Saints 2-3 Liverpool - Match Thread

[Dman]

What has happened to Charlie Taylor? Why is he not getting a sniff? at 2-2, the locgial sub (was he even on the bench?) is to bring on CT, rather than Suga who is absolutely useless defensively. 

[Lighthouse]

28 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

 

 

1. I don’t care how Russ asked him to play, a professional goalkeeper shouldn’t be doing that.
2. He's clearly defending his players in the media, which I admire but it’s not necessarily the whole truth.
3. McCarthy is very clearly Martin’s third choice keeper when everyone is fit, that’s how highly he actually rates him.
4. I thought everything Martin said in interviews was absolute nonsense and we didn’t listen to it.
5. I am gobsmacked that anyone who watches football would blame Bazunu for the goals we conceded against Ipswich last year but NOT blame McC for the first goal yesterday.

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

1. I don’t care how Russ asked him to play, a professional goalkeeper shouldn’t be doing that.
2. He's clearly defending his players in the media, which I admire but it’s not necessarily the whole truth.
3. McCarthy is very clearly Martin’s third choice keeper when everyone is fit, that’s how highly he actually rates him.
4. I thought everything Martin said in interviews was absolute nonsense and we didn’t listen to it.
5. I am gobsmacked that anyone who watches football would blame Bazunu for the goals we conceded against Ipswich last year but NOT blame McC for the first goal yesterday.

100% correct. The hatred for Martin on here is tying people up in knots. Probably the other way too admittedly but the desire to throw everything that happens at Martins feet is insane. 
 

Heard people coming out of the ground saying it was such an unlike Martin performance yesterday it’s proof we don’t need him because we played well. Then on here it’s considered a typical Martin fuck up that we didn’t win. The lad can’t breathe without it being the sole reason we’re losing. The lack of consideration for players doing stupid shit, some of whom have done it two (and arguably more) seasons in a row in this league is incredible.

[Dman]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

1. I don’t care how Russ asked him to play, a professional goalkeeper shouldn’t be doing that.

When McCarthy did decide to go long and clear the danger, it sparked a sarcy reaction from the manager... damned if you do, damned if you don't springs to mind. 

McCarthy is clearly not comfortable playing this way, we need to adjust to suit that. That pass is on the manager, noone else. 

[Osvaldorama]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

1. I don’t care how Russ asked him to play, a professional goalkeeper shouldn’t be doing that.
2. He's clearly defending his players in the media, which I admire but it’s not necessarily the whole truth.
3. McCarthy is very clearly Martin’s third choice keeper when everyone is fit, that’s how highly he actually rates him.
4. I thought everything Martin said in interviews was absolute nonsense and we didn’t listen to it.
5. I am gobsmacked that anyone who watches football would blame Bazunu for the goals we conceded against Ipswich last year but NOT blame McC for the first goal yesterday.

No one blames bazunu for the short passing. It’s his only strength. 
 

People hate Bazunu because he’s the worst shot stopper we’ve ever had, and his playing out from the back doesn’t make up for the copious errors. 

McCarthy made some brilliant saves yesterday, then made a complete mess of playing a dangerous style of football that he shouldn’t be asked to play. 

Martin’s football philosophy is directly responsible for McCarthy panicking and throwing it into danger. 

 

[tdmickey3]

2 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

No one blames bazunu for the short passing. It’s his only strength. 
 

People hate Bazunu because he’s the worst shot stopper we’ve ever had, and his playing out from the back doesn’t make up for the copious errors. 

McCarthy made some brilliant saves yesterday, then made a complete mess of playing a dangerous style of football that he shouldn’t be asked to play. 

Martin’s football philosophy is directly responsible for McCarthy panicking and throwing it into danger. 

 

100% Correct

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, Dman said:

When McCarthy did decide to go long and clear the danger, it sparked a sarcy reaction from the manager... damned if you do, damned if you don't springs to mind. 

McCarthy is clearly not comfortable playing this way, we need to adjust to suit that. That pass is on the manager, noone else. 

The difference with McCarthy going long was unlike the goal he had plenty of time to take a touch and find a player but was rushed into smacking long by a crowd that got increasingly agitated every time we completed a pass near our own goal. Martin also had a go at Sugawara for doing the same late on and THB was consistently having a go at others for doing it throughout the game. 

[Sheaf Saint]

16 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

1. I don’t care how Russ asked him to play, a professional goalkeeper shouldn’t be doing that.
2. He's clearly defending his players in the media, which I admire but it’s not necessarily the whole truth.
3. McCarthy is very clearly Martin’s third choice keeper when everyone is fit, that’s how highly he actually rates him.
4. I thought everything Martin said in interviews was absolute nonsense and we didn’t listen to it.
5. I am gobsmacked that anyone who watches football would blame Bazunu for the goals we conceded against Ipswich last year but NOT blame McC for the first goal yesterday.

Right so even though it's come straight from the horse's mouth, you're still not having it. Okay then.

I'm not defending McCarthy at all. He's a very poor keeper and I agree it was a terrible decision to play that pass, and he must take a lot of the blame for it.

But - and this is the bit that you seem utterly incapable of grasping so far - why did he make that decision? For all the howlers he has made over the years with us, I don't recall "suicidal underarm pass to a marked player in his own penalty area" being in his repertoire before now. So what's changed?

The answer is glaringly obvious. It's symptomatic of the way he has been asked to play by the manager (who has even admitted as much) - so the manager himself must also shoulder a lot of the blame for asking AM to play in a way in which he is not competent.

It's really not rocket science.

Edited 25 November, 2024 by Sheaf Saint

[Gloucester Saint]

8x8’s representatives back on the topic of fan-blaming this morning I see. It wasn’t Alex or Russell’s fault for the dreadful goals conceded, it was ours for encouraging Alex and Sugawara to go long.

#textbook

[tdmickey3]

5 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

The difference with McCarthy going long was unlike the goal he had plenty of time to take a touch and find a player but was rushed into smacking long by a crowd that got increasingly agitated every time we completed a pass near our own goal. Martin also had a go at Sugawara for doing the same late on and THB was consistently having a go at others for doing it throughout the game. 

Now the chief apologist is blaming the fans too, anything to deflect any blame from his idol..... pathetic and hilarious at the same time

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Now the chief apologist is blaming the fans too, anything to deflect any blame from his idol..... pathetic and hilarious at the same time

8x8 = 64

[Football Special]

10 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

No one blames bazunu for the short passing. It’s his only strength. 
 

People hate Bazunu because he’s the worst shot stopper we’ve ever had, and his playing out from the back doesn’t make up for the copious errors. 

McCarthy made some brilliant saves yesterday, then made a complete mess of playing a dangerous style of football that he shouldn’t be asked to play. 

Martin’s football philosophy is directly responsible for McCarthy panicking and throwing it into danger. 

 

Perfectly summed up. McCarthy is a GOALKEEPER whose main qualities is saving shots, not being a sweeper. 

 

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Right so even though it's come straight from the horse's mouth, you're still not having it. Okay then.

I'm not defending McCarthy at all. He's a very poor keeper and I agree it was a terrible decision to play that pass, and he must take a lot of the blame for it.

But - and this is the bit that you seem utterly incapable of grasping so far - why did he make that decision? For all the howlers he has made over the years with us, I don't recall "suicidal underarm pass to a marked player in his own penalty area" being in his repertoire before now. So what's changed?

The answer is glaringly obvious. It's symptomatic of the way he has been asked to play by the manager (who has even admitted as much) - so the manager himself must also shoulder a lot of the blame for asking AM to play in a way in which he is not competent.

It's really not rocket science.

I am so sorry for Alex McCarthy that being asked to play basic underarm passes out to a teammate twenty yards away is so far beyond his apparent abilities. I thought perhaps a PL keeper might be capable of that but clearly not.

However you try and dress it up though, last time we went down he was conceding three and four every game, against much worse teams than the one we played yesterday. If he just boots it up the field all the time, perhaps we concede four or five yesterday, who knows.

[Oldandtired]

I've come to the conclusion that Fabrice's real name is Richard.

Think about it...

[tdmickey3]

Just now, Oldandtired said:

I've come to the conclusion that Fabrice's real name is Richard.

Think about it...

Got my head around it

[East Kent Saint]

Watching Motd this morning I think it was the first time this season that Saints have looked good for a good part of what was shown . Salah's goal was so well taken unfortunately!

On another day we could of had another penalty as well.  Dibling looked brilliant but those defensive cock ups , I know Barca have the players who can receive the ball when being close marked and lay it off but we don't have that quality.

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I am so sorry for Alex McCarthy that being asked to play basic underarm passes out to a teammate twenty yards away is so far beyond his apparent abilities. I thought perhaps a PL keeper might be capable of that but clearly not.

However you try and dress it up though, last time we went down he was conceding three and four every game, against much worse teams than the one we played yesterday. If he just boots it up the field all the time, perhaps we concede four or five yesterday, who knows.

He played the ‘basic underarm pass’ perfectly. The point is that he should never have made that pass. What the hell was Fernandes supposed to do with it? He was on the edge of our crowded area facing his own goal and with three or four opponents up his backside.

He did the only thing possible and picked out Flynn Downes who then panicked and fluffed his clearance. He is probably most responsible for that goal but it was the system that spawned it.

As a general principle the further the ball is from your own goal the fewer chances you’re going to concede.

As for their second goal no matter how many times I watch it I cannot work out what McCarthy was thinking. KWP should have marked Salah better but closing down opposing wingers is not allowed in Martin’s playbook.

[Dman]

35 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

The difference with McCarthy going long was unlike the goal he had plenty of time to take a touch and find a player but was rushed into smacking long by a crowd that got increasingly agitated every time we completed a pass near our own goal. Martin also had a go at Sugawara for doing the same late on and THB was consistently having a go at others for doing it throughout the game. 

The difference is / was - when McCarthy tried to play it the managers way we conceeded. When he went against the managers instructions, we didn't. 

[Oldandtired]

Shifting the focus away from the defensive cockups for a moment the other thing about the style of play inflicted on the team is for the most part just how ponderous the buildup and transition is. As witnessed a couple of times yesterday we have the players who can shift the ball and transition quickly but in the main Russball doesn't allow for that.

 

Edited 25 November, 2024 by Oldandtired

[malcolm waldron]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

Different managers, different players, similar mistakes. Almost as if it’s not tactics based and more down to bad decision making.

I remember coming away from this one gutted at how we'd given 3 points up to a poor Watford side so easily.  Didn't Ralph start Smallbone who had a poor one if it's the game i remember?  Anyway, saying all that - watching the highlights makes me yearn for quicker, more incisive forward passing with crosses into the box again.

[CSA96]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

What has happened to Charlie Taylor? Why is he not getting a sniff? at 2-2, the locgial sub (was he even on the bench?) is to bring on CT, rather than Suga who is absolutely useless defensively. 

Hasn't been seen since the Leicester debacle when RM was showing his frustration about 'someone not doing their job' when we conceded from the corner at the death - so I assume that was CT he was on about.

Edited 25 November, 2024 by CSA96

[saintant]

10 hours ago, Dellyears said:

Killing me too, does anyone enjoy watching this style?
Its meant to be clever, sort of superior, but playing around at the back is not clever, its stupid.

It's not clever or superior and Martin clearly doesn't have anything approaching the skill set to coach it. He is trying to look smart but is making himself look ridiculously stupid. He will never be talented enough to teach a team to play this suicidal football because he clearly doesn't know how to - if he did it would be reflected in a continual improvement in our performances but we just see the same old errors leading to soft goals. His level is the Championship and he should accept that instead of this vanity project which is ruining our football team. 

[Scummer]

Slightly amusing that the first Liverpool goal actually came from Downes attempting to hoof it up the pitch and making a mess of it. If he hadn't panicked, the goal wouldn't have been scored (in spite of what came before).

[LiberalCommunist]

Monday sting still hanging around. But there was a few positives. Paul looks, not only interested but also useful. This could be crucial as we search for the magic 12 point target. 

[Totton Saint]

15 hours ago, Bakovnetski said:

He wasn't the first sub today. Improving all the time. 

he did a lot of running and tracking back.  He is a boy playing against grown men.

[Totton Saint]

18 hours ago, saintant said:

Because he hasn't got a clue.

I kept thinking why everyone was back in defence and no one up the pitch to recieve an out ball. It was inevitable we would concede goals under such a constant barrage.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Scummer said:

Slightly amusing that the first Liverpool goal actually came from Downes attempting to hoof it up the pitch and making a mess of it. If he hadn't panicked, the goal wouldn't have been scored (in spite of what came before).

And therein lies the problem.... Martin's way of playing inherently induces 'panic' in players which often results in them getting caught in two minds (i.e. what they would instinctively do versus what they have been told to do). 

Edited 25 November, 2024 by trousers

[lambtiss]

2 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

The difference with McCarthy going long was unlike the goal he had plenty of time to take a touch and find a player but was rushed into smacking long by a crowd that got increasingly agitated every time we completed a pass near our own goal. Martin also had a go at Sugawara for doing the same late on and THB was consistently having a go at others for doing it throughout the game. 

Are you paid to write this sycophantic crap?

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

4 minutes ago, lambtiss said:

Are you paid to write this sycophantic crap?

It’s about time the club ditched their ‘Fabrice29’ log-in, it’s doing more harm than good for club/fan relations.

[notnowcato]

13 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I’m sorry but at some point you have to be able ask Premier League footballers to do the absolute bare minimum basics correctly. We’re not asking him to stick a 70 yard diagonal ball on a sixpence, he f**ked up a 20 yard role out under no pressure at all.

F**k me, have our expectations of our own players really fallen so pathetically low that we consider it ridiculous of the manager to expect a PL goalkeeper to do the absolute basics that a Sunday league pub keeper can get right?

Spot on.  Awful decision to role the ball out at that point in the game.  As for the embarrassing equaliser, that again is very poor judgement. 

Can't say I expected anything less than a defeat from yesterday's game following the injuries to 2 of our best players this season but not to get anything from the game having been 2-1 up and the equaliser and penalty just about sums up many of our games.  

[trousers]

14 minutes ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

It’s about time the club ditched their ‘Fabrice29’ log-in, it’s doing more harm than good for club/fan relations.

Aw... don't spoil the fun.... It's quite an amusing spectator sport... especially when they end up resorting to the stock denials... In 3....2....1....  

Edited 25 November, 2024 by trousers

[trousers]

3 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

8x8 = 64

What's this 8x8 malarkey all about then? (apologies, I've not been on the forum as much as usual over the last few weeks so have probably missed a revelation or two!) 

[notnowcato]

3 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

No one blames bazunu for the short passing. It’s his only strength. 
 

People hate Bazunu because he’s the worst shot stopper we’ve ever had, and his playing out from the back doesn’t make up for the copious errors. 

McCarthy made some brilliant saves yesterday, then made a complete mess of playing a dangerous style of football that he shouldn’t be asked to play. 

Martin’s football philosophy is directly responsible for McCarthy panicking and throwing it into danger. 

 

Brilliant saves??  Really?  Average saves but then that wouldn't suit the crescendo of your post of everything being Martin's fault. 

[sadoldgit]

39 minutes ago, trousers said:

And therein lies the problem.... Martin's way of playing inherently induces 'panic' in players which often results in them getting caught in two minds (i.e. what they would instinctively do versus what they have been told to do). 

Whilst I agree with your basic point, I think, on this occasion, it was just very poor judgement from the keeper in dealing with a long ball over the top. Keane was probably being charitable when he suggested that McCarthy was rusty after a long period on the bench, but the bottom line is that he totally misjudged the ball and his position in relation to the goal.

[Gloucester Saint]

22 minutes ago, trousers said:

What's this 8x8 malarkey all about then? (apologies, I've not been on the forum as much as usual over the last few weeks so have probably missed a revelation or two!) 

Club’s PR partner. Other PR firms are available of course…

[RTW Saint]

Understandably a bit of a pile-on going on given the abysmal points tally and the fact we gave them three goals. I think Russ' time is probably up because this is a results business and the results have just not been good enough.

However, to add a bit of balance to this I'm going to voice a really unpopular opinion. I really enjoyed the game yesterday. Saints played well and were infuriating in equal measure and I was sickened by the Liverpool comeback but when we got in the car afterwards my 14-year-old nipper said to me that was the first time he had seen Saints lose but loved the game. I asked him why and he said that he just loves seeing us try to win against one of the best teams in Europe by trying to be better than them and, as he often does given we there on that dreadful night, compared it to Grimbsy at home in 2023.

I guess it is just a personality thing, but I would love for us to find our feet in the PL playing this way and then go on to compete properly over the next few years - the Brighton model is the yardstick I suppose. I don't care if Russ remains the manager, but I like the way we play. Does anybody else, or am I completely on my own?

[OldNick]

My take, the 2nd goal by Salah was from the same ball that Beto had that was offside. The player passing was not pressed and it allowed Salah to run in unchallenged, THB playing him onside (a constant problem)

When asked post match could he keep us up RM replied @of course I wouldn't be here otherwise' implying he could easily find a job elsewhere, he also had a sarky comment about the crowd cheering when AM went long saying that then Liverpool had the ball for 3 1/2minutes after. Well we played it short and the ball was in our net 10 seconds later.

Tall Paul was a breath of fresh air, having someone who gave their centre backs a tough afternoon, and if we played the ball long could at least hold the ball up.

Sadly he is now out for a month, and so back to having 2 shorties trying to vie with big strong defenders.

I noticed the body language between Tall Paul and Rm was not warm when he left the pitch.

He gave a lot of lift for the crowd and Im sure the Liverpool defence were relieved as his replacement did nothing  

[OldNick]

8 minutes ago, RTW Saint said:

but I like the way we play. Does anybody else, or am I completely on my own?

I liked the way we played yesterday, but that is so rare with the way RM style allows. If he would have played Tall Paul earlier i the season and been more proactive up the pitch Im sure most would be with him but his football is tedious and I'm sure all clubs know how to combat it as they play against the style regularly, against more skilful players.

[Whitey Grandad]

12 minutes ago, RTW Saint said:

I guess it is just a personality thing, but I would love for us to find our feet in the PL playing this way and then go on to compete properly over the next few years - the Brighton model is the yardstick I suppose. I don't care if Russ remains the manager, but I like the way we play. Does anybody else, or am I completely on my own?

If we keep playing this way we will not find our feet in the Premier League. They will be stuck in the mud at the bottom of a lower league.

Personally I hate the way that we play. When it doesn’t concede goals it’s boring as hell and when it doesn’t concede goals it’s infuriating.

[Gloucester Saint]

5 hours ago, RTW Saint said:

Understandably a bit of a pile-on going on given the abysmal points tally and the fact we gave them three goals. I think Russ' time is probably up because this is a results business and the results have just not been good enough.

However, to add a bit of balance to this I'm going to voice a really unpopular opinion. I really enjoyed the game yesterday. Saints played well and were infuriating in equal measure and I was sickened by the Liverpool comeback but when we got in the car afterwards my 14-year-old nipper said to me that was the first time he had seen Saints lose but loved the game. I asked him why and he said that he just loves seeing us try to win against one of the best teams in Europe by trying to be better than them and, as he often does given we there on that dreadful night, compared it to Grimbsy at home in 2023.

I guess it is just a personality thing, but I would love for us to find our feet in the PL playing this way and then go on to compete properly over the next few years - the Brighton model is the yardstick I suppose. I don't care if Russ remains the manager, but I like the way we play. Does anybody else, or am I completely on my own?

What you say isn’t unreasonable and were he to show the type of pragmatism he did in the play-offs I don’t think he would be in the position of peril he is. We all knew this season would be bloody difficult but we’ve thrown away 10+ points with blatant errors from his insisted style or self-confessed own tactical brain farts (Newcastle, Forest, Brentford, Bournemouth, especially that astonishingly idiot formation, Leicester, Ipswich, yesterday). Yesterday was similar to the opening day, we’ve also seen teams repeatedly score when the D isn’t covered late on. 

In any organisation as a senior manager, if your staff keep making the same basic mistakes, you won’t be allowed to keep putting it down to a philosophy for long, you’ll be out of the door. 

The other issue is how abject we’ve been against non-top 4 sides, conceding 3 goals in many of them. And his teams over a decent sample size by now concede 2-2.5 a game. No manager in present day football should be managing at the top level unless they’ve fixed that, and even those with a prestige playing career (Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney) don’t get slack on that, Beale just joined Gerrard in Saudi again because he struggles with that aspect. 

Russell has some of the makings but needs to re-do his badges and understand the fundamentals of defensive organisation and team structure before he takes a new job. Serie A would be a good place to learn and observe that post-SFC.

Edited 25 November, 2024 by Gloucester Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

If we keep playing this way we will not find our feet in the Premier League. They will be stuck in the mud at the bottom of a lower league.

Personally I hate the way that we play. When it doesn’t concede goals it’s boring as hell and when it [doesn’t] does concede goals it’s infuriating.

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

No one blames bazunu for the short passing. It’s his only strength. 
 

People hate Bazunu because he’s the worst shot stopper we’ve ever had, and his playing out from the back doesn’t make up for the copious errors. 

McCarthy made some brilliant saves yesterday, then made a complete mess of playing a dangerous style of football that he shouldn’t be asked to play. 

Martin’s football philosophy is directly responsible for McCarthy panicking and throwing it into danger. 

 

Spot on. 
 

Baz wouldn’t have conceded the first yesterday, but we’d have been 3 down by then had he been in nets. 
 

We wouldnt have got promoted had Baz not got injured either. 
 

 

[trousers]

51 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Whilst I agree with your basic point, I think, on this occasion, it was just very poor judgement from the keeper in dealing with a long ball over the top

Agree with that on the second goal, but my post was in response to a comment on the first goal...

[trousers]

38 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Club’s PR partner. Other PR firms are available of course…

Ah... gotcha... say no more... 

[trousers]

36 minutes ago, RTW Saint said:

when we got in the car afterwards my 14-year-old nipper said to me that was the first time he had seen Saints lose but loved the game. I asked him why and he said that he just loves seeing us try to win against one of the best teams in Europe by trying to be better than them

Which is all well and good, but as others have pointed out, one match we're raising our game against one of the best sides, and the next match we're lackluster against a side that we should be competitive with. If we put in as much effort into beating the lower sides as we did the better sides, then I think you'd get more people agreeing with you re: the merits of 'possession-based football'...

Edited 25 November, 2024 by trousers

[OldNick]

Just now, trousers said:

Which is all well and good, but as others have pointed out, one match we're raising our game against the best sides, and the next match we're lackluster against the sides we should be competitive with. If we put in as much effort into beating the lower sides as we did the better sides, then I think you'd get more people agreeing with you re: the merits of 'possession-based football'...

Once TP went off we went back to normal hardly getting in their half (I know we did score) They pushed right up on us and as we dont play through balls there compressed the play. 3 players on Tyler as well

[RTW Saint]

26 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

What you say isn’t unreasonable and were he to show the type of pragmatism he did in the play-offs I don’t think he would be in the position of peril he is. We all knew this season would be bloody difficult but we’ve thrown away 10+ points with blatant errors from his insisted style or self-confessed own tactical brain farts (Newcastle, Forest, Brentford, Bournemouth, especially that astonishingly idiot formation, Leicester, Ipswich, yesterday). Yesterday was similar to the opening day, we’ve also seen teams repeatedly score when the D isn’t covered late on. 

In any organisation as a senior manager, if you’re staff keep making the same basic mistakes, you won’t be allowed to keep putting it down to a philosophy for long, you’ll be out of the door. 

The other issue is how abject we’ve been against non-top 4 sides, conceding 3 goals in many of them. And his teams over a decent sample size by now concede 2-2.5 a game. No manager in present day football should be managing at the top level unless they’ve fixed that, and even those with a prestige playing career (Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney) get slack on that, Beale just joined Gerrard in Saudi again because he struggles with that aspect. 

Russell has some of the makings but needs to re-do his badges and understand the fundamentals of defensive organisation and team structure before he takes a new job. Serie A would be a good place to learn and observe that post-SFC.

Some good observations there @Gloucester Saint. That is a really important point about the ineffectiveness against our relegation rivals - there are crucial points that have been allowed to be squandered through really poor decision making.

Also, I can't argue with your analogy to 'real-world' business - make a mistake once its on the staff member themselves, make it more than once and it has to be on the senior manager. 

It does feel to me that we're close to breaking through to the level required to start taking points more regularly. However, I completely agree that conceding 2+ per game simply has to be reduced to 1-1.5 otherwise we have no chance. Losing Ramsdale and Bednarek will not help though so that feels a long way off right now 😨

[saintant]

1 hour ago, RTW Saint said:

Understandably a bit of a pile-on going on given the abysmal points tally and the fact we gave them three goals. I think Russ' time is probably up because this is a results business and the results have just not been good enough.

However, to add a bit of balance to this I'm going to voice a really unpopular opinion. I really enjoyed the game yesterday. Saints played well and were infuriating in equal measure and I was sickened by the Liverpool comeback but when we got in the car afterwards my 14-year-old nipper said to me that was the first time he had seen Saints lose but loved the game. I asked him why and he said that he just loves seeing us try to win against one of the best teams in Europe by trying to be better than them and, as he often does given we there on that dreadful night, compared it to Grimbsy at home in 2023.

I guess it is just a personality thing, but I would love for us to find our feet in the PL playing this way and then go on to compete properly over the next few years - the Brighton model is the yardstick I suppose. I don't care if Russ remains the manager, but I like the way we play. Does anybody else, or am I completely on my own?

I kind of get where you are coming from but yesterday was the exception rather than the norm. Most of our play this season has been boring and tedious and I think Tall Paul helped add a different dimension yesterday. Why RM ignored him last season and for most of this is something only he can answer but he seems to have these stubborn traits which cloud his judgement. I and many others on here believe we have a team capable of far more than RM's methods are getting out of them but he has admitted time and again that he has no intention of changing. A good manager will weigh up his options and set up a team to get the maximum out of them. There is no better feeling in football than to see your team go out and put on a performance to be proud of and, having supported the club for 60 years, I've seen plenty of games where we punched way above our weight and used what we had to maximum effect thanks to good management. I'm sorry to say I don't think those sort of performances will happen under RM because he is too set in his one way of playing which, clearly to  most of us, doesn't work. We have always been a team that concedes plenty of goals but, on the flip side, we've always been capable of creating and scoring plenty ourselves by getting the ball forward quick and also pressing high up the pitch. I'd love to see those days return but it won't happen under the current manager and his coaches who fall well short of what is needed.

[notnowcato]

5 minutes ago, saintant said:

I kind of get where you are coming from but yesterday was the exception rather than the norm. Most of our play this season has been boring and tedious and I think Tall Paul helped add a different dimension yesterday. Why RM ignored him last season and for most of this is something only he can answer but he seems to have these stubborn traits which cloud his judgement.

Maybe TP didn’t want to play in the Championship. 

[malcolm waldron]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

What you say isn’t unreasonable and were he to show the type of pragmatism he did in the play-offs I don’t think he would be in the position of peril he is. We all knew this season would be bloody difficult but we’ve thrown away 10+ points with blatant errors from his insisted style or self-confessed own tactical brain farts (Newcastle, Forest, Brentford, Bournemouth, especially that astonishingly idiot formation, Leicester, Ipswich, yesterday). Yesterday was similar to the opening day, we’ve also seen teams repeatedly score when the D isn’t covered late on. 

In any organisation as a senior manager, if you’re staff keep making the same basic mistakes, you won’t be allowed to keep putting it down to a philosophy for long, you’ll be out of the door. 

The other issue is how abject we’ve been against non-top 4 sides, conceding 3 goals in many of them. And his teams over a decent sample size by now concede 2-2.5 a game. No manager in present day football should be managing at the top level unless they’ve fixed that, and even those with a prestige playing career (Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney) get slack on that, Beale just joined Gerrard in Saudi again because he struggles with that aspect. 

Russell has some of the makings but needs to re-do his badges and understand the fundamentals of defensive organisation and team structure before he takes a new job. Serie A would be a good place to learn and observe that post-SFC.

Thank you - couldn't agree more with this.  Defensively we're a mess - especially given what 8(?) goals conceded from trying to play out from the 6 yard box - and sadly we haven't got a potent enough strike-force to compensate.  All very well if we're winning 4-3 and losing by the same, or drawing 3-3 - but we're not.  And therein lies the biggest problem I have with what we're trying to do - it's massively high risk with the quality we have, and there doesn't appear to be a huge upside because we don't score many.  From the second goal yesterday and the Everton winner we look a threat on the counter - so should we not play to our strengths rather than exaggerate our weaknesses?