Sugawara

[Dman]

(Mods feel free to merge this with his other thread - I'm yet to find out how to sensibly search of old threads) 

He gets such an easy ride of things, but sorry but this bloke is crap. Simply put, he's another Cedric - looks alright going forward but absolutely cannot defend to save his life.

Stop playing him, he's not good enough. 

[Gloucester Saint]

Sugawara, as with all of the current players, I’d like to see under a different manager so horrendously out of his depth. One who can vaguely organise defences and trains conventionally. 

[Whitey Grandad]

He always has a mistake in him.

[disconnect]

A bit harsh I think. Would've had him on the right yesterday and KWP on the left (as it ended up). Got a few good crosses in during the brief time he was on the pitch

[hypochondriac]

I think he will look great in the Championship next year if we don't get rid. 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I think he will look great in the Championship next year if we don't get rid. 

Plus we know KWP leaves and we didn’t pay a lot for Sugawara. A good season in the Champ in a more organised and professionalised set-up and he’ll be an asset (which is what SR cares about without realising the professionalism bit).

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Plus we know KWP leaves and we didn’t pay a lot for Sugawara. A good season in the Champ in a more organised and professionalised set-up and he’ll be an asset (which is what SR cares about without realising the professionalism bit).

We should have a genuinely decent Championship team, arguably better than last year if we can get a replacement for Adams and Downes if he leaves. 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

We should have a genuinely decent Championship team, arguably better than last year if we can get a replacement for Adams and Downes if he leaves. 

Not sure Flynn has shown enough to be consistently PL calibre. He could be in a better set-up where so much isn’t resting on him. New keeper as well. Bazanu is a bust and AM OK as back-up if the club were sensible enough to put a relegation clause in. 

[rallyboy]

Amid the first hour or so of lingering defensive chaos his late contribution did slide under the radar a bit.

His only job yesterday was literally to come on and not make a ridiculous mistake...

 

[CSA96]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Sugawara, as with all of the current players, I’d like to see under a different manager so horrendously out of his depth. One who can vaguely organise defences and trains conventionally. 

Why does the Saints manager need to be able to organise trains?

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Why does the Saints manager need to be able to organise trains?

They’d be like Euston on a Monday morning if he did.

[Dman]

1 hour ago, disconnect said:

A bit harsh I think. Would've had him on the right yesterday and KWP on the left (as it ended up). Got a few good crosses in during the brief time he was on the pitch

and lost us the game with some poor defending at the back post. Not for the first time this season either. 

[Dman]

55 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think he will look great in the Championship next year if we don't get rid. 

So does AA. Doesn't mean he's good enough at this level and his lack of abaility to defend is causing us to conceed goals. 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Dman said:

So does AA. Doesn't mean he's good enough at this level and his lack of abaility to defend is causing us to conceed goals. 

Not sure I agree. He hasn't stuck out as particularly bad. The whole defence sucks and as someone else has pointed out a lot of that is to do with Martin. 

[Whitey Grandad]

That's a couple of times now where he's misjudged the bounce of the ball. and it's  cost us a goal.

[Miltonaggro]

57 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

They’d be like Euston on a Monday morning if he did.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

We should have a genuinely decent Championship team, arguably better than last year if we can get a replacement for Adams and Downes if he leaves. 

If TP is still with us I reckon he'll score far more goals than Adams managed in the Championship - that's assuming he gets picked which should be a given after the skills he demonstrated yesterday against top quality defenders.

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

We should have a genuinely decent Championship team, arguably better than last year if we can get a replacement for Adams and Downes if he leaves. 

I’m not sure Downes has done enough to have PL battering down the door for him. Our Adams replacements will be BBD and Archer, so I’d argue we’re already stronger in that department.

Suga will probably be decent in a team I’d expect to be attacking more often than not. His clangers will probably not get punished quite so ruthlessly as they are now.

[tdmickey3]

2 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Plus we know KWP leaves and we didn’t pay a lot for Sugawara. A good season in the Champ in a more organised and professionalised set-up and he’ll be an asset (which is what SR cares about without realising the professionalism bit).

For this Martin must leave.

[hypochondriac]

52 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’m not sure Downes has done enough to have PL battering down the door for him. Our Adams replacements will be BBD and Archer, so I’d argue we’re already stronger in that department.

Suga will probably be decent in a team I’d expect to be attacking more often than not. His clangers will probably not get punished quite so ruthlessly as they are now.

Perhaps not but it wouldn't surprise me if he's in demand at one of the newly promoted teams like Leeds or similar. Assume we'd at least want our money back on him. Not sure we can call bbd an Adams replacement as he's not exactly been played as a striker. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Perhaps not but it wouldn't surprise me if he's in demand at one of the newly promoted teams like Leeds or similar. Assume we'd at least want our money back on him. Not sure we can call bbd an Adams replacement as he's not exactly been played as a striker. 

Playing as a central striker at a Championship level is undoubtedly where BBD plays best. He’ll score goals there if we go down, as will Archer, with Armstrong on the right. We’ve got plenty of Championship standard firepower on the books already.

Im not sure why we’d only want our money back on Downes. We don’t want to sell him and he’ll have a year of PL on when we first bought him. I don’t see why we’d want to sell him unless we were getting a substantial profit.

[hypochondriac]

30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Playing as a central striker at a Championship level is undoubtedly where BBD plays best. He’ll score goals there if we go down, as will Archer, with Armstrong on the right. We’ve got plenty of Championship standard firepower on the books already.

Im not sure why we’d only want our money back on Downes. We don’t want to sell him and he’ll have a year of PL on when we first bought him. I don’t see why we’d want to sell him unless we were getting a substantial profit.

I hope we won't want to sell him but who knows if we have agreements in place once we go down. 

[Disco Stu]

I think Sugawara is capable of being decent for us but I do think the initial lauding for the guy was over the top. He's very average. I've always thought it was a joke that we moved our best player in KWP to accomodate him.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

4 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I think Sugawara is capable of being decent for us but I do think the initial lauding for the guy was over the top. He's very average. I've always thought it was a joke that we moved our best player in KWP to accomodate him.

A few thoughts:

When he came in, I think it was to replace KWP who the club thought would move on, bringing in some funds.

The discussions to bring Suga in, would have, if not contractually, given some expectations on his potential minutes, competition with Bree.

KWP has said he's happy playing either position, so the solution was to play both.

It has left us with 2 attacking full backs. KWP had a more free role at times too. So, we're not balanced with both. Not to mention KWP is better on the right.

Suga, like all of our players, is having to fit into RussBall. We see lots of natural skills blunted to fit. To be fair, there's often a bit of this at any club. And everyone likes seeing a fullback attack into space. But RussBall depends on it. Suga racing forward, with no one else and losing it, is a risk under this system.

Suga may have to be even more defensively minded, to balance KWP, or KWP changing a bit for Suga, with neither approach bringing out the best.

Everyone is struggling by there being limited passing options from the back. Suga is having to develop that part of his game too.

A decent enough player having to adapt to a rigid system in an unsuccessful team, where his position has a better option available.

[Whitey Grandad]

29 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

A few thoughts:

When he came in, I think it was to replace KWP who the club thought would move on, bringing in some funds.

The discussions to bring Suga in, would have, if not contractually, given some expectations on his potential minutes, competition with Bree.

KWP has said he's happy playing either position, so the solution was to play both.

It has left us with 2 attacking full backs. KWP had a more free role at times too. So, we're not balanced with both. Not to mention KWP is better on the right.

Suga, like all of our players, is having to fit into RussBall. We see lots of natural skills blunted to fit. To be fair, there's often a bit of this at any club. And everyone likes seeing a fullback attack into space. But RussBall depends on it. Suga racing forward, with no one else and losing it, is a risk under this system.

Suga may have to be even more defensively minded, to balance KWP, or KWP changing a bit for Suga, with neither approach bringing out the best.

Everyone is struggling by there being limited passing options from the back. Suga is having to develop that part of his game too.

A decent enough player having to adapt to a rigid system in an unsuccessful team, where his position has a better option available.

Bree is a better player.

[Saint Fan CaM]

11 hours ago, Dman said:

(Mods feel free to merge this with his other thread - I'm yet to find out how to sensibly search of old threads) 

He gets such an easy ride of things, but sorry but this bloke is crap. Simply put, he's another Cedric - looks alright going forward but absolutely cannot defend to save his life.

Stop playing him, he's not good enough. 

Understand the sentiment, but I think that’s harsh on the lad for that particular passage of play. As the ball came across it was partially unsighted with another two players and he saw it late which caused him to be airborne when the ball struck his chest and the natural movement of his arm in flight made it look like he’d moved it towards the ball. Otherwise it might have been judged differently - I.e. ball to chest then arm which has been ‘allowed’ previously. That’s unlucky and let’s face it, playing Pool at 2-2 there’s only one way VAR was going to see it. It’s also just one instance in hundreds of defensive cock-ups by every single defender/midfielder on the books while trying to make sense of Russball.

[Disco Stu]

On 25/11/2024 at 19:43, Holmes_and_Watson said:

A few thoughts:

When he came in, I think it was to replace KWP who the club thought would move on, bringing in some funds.

The discussions to bring Suga in, would have, if not contractually, given some expectations on his potential minutes, competition with Bree.

KWP has said he's happy playing either position, so the solution was to play both.

It has left us with 2 attacking full backs. KWP had a more free role at times too. So, we're not balanced with both. Not to mention KWP is better on the right.

Suga, like all of our players, is having to fit into RussBall. We see lots of natural skills blunted to fit. To be fair, there's often a bit of this at any club. And everyone likes seeing a fullback attack into space. But RussBall depends on it. Suga racing forward, with no one else and losing it, is a risk under this system.

Suga may have to be even more defensively minded, to balance KWP, or KWP changing a bit for Suga, with neither approach bringing out the best.

Everyone is struggling by there being limited passing options from the back. Suga is having to develop that part of his game too.

A decent enough player having to adapt to a rigid system in an unsuccessful team, where his position has a better option available.

For me, the bottom line is that you don't nerf your best player. Once it was clear KWP was staying, he should have been playing in his best position. If that means upsetting Sugawara, so be it. In regards to balance, we have an experienced defensive left back that we signed last summer. Why sign a full-back with 166 PL appearances to not play them? If we're not obligated to play Charlie Taylor, I'd be surprised if we're obligated to play Sugawara.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both very average players, but one doesn't require KWP to move to the left. I imagine Taylor's experience would make him less inclined to silly errors as well.

Edited 26 November, 2024 by Disco Stu

[Saint Billy]

Suga looked good in his first few games but has since lost his mojo, or to be more correct had it suppressed by having to play the most turgid negative football he has probably ever experienced.

[Saint Fan CaM]

There was a moment later in the 2nd half where Suga launched the ball upfield to clear another dangerous ‘Pool attack. Russ was on the edge of the tech area giving Suga a bollicking for the clearance…he clearly ignored orders to play it out. Think Suga will find himself keeping Charlie Taylor company on the sidelines for a bit - the Russ equivalent of the naughty boy step. Bree incoming or Capt’n Jack moves to LB I wonder?

Edited 26 November, 2024 by Saint Fan CaM

[tdmickey3]

7 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

There was a moment later in the 2nd half where Suga launched the ball upfield to clear another dangerous ‘Pool attack. Russ was on the edge of the tech area giving Suga a bollicking for the clearance…he clearly ignored orders to play it out. Think Suga will find himself keeping Charlie Taylor company on the sidelines for a bit - the Russ equivalent of the naughty boy step. Bree incoming or Capt’n Jack moves to LB I wonder?

Pathetic behaviour 

Edited 26 November, 2024 by tdmickey3

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

For Forest I was waving the Japanese national flag for him but must admit, have put it away ever since. He really is quite average. Defending is woeful. Often out of position. But I do like his forward play and he has a reasonable cross. For that reason, I'm keeping the faith.

[saintstowin]

I haven't seen all his performances in full, he's looked as good as anyone in our defence and can clearly go forward well when I've seen him. I don't understand playing non-specialist players at the expense of and in the position of the likes of Sugawara and Taylor. They must be a better option and the approach won't do their confidence any good. 

[SWLondon Saint]

I think his confidence is shot. He's a young and fairly inexperienced defender who may or may not be good enough at this level but right now he's a mess.

Some of that is on him for not better mentally prepared, but there's no question that Martin is at least as guilty. He is clearly second guessing himself and Martin bollocks and drops him for his mistakes when Cap'n Jack can play any number of hospital passes and lose the ball in his 'libero' role and he's the first name on the teamsheet.

Anyway, he'll be stuck here for a few years as no-one will want him after this season so we should all hope he comes good! 😑

[SWLondon Saint]

21 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

As far as I'm concerned, they're both very average players, but one doesn't require KWP to move to the left. I imagine Taylor's experience would make him less inclined to silly errors as well.

On that note, what the hell is going on with Taylor? He seems to be in the same place ABK is in which is bloody weird considering he was just signed over the summer presumably with Martin's full knowledge? 

Just feels like as much as he has his favourites, he has his players he doesn't like and won't give a chance to either.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

23 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Bree is a better player.

I like Bree. He was well thought of before he joined us. With Jones' lack of impact, it's been a tough time for him. He's done lots of things well for someone getting so few minutes.

22 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

For me, the bottom line is that you don't nerf your best player. Once it was clear KWP was staying, he should have been playing in his best position. If that means upsetting Sugawara, so be it. In regards to balance, we have an experienced defensive left back that we signed last summer. Why sign a full-back with 166 PL apprearances to not play them? If we're not obligated to play Charlie Taylor, I'd be surprised if we're obligated to play Sugawara.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both very average players, but one doesn't require KWP to move to the left. I imagine Taylor's experience would make him less inclined to silly errors as well.

Agreed. KWP is better on the right. Therefore, put him there rather than some belated attempt to get him on the left in an England squad, unbalance or reduce the effectiveness of the team. With KWP's contract issue, and him missing a few games, Suga would have got some playing time.

19 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

There was a moment later in the 2nd half where Suga launched the ball upfield to clear another dangerous ‘Pool attack. Russ was on the edge of the tech area giving Suga a bollicking for the clearance…he clearly ignored orders to play it out. Think Suga will find himself keeping Charlie Taylor company on the sidelines for a bit - the Russ equivalent of the naughty boy step. Bree incoming or Capt’n Jack moves to LB I wonder?

This is what's going on across the team. Drilled relentlessly to pass. When there are better options, then that can be worked on. But we're left with a team that sometimes don't know what the best option is. Cue errors as they're mentally stuck. Not to mention the pressure of the opponents, and the lack of options they frequently have.

[Saint Billy]

For what it's worth why is Sugar getting the flack, Downes has looked undeniably well under par along with most of the squad from last season and they are use to playing this god damn awful system.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

5 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

For what it's worth why is Sugar getting the flack, Downes has looked undeniably well under par along with most of the squad from last season and they are use to playing this god damn awful system.

I think that under this system, and it's impact nearly everyone will be performing under par.

Suga is a recent recruit, so we're watching him have to adjust to RussBall, and show less of his natural skills. So, it stands out a bit more perhaps?

[Gloucester Saint]

25 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

For what it's worth why is Sugar getting the flack, Downes has looked undeniably well under par along with most of the squad from last season and they are use to playing this god damn awful system.

It’s a good point, even before Sunday Flynn has been poor this season and he’s supposed to Martin’s fulcrum (which is ridiculous pressure to be under, but that’s Russell for you). 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

33 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

It’s a good point, even before Sunday Flynn has been poor this season and he’s supposed to Martin’s fulcrum (which is ridiculous pressure to be under, but that’s Russell for you). 

And then he places his fulcrum as centre back...more ridiculousness from RM. It's frustrating watching talented players not being given the licence to show what they can do. Suga doesn't come across as too talented but he does come across as a workhorse who likes to go forward - so if you put him in the team give him that licence.

[SWLondon Saint]

1 hour ago, Saint Billy said:

For what it's worth why is Sugar getting the flack, Downes has looked undeniably well under par along with most of the squad from last season and they are use to playing this god damn awful system.

I don't particularly blame Suga, but this thread is about him, so gave my honest thoughts. I do think it's too early to make a judgement, and I do also definitely think other players have been more at fault and the manager most of all.

Downes is another one bring shafted by the system. What kind of muppet asks their main CM to play in a back 3?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

45 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

It’s a good point, even before Sunday Flynn has been poor this season and he’s supposed to Martin’s fulcrum (which is ridiculous pressure to be under, but that’s Russell for you). 

When I saw the line up, I said to myself not to read too much into it. After all, I told myself, formations are fluid things these days. He'll have some sort of DM with extra cover, sort of thing.

Nope. Right in the middle of defence. Clanger ensues, due to being drilled to pass and not being able to realise not to do it there.

[John Boy Saint]

The situation with Suga slight reminds me of Maya Yoshida. In that when Maya was dipped in and out of the squad when he played for the first time in a while you could see the “ring rust” falling off him every time he kicked the ball - given a prolonged spell in the team he got better and better and only an idiot couldn’t see his excellent reading of the game.  
Sugawara has been dipped in and out of games and given no flow to his game. That penalty on Sunday - you could play that ball into the box 100 times and that ball wouldn’t go chest - hand -hand.

[Saint Fan CaM]

3 hours ago, John Boy Saint said:

The situation with Suga slight reminds me of Maya Yoshida. In that when Maya was dipped in and out of the squad when he played for the first time in a while you could see the “ring rust” falling off him every time he kicked the ball - given a prolonged spell in the team he got better and better and only an idiot couldn’t see his excellent reading of the game.  
Sugawara has been dipped in and out of games and given no flow to his game. That penalty on Sunday - you could play that ball into the box 100 times and that ball wouldn’t go chest - hand -hand.

Yeah that’s an excellent analogy - he’s not the only to both have to attempt adapt to Russball AND do it through sporadic appearances. A master class in rubbish team management.