Incessant coaching from the touchline

[Francis1947]

I would like to read other peoples thoughts on the almost second by second coaching that Martin does from the touchline.

It's a thing I think that came into the game about 20 years ago and to be fair to Martin he isn't the worst in the Prem. I think he's mid table which is where we would all like the club to be at the moment.

When I attend St.Marys I often take a look at his antics on the touchline. On the telly you are not shown it as much but in a match he is almost constantly shouting, cajoling and instructing the players. Even down to where they stand at a throw in or a corner. It is almost non stop. What does this achieve and is it something to encourage ? Any thoughts ?

You would like to think that the detail of how an opposing team is going to play would have been done at Stapleford in mid-week and you wouldnt require this almost forensic wave of second by second instructions . I personally think that it's part of the " profile " of a manager now. They are the stars ! They like to be seen and heard and to know that they have complete power over the team and the players. It's the modern way !   

Now in other posts I have said that my other winter sport  Iove is Rugby Union. It is a sport that I have liked and admired for more than 60 years. I have been a Northampton Rugby Club member for more than 20 years and the contrast in the match day role and behaviour of the Manager and the coaching staff coudnt be more different.

I attend maybe 4-6 home matches at Franklin Gardens a season. My missus and I sit in the same seats at every match. They are in the back row of the stand where Phil Dowson, the Director of Rugby, Lee Radford the Defence Coach and Sam Vesty the Attack coach sit. I'm fortunate enough to be 8 seats away. And I often glance at them when a match is underway. Each has a computer screen in front of them and you can see they quietly discuss how the match is going between. They occasionally contact some of the more junior coaching staff who are on the Northampton Bench. However this is rarely to discuss or change strategy with the match underway and mostly to do with substitutions whne there's an injury.

There are no minute instructions, no shouting, no caterwalling and waving of arms. The work has been done on the training pitch the week before, strategy and tactics are agreed and the coaching team have faith in theie players to carry them out to the best of their ability. Of course it doesnt always work but the difference in the two sports is staggering. And this bahaviour is widespread throught the game, both in club and international rugby. Not too many prima donnas in Rugby.

And this is a game that has hundreds of more nuances and techicalities than football and also a game I might say that is refereed to a much higher standard to the dross we ofen see at St.Marys.

One funny story to end with. A few weeks ago I attended match at Northampton and  we were attacking 5 yards from the try line. I think it was a back rower, Tom Pearson who made a mistake and the chance to score was lost. There's a big screen at Franklin Gardens and just as the ball was dropped the camera switched to the coaching team. And Sam Vesty was effin and jeffin with the best of them. The camera switched away but Vesty knew he had been caught out and the whole ground was laughing. the Camera switched back to Vesty who stood up and turned to each quarter of the ground and apologised.It was a good moment. So there is passion and intensity in the sport but its not on show so deliberately as football now

So, I would just like to know other Saints fans opinions on Martins behaviour o the touchline.....and does it help and achieve anything at all  ?    

[saintant]

It's what coaches do at kids football matches. Maybe that tells us a lot about Russell's mind set.

[SambaMaverick]

From watching us, it seems that RM does a lot of work on patterns with the ball in specific scenarios but misses out a lot of other details in what to do when we don't have it, when the game isn't following those scenarios, and when his opposite number sets up specifically to nullify our strengths.

He loses control of a game at the drop of a hat, which is borne out in the idiotic substitutions he makes and some of the raving he does on the touchline. I just think he's an extremely limited coach with a clear ideology but doesn't have the resources or nous to implement it thoroughly.

[Toussaint]

Ralph was very bad for this as well as we witnessed during the lockdown games, hearing his minute by minute instructions. Letting the players play and adapt and react to what is actually happening is another aspect of modern football (see also life  in general), that is sucking the joy out of the spectacle. 

[Francis1947]

6 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

Ralph was very bad for this as well as we witnessed during the lockdown games, hearing his minute by minute instructions. Letting the players play and adapt and react to what is actually happening is another aspect of modern football (see also life  in general), that is sucking the joy out of the spectacle. 

Toussaint

Good point you made. It's not just football is it but this incessant instruction from on high that is just sucking the joy out of life in general.

I'm in moaning old git now but my paricular bugbear is being told by some young weather person on TV ( Thomas Schaffernacker is my particular bette noire ! )  to not just give us the bloody weather but then tell us to wrap up warm, wear a scarf or take an umbrella !!!!

I am 77 years of age and managed to just about survive all weathers up to now without the advice of young Thomas. In my 22 years in the Royal Navy I cannot remember Thomas or any of his ilk being around to help me weather the storms of the North Atlantic or particuarly so, the impressive seas of the South Atlantic in 1982 ! 

There....I feel better now !

[sadoldgit]

I seem to remember a coach of our getting grief because he didn’t do it a while back. The game has changed and coaches coach. When they used to be managers they managed. Does it make any difference? Who knows, but the team that wins will always be the one that scores more goals.

[Wurzel]

The odd instruction from the bench when they've spotted the opposition are doing something different than expected is fine, but to me the constant coaching/interferring by any manager shows a lack of confidence in their own ability to have prepared the team correctly.

Edited 10 December, 2024 by Wurzel

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

I'm more concerned about the incessant coaching at the training ground.

[Bakovnetski]

I salute your sage observations about the games. I agree with all those completely.

Maybe football needs to take more from rugby with regards to respect and dare I say honesty.

A fellow double-saints fan.

[Sheaf Saint]

46 minutes ago, Wurzel said:

The odd instruction from the bench when they've spotted the opposition are doing something different than expected is fine, but to me the constant coaching/interferring by any manager shows a lack of confidence in their own ability to have prepared the team correctly.

Yeah it comes across as extreme control freak behaviour, as if he doesn't trust the players to do their jobs and he's the only one who knows what to do.

A bit like my wife is in the kitchen when I'm trying to cook.

[Toadhall Saint]

As long as it works ……oh

[64saint]

One of the worst for constant touchline coaching has to be Pep at Man City. Not sure if he has lacked confidence in his ability.  Oh hang on !!!I that seems as if im comparing Pep to our very own Russell 🥱🫣.  

Edited 10 December, 2024 by 64saint

[derry]

4 hours ago, Francis1947 said:

Toussaint

Good point you made. It's not just football is it but this incessant instruction from on high that is just sucking the joy out of life in general.

I'm in moaning old git now but my paricular bugbear is being told by some young weather person on TV ( Thomas Schaffernacker is my particular bette noire ! )  to not just give us the bloody weather but then tell us to wrap up warm, wear a scarf or take an umbrella !!!!

I am 77 years of age and managed to just about survive all weathers up to now without the advice of young Thomas. In my 22 years in the Royal Navy I cannot remember Thomas or any of his ilk being around to help me weather the storms of the North Atlantic or particuarly so, the impressive seas of the South Atlantic in 1982 ! 

There....I feel better now !

You're absolutely spot on. I come from a family part of which is involved in rugby. Currently I have a young cousin, an Irish International fly half, now playing for Bordeaux. Started at Leinster, but Johnny Sexton was in the way so he was often at full back. He went to Munster as first choice but had his ankle trod on by a monster forward lying on the ground at the front of a ruck. while he was out Crowley came through so he couldn't get back in and so didn't renew his contract in the summer. The long and the short of it, I am an avid watcher of Rugby. The discipline in top rugby in the main is impressive from all concerned although the South Africans cut it fine.

Edited 10 December, 2024 by derry

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Wurzel said:

The odd instruction from the bench when they've spotted the opposition are doing something different than expected is fine, but to me the constant coaching/interferring by any manager shows a lack of confidence in their own ability to have prepared the team correctly.

It's because he always wants to be front of stage. It's all about him and his vanity. Nobody can do their job properly with somebody looking overvyheir shoulders and shouting instructions in their ears.

They can't hear him anyway and they certainly shouldn't be looking over to the touchline all the time wondering what to do next.

[LeG]

Let the players play. A manager shouting on the sidelines at you is so annoying. Esp when you were a better player than them.

[die Mannyschaft]

Whatever happened to the captain organjng and directing the team as the went along. You hear parents at junior level just constantly telling thier kid where to stand, when and where to run, who to pass, when do shoot.  It's remote football may just as well play FC24. 

Tablets, PowerPoint printouts bits of postit notes, shouting makes no difference if the tactics are wrong. And doesn't help fans watching boring football 

[Convict Colony]

2 hours ago, Toadhall Saint said:

As long as it works ……oh

Finally a joke about it 💪

[derry]

25 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Whatever happened to the captain organjng and directing the team as the went along. You hear parents at junior level just constantly telling thier kid where to stand, when and where to run, who to pass, when do shoot.  It's remote football may just as well play FC24. 

Tablets, PowerPoint printouts bits of postit notes, shouting makes no difference if the tactics are wrong. And doesn't help fans watching boring football 

Captains years ago were very influential, knowledgeable and able to change / influence matches. Nowadays any twat without a brain is usually the captain as in our case and really only does the toss..

[Lord Duckhunter]

It’s a load of old pony, and they’re all at it not just Lego head. They should sit quietly in the dug out or in the stand. If they’re in the dug out, they should only leave it to tweak something or dish out a bollocking. 

No wonder players can’t think for themselves. Souness tells the story of his Liverpool debut when in the dressing room he quietly mentioned to Ronnie Moran that nobody had told him how they wanted him to play. Loudly Moran shouted “we paid 350k for you and you’re asking me how to fucking play, work it out for yourself”. 

[Totton Saint]

Koeman used to lounge in his touchline chair as if he was sat in a deckchair at the seaside. He never tried to look like a windmill in a storm on the touchline.

Look how successful his players were!!

I have often voiced opinions, same as yours, to my wife. 

Well said you.

 

 

Edited 11 December, 2024 by Totton Saint
improvement

[Daft Kerplunk]

It’s largely performative, and or total control-freakery and micro-management, which is empirically proven to be counterproductive. It’s like the person who does really long days and arrives early and leaves late: are they better at their work, or are they ineffective in the standard time period. Nobody does their best work if someone is telling them what to do all the time, it is actually very poor management, whether in football or any other walk of life. 

[Dellyears]

2 hours ago, Totton Saint said:

Koeman used to lounge in his touchline chair as if he was sat in a deckchair at the seaside. He never tried to look like a windmill in a storm on the touchline.

Look how successful his players were!!

I have often voiced opinions, same as yours, to my wife. 

Well said you.

 

 

Not only Koeman....remember Alf Ramsey who even remained in his seat when everyone else was dancing and jigging after winning the World Cup.
He was boss off the field Bobby Moore was boss on the field.

[Saint Fan CaM]

In my experience managerial control freaks are essentially workplace bullies, particularly when they like to be ‘best mates’ with hugs. Then, when a mistake is made that plays right into their hands because it’s an excuse to control and manipulate even further. It’s demoralising and non-empowering. It’s not clever or brave.

Ask any forward thinking modern successful manager how to get the best from staff and the answer will be good coaching followed by clear objective setting and empowerment to do the best job possible. Iterative learning happens because individuals know instinctively when they’ve not performed - not because their pseudo-Dad tells them they’ve not followed his rules.

[St. Ciervo]

I am a school teacher for young teens, and I train other teachers. The sign of the best teachers is when your students know the systems in place, and the students could function without you in the room. I imagine the same carries onto the pitch. 

Edited 12 December, 2024 by St. Ciervo

[Chez]

It's a load of bollocks. Players don't need a coach shouting at them all bloody game. If they do then they probably shouldn't be in the side. 

What would you prefer, Pulis barking out bollocks for 90 minutes, or Clough having a word as and when it is required?

Sky loves it. Something extra to show other than the football. Managers love it. They get to be the ringmaster and that visibility and exposure has helped them get seriously paid. 

Are managers now contractually obliged to stand in the coaching box all game? Or do they just fear that if they are not seen to be coaching fans will think they are passive or don't have clue what to do?

 If managers were serious about wanting to impact the game, they'd watch it from high in the stands, not pitch side, allowing them to really see what was happening and come up with necessary tactic.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

On 10/12/2024 at 13:47, Francis1947 said:

There are no minute instructions, no shouting, no caterwalling and waving of arms. The work has been done on the training pitch the week before, strategy and tactics are agreed

And therein lies the problem - perhaps our work hasn't been done on the training pitch. In fact, I'd love to see what they actually do for a whole day's training at Staplewood.