Saints 2-3 Liverpool - Match Thread

[Dellyears]

4 minutes ago, saintant said:

I kind of get where you are coming from but yesterday was the exception rather than the norm. Most of our play this season has been boring and tedious and I think Tall Paul helped add a different dimension yesterday. Why RM ignored him last season and for most of this is something only he can answer but he seems to have these stubborn traits which cloud his judgement. I and many others on here believe we have a team capable of far more than RM's methods are getting out of them but he has admitted time and again that he has no intention of changing. A good manager will weigh up his options and set up a team to get the maximum out of them. There is no better feeling in football than to see your team go out and put on a performance to be proud of and, having supported the club for 60 years, I've seen plenty of games where we punched way above our weight and used what we had to maximum effect thanks to good management. I'm sorry to say I don't think those sort of performances will happen under RM because he is too set in his one way of playing which, clearly to  most of us, doesn't work. We have always been a team that concedes plenty of goals but, on the flip side, we've always been capable of creating and scoring plenty ourselves by getting the ball forward quick and also pressing high up the pitch. I'd love to see those days return but it won't happen under the current manager and his coaches who fall well short of what is needed.

True! The squad has enough talent to be mid table. I know critics on this forum have rubbished the recruitment - there are always failures, ask Man Utd, but there  have also been excellent buys and we will lose them if we don't get a proper manager who knows how to get the best out of them. Can't the owners see this? Everyone else can.

[Lighthouse]

28 minutes ago, Dellyears said:

True! The squad has enough talent to be mid table. I know critics on this forum have rubbished the recruitment - there are always failures, ask Man Utd, but there  have also been excellent buys and we will lose them if we don't get a proper manager who knows how to get the best out of them. Can't the owners see this? Everyone else can.

Mid table?! We have comfortably one of the bottom three, if not the worst, squads in the league.

[tdmickey3]

12 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Mid table?! We have comfortably one of the bottom three, if not the worst, squads in the league.

No we don`t, we have a squad capable of better but have a manager making them look awful

[OldNick]

34 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Mid table?! We have comfortably one of the bottom three, if not the worst, squads in the league.

 

34 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Mid table?! We have comfortably one of the bottom three, if not the worst, squads in the league.

I agree our fans have a real misjudgement of the quality of our squad compared to the rest. We are pinning our hopes on an 18year old kid.

I cant see many PL clubs chasing any of our players in January apart from Tyler, and KWP looking to get him cheap

[derry]

The problem is the manager. The suicidal short passing straitjacket the defence has to use is only part of the problem. It's what dictates the total shape and the positioning of our players. The slow short passing not only attracts the opposition to press, it draws our attackers and midfielders into our own half. The shape makes it innappropriate to then play long as we aren't set up with attackers tight up on the oppositions defenders and are just gifting them possession.

If our keeper is going to play long as Pope does at Newcastle he needs targets up the field to hit who are then reinforced by the team rapidly moving forward with the exception of the back four who maintain the defence so any break or ball over the top is covered. Full backs required not wing backs.

We can't play long with the present tactics and the opposition know it, neither can we continue with the suicidal play in our defensive third. The only solution as far as I'm concerned is get a manager that plays in a way that is more varied and frees the players up.

[Sheaf Saint]

17 minutes ago, derry said:

The problem is the manager. The suicidal short passing straitjacket the defence has to use is only part of the problem. It's what dictates the total shape and the positioning of our players. The slow short passing not only attracts the opposition to press, it draws our attackers and midfielders into our own half. The shape makes it innappropriate to then play long as we aren't set up with attackers tight up on the oppositions defenders and are just gifting them possession.

If our keeper is going to play long as Pope does at Newcastle he needs targets up the field to hit who are then reinforced by the team rapidly moving forward with the exception of the back four who maintain the defence so any break or ball over the top is covered. Full backs required not wing backs.

We can't play long with the present tactics and the opposition know it, neither can we continue with the suicidal play in our defensive third. The only solution as far as I'm concerned is get a manager that plays in a way that is more varied and frees the players up.

Exactly this.

I was pleasantly surprised that Russ had chosen to play Onuachu yesterday, and I loved his amazing bit of showboating to escape the press of 3 or 4 Pool players at one point, but that all started back near our own box. What is the point of having that kind of presence on the pitch - someone with height and strength to hold the ball up - but not play to his strengths (by hitting early crosses to him) and expect him to come back into his own half to see any of the ball? it's just total insanity.

[Dellyears]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Exactly this.

I was pleasantly surprised that Russ had chosen to play Onuachu yesterday, and I loved his amazing bit of showboating to escape the press of 3 or 4 Pool players at one point, but that all started back near our own box. What is the point of having that kind of presence on the pitch - someone with height and strength to hold the ball up - but not play to his strengths (by hitting early crosses to him) and expect him to come back into his own half to see any of the ball? it's just total insanity.

The manager seems to be a really nice sociable fellow and the players obviously like him, a glass or two with him would be fun. Perhaps he could be pundit or train a ladies team, there's lots he could do but managing a Premier League club is definitely not one of them and we need the change pronto.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

A lot of blame has been piled on Macca on this thread for not releasing himself from the short passing/rolling-out brainwashing mantra when he gave the ball to Fernandes before the first Liverpool goal.  But he was under pressure, not only from what Martin has told him to do, by being urged by Stephens, who was standing beside him, to give the ball quickly to Fernandes.  I doubt that many keepers would have done anything else given all the pre-match training and the instruction from the captain during the match.  For me, Macca was not to blame for the goal; the system that the players are drilled to play was.

For their second goal, I thought that Macca somehow did not realise that Salah was rushing goalwards and would easily beat him to the ball.  That is the only explanation I have for why the goalie was where he was when Salah scored.  If AM had stayed in or near his 6-yard box he might have prevented the goal.

For the third goal, I thought Sugawara badly misjudged the flight and bounce of the ball.  And we were unlucky not to get the benefit of the doubt for “intentional” handball after the ball first seemed to hit his chest before it hit his arm.  I’ve seen similar ones not given.

Dibling did very well for both our goals.  Armstrong’s penalty was a tame effort and he was lucky that the follow-up did not ricochet away from the goal after hitting the goalie’s leg.  I was pleasantly surprised that we got the penalty decision; I’ve seen similar ones not given, especially as we were playing Liverpool.

I thought Suga, Dibling, Armstrong and Fernandes did brilliantly for our second goal.  If only we played like that more often.

And, like others, I thoroughly enjoyed TP’s efforts.  Such a shame that he has been treated so shabbily so far by Selles and Martin.

We did a lot better than I thought we would but gifted the win to Liverpool and came away with no points yet again.

This disastrous season continues.  It tries the patience of a Saint.

 

[Saint Fan CaM]

With McCarthy brain fart goal, I immediately thought Macca thought Salah was going to be called offside and so pulled out of a challenge. Not sure if anyone spotted the Lino, but if he gave even the slightest hint he was raising his flag that would have influenced AM.

[Convict Colony]

Saw this made me laugh

"A fight on Westminster Bridge. A suspicious package in Chester. Lord Lucan and Shergar still missing. Southampton keep playing out from the back. What are the authorities hiding? "

[notnowcato]

2 hours ago, Tommy Mulgrew said:

A lot of blame has been piled on Macca on this thread for not releasing himself from the short passing/rolling-out brainwashing mantra when he gave the ball to Fernandes before the first Liverpool goal.  But he was under pressure, not only from what Martin has told him to do, by being urged by Stephens, who was standing beside him, to give the ball quickly to Fernandes.  I doubt that many keepers would have done anything else given all the pre-match training and the instruction from the captain during the match.  For me, Macca was not to blame for the goal; the system that the players are drilled to play was.

For their second goal, I thought that Macca somehow did not realise that Salah was rushing goalwards and would easily beat him to the ball.  That is the only explanation I have for why the goalie was where he was when Salah scored.  If AM had stayed in or near his 6-yard box he might have prevented the goal.

For the third goal, I thought Sugawara badly misjudged the flight and bounce of the ball.  And we were unlucky not to get the benefit of the doubt for “intentional” handball after the ball first seemed to hit his chest before it hit his arm.  I’ve seen similar ones not given.

Dibling did very well for both our goals.  Armstrong’s penalty was a tame effort and he was lucky that the follow-up did not ricochet away from the goal after hitting the goalie’s leg.  I was pleasantly surprised that we got the penalty decision; I’ve seen similar ones not given, especially as we were playing Liverpool.

I thought Suga, Dibling, Armstrong and Fernandes did brilliantly for our second goal.  If only we played like that more often.

And, like others, I thoroughly enjoyed TP’s efforts.  Such a shame that he has been treated so shabbily so far by Selles and Martin.

We did a lot better than I thought we would but gifted the win to Liverpool and came away with no points yet again.

This disastrous season continues.  It tries the patience of a Saint.

 

Funny how Macca makes 2 howlers and it’s the managers fault. Ramsdale isnt making those blunders - despite the apparent brainwashing going on at Staplewood. Give me strength. 

[notnowcato]

5 hours ago, derry said:

The problem is the manager. The suicidal short passing straitjacket the defence has to use is only part of the problem. It's what dictates the total shape and the positioning of our players. The slow short passing not only attracts the opposition to press, it draws our attackers and midfielders into our own half. The shape makes it innappropriate to then play long as we aren't set up with attackers tight up on the oppositions defenders and are just gifting them possession.

If our keeper is going to play long as Pope does at Newcastle he needs targets up the field to hit who are then reinforced by the team rapidly moving forward with the exception of the back four who maintain the defence so any break or ball over the top is covered. Full backs required not wing backs.

We can't play long with the present tactics and the opposition know it, neither can we continue with the suicidal play in our defensive third. The only solution as far as I'm concerned is get a manager that plays in a way that is more varied and frees the players up.

Problem? Singular? Seriously??!!

[notnowcato]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

With McCarthy brain fart goal, I immediately thought Macca thought Salah was going to be called offside and so pulled out of a challenge. Not sure if anyone spotted the Lino, but if he gave even the slightest hint he was raising his flag that would have influenced AM.

Even if there was the slightest chance of this being remotely true/ likely he still should have wiped the fucking Egyptian king out. 

[Appy]

The Onuachu chant is awful isn’t it? 
 

Why are people singing about the bloke’s cock?

[Osvaldorama]

9 hours ago, notnowcato said:

Brilliant saves??  Really?  Average saves but then that wouldn't suit the crescendo of your post of everything being Martin's fault. 

Yes, he did make a few top saves. (If bazunu was playing yesterday, the score would have been a lot worse.)

This season quite literally is Martin’s fault.

Out of interest, how many goals do we have to concede from basic mistakes at the back before you are willing to shift the blame from the players to the manager?

(Open question to fabrice, gio etc )

At what point will you accept the system is at fault and not just player errors? 
 

 

[Tommy Mulgrew]

47 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Funny how Macca makes 2 howlers and it’s the managers fault. Ramsdale isnt making those blunders - despite the apparent brainwashing going on at Staplewood. Give me strength. 

 

I have explained why I think as I do.  I do not expect everyone to agree.  You, on the other hand, seem to like belittling those who do not think as you do.  In a funny sort of way I feel sorry for you: life must be infuriating for you.  If you read what I said again, you will see that I did not blame Martin for both mistakes; I blamed the system (admittedly his system) for one and AM’s apparent inability to see where Salah would get to the ball for the other.  And I did not say that Rambo would not behave the same way; I am surprised that you believe that I should think that he would.

I hope you get it right next time.

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Yes, he did make a few top saves. (If bazunu was playing yesterday, the score would have been a lot worse.)

This season quite literally is Martin’s fault.

Out of interest, how many goals do we have to concede from basic mistakes at the back before you are willing to shift the blame from the players to the manager?

(Open question to fabrice, gio etc )

At what point will you accept the system is at fault and not just player errors? 
 

 

If it's a basic mistake it probably shouldn't be made whatever system or manager you have in place. I can find you examples of McCarthy making basic mistakes pre Martin and his system if you like?

[trousers]

14 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

If it's a basic mistake it probably shouldn't be made whatever system or manager you have in place. I can find you examples of McCarthy making basic mistakes pre Martin and his system if you like?

In which case, I wonder why Martin lied on MotD at the weekend when he directly linked McCarthy's error to the way he wants him to play, rather than just saying it was "just one of those mistakes that every keeper makes from time to time"...?

[Fabrice29]

Just now, trousers said:

In which case, I wonder why Martin lied on MotD at the weekend when he directly linked McCarthy's error to the way he wants him to play, rather than just saying it was "just one of those mistakes that every keeper makes from time to time"...?

Because he's protecting the player like any good manager would do? His actions of dropping him and signing a replacement are pretty big indicators of what he really thinks.

[Thereisonlyonemickychannon]

On 24/11/2024 at 16:05, saintant said:

Russell will take 2 things from that - he'll view it as a moral victory but he'll be furious at our lack of possession.

It's like watching the Keystone cops when we play out from the back. A bloody funny catastrophe 

[saintant]

31 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Because he's protecting the player like any good manager would do? His actions of dropping him and signing a replacement are pretty big indicators of what he really thinks.

What about any bad manager seeing as that's what he is?

[trousers]

32 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Because he's protecting the player like any good manager would do?

Writing it off as "just one of those mistakes that all keepers make" would also count as protecting him. Maybe, just maybe, Russ was speaking the truth? (Unless you can rule out that possibility...?)

[Fabrice29]

Just now, trousers said:

Writing it off as "just one of those mistakes that all keepers make" would also count as protecting him. Maybe, just maybe, Russ was speaking the truth? (Unless you can rule out that possibility...?)

If you actually read/watch the long form answer on this in the press conference he explains that he tells his players to play quickly and needs to do better explaining when to do that because that obviously isn't the right time to do it. But again, as Lighthouse explained on here, why anyone needs that explaining let alone an experienced keeper like McCarthy is baffling and I suspect he'll be dropped again the moment Ramsdale is fit because Martin will think it's insane too.

But if you want to live in a world where every mistake McCarthy now makes is purely Martin based then good for you my friend.

[trousers]

4 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

if you want to live in a world where every mistake McCarthy now makes is purely Martin based then good for you my friend.

I've never said or insinuating such a notion, ergo, it's unlikely you'll see me in such a world. But if you actually paid attention, you'd already know that, 'my friend'...

Edited 25 November, 2024 by trousers

[Fabrice29]

7 hours ago, tdmickey3 said:

No we don`t, we have a squad capable of better but have a manager making them look awful

There is very few of our squad that have played PL football and not been relegated by the way.

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

I've never said or insinuating such a notion, ergo, it's unlikely you'll see me in such a world. But if you actually paid attention, you'd already know that, 'my friend'...

Fair enough, my bad.

[cambsaint]

I was always told that to continue doing the same thing and to expect different results was a good working definition of insanity.

Unfortunately we just don't seem to learn.

[notnowcato]

2 hours ago, Tommy Mulgrew said:

 

I have explained why I think as I do.  I do not expect everyone to agree.  You, on the other hand, seem to like belittling those who do not think as you do.  In a funny sort of way I feel sorry for you: life must be infuriating for you.  If you read what I said again, you will see that I did not blame Martin for both mistakes; I blamed the system (admittedly his system) for one and AM’s apparent inability to see where Salah would get to the ball for the other.  And I did not say that Rambo would not behave the same way; I am surprised that you believe that I should think that he would.

I hope you get it right next time.

Calm down, my point was more general but used your post as a marker. 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

If it's a basic mistake it probably shouldn't be made whatever system or manager you have in place. I can find you examples of McCarthy making basic mistakes pre Martin and his system if you like?

It’s a mistake that shouldn’t be made. But you have to organise your defence to reduce the chance that it might be made.

[tdmickey3]

8 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Because he's protecting the player like any good manager would do? His actions of dropping him and signing a replacement are pretty big indicators of what he really thinks.

If he thinks he is bad why give a contract extension then?

[Alanh]

Probably the best performance of the season by Saints against a team that is one of the best in the world at pressing and putting their opponents under pressure in their own defensive third.  I've seen most of the teams in the league this season make the sort of mistake that led to their first goal so it's short sighted to just blame it on RM. If Fernandes decides to let the ball roll across his body and travel upfield with it he takes out about 4 Liverpool players and we are on the attack.  He didn't and played it back and te rest is history. Personally I'm putting the majority of the blame on FD as he had a clear chance to put it out for a throw, rather than put it back into the centre of the goal.  Compare that to the  criticism a keeper would rightly get on here for pushing a shot back into the middle of the goal.

Good performances all over the pitch.  PO showed up more than I've ever seen before, it was just a shame his best work was done in the middle of the pitch.  I'm stll not convinced he's a classic target man, as I don't think he won more than a couple of headers all game.

I'm pretty sure the wind played a part in the second goal - probably held it up a bit allowing Salah to reach it ahead of AM. It may also have had a role in the third if Suga misjudged the flight of the ball.

[Whitey Grandad]

48 minutes ago, Alanh said:

Probably the best performance of the season by Saints against a team that is one of the best in the world at pressing and putting their opponents under pressure in their own defensive third.  I've seen most of the teams in the league this season make the sort of mistake that led to their first goal so it's short sighted to just blame it on RM. If Fernandes decides to let the ball roll across his body and travel upfield with it he takes out about 4 Liverpool players and we are on the attack.  He didn't and played it back and te rest is history. Personally I'm putting the majority of the blame on FD as he had a clear chance to put it out for a throw, rather than put it back into the centre of the goal.  Compare that to the  criticism a keeper would rightly get on here for pushing a shot back into the middle of the goal.

Good performances all over the pitch.  PO showed up more than I've ever seen before, it was just a shame his best work was done in the middle of the pitch.  I'm stll not convinced he's a classic target man, as I don't think he won more than a couple of headers all game.

I'm pretty sure the wind played a part in the second goal - probably held it up a bit allowing Salah to reach it ahead of AM. It may also have had a role in the third if Suga misjudged the flight of the ball.

Had he done that he would have immediately been closed down and most probably lost the ball.

[Alanh]

9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Had he done that he would have immediately been closed down and most probably lost the ball.

There was definitely risk in letting the ball roll, but if he had completed it successfully, he would have been away from the nearest opponents and we would have been breaking at speed.  All ifs and buts unfortunately, but I can see why AM saw the opportunity.

Edited 26 November, 2024 by Alanh
typo

[spyinthesky]

One of the (many) strange things that I noticed on Sunday was McCarthy playing a goal kicj a matter of inches to Downes who then boots the ball upfield.

Surely McCarthy could have done that himself.

Also the annoying 'tactic' of directing throw ins and often free kicks back towards our own goal rather than forward.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, spyinthesky said:

One of the (many) strange things that I noticed on Sunday was McCarthy playing a goal kicj a matter of inches to Downes who then boots the ball upfield.

Surely McCarthy could have done that himself.

And the pair of them are then playing the opposition onside.

[redkeith]

1 hour ago, Alanh said:

There was definitely risk in letting the ball roll, but if he had completed it successfully, he would have been away from the nearest opponents and we would have been breaking at speed.  All ifs and buts unfortunately, but I can see why AM saw the opportunity.

I know Fernades is good, but even Dani Olmo wouldn't try a turn like that on the edge of his own box with 4 opponents pressing on him. 

It says a lot about our recruitment and squad management that we end up with our only Defensive Midfielder  playing at CB, while 2 summer CB signings are not on the bench, and neither is ABK or Charlie Taylor. 

 

[spyinthesky]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in earlier posts but does anyone think that Lallana could have had a straight red for the first half tackle for which he received a yellow and probably injured himself in the process?

[BERMUDASAINT]

McCarthy fault for the first goal trying to play Russball. He is trying too hard to be what he is not, a ball playing keeper. 

I understand his confidence must be fragile, playung behind Baz, who was not doing great at stopping shots but good with his feet. Then only getting his chance afer Baz is injured. He played brilliantly doing what he does best, shot stopping, and gets us promoted and a new contract. It helped we did not play back to the keeper as much in those games.

PL and the bench again as we buy a better keeper who can play out from the back. Damn he is crushed again by the managers decision as he is not a ball playing keeper.

So he gets his chance again due to injury, and is ready to show he has practiced and can be a ball playing keeper.

He whants to show he can do it, forces that throw in to FD in a dangerous area after cesspool had closed us down. This is his mistake trying to hard to please the manager. A mistake that he has to learn from, just like Ramsdale. 

Ramsdale too was guilty of this in the beggining, but after a few calamoutus goals trying to play out from the defence, he finally grew back his balls to make his own decissions and boot the ball out under preaser, or tell our defence to push out as we are pinned in and kick the ball to our wings or strikers.

As for the second goal, trying too hard to impress again, sweeper keeper? Come on dude, your too slow, stay in the goal and save shots, thats your strength. 

[verlaine1979]

8 hours ago, Alanh said:

There was definitely risk in letting the ball roll, but if he had completed it successfully, he would have been away from the nearest opponents and we would have been breaking at speed.  All ifs and buts unfortunately, but I can see why AM saw the opportunity.

Not just a risk - you try taking that ball on the turn with that many players pressing on the edge of the box, you lose it 99 times out of 100 and concede.

[saintstowin]

TP's skiilz very enjoyable but (as others have mentioned) he didn't receive the ball at the end of the pitch he's meant to be at. I'm not a get it in the mixer at every opportunity fan, but occasionally would be nice, especially with a big fella up there. We just don't know how to. 

There was an early fk near halfway that (ofcourse) Stephens stood over. He looked like he wanted to play it towards the box maybe, but this is currently the antithesis of how we're coached. Back the ball went, about five yards, possession handed over within a few seconds. 

[Osvaldorama]

22 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

If you actually read/watch the long form answer on this in the press conference he explains that he tells his players to play quickly and needs to do better explaining when to do that because that obviously isn't the right time to do it. But again, as Lighthouse explained on here, why anyone needs that explaining let alone an experienced keeper like McCarthy is baffling and I suspect he'll be dropped again the moment Ramsdale is fit because Martin will think it's insane too.

But if you want to live in a world where every mistake McCarthy now makes is purely Martin based then good for you my friend.

If it was just a one off, you may have a point. 
 

But we are the one of the worst teams in the country for conceding goals from our own mistakes. (And we were last season, too.)
 

It doesn’t matter that it was Liverpool. We would do the same thing if it was Tranmere. It’s the system. It’s the way the manager sets us up. He tells the players to take stupid risks. 

Edited 26 November, 2024 by Osvaldorama

[tdmickey3]

10 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

If it was just a one off, you may have a point. 
 

But we are the one of the worst teams in the country for conceding goals from our own mistakes. (And we were last season, too.)
 

It doesn’t matter that it was Liverpool. We would do the same thing if it was Tranmere. It’s the system. It’s the way the manager sets us up. He tells the players to take stupid risks. 

Mate, its pointless trying to get him/her/them to understand or accept it, like arguing with a wall but thicker

[Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan]

This might have been covered (I've not read all 23 pages) but it was frustrating seeing corners be taken short when we had the tallest player on the pitch being marked by their left back at corners.

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

This might have been covered (I've not read all 23 pages) but it was frustrating seeing corners be taken short when we had the tallest player on the pitch being marked by their left back at corners.

Yeah, but that would risk losing possession...

[Whitey Grandad]

On 26/11/2024 at 11:48, Osvaldorama said:

If it was just a one off, you may have a point. 
 

But we are the one of the worst teams in the country for conceding goals from our own mistakes. (And we were last season, too.)
 

It doesn’t matter that it was Liverpool. We would do the same thing if it was Tranmere. It’s the system. It’s the way the manager sets us up. He tells the players to take stupid risks. 

But if they didn’t take risks he couldn’t call them brave.

[derry]

11 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

But if they didn’t take risks he couldn’t call them brave.

But he and everybody else could call them stupid. I can't help thinking that sooner rather than later he'll lose them to the realisation that they've been had.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, derry said:

But he and everybody else could call them stupid. I can't help thinking that sooner rather than later he'll lose them to the realisation that they've been had.

As have we all. 
 

Well, some of us anyway.