Saints 2-3 Leicester - Match Thread

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, BranfootsLoveChild said:

A 1-1 draw so Martin clings on to his job.......

I really don’t understand this eagerness for Russ to have an absolute stinker in the hope that the club will panic into firing him immediately. I don’t know manager people have in mind to replace him but when we binned off MoPe we got Mark Hughes. When we sacked Ralph we appointed Jones, then tried and failed to replace him with Marsch, then ended up with Selles.

If and when Russ does get the chop, it’s highly unlikely to be some superb Emery-esq appointment which propels us into the top half.

[Hayling Saint]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I really don’t understand this eagerness for Russ to have an absolute stinker in the hope that the club will panic into firing him immediately. I don’t know manager people have in mind to replace him but when we binned off MoPe we got Mark Hughes. When we sacked Ralph we appointed Jones, then tried and failed to replace him with Marsch, then ended up with Selles.

If and when Russ does get the chop, it’s highly unlikely to be some superb Emery-esq appointment which propels us into the top half.

Totally agree with this.

[StrangelyBrown]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I really don’t understand this eagerness for Russ to have an absolute stinker in the hope that the club will panic into firing him immediately. I don’t know manager people have in mind to replace him but when we binned off MoPe we got Mark Hughes. When we sacked Ralph we appointed Jones, then tried and failed to replace him with Marsch, then ended up with Selles.

If and when Russ does get the chop, it’s highly unlikely to be some superb Emery-esq appointment which propels us into the top half.

The alternative is hope that RM finds a way to win, which frankly isn't going to happen frequently enough taking big risks around our penalty area... Making a change is at least trying something rather than accepting the inevitable 

[Lighthouse]

18 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

The alternative is hope that RM finds a way to win, which frankly isn't going to happen frequently enough taking big risks around our penalty area... Making a change is at least trying something rather than accepting the inevitable 

We’re not accepting anything as inevitable, we have an outside chance of avoiding relegation if he can get it right, same as we have with another manager. We have one of, if not the, worst squads in the league, it’s going to take a fairly special manager to keep us up.

[stknowle]

1 hour ago, StrangelyBrown said:

The alternative is hope that RM finds a way to win, which frankly isn't going to happen frequently enough taking big risks around our penalty area... Making a change is at least trying something rather than accepting the inevitable 

That post is exactly 22 words and three dots too long.

[Dark Munster]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I really don’t understand this eagerness for Russ to have an absolute stinker in the hope that the club will panic into firing him immediately. I don’t know manager people have in mind to replace him but when we binned off MoPe we got Mark Hughes. When we sacked Ralph we appointed Jones, then tried and failed to replace him with Marsch, then ended up with Selles.

If and when Russ does get the chop, it’s highly unlikely to be some superb Emery-esq appointment which propels us into the top half.

No one is expecting an Emery to propel us up to the top half. Someone experienced to take us up to 17th would be fine, like what Roy did when he rescued Palace a few years ago. Our squad is good enough to compete with the lower half teams with the right manager.

RM isn’t that man. We’re almost certainly relegated with him in charge. I agree SR are clueless so there’s a danger we’ll get another of Rasmus’s appalling picks. But maybe they’ve learnt their lesson. At least there’s a chance if we get someone new in now. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Dark Munster said:

No one is expecting an Emery to propel us up to the top half. Someone experienced to take us up to 17th would be fine, like what Roy did when he rescued Palace a few years ago. Our squad is good enough to compete with the lower half teams with the right manager.

RM isn’t that man. We’re almost certainly relegated with him in charge. I agree SR are clueless so there’s a danger we’ll get another of Rasmus’s appalling picks. But maybe they’ve learnt their lesson. At least there’s a chance if we get someone new in now. 

It really isn't, it's quite obviously one of the three worst in the division, possibly the worst. Russ isn't holding this team back in quite the way that some people think he is. If you're waiting for another manager to come along and release the full attacking potential of Archer, BBD and Fraser, I fear it could be a long wait.

[Sheaf Saint]

4 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

We’re not accepting anything as inevitable, we have an outside chance of avoiding relegation if he can get it right, same as we have with another manager. We have one of, if not the, worst squads in the league, it’s going to take a fairly special manager to keep us up.

He won't though. His system is completely suicidal with the quality of squad we have, and he's said time and time again that he won't change his philosophy.

If you know you have severe limitations then at least set your team up to be hard to beat and capable of scoring on the counter. Russ will never do that.

There is pretty much zero chance he can "get it right". 

[East Kent Saint]

How will the team cope returning from international duty ?

[Lighthouse]

12 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

He won't though. His system is completely suicidal with the quality of squad we have, and he's said time and time again that he won't change his philosophy.

If you know you have severe limitations then at least set your team up to be hard to beat and capable of scoring on the counter. Russ will never do that.

There is pretty much zero chance he can "get it right". 

He's changed his tactics many times, that's clearly not true. He went to a back five at the end of last season to accomodate McCarthy's limited distribution, then changed it back this season when we were struggling. We've played different formations, with different players in different positions. Some of them, like at Bournemouth, were shocking but other than his general passing philosophy, you can't really say he's wedded to any particular way of playing.

As for, "set your team up to be hard to beat and capable of scoring on the counter," I'm sorry but that's just a cliche. We basically had that with Selles last season, every game he put out teams to hopefully not be embarassed, it didn't get us anywhere. Even the likes of Moyes and Dyche, who you'd generally associate that kind of sentiment with, have been on the end of a fair few thumpings and spent a lot of time in the bottom five, with better squads than ours.

[VectisSaint]

5 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I really don’t understand this eagerness for Russ to have an absolute stinker in the hope that the club will panic into firing him immediately. I don’t know manager people have in mind to replace him but when we binned off MoPe we got Mark Hughes. When we sacked Ralph we appointed Jones, then tried and failed to replace him with Marsch, then ended up with Selles.

If and when Russ does get the chop, it’s highly unlikely to be some superb Emery-esq appointment which propels us into the top half.

I don't think it matters much who it is, (most of) the players are simply not good enough and they certainly don't suit other systems, most have been brought in to play Martin's style. 

[Mr X]

2 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

I don't think it matters much who it is, (most of) the players are simply not good enough and they certainly don't suit other systems, most have been brought in to play Martin's style. 

This is what worries me we are tied to Martin's style both through Martin himself and the players that were bought in because they "enjoy" playing suicide ball.... I'm hoping somehow we transform the team into something half effective but not sure who is capable of that, we do have a championship squad and a championship manager but we should still have more than one bleeding point on the board from 21 available that's derby in their relegation season level bad 

[Dark Munster]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

It really isn't, it's quite obviously one of the three worst in the division, possibly the worst. Russ isn't holding this team back in quite the way that some people think he is. If you're waiting for another manager to come along and release the full attacking potential of Archer, BBD and Fraser, I fear it could be a long wait.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that.

[Lighthouse]

32 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that.

Clearly. I’m not sure who you think is worse than last season’s fourth best Championship team, combined with the attack from the worst PL team and a three or four other okay players.

[Harry_SFC]

3 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

I don't think it matters much who it is, (most of) the players are simply not good enough and they certainly don't suit other systems, most have been brought in to play Martin's style. 

Brought in to play his style yet constantly aren't good enough at it? Let's be honest, changing our style a bit could only improve us as we can't get any worse.  

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Brought in to play his style yet constantly aren't good enough at it? Let's be honest, changing our style a bit could only improve us as we can't get any worse.  

Exactly. If they’re not good enough to play his style then nobody would be.

It’s the style that has to change not the players.

[VectisSaint]

1 minute ago, Harry_SFC said:

Brought in to play his style yet constantly aren't good enough at it? Let's be honest, changing our style a bit could only improve us as we can't get any worse.  

I admire your optimism. But I think we could get worse with square pegs being put into round holes. The players we have are simply not good enough, bar a very few exceptions, and those few who are good enough will be off next season when we go down. 

[VectisSaint]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Exactly. If they’re not good enough to play his style then nobody would be.

It’s the style that has to change not the players.

But changing the style doesn't help if the players are not good enough. You can change the style all you want and we will still finish in the bottom 3, even 18th is a stretch.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

IMO, the squad we have now is no worse than the one that Ralph had and he managed to keep us up, mostly by some margin.  Unless Martin changes his apparently preferred style of ponderous passing the opposition (and crowd) to death - almost entirely in our half of the pitch - I have no doubt that we shall get relegated.  So far, he has given no indication that he will.  Given Ralph’s example, another manager could very well keep us up.  It is definitely worth a try. Even though your record of appointing managers so far is dismal, come on SR, roll the dice. 🙏

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

But changing the style doesn't help if the players are not good enough. You can change the style all you want and we will still finish in the bottom 3, even 18th is a stretch.

At the very least we could get more goals, points and self-respect.

[ally_uk]

I disagree I feel our squad is quite frankly shite.....

Our recruitment has been abysmal for ages....

If we do change the manager then I'd also suggest.

Upgrading scouting network 

Director of football 

And a experienced manager who doesn't think we are Man City....

Not much to ask for is it 🤣

Oh and proper Danny Ings replacement prefably somebody who isn't already injured/ allergic to grass....

[saintant]

9 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

But changing the style doesn't help if the players are not good enough. You can change the style all you want and we will still finish in the bottom 3, even 18th is a stretch.

The problem with your argument is that we haven't seen these players put into a system that suits a newly promoted team. Until we do it is hard to judge them as they are continually being thrown under the bus by a manager who refuses to accept that his tactics do not work despite every football commentator and pundit plus many fans telling him week in and week out that it won't.

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

6 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

At the very least we could get more goals, points and self-respect.

I think most were kind of expecting a tough season likely ending in relegation, but after RM relaxed his 'possession-obsession' right at the end of the season (which paid off and was never gonna work in the PL at our level) many of us hoped this new approach would give us a chance. But if we are going down we want to do it with a bit of pride intact and relegation won't be so devastating for a lot of (probably older) fans as it will likely be more fun the following year (not guaranteed of course).

The Championship is a good, competitive league but can quickly grim if down there too long, there were even naff days last season of course*

* Off the top of my head: Sunderland away, Leicester at home, Swansea and Cardiff away second half displays, home to Hull and MIllwall, Blackburn away, Leicester away, Stoke at home, a few late goals against, dull draws and taking the foot of the gas for more pointless passing around in our own half after we’d got a lead and could easily have gone on and buried a few sides. (and ignoring Gillingham away in the LC)

[Toussaint]

43 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

I disagree I feel our squad is quite frankly shite.....

Our recruitment has been abysmal for ages....

If we do change the manager then I'd also suggest.

Upgrading scouting network 

Director of football 

And a experienced manager who doesn't think we are Man City....

Not much to ask for is it 🤣

Oh and proper Danny Ings replacement prefably somebody who isn't already injured/ allergic to grass....

At this moment we don’t know if Cameron Archer is the new Danny Ings or Tall Paul the new Graziano Pelle. We haven’t a clue what Diaz is like, all we know, surprise surprise, is he is a very poor winger. What I am saying this squad may well be potentially much better than is being demonstrated at this point. I strongly believe the right management and coaching could get a tune out of them. 

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

At this moment we don’t know if Cameron Archer is the new Danny Ings or Tall Paul the new Graziano Pelle. We haven’t a clue what Diaz is like, all we know, surprise surprise, is he is a very poor winger. What I am saying this squad may well be potentially much better than is being demonstrated at this point. I strongly believe the right management and coaching could get a tune out of them. 

They aren't, I've no idea why people are pretending they might be otherwise. BBD and CA are 10 goal a season Championship strikers, PO scored in Turkey and Belgium but has yet to register a goal for us under three different managers. Diaz would be better up front but that means better than abysmal, as opposed to actually being good. He scored fewer goals in four seasons at Blackburn than Adam Armstrong did in three.

[derry]

Very few teams play the obsessive ultrashort passing out from the back. It is slow and deprives the team of any tempo as we try to work the ball into our opponents half intermittently passing back and starting again. It invites opponents to press without much risk and leads to errors and conceding goals. Our forwards are denied space to break unless we win the ball and pass forward immediately for example as the Arsenal goal. Man City with their £50m+ players are an exception. Arsenal had two thirds possession but moved the ball forwards and attacked our final third incessantly. Again with expensively purchased players. Notts Forest and Bournemouth with mostly budget buys showed us the other side of the coin eschewing possession football for fast breaks and hard pressing and both are well up the league.

The club's players all can play at a decent level with some better than others but are all at sea with our obsessive possession game. What they need is to be blended into a team where they can play naturally without the straitjacket that Martin has imposed on them. Players play their best when they have a style and framework that comes natural to them. We have a manager where the process is paramount and destroying us instead of having a framework to suit the players we have. We are getting the opposite of good management. Our team product is less than the sum of the parts rather than more than the sum of the parts which good managers achieve.

Unless he drops this obsession with his one trick pony and adopts a higher tempo more direct style with less room for catastrophic defence we will have no chance of pulling out of this nosedive we're in. SR should give him the choice of changing or get rid of him as soon as possible. Personally I'm sceptical whether he can change and that it would work anyway. We'll see what he does against Leicester, more of the same and I think he's done.

 

Edited October 13 by derry

[saintant]

4 minutes ago, derry said:

Very few teams play the obsessive ultrashort passing out from the back. It is slow and deprives the team of any tempo as we try to work the ball into our opponents half intermittently passing back and starting again. It invites opponents to press without much risk and leads to errors and conceding goals. Our forwards are denied space to break unless we win the ball and pass forward immediately for example as the Arsenal goal. Man City with their £50m+ players are an exception. Arsenal had two thirds possession but moved the ball forwards and attacked our final third incessantly. Again with expensively purchased players. Notts Forest with mostly budget buys showed us the other side of the coin eschewing possession football for fast breaks and hard pressing and both are well up the league.

The clubs players all can play at a decent level with some better than others but are all at sea with our obsessive possession game. What they need is to be blended into a team where they can play naturally without the straitjacket that Martin has imposed on them. Players play their best when they have a style and framework that comes natural to them. We have a manager where the process is paramount and destroying us instead of having a framework to suit the players we have. We are getting the opposite of good management. Our team product is less than the sum of the parts rather than more than the sum of the parts which good managers achieve.

Unless he drops this obsession with his one trick pony and adopts a higher tempo more direct style with less room for catastrophic defence we will have no chance of pulling out of this nosedive we're in. SR should give him the choice of changing or get rid of him as soon as possible. Personally I'm sceptical whether he can change and that it would work anyway. We'll see what he does against Leicester, more of the same and I think he's done.

 

Amen to this. Very much spot on in my book.

[east-stand-nic]

3 hours ago, saintant said:

The problem with your argument is that we haven't seen these players put into a system that suits a newly promoted team. Until we do it is hard to judge them as they are continually being thrown under the bus by a manager who refuses to accept that his tactics do not work despite every football commentator and pundit plus many fans telling him week in and week out that it won't.

This was more or less what I was thinking. A new manager with a different style could and often do, turn what look like average players into better players with better coaching and tactics. Some of the players people are saying not good enough could well become good enough if we changed the suicidal style. Long balls when needs, use target man TP to his strength, stop fannying about at the back etc. It is not so simple as players not being good enough and tactics wrong. I believe Moyes and Potter would keep this squad up. John Eustace I am not so sure as I don't know enough about him to comment. But I think we need PL experience.

[derry]

1 minute ago, east-stand-nic said:

This was more or less what I was thinking. A new manager with a different style could and often do, turn what look like average players into better players with better coaching and tactics. Some of the players people are saying not good enough could well become good enough if we changed the suicidal style. Long balls when needs, use target man TP to his strength, stop fannying about at the back etc. It is not so simple as players not being good enough and tactics wrong. I believe Moyes and Potter would keep this squad up. John Eustace I am not so sure as I don't know enough about him to comment. But I think we need PL experience.

Most of all flexibility to get the best out of the players, We don't need another one trick pony but somebody to get the best out of the squad.

[StrangelyBrown]

29 minutes ago, derry said:

Very few teams play the obsessive ultrashort passing out from the back. It is slow and deprives the team of any tempo as we try to work the ball into our opponents half intermittently passing back and starting again. It invites opponents to press without much risk and leads to errors and conceding goals. Our forwards are denied space to break unless we win the ball and pass forward immediately for example as the Arsenal goal. Man City with their £50m+ players are an exception. Arsenal had two thirds possession but moved the ball forwards and attacked our final third incessantly. Again with expensively purchased players. Notts Forest and Bournemouth with mostly budget buys showed us the other side of the coin eschewing possession football for fast breaks and hard pressing and both are well up the league.

The club's players all can play at a decent level with some better than others but are all at sea with our obsessive possession game. What they need is to be blended into a team where they can play naturally without the straitjacket that Martin has imposed on them. Players play their best when they have a style and framework that comes natural to them. We have a manager where the process is paramount and destroying us instead of having a framework to suit the players we have. We are getting the opposite of good management. Our team product is less than the sum of the parts rather than more than the sum of the parts which good managers achieve.

Unless he drops this obsession with his one trick pony and adopts a higher tempo more direct style with less room for catastrophic defence we will have no chance of pulling out of this nosedive we're in. SR should give him the choice of changing or get rid of him as soon as possible. Personally I'm sceptical whether he can change and that it would work anyway. We'll see what he does against Leicester, more of the same and I think he's done.

 

Where Man city are concerned it isn't just about the quality of their players, there is a fundamental difference between our style and theirs - they can (and do) vary it up and go long and also move the ball forward at pace - we avoid doimg either at almost all costs and it makes us so predictable.

[Whitey Grandad]

34 minutes ago, derry said:

Very few teams play the obsessive ultrashort passing out from the back. It is slow and deprives the team of any tempo as we try to work the ball into our opponents half intermittently passing back and starting again. It invites opponents to press without much risk and leads to errors and conceding goals. Our forwards are denied space to break unless we win the ball and pass forward immediately for example as the Arsenal goal. Man City with their £50m+ players are an exception. Arsenal had two thirds possession but moved the ball forwards and attacked our final third incessantly. Again with expensively purchased players. Notts Forest and Bournemouth with mostly budget buys showed us the other side of the coin eschewing possession football for fast breaks and hard pressing and both are well up the league.

The club's players all can play at a decent level with some better than others but are all at sea with our obsessive possession game. What they need is to be blended into a team where they can play naturally without the straitjacket that Martin has imposed on them. Players play their best when they have a style and framework that comes natural to them. We have a manager where the process is paramount and destroying us instead of having a framework to suit the players we have. We are getting the opposite of good management. Our team product is less than the sum of the parts rather than more than the sum of the parts which good managers achieve.

Unless he drops this obsession with his one trick pony and adopts a higher tempo more direct style with less room for catastrophic defence we will have no chance of pulling out of this nosedive we're in. SR should give him the choice of changing or get rid of him as soon as possible. Personally I'm sceptical whether he can change and that it would work anyway. We'll see what he does against Leicester, more of the same and I think he's done.

 

This is spot on.

Why is it that we and the world can see this but our board and management are so blinkered? What are the supposed advantages, if indeed there are any? Above all else it is stupefyingly boring football.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Listening to an Athletic podcast on the promoted clubs. For us, nothing that hasn't been commented upon.

They say that it either needs a change in the approach or a change in the manager to keep us up.

They point out Martin's criticisms of his team, then that he tacks on a sentence where he takes responsibility for it. They link that with a bit of self preservation on Martin's part as he points out to suitors what he wants to do with better players.

Tactically, they say that the system is an extreme version of systems already in place in the PL. They point out that others lessen it to provide pacier attacks.

Stats wise they say we're comfortably ahead in passes in our own third, bringing with it the most errors, while offering a lot less in our opponents third, and penalty area.

Edit: They also talked about recruitment, with Leicester willing to bring in experience with little sell on, while we look to bring in those we can develop longer term.

Edited October 13 by Holmes_and_Watson

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

Where Man city are concerned it isn't just about the quality of their players, there is a fundamental difference between our style and theirs - they can (and do) vary it up and go long and also move the ball forward at pace - we avoid doimg either at almost all costs and it makes us so predictable.

Personally I find Man City boring to watch. Everything happens so slowly.

[Give it to Ron]

10 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

This is spot on.

Why is it that we and the world can see this but our board and management are so blinkered? What are the supposed advantages, if indeed there are any? Above all else it is stupefyingly boring football.

They have invested a lot of money in this system and it will take them a lot to admit they got it wrong again or it’s now not working.

It will take a lot more money to change again and will that change work no guarantees it will. 

[Pamplemousse]

19 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

He won't though. His system is completely suicidal with the quality of squad we have, and he's said time and time again that he won't change his philosophy.

If you know you have severe limitations then at least set your team up to be hard to beat and capable of scoring on the counter. Russ will never do that.

There is pretty much zero chance he can "get it right". 

In the last game we were set up to be hard to beat (0-0 at half time with a very resilient defensive display) and then got a goal scoring on the counter. 

Tactically he got it spot on I'd say, until Arsenal's quality in the end shone through. Chalk and cheese compared to Brentford and Bournemouth for example where we did piss it away too easily, absolutely we weren't hard to beat.

Meanwhile Ipswich got trounced 4-1 at a far inferior team, and supposedly with a far better manager in McKenna. But apparently we should copy their tactics.

I do honestly feel if we get the first win (which is absolutely possible on Saturday) we'll look forward up the league table. Think we just need one game where it all falls into place.

I'm feeling optimistic about Saturday tbh.

 

[derry]

Personally I don't get this. Ralph wrote the playbook. When he went we threw the playbook out and went for direct long ball Jones from Luton as that went wrong we dug the playbook out of the waste bin and promoted Ruben Selles, that didn't work either. In the summer in came possession obsessive Martin. SR spent a not so small fortune on players for Jones, Selles didn't use Onuachu. Martin didn't fancy them so this season in came fourteen more players but apart from Downes and Manning none were playing as passing specialists. Manning wasn't that good either. Martin won promotion despite his system not being good enough for top two and finished fourth. Because Bazunu was injured it proved with McCarthy he couldn't play his obsessive passing so McCarthy went more direct and the team tempo was quicker helping us to win through the play offs.

Martin's passing game isn't working in the Premier League. SR have hardly shown consistency and totally lacked common sense with their selections. The three systems were as different as chalk and cheese and one could say extreme examples of each. 

Edited October 13 by derry

[Totton Saint]

Plenty of time since the break started and ends  to have stewed over the last defeat and what to do to put things right. We can but hope.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Pamplemousse said:

In the last game we were set up to be hard to beat (0-0 at half time with a very resilient defensive display) and then got a goal scoring on the counter. 

Tactically he got it spot on I'd say, until Arsenal's quality in the end shone through. Chalk and cheese compared to Brentford and Bournemouth for example where we did piss it away too easily, absolutely we weren't hard to beat.

Meanwhile Ipswich got trounced 4-1 at a far inferior team, and supposedly with a far better manager in McKenna. But apparently we should copy their tactics.

I do honestly feel if we get the first win (which is absolutely possible on Saturday) we'll look forward up the league table. Think we just need one game where it all falls into place.

I'm feeling optimistic about Saturday tbh.

 

I admire your optimism.

I am convinced that this current system is not going to get us anywhere in this League. We might fluke a win but the feeling that I get from Saturday is that of a lower division team playing against one of the elites of this country in something like a cup game.

[AlexLaw76]

Likely to shift at least 2 as Martin is not compatible with setting up with a tight defence 

[Farmer Saint]

21 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

Brought in to play his style yet constantly aren't good enough at it? Let's be honest, changing our style a bit could only improve us as we can't get any worse.  

That is completely untrue though, we could definitely get worse.

I don't think it matters as he's done, but I'm not hopeful of who we'll bring in.

[pimpin4rizeal]

I’m not quite buying this argument that our squad is so poor no manager would do well .. our promotion team under adkins had a ton of players that came up from league one with us .. yes in hindsight there was 3 or 4 with quality lallana lambert schneiderlin etc but they wasn’t proven at the time .. arguably this team isn’t a whole lot worse barring having a quality cf in lambert .. we still had the likes of fox and hooiveld.

then you had the pissooor teams mlt managed to keep up.blaming it on the squad is a bit of a cop out a good manager would find a way to make us hard to beat 

[Farmer Saint]

19 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

I’m not quite buying this argument that our squad is so poor no manager would do well .. our promotion team under adkins had a ton of players that came up from league one with us .. yes in hindsight there was 3 or 4 with quality lallana lambert schneiderlin etc but they wasn’t proven at the time .. arguably this team isn’t a whole lot worse barring having a quality cf in lambert .. we still had the likes of fox and hooiveld.

then you had the pissooor teams mlt managed to keep up.blaming it on the squad is a bit of a cop out a good manager would find a way to make us hard to beat 

All 4 of those, and Fonte, would walk into our team. Clyne would too, as would Jay Rodriguez and Gaston. Probably Yoshida too. In fact I think we'd probably keep Ramsdale, KWP at LB, and Downes. Maybe Dibling too.

However, the spine of Fonte, Schneiderlin, Lallana and Lambert are miles ahead of what we have.

Edited October 13 by Farmer Saint

[Lighthouse]

14 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

I’m not quite buying this argument that our squad is so poor no manager would do well .. our promotion team under adkins had a ton of players that came up from league one with us .. yes in hindsight there was 3 or 4 with quality lallana lambert schneiderlin etc but they wasn’t proven at the time .. arguably this team isn’t a whole lot worse barring having a quality cf in lambert .. we still had the likes of fox and hooiveld.

then you had the pissooor teams mlt managed to keep up.blaming it on the squad is a bit of a cop out a good manager would find a way to make us hard to beat 

We had peak Rickie Lambert, scoring 15 goals, peak Adam Lallana providing the creativity, Steven Davis who’s far better than anyone we’ve got now and a raw but talented J Rod and Ramirez, who both chipped in with six goals each and Morgan who, well let’s just say I can’t see Man Utd coming in for Flynn Downes any time soon. That squad was comfortably better than this one.

[OneMrsWallace]

9 hours ago, derry said:

Very few teams play the obsessive ultrashort passing out from the back. It is slow and deprives the team of any tempo as we try to work the ball into our opponents half intermittently passing back and starting again. It invites opponents to press without much risk and leads to errors and conceding goals. Our forwards are denied space to break unless we win the ball and pass forward immediately for example as the Arsenal goal. Man City with their £50m+ players are an exception. Arsenal had two thirds possession but moved the ball forwards and attacked our final third incessantly. Again with expensively purchased players. Notts Forest and Bournemouth with mostly budget buys showed us the other side of the coin eschewing possession football for fast breaks and hard pressing and both are well up the league.

The club's players all can play at a decent level with some better than others but are all at sea with our obsessive possession game. What they need is to be blended into a team where they can play naturally without the straitjacket that Martin has imposed on them. Players play their best when they have a style and framework that comes natural to them. We have a manager where the process is paramount and destroying us instead of having a framework to suit the players we have. We are getting the opposite of good management. Our team product is less than the sum of the parts rather than more than the sum of the parts which good managers achieve.

Unless he drops this obsession with his one trick pony and adopts a higher tempo more direct style with less room for catastrophic defence we will have no chance of pulling out of this nosedive we're in. SR should give him the choice of changing or get rid of him as soon as possible. Personally I'm sceptical whether he can change and that it would work anyway. We'll see what he does against Leicester, more of the same and I think he's done.

 

Agree, but I think he's already panicking a bit. Surely Tall Paul was far from his thoughts pre-season as the type of player he wants in his system, yet he's now throwing him on at Arsenal. I'd love it if we beat Leicester but I don't think that should save him. 

[pimpin4rizeal]

31 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

We had peak Rickie Lambert, scoring 15 goals, peak Adam Lallana providing the creativity, Steven Davis who’s far better than anyone we’ve got now and a raw but talented J Rod and Ramirez, who both chipped in with six goals each and Morgan who, well let’s just say I can’t see Man Utd coming in for Flynn Downes any time soon. That squad was comfortably better than this one.

But as said a lot of this with hindsight . Also don’t really think davis  is better then Fernandes or dibling even though it’s early days . I think the main differance is we ended up having 3-4 realky top players in that side ..

I think we would have been better off taking ths approach in the transfer window too , spend more money on 3-4 really quality signings instead of buying a load of cheapish signings who are not really that much better then we already had 

[Harry_SFC]

2 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

But as said a lot of this with hindsight . Also don’t really think davis  is better then Fernandes or dibling even though it’s early days . I think the main differance is we ended up having 3-4 realky top players in that side ..

I think we would have been better off taking ths approach in the transfer window too , spend more money on 3-4 really quality signings instead of buying a load of cheapish signings who are not really that much better then we already had 

Yep. Wood & Edwards can't even make a match day squad and BBD is absolutely woeful. That's the best part of £15m wasted on 3 players who will barely contribute this season. That could've gone towards a proper striker. 

Edited October 13 by Harry_SFC

[Micky]

20 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

At the very least we could get more goals, points and self-respect.

Sadly I agree.  We are so bad the only goal I see for us this season is not picking up yet more embarrassing unwanted premiere league 'records'.  From what we've shown so far this season we are firmly on the Derby County track, and the longer the season goes on the more we look like dropping through multiple leagues.  

The players are not good enough and neither is the manager, gaining any self respect this season is going to be very, very difficult. 

[suewhistle]

I haven't seen this link posted elsewhere on the board, so it might as well go here:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/oct/14/is-it-naive-for-a-promoted-side-to-play-possession-football-in-the-premier-league

Some interesting comments. Personally I'd like to get the 7% up a little bit (only Spurs on less), just for variety's sake and to keep other teams something else to think about..

 

 

[Jack]

1 hour ago, suewhistle said:

I haven't seen this link posted elsewhere on the board, so it might as well go here:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/oct/14/is-it-naive-for-a-promoted-side-to-play-possession-football-in-the-premier-league

Some interesting comments. Personally I'd like to get the 7% up a little bit (only Spurs on less), just for variety's sake and to keep other teams something else to think about..

 

 

And because all it does it inflate our pass completion stats, invites unnecessary pressure for zero gain, and is boring as fuck to watch 

[Saint_Jonny]

On 13/10/2024 at 02:37, Tommy Mulgrew said:

IMO, the squad we have now is no worse than the one that Ralph had and he managed to keep us up, mostly by some margin.  Unless Martin changes his apparently preferred style of ponderous passing the opposition (and crowd) to death - almost entirely in our half of the pitch - I have no doubt that we shall get relegated.  So far, he has given no indication that he will.  Given Ralph’s example, another manager could very well keep us up.  It is definitely worth a try. Even though your record of appointing managers so far is dismal, come on SR, roll the dice. 🙏

This is complete nonsense. Just picked out a random game from one of the seasons Ralph guided us to consecutive 15th place finishes and the following players WALK into our current side;

Adams, Ings, Walcott, Romeu, Ward-Prowse, Stu Armstrong, Bertrand

We're still playing Janny B and KWP - along with Jack Stephens - so three out of the four defenders that have been shite and or got us relegated last time around.

Ralph had a much more experienced, stronger group of players to work with. The idea that Martin is not getting enough from this group of players is fucking fantasy land.