Saints v Ipswich - Saturday 3pm

[trousers]

7 minutes ago, Hengistbury Header said:

Nonsense. Fernandez wide right?!?

Left, actually (teams tend to play facing forwards ) .... But, you're right, probably still "nonsense" (something I'm particularly good at to be fair... 😎 )

Edited Wednesday at 19:26 by trousers

[trousers]

4 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Armel Bella-Kotchap: “The last few weeks have been turbulent and unpredictable, but I‘m 100% fit both physically and mentally. I‘m just waiting for my chance, and I‘ll lead with my performance on the field when the time is ready.” #saintsfc @FabrizioRomano

 

Probably not for this game but give the boy a chance. 

I doubt 'going public' will do him any favours with Martin... 

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, trousers said:

I doubt 'going public' will do him any favours with Martin... 

Well keeping it behind closed doors seemingly hasn't moved the needle. Not much to lose from his perspective I would imagine. 

[Football Special]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Well keeping it behind closed doors seemingly hasn't moved the needle. Not much to lose from his perspective I would imagine. 

Mad to think he was in Germany squad for the last world Cup 

[sfc4prem]

 

17 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Mad to think he was in Germany squad for the last world Cup 

Fast forward to 2024 where he is being left out of a shite team rooted in the PL relegation zone with zero points and one goal to their name.

[Oldandtired]

10 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

 

Fast forward to 2024 where he is being left out of a shite team rooted in the PL relegation zone with zero points and one goal to their name.

.... And a defence that has given away some really awful goals this season. He really can't be any worse than what we've got at the moment.

Edited Wednesday at 20:09 by Oldandtired

[Charlie Wayman]

6 hours ago, Chewy said:

That’s not the problem. The problem is that we don’t have anyone that can score goals. 

That's not the problem either as we scored 6/6 penalties last night.

[Hengistbury Header]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Left, actually (teams tend to play facing forwards ) .... But, you're right, probably still "nonsense" (something I'm particularly good at to be fair... 😎 )

Me too apparently. 😳

[Lighthouse]

5 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Armel Bella-Kotchap: “The last few weeks have been turbulent and unpredictable, but I‘m 100% fit both physically and mentally. I‘m just waiting for my chance, and I‘ll lead with my performance on the field when the time is ready.” #saintsfc @FabrizioRomano

 

Probably not for this game but give the boy a chance. 

None of us know what’s gone on behind the scenes with ABK but he’s quite clearly not in our plans, for whatever reason. I’m not sure a generic social media post is really going to have all that impact on anything.

[SNSUN]

Huge game, it doesn’t make or break our season but a win would be massive mentally.

I was farting about on Wiki earlier and our 93 season started thusly:

14 August 19931

Southampton

0–2

Everton

Southampton

17 August 19932

Ipswich Town

1–0

Southampton

Ipswich

21 August 19933

Queens Park Rangers

2–1

Southampton

London

25 August 19934

Southampton

5–1

Swindon Town

Southampton

28 August 19935

Southampton

1–3

Manchester United

Southampton

31 August 19936

Wimbledon

1–0

Southampton

London

11 September 19937

Southampton

0–2

Leeds United

Southampton

18 September 19938

Sheffield Wednesday

2–0

Southampton

Sheffield

25 September 19939

Arsenal

1–0

Southampton

London

2 October 199310

Southampton

3–3

Sheffield United

Southampton

16 October 199311

Coventry City

1–1

Southampton

Coventry

We only beat a very shit Swindon in the first 9 games and then drew a couple before we won again… and we survived. In fact a few seasons started badly in a similar way. I know the game is different now win a more defined top 6/7 that are miles stronger than everyone else but this bad start is nothing to worry about… yet. I’m still pinning a lot of hope that the summer signings come good long term and that Russ stops with his favouritism and stubbornness with the style and does what is best for the team to win games.

[Dark Munster]

7 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Still early days but this feels like it may define our season. If we manage to win it we are up and running and everyone feels good. Draw or lose though and we will continue to talk about record low points totals and embarrassment. 

In other words, it's a must win match?

 

3 hours ago, Football Special said:

Ipswich fan i work with

"We had 6 points off you last season and I see no reason why we won't do it again. McKenna will have the better of Martin" 

I get they don't like Martin due to his Norwich connections so will be keen to get one over him again. 

Hard to argue with the tractor boy about that.

[SWLondon Saint]

48 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

...and that Russ stops with his favouritism and stubbornness with the style and does what is best for the team to win games.

Well, if I remember right we were warned about this by Swansea fans when he came, so not much reason to think a light's suddenly gonna switch on in his head... Just can't see the logic in Wood over ABK or Edwards.

[Saint Fan CaM]

6 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Depends what you believe doesn't it. 

Well he’s hardly going to say he’s physically and mentally knackered and not available for selection is he? The point is, once you’ve disrupted team harmony and sought to get away, it must be very difficult getting back into the fold and he’s clearly got way to go to persuade Russ to drop one of his favs, despite the fact that he’s probably the best CB on our books.

[CB Fry]

8 hours ago, SNSUN said:

Huge game, it doesn’t make or break our season but a win would be massive mentally.

I was farting about on Wiki earlier and our 93 season started thusly:

 

14 August 19931

Southampton

0–2

Everton

Southampton

17 August 19932

Ipswich Town

1–0

Southampton

Ipswich

21 August 19933

Queens Park Rangers

2–1

Southampton

London

25 August 19934

Southampton

5–1

Swindon Town

Southampton

28 August 19935

Southampton

1–3

Manchester United

Southampton

31 August 19936

Wimbledon

1–0

Southampton

London

11 September 19937

Southampton

0–2

Leeds United

Southampton

18 September 19938

Sheffield Wednesday

2–0

Southampton

Sheffield

25 September 19939

Arsenal

1–0

Southampton

London

2 October 199310

Southampton

3–3

Sheffield United

Southampton

16 October 199311

Coventry City

1–1

Southampton

Coventry

We only beat a very shit Swindon in the first 9 games and then drew a couple before we won again… and we survived. In fact a few seasons started badly in a similar way. I know the game is different now win a more defined top 6/7 that are miles stronger than everyone else but this bad start is nothing to worry about… yet. I’m still pinning a lot of hope that the summer signings come good long term and that Russ stops with his favouritism and stubbornness with the style and does what is best for the team to win games.

So we should definitely sack the manager then as we were going down with Branfoot for sure.

And also would be helpful to have Matthew Le Tissier.

[Dman]

8 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

None of us know what’s gone on behind the scenes with ABK but he’s quite clearly not in our plans, for whatever reason. I’m not sure a generic social media post is really going to have all that impact on anything.

if - and its a big if - his post is genuine and commited to the cause (until January at least), its a bit of a no brainer to try and integrate him back. Quality wise, he pisses all over every single other CB we have and would improve us. I have my doubts and was really hopeful that we'd shift him. As you said, only really those on the ground will know what gone / going on. 

[Dman]

Ipswich are exactly the sort of side who'll cause us big problems, a bit like Forest did. They're well orgainsed and will hit us on the counter with directness and pace. 

This could easily be the beginning of the end for Martin - A comprehensive defeat like the other 4 games and I can't see him lasting until Novemeber. 

I'm gonna go for 0-2. 

[saintant]

9 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Well he’s hardly going to say he’s physically and mentally knackered and not available for selection is he? The point is, once you’ve disrupted team harmony and sought to get away, it must be very difficult getting back into the fold and he’s clearly got way to go to persuade Russ to drop one of his favs, despite the fact that he’s probably the best CB on our books.

If he's fit and keen to play and his head is in the right place and is considered one of the best centre backs at the club (which he is) he should be starting games. The manager and players don't have to like him - sure, it helps if they do. We don't always get on with those we work with but if a person was good at their job a manager wouldn't have them sat at home on full pay because he wasn't the most popular with him or his colleagues.

[The Left Back]

14 hours ago, Football Special said:

Ipswich fan i work with

"We had 6 points off you last season and I see no reason why we won't do it again. McKenna will have the better of Martin" 

 

I get they don't like Martin due to his Norwich connections so will be keen to get one over him again. 

The only counter I would offer your work colleague (having watched both games in full) is that in the first game Ipswich were very ordinary until we absolutely gifted them a goal, after which we fell to nerve-riddled pieces and they looked a bit less ordinary.  And in the second game we played them off the park for over an hour and somehow contrived to lose late on.

It's not much of a defence but the idea that they will win Saturday because of last season is flawed (and the idea they'll try harder cos our manager is ex-Norwich is nonsense).  What's more relevant is current form, which certainly suggests it's going to be tough for us.

[Chewy]

13 hours ago, saintant said:

You contradict yourself by saying we scored plenty of goals last season while saying we don't have a competent striker. How many goals did AA score last season?

No I don’t  because no I didn’t. I said we created plenty of chances last season, I did not say we scored plenty of goals. If we’d had a competent striker last year we’d have comfortably been promoted automatically. Our conversion of chances is the issue, as it has been for 3/4 seasons. 
My point is that 4231 v 433 as a way of arranging players will do little to change this fact. A change in intent or style of play might to an extent, but our lack of a decent striker will probably cost us this season as it nearly did last year and as it did the previous year.

This is an issue of personnel and to an extent tactics (in style of play), not the formation in itself.

[AlexLaw76]

2-2 draw

[AlexLaw76]

12 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

The only counter I would offer your work colleague (having watched both games in full) is that in the first game Ipswich were very ordinary until we absolutely gifted them a goal, after which we fell to nerve-riddled pieces and they looked a bit less ordinary.  And in the second game we played them off the park for over an hour and somehow contrived to lose late on.

It's not much of a defence but the idea that they will win Saturday because of last season is flawed (and the idea they'll try harder cos our manager is ex-Norwich is nonsense).  What's more relevant is current form, which certainly suggests it's going to be tough for us.

For an ordinary team, they out performed us in nearly every very metric last season.

sat above us now, are they not?

[Midfield_General]

Need to show we can keep a clean sheet. 

Need to show we can score goals.

Ipswich at home should be the perfect opportunity to do both. 

Should be. 

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

if - and its a big if - his post is genuine and commited to the cause (until January at least), its a bit of a no brainer to try and integrate him back. Quality wise, he pisses all over every single other CB we have and would improve us. I have my doubts and was really hopeful that we'd shift him. As you said, only really those on the ground will know what gone / going on. 

And yet he’s not even in the match day squad, which should tell you something about the ‘big if’. Martin knows his job is on the line, he wouldn’t have excluded our supposed best CB without good reason.

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

If he's fit and keen to play and his head is in the right place and is considered one of the best centre backs at the club (which he is) he should be starting games. The manager and players don't have to like him - sure, it helps if they do. We don't always get on with those we work with but if a person was good at their job a manager wouldn't have them sat at home on full pay because he wasn't the most popular with him or his colleagues.

You and I and others might like to see him play, however you’re wrong to think a player is going to be picked if he’s disliked by his Manager and/or fellow players. In a team sport at this level that can make a difference when small gains help. And my interpretation of how Russ views his team would mean ABK is not favoured over more ‘loyal’ players despite his positive attributes.

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, Chewy said:

No I don’t  because no I didn’t. I said we created plenty of chances last season, I did not say we scored plenty of goals. If we’d had a competent striker last year we’d have comfortably been promoted automatically. Our conversion of chances is the issue, as it has been for 3/4 seasons. 
My point is that 4231 v 433 as a way of arranging players will do little to change this fact. A change in intent or style of play might to an extent, but our lack of a decent striker will probably cost us this season as it nearly did last year and as it did the previous year.

This is an issue of personnel and to an extent tactics (in style of play), not the formation in itself.

I think there’s something to what you say here, however my feeling is there is not enough information available to draw that conclusion. We have two new forwards in BBD and Archer - three if you include Cornet - who can score goals. If we were to find a system that allowed those players to click…to get into goal scoring opportunities and score goals, then it would not be a personnel issue. We’ve yet to find that system, so for me it’s this at the moment that is the burning problem…we just don’t move the ball in a way that creates goal scoring opportunities. The formation MAY have an influence on that because it may need to be a certain pattern to allow the system to click.

Edited Thursday at 09:32 by Saint Fan CaM

[Midfield_General]

20 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

You and I and others might like to see him play, however you’re wrong to think a player is going to be picked if he’s disliked by his Manager and/or fellow players. In a team sport at this level that can make a difference when small gains help. And my interpretation of how Russ views his team would mean ABK is not favoured over more ‘loyal’ players despite his positive attributes.

Exactly. Say what you like about Martin, but it seems pretty clear that he places a high value on what he perceives as 'character'. He talks about showing loyalty a lot, and obviously expects that back, however that might be interpreted. Whatever's happened behind the scenes with ABK, it's pretty obvious that he's lost the trust of whichever staff were around at that time, and who are still there now advising Martin.

The only reason he brought him on in the Cardiff cup game was in response to his failed medical at Hoffenheim the week before, to show other clubs that he was physically fit in order to try and sell him before the window closed. He hasn't so much as made the bench in any other game. That suggests he's at least seventh choice as a CB option behind Bednarek, Stephens, THB, Wood, Edwards and probably Taylor. 

One way or another he has royally pissed on his chips, and while it seems very unlikely we'll ever know what he actually did in order to debate whether it merits this treatment or not, for as long as Martin's in charge, rightly or wrongly, he's done here. 

Edited Thursday at 09:38 by Midfield_General

[Oldandtired]

57 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

And yet he’s not even in the match day squad, which should tell you something about the ‘big if’. Martin knows his job is on the line, he wouldn’t have excluded our supposed best CB without good reason.

I disagree a bit there. I don’t think he needs a reason other than his ‘it’s my way or the highway approach’. Whether or not a player is creative, inventive or even Messi in disguise unless he fits RM’s vanity project of proving his way is better than anybody else’s’ in the PL (which would seem not to be working so far), he stands no chance under Martin. Yes, I know, people will shout TD but I feel even he is being kept in check and that we have to yet see the full fat version of him.

And yes I will eat humungeous slices of humble pie if his way does end up working. I hope I’m wrong over this, this is my club, and I want it to do well but under you know who I am apprehensive.

[Midfield_General]

21 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

I disagree a bit there. I don’t think he needs a reason other than his ‘it’s my way or the highway approach’. Whether or not a player is creative, inventive or even Messi in disguise unless he fits RM’s vanity project of proving his way is better than anybody else’s’ in the PL (which would seem not to be working so far), he stands no chance under Martin. Yes, I know, people will shout TD but I feel even he is being kept in check and that we have to yet see the full fat version of him.

And yes I will eat humungeous slices of humble pie if his way does end up working. I hope I’m wrong over this, this is my club, and I want it to do well but under you know who I am apprehensive.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree there. It's pretty obviously nothing to do with his footballing ability or whether he fits Martin's system. He's a full German international who got picked for a World Cup squad, he's obviously good enough and Martin will obviously be able to see that as well as any of us can. 

He's just pissed a bunch of people off to the extent that they're done with him and they don't want him around. You can agree or disagree with whether that's them cutting their nose off to spite their face, but that's what's happened. It's entirely personal, and nothing to do with RM's 'way', systems or anything else to do with his actual playing ability. 

[Oldandtired]

2 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

I think you're barking up the wrong tree there. It's pretty obviously nothing to do with his footballing ability or whether he fits Martin's system. He's a full German international who got picked for a World Cup squad, he's obviously good enough and Martin will obviously be able to see that as well as any of us can. 

He's just pissed a bunch of people off to the extent that they're done with him and they don't want him around. You can agree or disagree with whether that's them cutting their nose off to spite their face, but that's what's happened. It's entirely personal, and nothing to do with RM's 'way', systems or anything else to do with his actual playing ability. 

So I suppose the opposite of that is that he keeps playing JS because he’s a ‘good guy’ and gets on with everybody? 
 

Sorry, but if you don’t play your best players then you’re not really going to succeed at the highest level are you?

[ally_uk]

If they batter us then Martin has to go! 

[austsaint]

3 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

So I suppose the opposite of that is that he keeps playing JS because he’s a ‘good guy’ and gets on with everybody? 
 

Sorry, but if you don’t play your best players then you’re not really going to succeed at the highest level are you?

Agree with you.  Identifying and playing your best players is the 101 of sports coaching and management.    Unless ABK has assaulted someone or ignored  Club standards and protocols, why freeze him out.   I'd have more regard for a Manager who can rehabilitate a loose cannon or help a talented player to redeem himself, than one who marks a players card never to play again.      

[gammon cheeks]

3 points and a few goals would be nice!       A loss and no goals would be utter shite! x

[suewhistle]

1 hour ago, austsaint said:

    Unless ABK has assaulted someone or ignored  Club standards and protocols, why freeze him out.   I'd have more regard for a Manager who can rehabilitate a loose cannon or help a talented player to redeem himself, than one who marks a players card never to play again.      

Surely there must be more to it than just thinking he's a prat or has behaved badly? After all, they're still paying him and he's better than we've got; certainly better than JS!

Is it something for which you or I in employment would have been sacked but as he has a contract it's more difficult (or expensive) to pursue? Will the question get asked at any press conferences? Bear in mind that any reply has to be circumspect due to the danger of potential libel, or not getting shot of him in the January window.:-)

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, Oldandtired said:

So I suppose the opposite of that is that he keeps playing JS because he’s a ‘good guy’ and gets on with everybody? 
 

Sorry, but if you don’t play your best players then you’re not really going to succeed at the highest level are you?

 

1 hour ago, austsaint said:

Agree with you.  Identifying and playing your best players is the 101 of sports coaching and management.    Unless ABK has assaulted someone or ignored  Club standards and protocols, why freeze him out.   I'd have more regard for a Manager who can rehabilitate a loose cannon or help a talented player to redeem himself, than one who marks a players card never to play again.      

I don't disagree with you on principle, but it's pretty difficult to say whether it's justified or not without knowing exactly what he's done. 

There are loads of examples of players in all sports who had the ability, but where that on it's own wasn't enough to trump the negative effect they had on the team in other ways. 

In rugby the All Blacks talk about the No Dickheads rule - it doesn't matter how good you are, no-one's bigger than the team, and if you're not felt to be working together towards the same goal as everyone else, you're not getting picked. The other players actually have a big say in that, and help to enforce it. 

Alex Ferguson used to dump otherwise excellent players all the time if they stepped outside the rules he had set for what he expected from his players in terms of behaviour and attitude towards the team. 

The point is that in a team sport there's a lot more to whether you deserve to get picked for that team or not than simply how good you are at the sport in question, especially at the elite level.  

But as I say, as we don't know what he's done (or is meant to have done), it's very hard to make a judgment as to whether the response is justified or not, and those saying 'just pick him whatever' are misunderstanding how the dynamics work in team sport. 

 

[Oldandtired]

38 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

 

I don't disagree with you on principle, but it's pretty difficult to say whether it's justified or not without knowing exactly what he's done. 

There are loads of examples of players in all sports who had the ability, but where that on it's own wasn't enough to trump the negative effect they had on the team in other ways. 

In rugby the All Blacks talk about the No Dickheads rule - it doesn't matter how good you are, no-one's bigger than the team, and if you're not felt to be working together towards the same goal as everyone else, you're not getting picked. The other players actually have a big say in that, and help to enforce it. 

Alex Ferguson used to dump otherwise excellent players all the time if they stepped outside the rules he had set for what he expected from his players in terms of behaviour and attitude towards the team. 

The point is that in a team sport there's a lot more to whether you deserve to get picked for that team or not than simply how good you are at the sport in question, especially at the elite level.  

But as I say, as we don't know what he's done (or is meant to have done), it's very hard to make a judgment as to whether the response is justified or not, and those saying 'just pick him whatever' are misunderstanding how the dynamics work in team sport. 

 

I think that's fair enough if you are talking about teams that have viable alternatives who are on a par if not better than the players you are thinking of dropping, I would think that Alex Ferguson's Man U teams were a prime example of that.

Unfortunately we don't have that luxury in my opinion, we have to play our best team week after week no matter what otherwise we simply won't survive in the PL.

Edited Thursday at 12:57 by Oldandtired

[saintant]

39 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

 

I don't disagree with you on principle, but it's pretty difficult to say whether it's justified or not without knowing exactly what he's done. 

There are loads of examples of players in all sports who had the ability, but where that on it's own wasn't enough to trump the negative effect they had on the team in other ways. 

In rugby the All Blacks talk about the No Dickheads rule - it doesn't matter how good you are, no-one's bigger than the team, and if you're not felt to be working together towards the same goal as everyone else, you're not getting picked. The other players actually have a big say in that, and help to enforce it. 

Alex Ferguson used to dump otherwise excellent players all the time if they stepped outside the rules he had set for what he expected from his players in terms of behaviour and attitude towards the team. 

The point is that in a team sport there's a lot more to whether you deserve to get picked for that team or not than simply how good you are at the sport in question, especially at the elite level.  

But as I say, as we don't know what he's done (or is meant to have done), it's very hard to make a judgment as to whether the response is justified or not, and those saying 'just pick him whatever' are misunderstanding how the dynamics work in team sport. 

 

Just read an article in which RM states he has no issues with ABK or Onuachu and they are both training hard. When asked why neither were in the squad for Everton he said the players he selected were right for what we needed in that particular game. As the COT say, 'make of that what you will'

[hypochondriac]

47 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

 

I don't disagree with you on principle, but it's pretty difficult to say whether it's justified or not without knowing exactly what he's done. 

There are loads of examples of players in all sports who had the ability, but where that on it's own wasn't enough to trump the negative effect they had on the team in other ways. 

In rugby the All Blacks talk about the No Dickheads rule - it doesn't matter how good you are, no-one's bigger than the team, and if you're not felt to be working together towards the same goal as everyone else, you're not getting picked. The other players actually have a big say in that, and help to enforce it. 

Alex Ferguson used to dump otherwise excellent players all the time if they stepped outside the rules he had set for what he expected from his players in terms of behaviour and attitude towards the team. 

The point is that in a team sport there's a lot more to whether you deserve to get picked for that team or not than simply how good you are at the sport in question, especially at the elite level.  

But as I say, as we don't know what he's done (or is meant to have done), it's very hard to make a judgment as to whether the response is justified or not, and those saying 'just pick him whatever' are misunderstanding how the dynamics work in team sport. 

 

The difference is that Ferguson had the luxury of choosing almost whoever he wanted for his team. Our potential alternative to knock picking ABK is possibly starting someone like wood in a Premier league game at some point which is surely motivation enough to try to mend any fences here. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Just read an article in which RM states he has no issues with ABK or Onuachu and they are both training hard. When asked why neither were in the squad for Everton he said the players he selected were right for what we needed in that particular game. As the COT say, 'make of that what you will'

Perhaps it’s not Martin specifically that has an issue with ABK. Perhaps there are contractual or other business related reasons why he’s not being picked/played? Anyway, even if it’s something he’s said or done, Russ isn’t going to just fess up to the media that the guy is a bad’ un…that could knock a large chunk off his re-sale value.

[derry]

Possibly doesn't pass back to the goalkeeper enough. Passing out from the back plays havoc with the meaningless possession percentage. Imagine the disaster of him passing forward to Dibling who goes on a run and scores, that's only one pass we don't want that.

[ErwinK1961]

ABK was a bad egg in our last relegation season.

He was given the opportunity to knuckle down and be involved last season, he wanted nothing to do with it and wanted out. No one would pay what we wanted, he (and we) ran out of options and ended up on loan at PSV.

Same happened start of this pre-season, again he wanted out. Club lowered asking price to try and get a sale, again not a huge amount of interest. Eventually they thought sale was happening but as we all know it fell through and there were no other offers club was willing to accept. 

He’s been given two opportunities to knuckle down and muck in, twice he’s snubbed it. Now he’s got nowhere else to turn until January and his careers on the wain.

Who knows, maybe the penny will drop with him and he’ll realise his best bet is to be invested in the team. But up to now his attitude sucks, putting a post on instagram when he has literally nowhere else to turn, isn’t going to change that.

If he does want to sort himself out, it would be a big plus as he’s clearly got ability. But he’s also not worth comprising team spirit for in my opinion, he isn’t going to be the difference maker in keeping us up. 

[wild-saint]

17 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

In other words, it's a must win match?

 

Hard to argue with the tractor boy about that.

if that's the case we will go down bottom with zero points. 

[Orkney Saint]

2 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

 

I don't disagree with you on principle, but it's pretty difficult to say whether it's justified or not without knowing exactly what he's done. 

There are loads of examples of players in all sports who had the ability, but where that on it's own wasn't enough to trump the negative effect they had on the team in other ways. 

In rugby the All Blacks talk about the No Dickheads rule - it doesn't matter how good you are, no-one's bigger than the team, and if you're not felt to be working together towards the same goal as everyone else, you're not getting picked. The other players actually have a big say in that, and help to enforce it. 

Alex Ferguson used to dump otherwise excellent players all the time if they stepped outside the rules he had set for what he expected from his players in terms of behaviour and attitude towards the team. 

The point is that in a team sport there's a lot more to whether you deserve to get picked for that team or not than simply how good you are at the sport in question, especially at the elite level.  

But as I say, as we don't know what he's done (or is meant to have done), it's very hard to make a judgment as to whether the response is justified or not, and those saying 'just pick him whatever' are misunderstanding how the dynamics work in team sport. 

 

I would argue that if he was that much of a negative influence on the team, why is he still at the club at all? We've apparently tried to move him on with no success, so why not cut your losses and release him?

Meanwhile, he is still at the club and being overlooked for far inferior players, IMO, in a currently struggling team.

Reeks of mismanagement to me, however you dress it up.    

[Lighthouse]

36 minutes ago, Orkney Saint said:

I would argue that if he was that much of a negative influence on the team, why is he still at the club at all? We've apparently tried to move him on with no success, so why not cut your losses and release him?

Meanwhile, he is still at the club and being overlooked for far inferior players, IMO, in a currently struggling team.

Reeks of mismanagement to me, however you dress it up.    

In what way are you cutting your losses. You’d have to pay up his whole contract (unless he agrees to some sort of compromise) and you’d get zero transfer fee for him. It’d literally be maximum possible loss, we wouldn’t gain anything from it.

[Oldandtired]

19 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

In what way are you cutting your losses. You’d have to pay up his whole contract (unless he agrees to some sort of compromise) and you’d get zero transfer fee for him. It’d literally be maximum possible loss, we wouldn’t gain anything from it.

What are we gaining from the current situation, freezing out srguably the most talented of our CBs, talent which we are sorely in need of at the moment.

[Orkney Saint]

17 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

In what way are you cutting your losses. You’d have to pay up his whole contract (unless he agrees to some sort of compromise) and you’d get zero transfer fee for him. It’d literally be maximum possible loss, we wouldn’t gain anything from it.

I was talking from the perspective of ABK (allegedly) being so troublesome. Obviously there would be a financial cost to releasing him and that would be a downside, but, if he's as bad to have around as some seem to think/suggest he is, there would be other positives to be gained from releasing him.

We got zero transfer fee for him during the recent transfer window, and I can't see how ostracising him will increase his value come January or beyond that. At present all he is is a cost to the club, for no gain. Sometimes it makes sense to take a short-term hit to make a long-term gain, on and off the field. 

[SotonianWill]

21 hours ago, trousers said:

Left, actually (teams tend to play facing forwards )

Have you seen ours?

[Midfield_General]

He’s contracted to us until 2026 and we had a fee agreed with Hoffenheim in August to sell him for a reported €15m / £12.8m. It only didn’t happen because he failed their medical, which the club seemed surprised by and they subsequently made a point of playing him in the Cardiff cup game the following week just to prove he was fit to play. 

So he’s a circa €15m asset and his ability is enough for other clubs to still want him, so I suspect the plan is just to keep him fit in the background and then have another go at selling him in January, and I would have thought someone would take him then at that price. 

[trousers]

10 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

Have you seen ours?

Ha... The same thought occurred to me as I was typing that reply... 😁

[Disco Stu]

1 hour ago, Midfield_General said:

He’s contracted to us until 2026 and we had a fee agreed with Hoffenheim in August to sell him for a reported €15m / £12.8m. It only didn’t happen because he failed their medical, which the club seemed surprised by and they subsequently made a point of playing him in the Cardiff cup game the following week just to prove he was fit to play. 

So he’s a circa €15m asset and his ability is enough for other clubs to still want him, so I suspect the plan is just to keep him fit in the background and then have another go at selling him in January, and I would have thought someone would take him then at that price. 

Presumably, Hoffenheim identified an issue, possibly something that will recur and may require surgery. Medicals are risk assessments so the idea he can play 30 minutes doesn't prove Hoffenhiem were wrong.

We don't know the facts. Lets just hope that whilst he's here, our best centre back will earn Russell's favour and get back into the team.

Edited Thursday at 17:49 by Disco Stu

[Mr X]

23 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Well keeping it behind closed doors seemingly hasn't moved the needle. Not much to lose from his perspective I would imagine. 

Martin needs to grow up and put his differences aside bad attitude or not the boy is miles better than Stephens play him for god's sake!