Saints 2-3 Liverpool - Match Thread

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That basically is my point. When people were debating Bazunu vs McC last season the pro McC argument could basically be summed up as, "I don’t care about distribution, I want a keeper to do their job by saving shots FFS!" Well today (and Newcastle) are good examples of the distribution that apparently nobody cares about, except now they do care and apparently it’s the managers fault.

I don’t care how the manager wants him to play, there’s no manager on earth who would want McC to play the ball out to Fernandes, right there at that moment. I used to play in goal for a 5-a-side team and even I’d have known not to make that pass.

Mistakes from McCarthy, Downes and Sugawara have cost us a result today in a game where we played well. Even if you insist that first goal was totally, 100% Russ’ fault and the keeper played exactly how he wanted, we were 2-1 up after 65 minutes against the best team in the country. So how does that work, the team should have just been 2-0 up against Liverpool by default, but Russ ruined it?

You might have a point if Baz could save shots, but he doesn’t.
 

Mcarthy actually did reasonably well at saving a few shots at him, he fucked up with the stuff we know he’s shit at, amplified by the fact it was the best team in the country we were playing who took advantage. 
 

we know what McCarthy can’t do, so why doe the manager insist he does it?

[Saint Billy]

I suspect that all our future opposition is looking forward to playing us , not just because of the probable win but also with the extra time off as there is no need what so ever to analyse videos of our previous games as nothing ever fekin changes. What makes it worse is that RM announces it before and after every fekin game.

Most of our fanbase knew it would be like this this season apart from the few who are captivated by RM's win celebrations and his nice guy persona , but what the hell is SR playing at allowing this to happen, their heads must be so deep in the sand that Aussies are using them as volley balls on bondi beach.

[saintant]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That basically is my point. When people were debating Bazunu vs McC last season the pro McC argument could basically be summed up as, "I don’t care about distribution, I want a keeper to do their job by saving shots FFS!" Well today (and Newcastle) are good examples of the distribution that apparently nobody cares about, except now they do care and apparently it’s the managers fault.

I don’t care how the manager wants him to play, there’s no manager on earth who would want McC to play the ball out to Fernandes, right there at that moment. I used to play in goal for a 5-a-side team and even I’d have known not to make that pass.

Mistakes from McCarthy, Downes and Sugawara have cost us a result today in a game where we played well. Even if you insist that first goal was totally, 100% Russ’ fault and the keeper played exactly how he wanted, we were 2-1 up after 65 minutes against the best team in the country. So how does that work, the team should have just been 2-0 up against Liverpool by default, but Russ ruined it?

We are continually giving soft goals away by trying to play suicide football from our own six yard box and this tactic is 100% on RM. I couldn't give a monkeys which individual player makes the error leading to a goal because the root cause is with RM and his possession football. This is what most fans are up in arms about. Mistakes will be made and some will lead to goals being conceded but what we are trying to do under Martin is what lemmings do when they see the edge of a cliff.

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

You might have a point if Baz could save shots, but he doesn’t.
 

Mcarthy actually did reasonably well at saving a few shots at him, he fucked up with the stuff we know he’s shit at, amplified by the fact it was the best team in the country we were playing who took advantage. 
 

we know what McCarthy can’t do, so why doe the manager insist he does it?

My point wasn’t about Bazunu, it was about the fact that last season people insisted that they didn’t care about distribution and now suddenly they do when the keeper can’t do it.

The fact that McCarthy’s distribution is poor doesn’t imply that it’ll somehow better if he’s asked to go long all the time. All that’ll happen is the ball comes back his way 15 seconds later and Liverpool just dominate the whole game.

[Harry_SFC]

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

We are continually giving soft goals away by trying to play suicide football from our own six yard box and this tactic is 100% on RM. I couldn't give a monkeys which individual player makes the error leading to a goal because the root cause is with RM and his possession football. This is what most fans are up in arms about. Mistakes will be made and some will lead to goals being conceded but what we are trying to do under Martin is what lemmings do when they see the edge of a cliff.

KWP, Downes, McCarthy, THB, Bednarek, Stephens, Sugawara. They've all made mistakes leading to goals this season. Not necessarily because they are bad players but because they are put under so much stress due to the style of play. Absolutely no way we would be making this many errors with a a half normal manager in charge. 

[Football Special]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

You might have a point if Baz could save shots, but he doesn’t.
 

Mcarthy actually did reasonably well at saving a few shots at him, he fucked up with the stuff we know he’s shit at, amplified by the fact it was the best team in the country we were playing who took advantage. 
 

we know what McCarthy can’t do, so why doe the manager insist he does it?

EXACTLY 

some of McCarthys saves were decent and kept us in the game, just stop asking him to play it around at the back, he's not bad for a back up keeper 

[Oldandtired]

The blessed Aaron has had a few near misses trying Russballsup inside the box too this season

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

My point wasn’t about Bazunu, it was about the fact that last season people insisted that they didn’t care about distribution and now suddenly they do when the keeper can’t do it.

The fact that McCarthy’s distribution is poor doesn’t imply that it’ll somehow better if he’s asked to go long all the time. All that’ll happen is the ball comes back his way 15 seconds later and Liverpool just dominate the whole game.

And my point is why is a goalkeeper who is shite on the ball being asked to do what he isn’t capable of doing. 
 

I don’t think people are surprised McArthy is fucking up, but why he is being set up to fail but having the do it?

Edited 24 November, 2024 by Turkish

[Lighthouse]

Just now, Turkish said:

And my point is why is a goalkeeper who is shite on the ball being asked to do what he isn’t capable of doing. 

Because when the ball comes back to him he can’t just pick it up and hold on to it for the next 87 minutes, that’s against the rules.

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Harry_SFC said:

KWP, Downes, McCarthy, THB, Bednarek, Stephens, Sugawara. They've all made mistakes leading to goals this season. Not necessarily because they are bad players but because they are put under so much stress due to the style of play. Absolutely no way we would be making this many errors with a a half normal manager in charge. 

Agree. Sometimes you can clearly see a player thinking 'I should be going long here and clearing the danger' but they've all been brainwashed so they dither about looking for a pass that is either not there or shouldn't be attempted and, by then, the opponents have the sniff of blood in their nostrils and are all over us like a pack of hyenas.

[Turkish]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

Because when the ball comes back to him he can’t just pick it up and hold on to it for the next 87 minutes, that’s against the rules.

So the only other option is to tap it five yards forward or sideways?

it’s amazing how were the worst team in the country by a mile for self inflicted goals yet some people still defend it 

[Football Special]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

My point wasn’t about Bazunu, it was about the fact that last season people insisted that they didn’t care about distribution and now suddenly they do when the keeper can’t do it.

The fact that McCarthy’s distribution is poor doesn’t imply that it’ll somehow better if he’s asked to go long all the time. All that’ll happen is the ball comes back his way 15 seconds later and Liverpool just dominate the whole game.

All that happens is we don't gift the ball directly to an opponent in front of our goal 

Stop putting players under pressure where they are not good enough, asking.for trouble 

[rallyboy]

Some Liverpool fans still frothing at the mouth about Dibling being outside the box who don't realise they are in reality campaigning for a last man red card - which perhaps might have suited us better for the rest of the game.

C'est la vie.

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, Football Special said:

All that happens is we don't gift the ball directly to an opponent in front of our goal 

Stop putting players under pressure where they are not good enough, asking.for trouble 

Like I said, if he goes long then nine times out of ten it ends up back on the edge of our box 15 seconds and 5 Liverpool passes later. We end up losing 3-0 whilst barely getting out of our own half. McCarthy wasn’t being asked to play total football today, he made a brainless throw out to a player surrounded by Liverpool attackers that most Sunday league players would have known better than. Just because he is being told to play it out from the back, doesn’t mean he should be doing that. 

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Like I said, if he goes long then nine times out of ten it ends up back on the edge of our box 15 seconds and 5 Liverpool passes later. We end up losing 3-0 whilst barely getting out of our own half. McCarthy wasn’t being asked to play total football today, he made a brainless throw out to a player surrounded by Liverpool attackers that most Sunday league players would have known better than. Just because he is being told to play it out from the back, doesn’t mean he should be doing that. 

But throwing the ball out like that is a direct consequence of what he has been told and trained to do.

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

But throwing the ball out like that is a direct consequence of what he has been told and trained to do.

I’m sorry but at some point you have to be able ask Premier League footballers to do the absolute bare minimum basics correctly. We’re not asking him to stick a 70 yard diagonal ball on a sixpence, he f**ked up a 20 yard role out under no pressure at all.

F**k me, have our expectations of our own players really fallen so pathetically low that we consider it ridiculous of the manager to expect a PL goalkeeper to do the absolute basics that a Sunday league pub keeper can get right?

[Andy Hill]

Serious question - where is our next point going to come from ?? Could easily still be 4 pts at Xmas which would at least put us in the record books.

[Turkish]

27 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Like I said, if he goes long then nine times out of ten it ends up back on the edge of our box 15 seconds and 5 Liverpool passes later. We end up losing 3-0 whilst barely getting out of our own half. McCarthy wasn’t being asked to play total football today, he made a brainless throw out to a player surrounded by Liverpool attackers that most Sunday league players would have known better than. Just because he is being told to play it out from the back, doesn’t mean he should be doing that. 

Before today weve conceded seven goal by fucking about with it, add today that’s eight. We are the worst in the country for it so what you’re saying about going long and it ending up in the back of the net anyway is quite simply a load of bollocks. 

[Harry_SFC]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Before today weve conceded seven goal by fucking about with it, add today that’s eight. We are the worst in the country for it so what you’re saying about going long and it ending up in the back of the net anyway is quite simply a load of bollocks. 

Exactly. If you're going to lose the ball, which we do regularly, then where is best to lose it. In their half or infront of our own goal? Tough one that. 

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’m sorry but at some point you have to be able ask Premier League footballers to do the absolute bare minimum basics correctly. We’re not asking him to stick a 70 yard diagonal ball on a sixpence, he f**ked up a 20 yard role out under no pressure at all.

F**k me, have our expectations of our own players really fallen so pathetically low that we consider it ridiculous of the manager to expect a PL goalkeeper to do the absolute basics that a Sunday league pub keeper can get right?

The ball went exactly where it was supposed to. And that’s the problem. That pass should never have been made.

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

The ball went exactly where it was supposed to. And that’s the problem. That pass should never have been made.

Yes, correct. I know that pass shouldn’t have been made, so do you, so does every fan in the stadium. So don’t you think it’s reasonable for our manager to expect a PL goalkeeper not to make it? Maybe take a breather for a few seconds and look for a better pass?

[Gloucester Saint]

14 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’m sorry but at some point you have to be able ask Premier League footballers to do the absolute bare minimum basics correctly. We’re not asking him to stick a 70 yard diagonal ball on a sixpence, he f**ked up a 20 yard role out under no pressure at all.

F**k me, have our expectations of our own players really fallen so pathetically low that we consider it ridiculous of the manager to expect a PL goalkeeper to do the absolute basics that a Sunday league pub keeper can get right?

Easy - a decent, basic manager gets the best out of his/her staff and resources budget. It was his choice to renew Alex and well known at the club that working with his feet is not his strength so tell him to do what is comfortable. Which it clear it out longer.

Andrew Caddick the very tall former England quick used to struggle being instructed to bowl fuller until Fletcher and Hussain took over. They wrote on the team board before games ‘Caddick bowl Caddick length’. 

Funnily enough, the final years of his Test cricket were stacked with wickets in tandem with Gough.

Edited 24 November, 2024 by Gloucester Saint

[Andrew Watson]

We gifted them all 3 goals and for all their dominance,we won the game for them. Macarthy seems to be terrified of not carrying out Martins instructions out to the letter,what a total and utter waste of time expecting these  f--k ups to end any time soon. As for the clueless muppets running the club,why do you not just sell up,you and the manager have done enough damage to our club. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[trousers]

13 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes, correct. I know that pass shouldn’t have been made, so do you, so does every fan in the stadium. So don’t you think it’s reasonable for our manager to expect a PL goalkeeper not to make it? Maybe take a breather for a few seconds and look for a better pass?

Russell Martin just said on MotD that he takes the blame for the first goal because of the way he asks his players to play... 

[Whitey Grandad]

23 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes, correct. I know that pass shouldn’t have been made, so do you, so does every fan in the stadium. So don’t you think it’s reasonable for our manager to expect a PL goalkeeper not to make it? Maybe take a breather for a few seconds and look for a better pass?

No, because that is the way that they have been trained.

[Andrew Watson]

Not trained Whitey,totally brainwashed to play this ludicrous,tippy tappy bollocks.

[Badger]

5 minutes ago, trousers said:

Russell Martin just said on MotD that he takes the blame for the first goal because of the way he asks his players to play... 

He gave a smile when asked if their first goal 'encapsulated our season', and denied that it did. Then went on to say players working hard and are so brave. "If they carry on like that they'll be alright ". Does he seriously believe that shit ?

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, Andrew Watson said:

Not trained Whitey,totally brainwashed to play this ludicrous,tippy tappy bollocks.

I was being polite 🤨

[S-Clarke]

We didn't play badly at all, as everyone has pretty much concluded - but I don't give a shit really, because we still lost - again. The fact we're performing like this against Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool etc is making it even worse for me. These are irrelevant performances which just fluff up the ego of some, whilst not helping us at all.

The games that matter are Wolves, Ipswich, Leicester etc and we threw them all in the bin - so I find it pretty much impossible to come away feeling proud or anything like that. It's just how you'd expect a plucky lower league team to play against a big side in their 'big day'.

This team is killing me really. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Andy Hill said:

Serious question - where is our next point going to come from ?

Noone can really even guess as next season's EFL fixtures lists haven't come out.

[Gloucester Saint]

41 minutes ago, trousers said:

Russell Martin just said on MotD that he takes the blame for the first goal because of the way he asks his players to play... 

Didn’t he say similar after Alex’s playing out blooper opening day as well?

[Dellyears]

Killing me too, does anyone enjoy watching this style?
Its meant to be clever, sort of superior, but playing around at the back is not clever, its stupid.

[Badger]

6 minutes ago, Dellyears said:

Killing me too, does anyone enjoy watching this style?
Its meant to be clever, sort of superior, but playing around at the back is not clever, its stupid.

As we were told by Swansea fans. 

[Toussaint]

50 minutes ago, trousers said:

Russell Martin just said on MotD that he takes the blame for the first goal because of the way he asks his players to play... 

yeah , but no, but yeah, but…

[sadoldgit]

Liverpool were below par today but quality teams find a way of winning. Poor teams find a way of losing. Our tactics don’t help, but we really aren’t good enough in this league. The second and third goals were down to schoolboy errors (how many have we seen this season?) whereas the first was down to tactics. We can put together some passages of play which are quality, the second goal being an example, but over 90 plus minutes we rarely look like we anything other than a Championship side. We could bring in a coach who might be able to keep the goals conceded down, but we really don’t have the quality throughout the squad to compete at this level at the moment.

[sadoldgit]

15 minutes ago, Dellyears said:

Killing me too, does anyone enjoy watching this style?
Its meant to be clever, sort of superior, but playing around at the back is not clever, its stupid.

I don’t disagree but many teams have been caught out trying to play out from the back, not just us. We just get caught out much more often it seems.

[Saint Fan CaM]

22 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t disagree but many teams have been caught out trying to play out from the back, not just us. We just get caught out much more often it seems.

I keep on trying to emphasise that it’s NOT the playing out from the back exactly - it’s the next phase where instead of moving the ball forward there is an insistence to hold the ball and pass it backwards or sideways with no outlet and oppo players pressing hard high into our half. If Russ and his coaches had any sense they’d figure out a way of adapting the system to get players running in behind to stretch the defence. But it rarely happens. It can’t be that hard to instruct the players how NOT to take too many risks - red flags perhaps…e.g. don’t fanny around at the back if there are more than 4 oppo players in our half (or similar).

Only today did we see what a great passage of play can look like when the ball is moved forward at pace to players that can run and fight (Dibling, TP, Fernandes and Arma). That’s what these players are capable of - Russ is not helping them in the slightest with his dogmatic approach.

Edited 25 November, 2024 by Saint Fan CaM
Clarity

[austsaint]

7 hours ago, trousers said:

Was keeping one eye on the match whilst doing an all day decorating stint (living the dream...) so haven't read anyone else's reactions yet, but if that game doesn't finally lay to rest the Saintsweb contrarian fallacy that a higher calibre manager couldn't get a better tune out of these players then I'm Fanny Craddock. 

If the likes of Koeman or Pochettino were in the home dugout with those same players against an off-the-boil Liverpool side then we get something out of the game. Playing Russ Martin's tactics, we don't. It really is as simple as that to my mind. 

If you had downed your tools and put your ladder away earlier Trousers, you’d be doubling down on your conclusion.    The players are good enough to be in a better position on the table.  The “seen it before” embarrassment of McCarthy’s rolled short pass (clearly under instructions) to an under pressure Fernandes  was clear evidence of the destruction Martin’s dogmatic instruction has foisted on the Club.   A better manager ; a different manager would immediately remove this absurd practice.   

 

[BARCELONASAINT]

This is the first season in well over 50 years that i have pretty much stopped watching Saints. I've watched maybe 4 games this season and that was enough to convince me its not worth ruining my weekends by watching Saints. I didn't watch the game yesterday and when i looked at the final score i didn't feel anything, that's pretty much what Saints have done to me!

[AlexLaw76]

7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Like I said, if he goes long then nine times out of ten it ends up back on the edge of our box 15 seconds and 5 Liverpool passes later. We end up losing 3-0 whilst barely getting out of our own half. McCarthy wasn’t being asked to play total football today, he made a brainless throw out to a player surrounded by Liverpool attackers that most Sunday league players would have known better than. Just because he is being told to play it out from the back, doesn’t mean he should be doing that. 

He never made a brainless throw, he did what the manger asked him to do

source: the manager 

Edited 25 November, 2024 by AlexLaw76

[david in sweden]

For all the fine talk and compliments from other managers,  we are still bottom of the table and still

gifting goals with suicide passes at the back, but predictably it seems that RM still doesn't have a Plan B,

but simply tries moving players around to other positions in the hope of changing things. 

e.g. Manning to a midfield role....... and Fraser to full back (!)  

 

Clearly Tyler Dibling still hasn't learned about " Russball "  properly yet .  As soon as he gets possession, he  

turns and runs for goal ....instead of passing the ball back to a defender.  Sadly, the lad still has a lot to learn. 

[Charlie Wayman]

Honestly I don't know how the bloke sleeps at night.

[Sheaf Saint]

8 hours ago, trousers said:

Russell Martin just said on MotD that he takes the blame for the first goal because of the way he asks his players to play... 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

47 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Honestly I don't know how the bloke sleeps at night.

I think being next to Lucy Pinder would help

[Sheaf Saint]

10 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

That basically is my point. When people were debating Bazunu vs McC last season the pro McC argument could basically be summed up as, "I don’t care about distribution, I want a keeper to do their job by saving shots FFS!" Well today (and Newcastle) are good examples of the distribution that apparently nobody cares about, except now they do care and apparently it’s the managers fault.

I don’t care how the manager wants him to play, there’s no manager on earth who would want McC to play the ball out to Fernandes, right there at that moment. I used to play in goal for a 5-a-side team and even I’d have known not to make that pass.

Mistakes from McCarthy, Downes and Sugawara have cost us a result today in a game where we played well. Even if you insist that first goal was totally, 100% Russ’ fault and the keeper played exactly how he wanted, we were 2-1 up after 65 minutes against the best team in the country. So how does that work, the team should have just been 2-0 up against Liverpool by default, but Russ ruined it?

 

 

[obelisk]

All Martin's teams concede bucket loads of goals. His Saints team last season did and this one does too. There's a bit of a theme and in this league it's almost impossible to score enough to compensate for his leaky RussBall.

As we saw yesterday there are players in the Saints squad who could make a decent fist of staying in the EPL, just so long as they weren't required to play suicide football by the crazy manager. It's time to show him the door and at least give the rest of the season a go.

[Gloucester Saint]

22 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I think being next to Lucy Pinder would help

In some ways yes, in other ways less so…

A lot more exciting that the drab football his teams play, that’s for sure 

[Gloucester Saint]

22 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

 

 

Lighthouse will need a JCB with the hole he’s digging for himself.

[tdmickey3]

Just now, Gloucester Saint said:

In some ways yes, in other ways less so…

A lot more exciting that the drab football his teams play, that’s for sure 

Sleeping with Elephant man would be more exciting that his crap

 

[Fabrice29]

7 hours ago, austsaint said:

If you had downed your tools and put your ladder away earlier Trousers, you’d be doubling down on your conclusion.    The players are good enough to be in a better position on the table.  The “seen it before” embarrassment of McCarthy’s rolled short pass (clearly under instructions) to an under pressure Fernandes  was clear evidence of the destruction Martin’s dogmatic instruction has foisted on the Club.   A better manager ; a different manager would immediately remove this absurd practice.   

 

Different managers, different players, similar mistakes. Almost as if it’s not tactics based and more down to bad decision making.