Bournemouth 3-1 Saints - Match Thread

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, Football Special said:

You can only truly appreciate the good times once you have experienced the bad. 

Philosophy. 

What if the good times never arise again?

[The very right reverend]

The man is so clearly out of his depth it's frankly embarrassing, he is Nathan Jones and Ian Branfoot rolled into one, that team has players who should be performing better than they are doing currently but the tactics of playing from the back defies intelligence, we have poor defenders even at the best of times but to set them up to fail is either cruel or not knowing the actual teams quality. This pound shop Pep figuratively is a dead man walking.

[hypochondriac]

In summary-our players aren't great but should be performing better than they currently are. I have no doubt that a better manager would have us on more points or at the very least made us more competitive in more games this year. It's not necessarily the defeats so much as the manner of defeat. 

[Football Special]

12 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

What if the good times never arise again?

They will Grandad, they will. 

*depending on your definition of a good time (I'm including exciting cup runs, promotions etc) 

[beatlesaint]

7 minutes ago, The very right reverend said:

The man is so clearly out of his depth it's frankly embarrassing, he is Nathan Jones and Ian Branfoot rolled into one, that team has players who should be performing better than they are doing currently but the tactics of playing from the back defies intelligence, we have poor defenders even at the best of times but to set them up to fail is either cruel or not knowing the actual teams quality. This pound shop Pep figuratively is a dead man walking.

I dont know if you remember the Branfoot days, they still haunt me, and i cant believe I'm about to stick up for him but at least Branfoot had a system and a style. It was bad, really bad, but he was never fully out of his depth like this guy is. We won games, we were poor but not naieve like we are now. Compare him with Jones by all means but Branfoot was a different kind of bad !

Edited October 1 by beatlesaint

[OldNick]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In summary-our players aren't great but should be performing better than they currently are. I have no doubt that a better manager would have us on more points or at the very least made us more competitive in more games this year. It's not necessarily the defeats so much as the manner of defeat. 

I do wonder if the penalty scored against Man U and the last second goal against Ipswich would have made a whole lot of difference. Image had we 6 points before last night how different the whole night would have been. Such small margins

[Dellyears]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In summary-our players aren't great but should be performing better than they currently are. I have no doubt that a better manager would have us on more points or at the very least made us more competitive in more games this year. It's not necessarily the defeats so much as the manner of defeat. 

True! We should be performing better than we are. There was heavy investment in the summer, more than for many years. And some of the new signings like the Suga guy and Lesley Ogu could be Premier quality alongside Ramsdale, Dibling,  and probably Fernandes and KWP (where is he?) . We have the makings of a Premier squad but it needs a Premier quality manager to develop it. And that we have not got. Come on SR, don't let your investment be wasted.

[FarehamSaintJames]

As I said in the Russell Martin chat:

I’ve backed him for a long time, but once again his naivety and stubbornness are going to cost us.

It’s mad that at 3-0 down we were still trying to pass it out from the back and being pressed.

It’s mad that we started Ryan Fraser purely to wind up opposition fans when we have better alternatives.

It’s mad that we don’t play a striker but have five on the bench.

It’s mad that one of those strikers scored close to twenty goals last season and doesn’t get a look in.

It’s mad putting our brightest spark in Dibling in the centre against effectively two CBs and a holding midfield.

It’s mad the chopping and changing of our team when seemingly last week against Ipswich we played rather well.

It’s mad that we have the likes of Armel Bella-Korchap, Paul Onuachu and Kamaldeen Sulemana out of the frame (yes they didn’t perform last season), but are they worse than the dross we have seen.

On a further note…

It WILL be mad when Jack Stephens returns form suspension next week and is shoehorned back into a back five making us extremely defensive again.

 

I’m looking forward to lumping on five or six goals against us for the next couple of games. Easy money to be made!

[beatlesaint]

14 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

As I said in the Russell Martin chat:

I’ve backed him for a long time, but once again his naivety and stubbornness are going to cost us.

It’s mad that at 3-0 down we were still trying to pass it out from the back and being pressed.

It’s mad that we started Ryan Fraser purely to wind up opposition fans when we have better alternatives.

It’s mad that we don’t play a striker but have five on the bench.

It’s mad that one of those strikers scored close to twenty goals last season and doesn’t get a look in.

It’s mad putting our brightest spark in Dibling in the centre against effectively two CBs and a holding midfield.

It’s mad the chopping and changing of our team when seemingly last week against Ipswich we played rather well.

It’s mad that we have the likes of Armel Bella-Korchap, Paul Onuachu and Kamaldeen Sulemana out of the frame (yes they didn’t perform last season), but are they worse than the dross we have seen.

On a further note…

It WILL be mad when Jack Stephens returns form suspension next week and is shoehorned back into a back five making us extremely defensive again.

 

I’m looking forward to lumping on five or six goals against us for the next couple of games. Easy money to be made!

With the exception of the mention of Sulemana I agree with all that.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

36 minutes ago, OldNick said:

I do wonder if the penalty scored against Man U and the last second goal against Ipswich would have made a whole lot of difference. Image had we 6 points before last night how different the whole night would have been. Such small margins

Not sure it's small margins. We would still have had over an hour to contrive to lose the United game. There's no way we would have held out. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

Ben Brereton was a better footballer before he became Chilean and added Diaz to his surname.

And Russell Martin was doing well before he met Lucy Pinder.

[OldNick]

28 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Not sure it's small margins. We would still have had over an hour to contrive to lose the United game. There's no way we would have held out. 

But at that stage they were dire, much like us after the first goal we may have gained confidence and they may have dropped their game. I doubt a Ten Haag team talk would have pepped them up lol

[derry]

Last night showed us up for what we are. We knew how Bournemouth would play. We were sent out by the manager to demonstrate that our passing out from the back was far more sophistcated than their effort, high tempo and pressing. That went well. It is becoming evident that the players are being ground down by the straitjacket the manager has imposed on them playing out from the back or rather trying to. They don't believe in it but they have to do it.

Years ago we had a saying pressure doesn't win matches only goals do that. Possession works in the same way. It is stopping the movement because players know even if they make penetrating runs the ball will go sideways or backwards so they spectate. The club isn't doomed, however carry on with this crass idea and we shortly will be.

The team selection was a clusterfuck. Goalkeeper and back four ok. Midfield and forwards were totally out of shape. Worse there were incidents of unprofessionalism such as Ugochukwu turning his back and strolling away as Tavernier put the ball in. Firstly pick the ball up and secondly ask the referee where he wants it. That quick free kick couldn't have happened. Downes was all over the place not playing as a holding midfielder and for the second goal played Quattara onside as he was behind the defensive line and totally unaware. Only needed to step up a couple of yards and three were offside and no goal. I sense a lack of discipline and a play off the cuff mentality.

Furthermore if we were going to try and get anything in the last half hour it was going to be "Hail Mary" football so sacrifice some of the football, stick Onuachu up with Stewart throw in BBD and go route one. Not sophisticated but a different problem for Bournemouth.

Worst of all for me was apart from the back four there was no natural shape. Picking a side is an art not a science. It is the ten natural positions and the relationship between the players. Because of the unbalanced selection there was no team shape and blend. 

Personally, if Martin is still here on Saturday the club management is sitting on it's collective hands.

Edited October 1 by derry

[a1ex2001]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

What if the good times never arise again?

It’s the hope that kills you ….. and keeps you coming back get killed again and again! Saints only trophy in my lifetime is the JPT and we have definitely been absolute tosh more often than we have been good!  This is the bleakest season I remember in the prem after 6 games it looks like we are down and we are more likely to break Derby’s record at this point than stay up!

[Lone ranger]

As a Saints fan for 60 plus years I don’t ask too much. I just want us to be doing OK in whatever league we are in. I like to see the players enjoying their football and when necessary busting a gut for the team. I like there to be one or two flair players who can excite the crowd. I like to see goals being scored. ( by us preferably!) I like to know we have a manager who is respected and knows what he is doing. I don’t expect miracles. Just a competent confident team and management who make the most of the available resources and who play engaging football. When over 30000 fans turn up faithfully each home game, is that all really too much to ask??

[Micky]

30 minutes ago, Lone ranger said:

As a Saints fan for 60 plus years I don’t ask too much. I just want us to be doing OK in whatever league we are in. I like to see the players enjoying their football and when necessary busting a gut for the team. I like there to be one or two flair players who can excite the crowd. I like to see goals being scored. ( by us preferably!) I like to know we have a manager who is respected and knows what he is doing. I don’t expect miracles. Just a competent confident team and management who make the most of the available resources and who play engaging football. When over 30000 fans turn up faithfully each home game, is that all really too much to ask??

Couldn't agree more, 9 hours of football and none of our 'strikers' have scored yet, they don't even look like they are going to score.  Much respect to all of the ST holders - it's gonna be a long cold winter.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, a1ex2001 said:

It’s the hope that kills you ….. and keeps you coming back get killed again and again! Saints only trophy in my lifetime is the JPT and we have definitely been absolute tosh more often than we have been good!  This is the bleakest season I remember in the prem after 6 games it looks like we are down and we are more likely to break Derby’s record at this point than stay up!

At my age it’s unlikely that I shall see good times ever again. Even the occasional win over one of the glamour clubs would be something.

[Whitey Grandad]

21 minutes ago, Micky said:

Couldn't agree more, 9 hours of football and none of our 'strikers' have scored yet, they don't even look like they are going to score.  Much respect to all of the ST holders - it's gonna be a long cold winter.

They can’t score if they’re on the bench.

[OldNick]

13 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

They can’t score if they’re on the bench.

Exactly, he said something like I had forwards on the bench as we needed goals, well bloody play one or 2 of them ffs.

[davefizzy14]

8 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

Personally i'd argue we should be setting up to take advantage of our aerial ability, get to the byline put in crosses. We must have the 2 tallest strikers in the league. 

 

Absolutely this. The amount of crosses we have put into the box so far this season but we've had no ariel threat on the pitch to attack them. Both Stewart and Onuachu would thrive on this.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

8 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I found it hard to truly, truly enjoy last season, I'm not sure why - I've never really been able to put my finger on it. It could be because we never were really comfortable against anyone? It felt a bit of a slog, when it shouldn't have been. I can count on one hand our really comfortable wins at home, Blackburn home, Swansea home, Sheff Weds home, PNE. Swansea away should have been comfortable, but we also made hard work of that.

With the players we had available to us last year we should not have lost two games 5-0, and one game 4-1. It may be those results that also dent my feeling of the season.

For sure, promotion is promotion and days like that will live long forever, but a season like this will nullify the feeling I had of it for sure. I'll be honest I'm still surprised we are here because I never thought we were anywhere near good enough last year.

I truly did enjoy last season but I went to Huddersfield and Blackburn and saw how crap our tactics were against honestly average teams. My son wouldn't have any of my criticism of RM citing how he'd pulled the team spirit together and how we got promoted, but for me that was the bare minimum requirement and we got lucky.

SR have given RM new players (albeit not a respected striker) and I thought we were starting to improve but boy have we taken two steps back. I genuinely thought Cornet was going to be tried up front in the middle, but those tactics yesterday were again piss poor. Five strikers on the bench. I really don't understand why senior pros can't stop him and say, this won't work. We need some avenue to score goals.

And this slowing it down with nothing passes at the back slows down players' mentality. Bournemouth just looked faster and I don't believe that physically they are. They just reacted quicker to everything; their first goal being a prime example.

[Harry_SFC]

1 hour ago, davefizzy14 said:

Absolutely this. The amount of crosses we have put into the box so far this season but we've had no ariel threat on the pitch to attack them. Both Stewart and Onuachu would thrive on this.

THB is our joint top scorer with two headers from set pieces. The fact this is looking like the only way we are going to score speaks volumes. 

We need to go back to basics and play to the players strengths. Not shoehorning a philosophy onto them when only a few of them are good enough to play it. Obviously won't happen with Martin in charge as he's already told everyone plenty of times. 

Edited October 1 by Harry_SFC

[suewhistle]

28 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Exactly, he said something like I had forwards on the bench as we needed goals, well bloody play one or 2 of them ffs.

If he had added something to the effect of Stewart not being fit enough for 90 minutes, or wanting him to play against a tiring defence it might have made a little more sense, but 5 of them?! Also why not score first and then bring on a defender, it's as if he's accepted that at some stage we will be chasing the game. All in all extremely odd and irrational.

[Whitey Grandad]

9 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

If he had added something to the effect of Stewart not being fit enough for 90 minutes, or wanting him to play against a tiring defence it might have made a little more sense, but 5 of them?! Also why not score first and then bring on a defender, it's as if he's accepted that at some stage we will be chasing the game. All in all extremely odd and irrational.

Weird.  Just weird.  He must have known that he couldn't play all five of them so why put them all on the bench? Or was he just trying to keep them all happy by getting them involved?

[madge]

Some so called saints expert was on talk shite this morning at 6.30am. He stated that regardless of what happens we stick with Martin. If that’s true then that’s a kick in the face to every saints fan who’s invested their hard earned cash into supporting the team. 
It’s pretty obvious SR don’t have a clue.. 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Weird.  Just weird.  He must have known that he couldn't play all five of them so why put them all on the bench? Or was he just trying to keep them all happy by getting them involved?

One report I read reckoned him leaving all 5 strikers on the bench ‘looked like he was sending a message to the SFC recruitment department’. I certainly was a weird thing to do, the sort of thing a manager does when he knows his time is up.

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, aintforever said:

One report I read reckoned him leaving all 5 strikers on the bench ‘looked like he was sending a message to the SFC recruitment department’. I certainly was a weird thing to do, the sort of thing a manager does when he knows his time is up.

He could be that stupid I suppose. The department would say “why do you want another one? You’ve got five already.l

[BotleySaint]

Up until this game I believed that our main issue was a lack of a quality striker and while that is still true, I think this has brutally exposed that the players I thought were good enough simply aren't up to it either.

THB, Bednarek, Downes, Suga even Dibling to a certain extent (primarily. he's not quite ready yet).

All of this exacerbated by the fact we lined up in an odd 4-6-0 formation and it was clear apart from a few initial flurries that caught Bournemouth off guard (they were as confused as our players) it would turn into pure chaos. Once that was exposed and heads dropped, none of our players have the composure, strength, experience and quality to stop it.

Sometimes I've joked an upcoming game would be 9-0 when we've come up against the likes or Arsenal, City, Utd etc. Usually it's been tongue in cheek, but with the upcoming Arsenal game I really genuinely think that this team and this manager could see that record broken.

I just can't see anything that can stop it happening, even a new manager. It is entirely up to Arsenal if they want to take it or leave it.

Please someone cheer me up 

Edited October 2 by BotleySaint

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, BotleySaint said:

Up until this game I believed that our main issue was a lack of a quality striker and while that is still true, I think this has brutally exposed that the players I thought were good enough simply aren't up to it either.

THB, Bednarek, Downes, Suga even Dibling to a certain extent (primarily. he's not quite ready yet).

All of this exacerbated by the fact we lined up in an odd 4-6-0 formation

No we didn't, we played the first half in a 4-4-2 / 4-2-2-2 with Dibling and Fernandes as the two up top.

Dibling looked poor in that game because he was taken out of the position he's been consistently far and away our best player this season (down our right, running with the ball at his feet at isolated full backs) and put into a position he can't play (in the centre, trying to win headers and first balls, being battered by centre halves). Because of course he was. 

Fernandes was sort of playing off him as a strike partner, also looking completely lost and ineffective because he was being played out of position as well. 

In terms of team selection and tactics, it was genuinely the worst I've ever seen from a Saints manager. And I saw Branfoot try and replace Matthew Le Tissier with Paul Moody. 

Edited October 2 by Midfield_General

[Osvaldorama]

11 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

No we didn't, we played the first half in a 4-4-2 / 4-2-2-2 with Dibling and Fernandes as the two up top.

Dibling looked poor in that game because he was taken out of the position he's been consistently far and away our best player this season (down our right, running with the ball at his feet at isolated full backs) and put into a position he can't play (in the centre, trying to win headers and first balls, being battered by centre halves). Because of course he was. 

Fernandes was sort of playing off him as a strike partner, also looking completely lost and ineffective because he was being played out of position as well. 

In terms of team selection and tactics, it was genuinely the worst I've ever seen from a Saints manager. And I saw Branfoot try and replace Matthew Le Tissier with Paul Moody. 

Agreed. It was fucking stupid. 
 

If he wanted to go 2 up top, we’d have been better off putting Archer and Stewart up top as big man / little man than whatever the fuck that was. 

Plus he left out all of our “press resistant” players against a high pressing side. 

Fucking appalling management tbh. How do we keep appointing people with such bad tactical acumen?

Before the game almost every fan knew that line up was a joke 

Edited October 2 by Osvaldorama

[Totton Saint]

On 30/09/2024 at 23:05, John B said:

You must be joking you have no idea we have Archer and BBD as strikers I can assure your we have never had such poor ones in the last sixty years.

 

Unlike you I have been very lucky to see good Saints Strikers like Ron Davies Martin Chivers Micky Channon Peter Osgood Phil Boyer Ted McDougal Steve Moran Keegan Alan Shearer Worthington Danny Wallace MLT Beattie Pharas and probably Lambert Mane Pelle 

I wont bore you with a list of creative players but I saw two world cup winning players Paine and Ball in Saints teams too

What about Joe Jordan and John Sydenham? You have a good memory though.

[derry]

7 minutes ago, Totton Saint said:

What about Joe Jordan and John Sydenham? You have a good memory though.

Derek Reeves or Chivers plus George O'Brien maybe but Syddy was part of the supply team along with Paine for all the strikers for years.

[Totton Saint]

I remember Reeves. I started watching saints when they were in Div 3 South.  

[John B]

23 hours ago, Totton Saint said:

What about Joe Jordan and John Sydenham? You have a good memory though.

Yes I have been quite lucky to see some really good players

Paul Rideout Colin Clarke Eigil Ostenstaad were other strikers who I feel were much better than any we have today

[John B]

On 02/10/2024 at 12:26, Totton Saint said:

I remember Reeves. I started watching saints when they were in Div 3 South.  

Me too but only once as he was sold to Bournemouth and replaced with George Kirby such a gentleman off the pitch but quite the opposite on it

 

I remember one time against Swansea George injured three players in quick succession and there was no one available to attend the third

[derry]

George had a list. For example he had been clogged by a well known centre half. When Saints played them George had a trick up his sleeve. He had the ball but let it out a little towards the centre half in question who took it hook line and sinker. As he went to control the ball George went over the top and cleaned him out. I'll never forget the night Saints were in a replay with Notts Forest in the FA Cup 0-3 down and 13 mins left. George terrified goalkeeper Peter Grummit under the crossbar, lethal with Paine putting the crosses in. Saints drew and won the second replay at White Hart Lane the next week 5-0. Lost 0-1 in the semi final at Villa Park in 1963 after that awful snowy winter. Denis Law scuffed in the winner.

[Francis1947]

44 minutes ago, derry said:

George had a list. For example he had been clogged by a well known centre half. When Saints played them George had a trick up his sleeve. He had the ball but let it out a little towards the centre half in question who took it hook line and sinker. As he went to control the ball George went over the top and cleaned him out. I'll never forget the night Saints were in a replay with Notts Forest in the FA Cup 0-3 down and 13 mins left. George terrified goalkeeper Peter Grummit under the crossbar, lethal with Paine putting the crosses in. Saints drew and won the second replay at White Hart Lane the next week 5-0. Lost 0-1 in the semi final at Villa Park in 1963 after that awful snowy winter. Denis Law scuffed in the winner.

Derry

Weren't they memorable days at the Dell.  I think we were watching a very different game then to the one we watch now.

George Kirby was a bloody monster and I do remember going to that match v Nottingham Forest that night. I attended with my Dad and a full Dell under floodlights was very special place to be in those days. I think Kirby was signed from Plymouth along with Dave Burnside from WBA ? and Stuart Williams that season. Williams was a very old fashioned full back !

The comeback from 3-0 down was magnificent and you are right about Grummit.....who was a good keeper....being terrified of Kirby that night. I seem to remember the equalising goal was from a corner where Kirby took the ball, the keeper and half the crossbar into the back of the net ! It was allowed in those days !

And then the magical night at White Hart Lane where we won 5-0.  Attended with my Dad again and I seem to remember being sat in the Stand with him for some reason. Also my memory tells me that there were huge traffic jams to the stadium and wasnt it delayed for a while to allow all the Saints fans to get in ?  

And then the huge disapointment at Villa Park. It was truly awful football match but I do remember marveling at the size of the Stands at that old ground.

Happy, precious memories

[derry]

3 hours ago, Francis1947 said:

Derry

Weren't they memorable days at the Dell.  I think we were watching a very different game then to the one we watch now.

George Kirby was a bloody monster and I do remember going to that match v Nottingham Forest that night. I attended with my Dad and a full Dell under floodlights was very special place to be in those days. I think Kirby was signed from Plymouth along with Dave Burnside from WBA ? and Stuart Williams that season. Williams was a very old fashioned full back !

The comeback from 3-0 down was magnificent and you are right about Grummit.....who was a good keeper....being terrified of Kirby that night. I seem to remember the equalising goal was from a corner where Kirby took the ball, the keeper and half the crossbar into the back of the net ! It was allowed in those days !

And then the magical night at White Hart Lane where we won 5-0.  Attended with my Dad again and I seem to remember being sat in the Stand with him for some reason. Also my memory tells me that there were huge traffic jams to the stadium and wasnt it delayed for a while to allow all the Saints fans to get in ?  

And then the huge disapointment at Villa Park. It was truly awful football match but I do remember marveling at the size of the Stands at that old ground.

Happy, precious memories

Exactly that. I can still see that last goal as the ball was put under crossbar and Kirby driving in, I thought Grummit bottled it and almost tried to get out of the way. I was behind the goal at Villa Park, so close, what a disappointment that was. Not long after that I saw George walking along Cumberland Place pushing a pram, you'd never know.

Edited October 3 by derry