loaning better quality from there. Why would anyone want less for our club?

Edited Friday at 15:51 by Saint Fan CaM

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I largely agree with all of that, although I don’t think Bazunu is good enough - he was the worst keeper in the Championship, he’s been injured since and from what I’ve seen he’s not improved an iota. Get rid.

Why are you ignoring the man of the match performance vs a Champions League last 16 team?

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I largely agree with all of that, although I don’t think Bazunu is good enough - he was the worst keeper in the Championship, he’s been injured since and from what I’ve seen he’s not improved an iota. Get rid.

I’m obviously not advocating replacing the entire squad with Prem level players in the summer, however we are so sub-standard now that it seems to me to be imperative that the overall squad is improved beyond the best players we have now - i.e. our best are not much better than top Championship or perhaps lower Prem players anyway. We should be attempting to keep Ramsdale, Welington, Fernandes, THB, Dibling and Archer, then buying or loaning better quality from there. Why would anyone want less for our club?

It's not about wanting less, it's about being realistic. We won't be keeping hold of most of those players sadly. It's judt modern football. 

[Football Special]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why are you ignoring the man of the match performance vs a Champions League last 16 team?

Bazunu is not the answer unless the question is who's the worst keeper in the championship 

[Charlie Wayman]

2 hours ago, Football Special said:

Bazunu is not the answer unless the question is who's the worst keeper in the championship 

Never scrump apples when you are a young kid, people never forget and label you all your life as that kid that used to scrump apples.

[Whitey Grandad]

13 hours ago, Football Special said:

Bazunu is not the answer unless the question is who's the worst keeper in the championship 

Says who?

[CB Fry]

10 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Never scrump apples when you are a young kid, people never forget and label you all your life as that kid that used to scrump apples.

I was given similar advice by someone everyone in our village called Martin the Paedophile.

[Matthew Le God]

16 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why are you ignoring the man of the match performance vs a Champions League last 16 team?

 

15 hours ago, Football Special said:

Bazunu is not the answer unless the question is who's the worst keeper in the championship 

He is an answer to the question... Who was recently man of the match vs a Champions League last 16 team?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Says who?

Based on the [this word has been removed by SaintsWeb on behalf of Whitey]

Hmm, that's odd. You know, the things pundits drone on about to pretend they know more than they do. The things that clubs have whole departments around, to analyse. Not that it helps a lot of them. You know  [this word has been removed by SaintsWeb on behalf of Whitey]

🙂

[benjii]

27 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

He is an answer to the question... Who was recently man of the match vs a Champions League last 16 team?

Who invented the skip?

[Matthew Le God]

5 minutes ago, benjii said:

Who invented the skip?

Edwin Walker in 1922 

[Saint Fan CaM]

17 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why are you ignoring the man of the match performance vs a Champions League last 16 team?

Every broken clock is right once a day. 🤭👊🏼

[Saint Fan CaM]

16 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

It's not about wanting less, it's about being realistic. We won't be keeping hold of most of those players sadly. It's judt modern football. 

Oh I’m sure we won’t because SR are not good enough to make that happen. Ask yourself this - if the player is contracted for more than a year and SR decided to offer enough money to keep the player in place, why would that not be a good thing? Other teams have been relegated and kept some of their best players in the past. It probably will not happen because we’re talking about SR, but it’s not impossible if the will/vision is there.

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

He is an answer to the question... Who was recently man of the match vs a Champions League last 16 team?

He's thrown a kettle over a pub. What have you ever done?

[Farmer Saint]

2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

I was given similar advice by someone everyone in our village called Martin the Paedophile.

Unfortunate surname.

[Matthew Le God]

8 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

He's thrown a kettle over a pub. What have you ever done?

Annoyed you for the last 20 years 😉

[gio1saints]

16 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

It's not about wanting less, it's about being realistic. We won't be keeping hold of most of those players sadly. It's judt modern football. 

And this is one of the most obvious negatives from the current durection of traffic for football.

The players the manager the style of play even the colour of our shirt all bring uniqueness to our support. Once it’s reduced to an algorithm which says new squad for the EPL new Manager, new style of play and new shirt required even obligatory each season - there is less and less of a chance of a lasting relationship being developed or even created in the first place between supporters and team. 

it’s simply just another transaction in a transactional impersonal world. Pretty soon it will be just generic red team versus generic blue team in a virtual stadium but with a worldwide paying audience. Or a stadium filled with the corporate sponsors on freebies more likely. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

13 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

it’s simply just another transaction in a transactional impersonal world. Pretty soon it will be just generic red team versus generic blue team in a virtual stadium but with a worldwide paying audience. Or a stadium filled with the corporate sponsors on freebies more likely. 

You kept your work on the Super League proposal quiet, Gio. 🙂

You have given them their dream future there.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

And this is one of the most obvious negatives from the current durection of traffic for football.

The players the manager the style of play even the colour of our shirt all bring uniqueness to our support. Once it’s reduced to an algorithm which says new squad for the EPL new Manager, new style of play and new shirt required even obligatory each season - there is less and less of a chance of a lasting relationship being developed or even created in the first place between supporters and team. 

it’s simply just another transaction in a transactional impersonal world. Pretty soon it will be just generic red team versus generic blue team in a virtual stadium but with a worldwide paying audience. Or a stadium filled with the corporate sponsors on freebies more likely. 

We can develop more of that stuff once we have an established prem team again if we ever get there. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

We can develop more of that stuff once we have an established prem team again if we ever get there. 

I’ve just had a bit of watershed moment reading that. I’ve just realised or perhaps re-realised that actually I don’t give a shit about what league we’re in.  I don’t care about relegation or indeed promotion.

I just want to watch a game of football where my side has a reasonable chance of gaining a point or three because all the players look like they give a shit and perform at a level befitting the league they are playing in (or better).

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I’ve just had a bit of watershed moment reading that. I’ve just realised or perhaps re-realised that actually I don’t give a shit about what league we’re in.  I don’t care about relegation or indeed promotion.

I just want to watch a game of football where my side has a reasonable chance of gaining a point or three because all the players look like they give a shit and perform at a level befitting the league they are playing in (or better).

I agree 100%. Thays why last season was our best season since we qualified for Europe. 

[miserableoldgit]

3 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Every broken clock is right once a day. 🤭👊🏼

Twice a day......

[Saint Fan CaM]

Just now, miserableoldgit said:

Twice a day......

I was going to say that, but MLG would probably claim a day constituted 12 hours rather than 24 and didn’t want to give him the pleasure. 😊😉

[miserableoldgit]

8 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I was going to say that, but MLG would probably claim a day constituted 12 hours rather than 24 and didn’t want to give him the pleasure. 😊😉

TBF if a digital clock was stuck then it would be once a day but analogue would be twice a day. Not even MLG can argue with that......can he?

[Saint Fan CaM]

2 minutes ago, miserableoldgit said:

TBF if a digital clock was stuck then it would be once a day but analogue would be twice a day. Not even MLG can argue with that......can he?

I think we both know the answer to that! 😉😂

[pimpin4rizeal]

Been saying for a while the 4231 is the way to go for us. It gives more cover to the defence stops us getting overrun in midfield and allows us to field the likes of sulemana fernandes and dibling in their best positions and to get more space for them with fast counter attacks ..

It’s a step in the right direction for juric this week .Could  probably be tweaked better by having Aribo and les instead of smallbone even though he scored.,  and Paul up top can hold up balls he shouldn’t and be a asset in this style 

he said he would adapt this week and he did so thumbs up for that .. now stick to it when we play lesser teams then Liverpool and results will come 

[Wade Garrett]

52 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

Been saying for a while the 4231 is the way to go for us. It gives more cover to the defence stops us getting overrun in midfield and allows us to field the likes of sulemana fernandes and dibling in their best positions and to get more space for them with fast counter attacks ..

It’s a step in the right direction for juric this week .Could  probably be tweaked better by having Aribo and les instead of smallbone even though he scored.,  and Paul up top can hold up balls he shouldn’t and be a asset in this style 

he said he would adapt this week and he did so thumbs up for that .. now stick to it when we play lesser teams then Liverpool and results will come 

He should have seen that a while ago.  He gets no credit from me for that.

Edited 4 hours ago by Wade Garrett

[Fabrice29]

53 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

Been saying for a while the 4231 is the way to go for us. It gives more cover to the defence stops us getting overrun in midfield and allows us to field the likes of sulemana fernandes and dibling in their best positions and to get more space for them with fast counter attacks ..

It’s a step in the right direction for juric this week .Could  probably be tweaked better by having Aribo and les instead of smallbone even though he scored.,  and Paul up top can hold up balls he shouldn’t and be a asset in this style 

he said he would adapt this week and he did so thumbs up for that .. now stick to it when we play lesser teams then Liverpool and results will come 

Looking forward to us dropping a performance that has us facing 28 shots vs our 6 and only 28% possession next week against a lesser team and you giving it a thumbs up.