Lack of fitness

[Dr Who?]

  On 27/12/2024 at 15:56, Hamwic said:

There was a story around Strachans pre-season that the players had T shirts printed saying that they survived it. By his own admission, he was adamant that players mental fitness depended on their physical fitness. 

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This is true. If you are fit you can not only use your body to its full ability for longer, but also make better decisions mentally. You make more mistakes when physically or/and mentally tired. 😴 

Edited 27 December, 2024 by Dr Who?

[sadoldgit]

  On 27/12/2024 at 16:20, Badger said:

Agree about WGS, he'd have sorted the 'slackers' out. 

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So he wouldn’t have any time for MLT then? I remember the days when “fit players” we seen as being more valuable than skillful players. Players like Tony Currie, Frank Worthington and MLT would be left out for players who put in a “shift”. I also remember when Joe Mercer was brought in as an interim England manager and brought in what we considered “flare” players. What a breath of fresh air that was. Fitness will get you so far. Quality will get you further. 

[rooney]

  On 27/12/2024 at 22:49, sadoldgit said:

So he wouldn’t have any time for MLT then? I remember the days when “fit players” we seen as being more valuable than skillful players. Players like Tony Currie, Frank Worthington and MLT would be left out for players who put in a “shift”. I also remember when Joe Mercer was brought in as an interim England manager and brought in what we considered “flare” players. What a breath of fresh air that was. Fitness will get you so far. Quality will get you further. 

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and they used to have a fag at half time then also,

[notnowcato]

Are there any stats to back up this lack of fitness?

We would often blow up under Ralph after 60-70 minutes of high intensity pressing, I don’t remember fitness being called an issue then. 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 28/12/2024 at 07:55, notnowcato said:

Are there any stats to back up this lack of fitness?

We would often blow up under Ralph after 60-70 minutes of high intensity pressing, I don’t remember fitness being called an issue then. 

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Maybe start here?

Plenty of 'stats' on there to get your teeth into.

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:01, Weston Super Saint said:

Maybe start here?

Plenty of 'stats' on there to get your teeth into.

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Hilarious, as ever. 

If you don’t know the answer, rather than a shit attempt at humour or baiting, maybe just ignore the post. Assuming your adult enough to do so. 

[egg]

  On 28/12/2024 at 07:55, notnowcato said:

Are there any stats to back up this lack of fitness?

We would often blow up under Ralph after 60-70 minutes of high intensity pressing, I don’t remember fitness being called an issue then. 

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Sod stats. Sod Ralph's teams. Watch us.

Do you honestly think that player fitness is not an issue? 

Regardless, allowing players time off when they should be preparing and/or running through what went wrong and working on changes shows an appalling lack of professionalism. 

 

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:23, egg said:

Sod stats. Sod Ralph's teams. Watch us.

Do you honestly think that player fitness is not an issue? 

Regardless, allowing players time off when they should be preparing and/or running through what went wrong and working on changes shows an appalling lack of professionalism. 

 

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Ralph’s teams couldn’t be more relevant to us and the style that Juric wants. 
Fitness shows itself perfectly in statistics, like them or not, they’re ideal to show if we’re as fit as other teams. 
I’m not trying to be a dick, it’s a genuine question. 

Edited 28 December, 2024 by notnowcato

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:22, notnowcato said:

Hilarious, as ever. 

If you don’t know the answer, rather than a shit attempt at humour or baiting, maybe just ignore the post. Assuming your adult enough to do so. 

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Lol.

Look at the team, look at our position, look at our performances.

But, no, your(sic) right, we've got the fittest team on the planet, never have we fallen apart in the last 30 mintues of a game, not once.  We've got everything under control and no fitness issues I tells ya.

'Stats' speak for themselves?  Scored 2 and conceded 14 in the last 30 minutes of games speaks for itself doesn't it?

 

Edited 28 December, 2024 by Weston Super Saint

[egg]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:28, notnowcato said:

Ralph’s teams couldn’t be more relevant to us and the style that Juric wants. 
Fitness shows itself perfectly in statistics, like them or not, they’re ideal to show if we’re as fit as other teams. 
I’m not trying to be a dick, it’s a genuine question. 

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I'll ask again - Do you honestly think that our player fitness is not an issue? 

If you don't think there's an issue, presumably you can point to some stats to support your point. 

[John B]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:23, egg said:

Sod stats. Sod Ralph's teams. Watch us.

Do you honestly think that player fitness is not an issue? 

Regardless, allowing players time off when they should be preparing and/or running through what went wrong and working on changes shows an appalling lack of professionalism. 

 

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I thought we had fitness coaches who monitored the condition of players 

[Roo1976]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:22, notnowcato said:

Hilarious, as ever. 

If you don’t know the answer, rather than a shit attempt at humour or baiting, maybe just ignore the post. Assuming your adult enough to do so. 

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but why even rise to reply to the humor that was offered....?

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:33, egg said:

I'll ask again - Do you honestly think that our player fitness is not an issue? 

If you don't think there's an issue, presumably you can point to some stats to support your point. 

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It’s obvious I’m looking for evidence relevant to fitness, I’ve no opinion as I don’t have the facts.

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 09:46, Roo1976 said:

but why even rise to reply to the humor that was offered....?

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My choice

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:29, Weston Super Saint said:

Lol.

Look at the team, look at our position, look at our performances.

But, no, your(sic) right, we've got the fittest team on the planet, never have we fallen apart in the last 30 mintues of a game, not once.  We've got everything under control and no fitness issues I tells ya.

'Stats' speak for themselves?  Scored 2 and conceded 14 in the last 30 minutes of games speaks for itself doesn't it?

 

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Thanks for all your effort 🙄

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 27/12/2024 at 15:07, Lighthouse said:

Incidentally, is there a statute of limitations on Russell bloody Martin? I’m absolutely bored senseless of every single discussion point being brought back to him.

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Understandable that you’d want to move on, seeing as you were constantly defending him.Every single discussion does come back to him, because  this season is entirely down to him, players fitness, league position and inevitable relegation. The worst top flight manager we’ve had in anyone’s lifetime, you can’t just erase and move on. 

[coalman]

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:28, notnowcato said:

Ralph’s teams couldn’t be more relevant to us and the style that Juric wants. 
Fitness shows itself perfectly in statistics, like them or not, they’re ideal to show if we’re as fit as other teams. 
I’m not trying to be a dick, it’s a genuine question. 

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Which statistics does fitness show itself perfectly in?

Edited 28 December, 2024 by coalman

[Badger]

  On 27/12/2024 at 22:49, sadoldgit said:

So he wouldn’t have any time for MLT then? I remember the days when “fit players” we seen as being more valuable than skillful players. Players like Tony Currie, Frank Worthington and MLT would be left out for players who put in a “shift”. I also remember when Joe Mercer was brought in as an interim England manager and brought in what we considered “flare” players. What a breath of fresh air that was. Fitness will get you so far. Quality will get you further. 

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Perhaps a case for Lawrie’s “road sweepers and violinists”.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 28/12/2024 at 12:50, coalman said:

Which statistics does fitness show itself perfectly in?

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I think the answer is just 'statistics'...

  On 28/12/2024 at 08:28, notnowcato said:

Fitness shows itself perfectly in statistics, like them or not, they’re ideal to show if we’re as fit as other teams. 
 

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No point trying to argue against that completely logical stance.

I went to the gym this morning and literally everyone there was comparing their fitness statistics on their fitness statistics app. Incredible scenes.

[Turkish]

  On 27/12/2024 at 22:49, sadoldgit said:

So he wouldn’t have any time for MLT then? I remember the days when “fit players” we seen as being more valuable than skillful players. Players like Tony Currie, Frank Worthington and MLT would be left out for players who put in a “shift”. I also remember when Joe Mercer was brought in as an interim England manager and brought in what we considered “flare” players. What a breath of fresh air that was. Fitness will get you so far. Quality will get you further. 

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Fitness and quality gets you even further. It’s possible to have both 

Edited 28 December, 2024 by Turkish

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 28/12/2024 at 13:12, Turkish said:

Fitness and quality gets you even further. It’s possible to have both 

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It’s not only possible, it’s a requirement in the modern game.

All this pony about MLT or some other bloke who smoked a pack of rothmans & sank 3 glasses of brandy pre match and went out to score a hatrick is jumpers for goalposts stuff. About as relevant to the modern game as the keeper picking up pass backs and managers sat in the stand. Matt wouldn’t have made an impact in the modern game, unless he had modern levels of fitness and conditioning. In the old days you could have one or the other, now you need both. For a variety of reasons, pitches, rule changes, etc players have never been so skilful, and they’ve never been so fit (apart from the purveyors of Lego ball) 

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 12:50, coalman said:

Which statistics does fitness show itself perfectly in?

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Sprints made, distance covered per player, team; that sort of thing

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 11:17, Lord Duckhunter said:

Understandable that you’d want to move on, seeing as you were constantly defending him.Every single discussion does come back to him, because  this season is entirely down to him, players fitness, league position and inevitable relegation. The worst top flight manager we’ve had in anyone’s lifetime, you can’t just erase and move on. 

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Promotion 😉

[Turkish]

  On 28/12/2024 at 13:31, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s not only possible, it’s a requirement in the modern game.

All this pony about MLT or some other bloke who smoked a pack of rothmans & sank 3 glasses of brandy pre match and went out to score a hatrick is jumpers for goalposts stuff. About as relevant to the modern game as the keeper picking up pass backs and managers sat in the stand. Matt wouldn’t have made an impact in the modern game, unless he had modern levels of fitness and conditioning. In the old days you could have one or the other, now you need both. For a variety of reasons, pitches, rule changes, etc players have never been so skilful, and they’ve never been so fit (apart from the purveyors of Lego ball) 

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Yep, modern players are athletes. Back in the era some are harking back too most players weren’t. They’d be on the piss most weekends and on their days off, eat like shit and many would could back to preseason a stone or two over weight. Now it’s a requirement to be fit all year round. I know of a current championship player who has run a sub 3 hour marathon, can bench 120kg and deadlift 200kg and would also be a competitive sprinter in 100 metres, not Olympic level but a decent national level. to have that level of all round fitness takes years to develop. Some shite written on here by people who probably can’t even run 5k or never touched a barbell is highly amusing. 
 

Even at non league level fitness standards are really high, my son is coached on a Wednesday by two lads in their early 20s playing northern premier league level so one below conference north. Brilliant, lovely young lads, neither of them drink, they do their club training and matches plus their own individual strength and conditioning stuff 3 times a week. even during their summer holidays they were going out for runs on the beach every morning with their mates one who plays for Burnley the other for Barrow. they say if they didn’t do it and let their standards drop they wouldn’t play even at the level they’re at. Simple as that. 

Edited 28 December, 2024 by Turkish

[Toussaint]

  On 28/12/2024 at 13:50, notnowcato said:

Sprints made, distance covered per player, team; that sort of thing

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The stats will not reflect the sprints not made that could have prevented an attacking move because the players have nothing to draw on in that particular moment. 

[saintant]

  On 28/12/2024 at 09:48, notnowcato said:

It’s obvious I’m looking for evidence relevant to fitness, I’ve no opinion as I don’t have the facts.

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When a manager of a Premier league side decides it's a good idea to give his players Sunday and Monday off after a Saturday game (particularly during a long run of very poor results) and also gives them Xmas day off when they have a Boxing Day fixture it should give you a fairly clear indication that said manager is either lazy and fancies days off himself or just doesn't understand how elite footballers achieve and maintain fitness levels. Take your pick, it's one or the other unless you are going to suggest that RM had it right and 99.99% of other managers had it wrong.

[EssEffCee]

Surely anybody with eyes and has even a vague understanding of the game has been able to see we've looked unfit most of the season? It was obvious from as early as Ipswich.

[Winnersaint]

  On 28/12/2024 at 16:09, saintant said:

When a manager of a Premier league side decides it's a good idea to give his players Sunday and Monday off after a Saturday game (particularly during a long run of very poor results) and also gives them Xmas day off when they have a Boxing Day fixture it should give you a fairly clear indication that said manager is either lazy and fancies days off himself or just doesn't understand how elite footballers achieve and maintain fitness levels. Take your pick, it's one or the other unless you are going to suggest that RM had it right and 99.99% of other managers had it wrong.

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Difference was the sheer number of games last season. So recovery days were almost an imperative. Between the 29th March and 4th May we played 10 times, not a million miles off a quarter of a season. 8 games between 2nd December and New Years Day. February was another crazy month. So perhaps rather than wilful neglect it demonstrates another example of RMs failure to adapt to the higher level demanded by the EPL.

[trousers]

  On 28/12/2024 at 17:10, EssEffCee said:

Surely anybody with eyes and has even a vague understanding of the game has been able to see we've looked unfit most of the season?

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Quite.... It's almost as if some people love to play the devil's advocate on internet football forums....

[coalman]

  On 28/12/2024 at 13:50, notnowcato said:

Sprints made, distance covered per player, team; that sort of thing

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https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c4grpyrk6r7o

As of early October we had 2nd fewest sprints made.

Edited 28 December, 2024 by coalman

[tdmickey3]

  On 28/12/2024 at 07:55, notnowcato said:

Are there any stats to back up this lack of fitness?

We would often blow up under Ralph after 60-70 minutes of high intensity pressing, I don’t remember fitness being called an issue then. 

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We used to win games back then, not just the pathetic one your mate achieved 

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 18:36, coalman said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c4grpyrk6r7o

As of early October we had 2nd fewest sprints made.

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Thanks for sharing that. There doesn’t seem to be much correlation between sprints made and points garnered. Feels like this only really scratches the surface. Our distance covered is middle third so we were clearly covering some ground during our games, not the most but not the worst either. 

[Oldandtired]

  On 28/12/2024 at 13:51, notnowcato said:

Promotion 😉

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Lottery win, achieved despite him not because of him after everybody else realised how inflexible and easy to play against his system was.

Edited 28 December, 2024 by Oldandtired

[Lighthouse]

  On 28/12/2024 at 16:09, saintant said:

When a manager of a Premier league side decides it's a good idea to give his players Sunday and Monday off after a Saturday game (particularly during a long run of very poor results) and also gives them Xmas day off when they have a Boxing Day fixture it should give you a fairly clear indication that said manager is either lazy and fancies days off himself or just doesn't understand how elite footballers achieve and maintain fitness levels. Take your pick, it's one or the other unless you are going to suggest that RM had it right and 99.99% of other managers had it wrong.

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Has that actually been confirmed by someone at the club? I’m not saying it isn’t true, I’ve just no idea where it’s come from.

Personally I’d use the fact that we’ve looked better (I’m not saying good) in a few second halves (Brighton, Bournemouth, Chelsea, Liverpool in the cup) to suggest we haven’t had a fitness issue this season.

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 21:17, Oldandtired said:

Lottery win, achieved despite him not because of him after everybody else realised how inflexible and easy to play against his system was.

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Sad that people think this but each to their own. 

[trousers]

  On 28/12/2024 at 21:37, notnowcato said:

each to their own. 

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People tolerating and respecting opinions that differ to their own? Nah, can't ever see that catching on...

Edited 28 December, 2024 by trousers

[danjosaint]

  On 28/12/2024 at 21:37, notnowcato said:

Sad that people think this but each to their own. 

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Because it's true, just because a few of you are blinded by the ego , facts don't lie 

[notnowcato]

  On 28/12/2024 at 21:47, danjosaint said:

Because it's true, just because a few of you are blinded by the ego , facts don't lie 

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Facts 😂

[Osvaldorama]

  On 28/12/2024 at 17:10, EssEffCee said:

Surely anybody with eyes and has even a vague understanding of the game has been able to see we've looked unfit most of the season? It was obvious from as early as Ipswich.

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True, but some people even now, can’t valid handle criticism of Russell Martin for some reason. 

[aintforever]

  On 28/12/2024 at 21:17, Oldandtired said:

Lottery win, achieved despite him not because of him after everybody else realised how inflexible and easy to play against his system was.

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What a load of bollocks. He was shite in the Premier League but you have to give him credit for getting us promoted at the first attempt.

Do you really believe that next season we can hire any old shit manager and easily get promotion? I remember last time we went down this place was full of people saying how hard it is to bounce straight back.

[Turkish]

  On 28/12/2024 at 22:52, aintforever said:

What a load of bollocks. He was shite in the Premier League but you have to give him credit for getting us promoted at the first attempt.

Do you really believe that next season we can hire any old shit manager and easily get promotion? I remember last time we went down this place was full of people saying how hard it is to bounce straight back.

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Id say an average championship manager could have got that squad promoted. Martin’s records proves that assessment to be correct

[aintforever]

  On 28/12/2024 at 23:29, Turkish said:

Id say an average championship manager could have got that squad promoted. Martin’s records proves that assessment to be correct

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He has obviously got his limits as a manager but I guess we will see how easy it is to bounce straight back up next year. Should be a piece of piss now we have a better manager and probably a more settled squad of Champioship players.

Edited 29 December, 2024 by aintforever

[Oldandtired]

  On 28/12/2024 at 22:08, notnowcato said:

Facts 😂

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I note your disdain for facts, although it is immediately obvious in your posts.

[Turkish]

  On 29/12/2024 at 10:32, aintforever said:

He has obviously got his limits as a manager but I guess we will see how easy it is to bounce straight back up next year. Should be a piece of piss now we have a better manager and probably a more settled squad of Champioship players.

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No one ever said it was easy to bounce back up, it isn’t. However Martin had one of the three best squads and biggest budget in the division so promotion isn’t the work of a genius like some on here seem to think. 

[ErwinK1961]

  On 29/12/2024 at 11:55, Turkish said:

No one ever said it was easy to bounce back up, it isn’t. However Martin had one of the three best squads and biggest budget in the division so promotion isn’t the work of a genius like some on here seem to think. 

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It’s also not ‘luck’ and a ‘lottery’ win that others state either.

We got what we deserved, promotion. He was in charge of that, so should get credit for getting us up.

Clearly he was woefully out of his depth at this level and righty sacked.

Some people (not you by the way) seem to be all or nothing either way. It’s ok to say he did well last year and absolutely garbage this.

[Wade Garrett]

  On 28/12/2024 at 23:29, Turkish said:

Id say an average championship manager could have got that squad promoted. Martin’s records proves that assessment to be correct

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Especially when you consider how much more Rusk got out of the side than The Idiot.

[aintforever]

  On 29/12/2024 at 13:18, ErwinK1961 said:

It’s ok to say he did well last year and absolutely garbage this.

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Exactly. 

[egg]

  On 28/12/2024 at 22:52, aintforever said:

What a load of bollocks. He was shite in the Premier League but you have to give him credit for getting us promoted at the first attempt.

Do you really believe that next season we can hire any old shit manager and easily get promotion? I remember last time we went down this place was full of people saying how hard it is to bounce straight back.

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I'm firmly in the camp that an average championship level manager would have got us promoted last season, and that someone decent would have got us top 2. Next season's squad won't be as good as last seasons imo, and RM wouldn't have been good enough to get that team promoted. 

[Lighthouse]

  On 29/12/2024 at 13:32, egg said:

I'm firmly in the camp that an average championship level manager would have got us promoted last season, and that someone decent would have got us top 2. Next season's squad won't be as good as last seasons imo, and RM wouldn't have been good enough to get that team promoted. 

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Why not? What was so incredible about Saints squad last season, which won’t be applicable next season and wasn’t under Burley or Redknapp? We’ll likely have Archer and BBD instead of Adams, they should do a decent job. THB and KWP will likely leave but we’ve still gained Wood, Edwards and Taylor and that’s before we’ve signed any more players. I’d say with a half decent fullback and central midfielder, next season’s squad will be better than last, so promotion should be pretty much guaranteed.

[egg]

  On 29/12/2024 at 13:49, Lighthouse said:

Why not? What was so incredible about Saints squad last season, which won’t be applicable next season and wasn’t under Burley or Redknapp? We’ll likely have Archer and BBD instead of Adams, they should do a decent job. THB and KWP will likely leave but we’ve still gained Wood, Edwards and Taylor and that’s before we’ve signed any more players. I’d say with a half decent fullback and central midfielder, next season’s squad will be better than last, so promotion should be pretty much guaranteed.

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For starters because we'll probably sell Bednarek and THB, and lose KWP, all of whom we had last season. Wood, Edwards and Taylor are a downgrade on those 3.

Next seasons squad will be worse than last seasons.