Saints playing as badly as they ever have

[Andrew Watson]

Having switched off the tv last night after Stokes equaliser [ I think I did well to watch for that long ], I have come to the conclusion that this is the worst team and the worst football the club have played in many a year. The turgid dross last night against Stoke City reserves was utterly depressing and even worse than the end of Ralphs tenure and the hoofball style of Jones. I had a season ticket between 2009/10 and 2019/2020 and saw some pretty poor performances and plenty of defeats,but last night really took the biscuit. This manager has turned the promising players we do have into jibbering wrecks for having to play this tippy tappy bollocks,especially across the back line.

Everton of all teams will give us the run around on saturday even with limited possession and we will be further down the road to a record premiership points low. I really pity those who paid out for season tickets [ I live in Cornwall luckily and have an excuse not to waste my money any more ] including 4 of my mates who have had a gutful already. Plenty more I could say but the likes of the knowledgable Derry and others have articulated things very well.

[imadirtyurchin]

I don’t know if I would go that far that its the worst football by Saints ever - I’ve been supporting them over 30 odd years now and I’ve witnessed some shockers - even under good managers for us - losing (and travelling) to Rotherham mid-week away in the cup 1 - 0 and villa away one year without a shot the whole game to name two amongst many. The nadir loss of Forest at home under jones a particular lowlight - but it’s very very similar to Pelegrino’s borefests. Few goals/goal threat and turgid play. Even fewer clean sheets. Just a complete lack of excitement and conviction that it will ever change and we might get a convincing win. I’m no longer even dying from hope….

[the colonel]

Always a Saint through good n bad!!!!

[Give it to Ron]

There have been some awful games like at Dell 0-3 Bolton a game under Whisky George where we had 5 players playing on wrong side to natural foot lost to Huddersfield.

It’s all my fault I found Claude’s football boring but this turgid “U” style football gets me so angry and frustrated. 

It’s not walking football I play that and our over 70’s academy pass it quicker!

Edited 31 October, 2024 by Give it to Ron

[HarvSFC]

It played out like a lot of last season. Good first half, poor second half, but grind out the win due to having better players. 

We were slightly fortunate to get promoted, although that play-off run was fantastic.

However, nothing's being learnt. Football's not about being predictable and struggling to put any danger on the opposition because by the time we've got up the pitch, the opponent's half is congested and easily able to mark our players out of the game. The fact Cameron Archer only had six touches is telling. He brings nothing playing with his back to goal. He needs to be released quickly, like the two chances he got against Arsenal and Manchester City. He scored one of those, but really he isn't getting enough of those chances.

We need to exploit space more. When we win the ball back (although we're also awful to watch without the ball) we need to take advantage of any gaps left by the opposition. I don't know why a football manager wouldn't want that.

[Colinjb]

10 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

It’s all my fault I found Claude’s football boring but this turgid “U” style football gets me so angry and frustrated. 

How spoilt we were then, having a manager who could set up a team to defend and do the basics correctly.

Let's face it, we havn't been able to do that since, so that's seven years and counting.

Edited 31 October, 2024 by Colinjb

[LiberalCommunist]

Craving boring now. Just a tiny bit of organisation. Knowing we are going to concede after the 90 min mark is soul destroying. RMs dogmatic approach is anything but fun. 

[Oldandtired]

I would have to subscribe to that. 65+ years in and still counting thankfully, it is the most boring, inept style of football as I've ever seen at St. Mary's or at the Dell. I have to mention also in my opinion we have  one of the most arrogant and self-serving managers we've ever had, in my opinion the club doesn't matter to him,the only things that seem to matter are his opinions and his style of football which patently aren't working at the moment.

 

 

[beatlesaint]

I wouldn't say its as bad as its ever been, its probably the most boring and one dimensional tho, as well as the most frustrating as I honestly believe with the correct tactics and subs changes we would have more points than now.

Edited 31 October, 2024 by beatlesaint

[Saint_Jonny]

I've seen Saints lose, in person, at Rochdale, Carlisle and Tranmere. I've seen us lose 9-0. I've seen us relegated to league one with a whimper. 

Yeah we're pretty shit at Premier League level at the moment, but we've been in most of the games and should have taken more points. To say this is "the worst we've ever been" is sensationalist bullshit. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

I’m not sure this is the worse ever football I’ve seen from Saints, but it runs close. I think the dichotomy is that there are periods when we can look good, but it’s not clear whether that’s to do with basic raw player talent or as a result of the system. The key issue of course is that despite glimpses of good football and indeed some nice goals, it’s not nearly enough to win a game of football. 

The team is crying out for (a) better defensive coaching, (b) better final third idea's and (c) a system that plays to the strengths of a primary first team that only sees changes enforced by injury to get a modicum of consistency and understanding across the various zones. At the moment the players look like strangers sometimes. While he undoubtedly has the ear of influential players such as Capt’n Jack, Russ doesn’t seem to able to improve the team week after week.

[tdmickey3]

Yep, how we play is virtually pointless and is likely to remain so

[Saint86]

4 hours ago, Saint_Jonny said:

I've seen Saints lose, in person, at Rochdale, Carlisle and Tranmere. I've seen us lose 9-0. I've seen us relegated to league one with a whimper. 

Yeah we're pretty shit at Premier League level at the moment, but we've been in most of the games and should have taken more points. To say this is "the worst we've ever been" is sensationalist bullshit. 

100% this.

[Lighthouse]

5 hours ago, Saint_Jonny said:

I've seen Saints lose, in person, at Rochdale, Carlisle and Tranmere. I've seen us lose 9-0. I've seen us relegated to league one with a whimper. 

Yeah we're pretty shit at Premier League level at the moment, but we've been in most of the games and should have taken more points. To say this is "the worst we've ever been" is sensationalist bullshit. 

Agree, there has been much worse football on display than this in the past. If anything the current season reminds me of Poortvliet’s tenure, trying to play decent and entertaining football but we just don’t have very good players. Worse recent eras than this include MoPe, Jones, Selles and Puel, post cup final, IMO.

[Gingeletiss]

The trouble with this turgid style he has inflicted upon us, is that there is no end result. It seems, he is happy not to score, as long as his possession stats look good. It is boring beyond belief, and those saying give in more time, are delusional. It is a terrible style of football.

[die Mannyschaft]

As an older fans with 40 plus years of watching Saints I don't class possession football as real football. Tge tactic is the opposite of the purpose of having a goal and strikers. It's utterly boring and negative football. The chips before the match is more exciting. The lack of shots also. But a lot of people like this type of dross, and it's actually coached at all levels. Winchester City FC is much more entertaining at a fraction of the cost. With VAR I'm getting completely bored at St Mary's. Even Brandfoot got more wins and goals.

[Andrew Watson]

Glad some of you agree and I have been watching since 1963. Saint- Jonny and Saint86,you are obviously entertained by the rubbish on view and entitled to your opinions,but to call the headline - sensationlist bullshit is over the top . We should have more points,but the managers intransigence and inability to change tactics and the slowness of play will see us relegated with a record low points total. 

[Charlie Wayman]

By your measure Andrew, things can only get better so that's something to look forward to surely?

Every cloud has a silver lining, storms pass, winter ends then life springs forth all over again.

Edited 31 October, 2024 by Charlie Wayman

[Maggie May]

Worst I’ve ever seen was under Poortvliet.

[stknowle]

We’ve been literally a lot worse - not that long ago we got relegated to League 1 don’t forget - but in terms of how out of our depth we are for the league we are trying to operate in things have never been worse. Over the years I’ve got less bothered about how we perform and how we eventually end up. When we went down the season before last it was like ‘oh well, it is what it is’ whereas in 2005 I was utterly gutted. I would take going down again with a similar effort and points total as either of those 2 seasons with a Gallic shrug of the shoulders but the difference this time is the very real spectre that under this Manager’s ‘stewardship’ we are going to go down with a humiliating, record low, single digit points total, establish ourselves as a permanent laughing stock and I really, really don’t want that to happen.

Edited 31 October, 2024 by stknowle

[Dark Munster]

4 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Agree, there has been much worse football on display than this in the past. If anything the current season reminds me of Poortvliet’s tenure, trying to play decent and entertaining football but we just don’t have very good players. Worse recent eras than this include MoPe, Jones, Selles and Puel, post cup final, IMO.

[Stud mark of doom]

23 hours ago, Andrew Watson said:

Having switched off the tv last night after Stokes equaliser [ I think I did well to watch for that long ], I have come to the conclusion that this is the worst team and the worst football the club have played in many a year. The turgid dross last night against Stoke City reserves was utterly depressing and even worse than the end of Ralphs tenure and the hoofball style of Jones. I had a season ticket between 2009/10 and 2019/2020 and saw some pretty poor performances and plenty of defeats,but last night really took the biscuit. This manager has turned the promising players we do have into jibbering wrecks for having to play this tippy tappy bollocks,especially across the back line.

Everton of all teams will give us the run around on saturday even with limited possession and we will be further down the road to a record premiership points low. I really pity those who paid out for season tickets [ I live in Cornwall luckily and have an excuse not to waste my money any more ] including 4 of my mates who have had a gutful already. Plenty more I could say but the likes of the knowledgable Derry and others have articulated things very well.

Seems quite harsh to characterise the 2010s decade as “some pretty poor performances and plenty of defeats”. That must be pretty close to our best decade in recent memory - some truly fantastic sides and probably never really going to last in reality. 
 

i enjoyed Ralph too - we were mad to replace him him Jones/Selles. He produced results on a shoestring for several years. 
 

last season was really enjoyable - and what an ending. Great memories. 
 

This season I think we should have quite a few more points than we have got. We’ve been pretty good for large parts of most games. Far too many mistakes but I find our football good to watch generally. We’ve had considerably worse in the past - branfoot and the post Burley  period spring to mind. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Dark Munster said:

Third top scorers in the Championship last season, 87 really boring goals, 2 behind Champions Leicester and 17 more than WBA in fifth. Obviously we’re struggling to transfer that into the PL but it’s not through lack of trying.

[Andrew Watson]

Stud mark of doom, between 2010 and 2017, I agree with you totally that the quality of football was in the main excellent. I  meant to say that I am critical of the football since then,when I believe that we have barely won 30 percent of our home games in the premier league and as for the tippy,tappy turgid dross under RM,which really is the worst I have personally ever seen. I have to admit that I have been lucky to have seen so many home goals in the sixties and seventies,especially at  - The Dell.

[Stud mark of doom]

8 hours ago, Andrew Watson said:

Stud mark of doom, between 2010 and 2017, I agree with you totally that the quality of football was in the main excellent. I  meant to say that I am critical of the football since then,when I believe that we have barely won 30 percent of our home games in the premier league and as for the tippy,tappy turgid dross under RM,which really is the worst I have personally ever seen. I have to admit that I have been lucky to have seen so many home goals in the sixties and seventies,especially at  - The Dell.

Fair enough - sixties was too early for me. I started with FA cup win, promotion and Keegan. Happy days. 
 

I think I am influenced by what came before. I thought Nichol was terrible at the time but (and I think this is a common one) he was very good. Similarly Puel.
 

I always liked Ralph - I thought he was a huge improvement on his two predecessors and his teams could play good football if sporadically. The same comments apply to Martin. 

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Third top scorers in the Championship last season, 87 really boring goals, 2 behind Champions Leicester and 17 more than WBA in fifth. Obviously we’re struggling to transfer that into the PL but it’s not through lack of trying.

Yet you're comparing that against the tenures of Jones and Selles?

Apples and pears?

[Whitey Grandad]

10 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Third top scorers in the Championship last season, 87 really boring goals, 2 behind Champions Leicester and 17 more than WBA in fifth. Obviously we’re struggling to transfer that into the PL but it’s not through lack of trying.

In a way it is exactly that. We are not trying to score goals. We are afraid of taking risks and would rather try to keep possession instead. 

[James G]

On 31/10/2024 at 08:51, HarvSFC said:

It played out like a lot of last season. Good first half, poor second half, but grind out the win due to having better players. 

We were slightly fortunate to get promoted, although that play-off run was fantastic.

However, nothing's being learnt. Football's not about being predictable and struggling to put any danger on the opposition because by the time we've got up the pitch, the opponent's half is congested and easily able to mark our players out of the game. The fact Cameron Archer only had six touches is telling. He brings nothing playing with his back to goal. He needs to be released quickly, like the two chances he got against Arsenal and Manchester City. He scored one of those, but really he isn't getting enough of those chances.

We need to exploit space more. When we win the ball back (although we're also awful to watch without the ball) we need to take advantage of any gaps left by the opposition. I don't know why a football manager wouldn't want that.

What's happening is, teams are blocking the passing route forward for Southampton and leaving the route to the keeper open. Martin is then shouting at the defenders to pass to each other to create new passing routes forward, but eventually a mistake occurs and the opposition attacks and scores. It doesn't matter what the formation is. This is what needs fixed

[Ted Bates Statue]

12 hours ago, stknowle said:

We’ve been literally a lot worse - not that long ago we got relegated to League 1 don’t forget - but in terms of how out of our depth we are for the league we are trying to operate in things have never been worse. Over the years I’ve got less bothered about how we perform and how we eventually end up. When we went down the season before last it was like ‘oh well, it is what it is’ whereas in 2005 I was utterly gutted. I would take going down again with a similar effort and points total as either of those 2 seasons with a Gallic shrug of the shoulders but the difference this time is the very real spectre that under this Manager’s ‘stewardship’ we are going to go down with a humiliating, record low, single digit points total, establish ourselves as a permanent laughing stock and I really, really don’t want that to happen.

This basically sums it up for me. The feeling that the club has joined this league insufficiently prepared insofar that we are dead on arrival. Bloody hell, Luton gave it their all last year but we can't even scrape two points together by All Saints Day. And we are still leaky against Championship sides as we have seen in the EFL Cup.

[coalman]

11 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Third top scorers in the Championship last season, 87 really boring goals, 2 behind Champions Leicester and 17 more than WBA in fifth. Obviously we’re struggling to transfer that into the PL but it’s not through lack of trying.

We also conceded 63 times last season in the league. This season if we were to extrapolate forward we'd score around 25 goals and concede around 80. Noting that's a very shonky prediction.

Last season we got promoted and there were times where we looked incredible. When we came up against Liverpool's kids in the cup they beat us 3-0 despite us giving it a go with all the same failings we're seeing week in week out. What worked in the Championship doesn't seem to be working in the Premier League. The game is faster and teams have greater levels of intensity than the Championship and are more clinical so we get punished for a lot of things we got away with last season. Teams are much better without the ball than in the Championship because of the efforts that Guardiola and Klopp (and Ralph to be fair) put into their teams.

What produced entertaining football in a lower league doesn't seem to be providing entertaining football this season. It's not a matter of what's changed. It's a matter of what needs to change. Also worth noting that Ralph's first couple of seasons produced some very entertaining stuff but, by the time he left was looking lifeless for long stretches as teams adapted to his tactics. We also failed to move it forwards with any urgency or play through the midfield. Under Martin last season we lost that press but gained more fluency in our passing. Now it seems we've lost the press and our passing is without a purpose. We rarely stretch play or break our opponents lines.

[Lighthouse]

4 hours ago, coalman said:

We also conceded 63 times last season in the league. This season if we were to extrapolate forward we'd score around 25 goals and concede around 80. Noting that's a very shonky prediction.

Last season we got promoted and there were times where we looked incredible. When we came up against Liverpool's kids in the cup they beat us 3-0 despite us giving it a go with all the same failings we're seeing week in week out. What worked in the Championship doesn't seem to be working in the Premier League. The game is faster and teams have greater levels of intensity than the Championship and are more clinical so we get punished for a lot of things we got away with last season. Teams are much better without the ball than in the Championship because of the efforts that Guardiola and Klopp (and Ralph to be fair) put into their teams.

What produced entertaining football in a lower league doesn't seem to be providing entertaining football this season. It's not a matter of what's changed. It's a matter of what needs to change. Also worth noting that Ralph's first couple of seasons produced some very entertaining stuff but, by the time he left was looking lifeless for long stretches as teams adapted to his tactics. We also failed to move it forwards with any urgency or play through the midfield. Under Martin last season we lost that press but gained more fluency in our passing. Now it seems we've lost the press and our passing is without a purpose. We rarely stretch play or break our opponents lines.

All of which is lovely but I was responding to a post saying this is the worst, most boring Saints team they’ve ever seen and we aren’t even trying to win or score goals. The PL being harder to score in is hardly a revelation but it’s a very strange twist of logic to suggest we don’t actually want to.

[coalman]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

All of which is lovely but I was responding to a post saying this is the worst, most boring Saints team they’ve ever seen and we aren’t even trying to win or score goals. The PL being harder to score in is hardly a revelation but it’s a very strange twist of logic to suggest we don’t actually want to.

I agree with you we're a long way from the worst ever but it ain't pretty right now. Not sure whether playing some good stuff last season is relevant to that.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Not the worst.

Up there with the most ineffective in the PL, but Nate and Selles' tenure there too.

It is a system designed not to let momentum increase risk, making it probably the most frustrating when it isn't working.

[Thereisonlyonemickychannon]

On 30/10/2024 at 22:56, Andrew Watson said:

Having switched off the tv last night after Stokes equaliser [ I think I did well to watch for that long ], I have come to the conclusion that this is the worst team and the worst football the club have played in many a year. The turgid dross last night against Stoke City reserves was utterly depressing and even worse than the end of Ralphs tenure and the hoofball style of Jones. I had a season ticket between 2009/10 and 2019/2020 and saw some pretty poor performances and plenty of defeats,but last night really took the biscuit. This manager has turned the promising players we do have into jibbering wrecks for having to play this tippy tappy bollocks,especially across the back line.

Everton of all teams will give us the run around on saturday even with limited possession and we will be further down the road to a record premiership points low. I really pity those who paid out for season tickets [ I live in Cornwall luckily and have an excuse not to waste my money any more ] including 4 of my mates who have had a gutful already. Plenty more I could say but the likes of the knowledgable Derry and others have articulated things very well.

Totally agree. I have supported the Saints since 1973, probably the best years. Tippy tappy modern football is awful. I can recall some exciting games where the talent of the players got us to win the bloody game. Now it is the talent of the manager. This manager is unable to adapt. It is boring. 

 

[Oldandtired]

2 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

 

It is a system designed not to let momentum increase risk, 

What do you mean not to let momentum towards the opponents goal and maybe actually get it in there increase risk.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Just now, Oldandtired said:

What do you mean not to let momentum towards the opponents goal and maybe actually get it in there increase risk.

Yeah. The system is about control through possession. The players are instructed to create movement and chances on that basis.

Sure, gaps in opponents lines will be where we create that movement. However, the team won't risk the system basics to hunt opponents down or be more open against a faltering defence.

[ally_uk]

Agreed our playing style currently is boring as Fk! I've kind of lost interest In this season and football in general 

Nothing about this team or manager excited me in all honesty..... 

[Saint_clark]

On 31/10/2024 at 09:28, Colinjb said:

How spoilt we were then, having a manager who could set up a team to defend and do the basics correctly.

Let's face it, we havn't been able to do that since, so that's seven years and counting.

He had the benefit of Van Dijk and Fonte with Bertrand and Cedric at their peak of course. Yoshida was third choice and i'd give anything to have him at that age in this team now. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, ally_uk said:

Agreed our playing style currently is boring as Fk! I've kind of lost interest In this season and football in general 

Nothing about this team or manager excited me in all honesty..... 

Going to St Mary’s is a boring chore these days.

[imadirtyurchin]

13 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Yeah. The system is about control through possession. The players are instructed to create movement and chances on that basis.

Sure, gaps in opponents lines will be where we create that movement. However, the team won't risk the system basics to hunt opponents down or be more open against a faltering defence.

This is the thing that gets me about this system - supposedly about control… but for all the possession and “the control” - we still concede way  more goals than teams playing other way - without having a far superior attacking output as mitigation. Including to stoke reserves. Looking at the defensive stats last season and this season, and throughout martins’ career and it’s almost like the theory doesn’t really align with the results - it doesn’t work. 

This is my supreme frustration with playing this way - and having to hear about being brave and sticking with the process. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, imadirtyurchin said:

This is the thing that gets me about this system - supposedly about control… but for all the possession and “the control” - we still concede way  more goals than teams playing other way - without having a far superior attacking output as mitigation. Including to stoke reserves. Looking at the defensive stats last season and this season, and throughout martins’ career and it’s almost like the theory doesn’t really align with the results - it doesn’t work. 

This is my supreme frustration with playing this way - and having to hear about being brave and sticking with the process. 

Yeah. We have the possession. We have spells where we are in control, looking for attacks. But we inevitably can't move teams and create chances frequently enough. So we look like a flat team, who always have at least 1 goal to give away.

 

[LoyalSaintSO50]

Comedy gold this one. Yeah definitely the worst team we’ve ever had. Even Pep said it last week. Shocking 3 points today. I Shan’t be going any more, we keep the ball away from the opposition far too much. We need a fan on the coaching staff. Felt like a chor today when the stadium went mental with the winner 😂

[david in sweden]

.We play dozens of close passes that foil almost every opposition attack, but as soon as we cross the halfway line, it's 

down to a one-man attack ( often Dibling ) who is marked by two or three of their  " spare" defenders.

For all these "wonderful"  % possession stats. we are unable to mount a decent attack in the final third. We get few free kicks

and even fewer corners (oh Prowsey where art thou ? )... and consequently we are only looking to walk the ball in from 6 yards.  

 

Positives from Everton game?. .a clean sheet....(for once Ramsdale came out ahead of Pickford)... and also we got help

from the woodwork... and VAR.   Let's hope we've turned the corner, because if we can't beat Wolves?....who else is left? . 

Oh yes, we play Liverpool twice inside a month before Christmas.     That would be a challenge for any club. 

Edited 3 November, 2024 by david in sweden

[Oldandtired]

On 03/11/2024 at 02:18, LoyalSaintSO50 said:

Shocking 3 points today.  😂

Yep, we’ve raced to 4 out of a possible 30…..