New manager

[Maggie May]

4 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Ralph's atmopshere was INCREDIBLY toxic when things were going bad. Yes, he got plenty of support and love during the good bits but that's not what I meant. The vast majority wanted him gone after each 9-0, rightly or wrongly.

Jones was obviously not right but again, fans didn't help. I remember one comment on either here or social media a while ago said they they decided in the first 5 minutes of his first game in charge (a cup game) that they wernt going to support him. If that's not fans being part of the problem, I'm not sure what is. He probably wouldn't have been any of our choices but the fact is he was THE choice. The best thing to do would have been to get behind him. That 100% wasn't done. He had to go in the end but fans didn't help.

Jones’ days here were numbered as soon as the club put a mic on him during that training session.

[Dusic]

26 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

The squad only has about 5 or 6 PL quality players at the very most (Ramsdale, Suga (maybe), KWP (although not playing like it this season), Downes (maybe), Fernandes (maybe) and Dibling - I reckon that puts us at either 19th or 20th in the League, and WAYYYY behind anyone who was in this League last season. 

Yeah, its not really that difficult to grasp, is it?

To stay up we have to finish above both teams who finished above us and beat us in 4/4 games last season (one we have finished behind for st least 4 seasons) plus at least one team that has played in this league and stayed up for (at least) the last two seasons so have had now 5 windows of splashing PL cash.

Last season all of the teams who came up went straight back down.

Clearly from the above, and the fact we don't spend lots of money by PL standards, it is going to be very difficult to stay up this season, regardless of who the manager is.

We certainly should not be accepting of relegation at this stage of the season, but surely an element of realism is needed?

We were an unfortunate deflection from being out of the bottom 3 after 5 games and put in easily our best performance so far - not the time to be speed dialling someone like David Moyes who clearly wouldn't have the tools to do what those in favour of him would want.

All IMHO of course,

Morph

 

 

[Dr Who?]

11 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Surely if SR value staying up, then its going to have to be someone in the Moyes mould. Experienced, able to organise teams. Dare I say it, something like Everton have done with Dyche. We all laugh at them, but at least they have managed to stay up by grinding out results when it matters. When your squad is limited, you make the most of what you have. Pretty football goes out the window as results far outweigh the need of a performance.

I like the way we play, and would prefer to watch, and on the flip side we do not have the personal to play up and at them style. This change would mean we would need to make big changes again in January and probably just as likely to get relegated. 

I have said we need to stick to RM if we go down or stay up. Yes we are likely to go down, but would prefer to play the style we play in the championship next season. When we got relegated the season before last we lost our identity as a club. We have back our Southampton way that we had the last time we were promoted. 

We should stick with it, grit out teeth and get on with the season and hope out of all hope we can just about do enough to stay up, or at least get takeover by someone who owns a country! 

[SambaMaverick]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

It's not for hope reasons, it's for entertainment reasons - the hope is the hope of fun football as we'll never do anything in the PL anyway. Hoping to stay up is such a sad indictment on an individual I think, and shows someone that has the wrong outlook on life personally. Life is about fun and making the most of it, not hoping to be 4 bottom in an underwhelming and unentertaining season. 

Tbh, it's why the NFL shits all over association football. 

Is that the same sport where teams tank on purpose in the hopes of getting a better draft pick for the following season?

[Whitey Grandad]

11 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

They also score goals. It IS a few bad games because last season, he and the team did what was expected/hoped of them.

They don't score goals in this league though.

How many times must it be repeated? Last season has no bearing on this. 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

5 hours ago, Dusic said:

Yeah, its not really that difficult to grasp, is it?

To stay up we have to finish above both teams who finished above us and beat us in 4/4 games last season (one we have finished behind for st least 4 seasons) plus at least one team that has played in this league and stayed up for (at least) the last two seasons so have had now 5 windows of splashing PL cash.

Last season all of the teams who came up went straight back down.

Clearly from the above, and the fact we don't spend lots of money by PL standards, it is going to be very difficult to stay up this season, regardless of who the manager is.

We certainly should not be accepting of relegation at this stage of the season, but surely an element of realism is needed?

We were an unfortunate deflection from being out of the bottom 3 after 5 games and put in easily our best performance so far - not the time to be speed dialling someone like David Moyes who clearly wouldn't have the tools to do what those in favour of him would want.

All IMHO of course,

Morph

 

 

An unfortunate deflection? We were fortunate to get anything on that shot.

[CB Fry]

8 hours ago, Dusic said:

Last season all of the teams who came up went straight back down.

What happened the season before that?

[Farmer Saint]

8 hours ago, SambaMaverick said:

Is that the same sport where teams tank on purpose in the hopes of getting a better draft pick for the following season?

No, tanking is not really a thing - they may trade away players for prospects or draft picks, but funnily enough head coaches don't want to lose their jobs by tanking for the owners. 

It's also not legal, so they can lose the following season's draft picks if they do. 

Edited September 28 by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

What happened the season before that?

But the relevance is in the fact that none went down last season, further allowing for increased spending and maintenance of a PL quality squad for the 17 clubs that stayed in the League without PSR being as much of an issue. You seem to continously not grasp this point - I am assuming it's wilful ignorance on your part. 

If we stayed up this season we would cut out more of the Championship/League 1 quality players in our squad and replace with PL quality ones by increasing spending on both transfers and wages. 

Edited September 28 by Farmer Saint

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

But the relevance is in the fact that none went down last season, further allowing for increased spending and maintenance of a PL quality squad for the 17 clubs that stayed in the League without PSR being as much of an issue. You seem to continously not grasp this point - I am assuming it's wilful ignorance on your part. 

If we stayed up this season we would cut out more of the Championship/League 1 quality players in our squad and replace with PL quality ones by increasing spending on both transfers and wages. 

But the season all three stayed up they would have been up against an entire league of teams with multiple years of Premier League funds.

So no, I don't get your point.

Edited September 28 by CB Fry

[Farmer Saint]

37 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

But the season all three stayed up they would have been up against an entire league of teams with multiple years of Premier League funds.

So no, I don't get your point.

The season we got relegated you mean? Where PSR wasn't being fully penalised so teams could come up thinking they could spend without impunity? Last season was the first one where the 3 teams that got promoted went straight back down since 1998. That's not a coincidence. 

The way for teams to stay up now is to hope that incumbent PL teams financially fuck themselves. 

Edited September 28 by Farmer Saint

[CB Fry]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

The season we got relegated you mean? Where PSR wasn't being fully penalised so teams could come up thinking they could spend without impunity? Last season was the first one where the 3 teams that got promoted went straight back down since 1998. That's not a coincidence. 

The way for teams to stay up now is to hope that incumbent PL teams financially fuck themselves. 

So it happened for the first time in 35 years and now it is going to happen every season forever now. Clear.

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

So it happened for the first time in 35 years and now it is going to happen every season forever now. Clear.

Yeah, cos that's what I said 🙄.

And it's 25 years, not 35.

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Yeah, cos that's what I said 🙄.

And it's 25 years, not 35.

Sorry I read it as 1988.

You are saying that clubs stay up because other clubs fuck up, which is not the blistering hot take you think it is.

[Farmer Saint]

20 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Sorry I read it as 1988.

You are saying that clubs stay up because other clubs fuck up, which is not the blistering hot take you think it is.

Never said it was a hot take or anything of the like, it's actually been doing the rounds for a while. PSR helps to close the PL to new teams. 

Don't know why but you seem to like to infer things into other people posts that don't exist - this is the second time in two posts this morning that you have done it. Wind your neck in. 

[OldNick]

5 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

They don't score goals in this league though.

How many times must it be repeated? Last season has no bearing on this. 

 

but it does, we have basically the same squad who finished 4th Yes we have had additions but apart from AR we have got in basically top of the Championship quality players.

What do you expect???? We could easily have had 3 or more points had we had the rub of the green. Changing the manager is just another madness , the people dont learn its like Brexit part 2.Death by a thousand cuts

[OldNick]

14 hours ago, Roo1976 said:

and what our current coaching is any better?.........................................................................................

I believe it is

[sfc4prem]

8 minutes ago, OldNick said:

but it does, we have basically the same squad who finished 4th Yes we have had additions but apart from AR we have got in basically top of the Championship quality players.

What do you expect???? We could easily have had 3 or more points had we had the rub of the green. Changing the manager is just another madness , the people dont learn its like Brexit part 2.Death by a thousand cuts

It's baffling how many people can't see this. The quality of our squad is relegation-from-PL level. That is par.

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Never said it was a hot take or anything of the like, it's actually been doing the rounds for a while. PSR helps to close the PL to new teams. 

Don't know why but you seem to like to infer things into other people posts that don't exist - this is the second time in two posts this morning that you have done it. Wind your neck in. 

In 2023 all three promoted teams stayed up.

So an aspiration to achieve that (with an ownership that came in with explicit aims to establish us in this division) feels like something SFC should be going for as it is achievable and has been achieved, 2023 was last year.

And I am sure that as the season goes on, they will act to try and deliver that.

Edited September 28 by CB Fry

[gio1saints]

6 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

An unfortunate deflection? We were fortunate to get anything on that shot.

You will hate this but it’s Saturday morning…..That Ipswich goal apparently had an XG of .04 - it most certainly was very unlucky for us to concede from there. Just like the Rothwell goal we will not see one of those again this season. 
 

Having said that I do appreciate your existentialist approach to football- it’s all about the here and now.
 

Saints history gives us something to talk about and compare to other than the very last match in the EPL though - for some of us anyway!
 

 Our saints support is not based on just the here and now or last result after all- well not for most of us! 😇
 

Edited September 28 by gio1saints

[OldNick]

2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

In 2023 all three promoted teams stayed up.

So an aspiration to achieve that (with an ownership that came in with explicit aims to establish us in this division) feels like something SFC should be going for as it is achievable and has been achieved, 2023 was last year.

And I am sure that as the season goes on, they will act to try and deliver that.

last season I believe was the easiest season to have stayed up in my memory. All three were dire. Had we survived one more season, we would have stayed up last season easily.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, OldNick said:

last season I believe was the easiest season to have stayed up in my memory. All three were dire. Had we survived one more season, we would have stayed up last season easily.

As opposed to this year when the bottom three are fucking legendary?

So far, 3 points between the bottom 3 from 15 games. 12 points from 30 games from the bottom 6.  Arguably, it's even easier to stay up this year, but not something we look like doing.

[OldNick]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

As opposed to this year when the bottom three are fucking legendary?

So far, 3 points between the bottom 3 from 15 games. 12 points from 30 games from the bottom 6.  Arguably, it's even easier to stay up this year, but not something we look like doing.

FFS we are only a few games in. Whilst clubs may look at us like Burnley, Luton, and Sheff Utd I dont feel any of the others are as poor quality ass them. Wolves bottom! Come on last season they were dire. We are close to their standard squad wise although I think we are better than those 3

[Bad Wolf]

8 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

They don't score goals in this league though.

How many times must it be repeated? Last season has no bearing on this. 

 

They do though? They've scored 2 goals in his five games...Yes five in this league. Which brings me back around to the question of who do you want after the next manager doesn't do well for five games? If last season has no bearing and you're taking these five games in isolation, surely you'll be doing the same for the next manager?

[Whitey Grandad]

4 hours ago, OldNick said:

but it does, we have basically the same squad who finished 4th Yes we have had additions but apart from AR we have got in basically top of the Championship quality players.

What do you expect???? We could easily have had 3 or more points had we had the rub of the green. Changing the manager is just another madness , the people dont learn its like Brexit part 2.Death by a thousand cuts

I think you’ll find that every losing team could say this.

Even the top of the Championship is a long way from the bottom of the Premier League.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

They do though? They've scored 2 goals in his five games...Yes five in this league. Which brings me back around to the question of who do you want after the next manager doesn't do well for five games? If last season has no bearing and you're taking these five games in isolation, surely you'll be doing the same for the next manager?

I’m not taking these five in isolation. I can see that we are a defensive shambles and I see no evidence historically or otherwise that Martin can ever improve that.

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, gio1saints said:

You will hate this but it’s Saturday morning…..That Ipswich goal apparently had an XG of .04 - it most certainly was very unlucky for us to concede from there. Just like the Rothwell goal we will not see one of those again this season. 
 

Having said that I do appreciate your existentialist approach to football- it’s all about the here and now.
 

Saints history gives us something to talk about and compare to other than the very last match in the EPL though - for some of us anyway!
 

 Our saints support is not based on just the here and now or last result after all- well not for most of us! 😇
 

Good morning Gio,

It’s very early Saturday morning for me. An XG of 0.04 just shows how ridiculous Such statistics are. If XG were any use the actually goals and the expected goals should be a lot closer than they are. We’ve all seen the photos of our lack of cover at that corner. Was anyone surprised that they scored?

Anyway, taken overall Ipswich had many good scoring opportunities and it was no surprise that they came away from that game with a draw. You have to look at the game as a whole.

For me it’s not about the here and now at all. It’s about where we are going from here and at the moment I can only see one future for us. I have no faith or expectation that Martin knows how to defend at this level.

[Bad Wolf]

50 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I’m not taking these five in isolation. I can see that we are a defensive shambles and I see no evidence historically or otherwise that Martin can ever improve that.

But last season has nothing to do with it?

Or are you taking the bad bits from last season but then saying, for the good bits, that they don't count because they're "last season"

[Whitey Grandad]

32 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

But last season has nothing to do with it?

Or are you taking the bad bits from last season but then saying, for the good bits, that they don't count because they're "last season"

I shouldn't  need to explain this again. 

We are playing in a different league. One in which mistakes and defensive failings will get punished clinically. One that is played at a much higher tempo. Scoring goals is not as easy as it was last season. And he's up against more experienced coaches who are more tactically aware than him. Multiple substitutions when you're one-nil up?

When I'm looking at Martin's defensive record I'm going back over his entire managerial history. His teams leak goals. We can't hold a coherent back line, we pack our own box at corners leaving no threats upfield, we allow the opposition wingers acres of space to exploit, in short we're a soft touch and other teams are picking their lips in anticipation of playing us.

Last season we got lucky. I doubt that we shall this time.

[Bad Wolf]

35 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I shouldn't  need to explain this again. 

We are playing in a different league. One in which mistakes and defensive failings will get punished clinically. One that is played at a much higher tempo. Scoring goals is not as easy as it was last season. And he's up against more experienced coaches who are more tactically aware than him. Multiple substitutions when you're one-nil up?

When I'm looking at Martin's defensive record I'm going back over his entire managerial history. His teams leak goals. We can't hold a coherent back line, we pack our own box at corners leaving no threats upfield, we allow the opposition wingers acres of space to exploit, in short we're a soft touch and other teams are picking their lips in anticipation of playing us.

Last season we got lucky. I doubt that we shall this time.

I've yet to see a team have a good season without getting lucky tbh. This "got lucky" thing can be used to undermine any sporting achievement. Last season he did what was hoped of him. It was a success, whichever way you look at it. 

I'm sorry I just don't see how you can claim in one post that last season's success doesn't count for anything and then in a different post, claim that your angle is looking back at his whole career...They can't both be used.

[OldNick]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I think you’ll find that every losing team could say this.

Even the top of the Championship is a long way from the bottom of the Premier League.

Cant believe how you are panicking after being a Saints fan so long

[OldNick]

42 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I shouldn't  need to explain this again. 

We are playing in a different league. One in which mistakes and defensive failings will get punished clinically. One that is played at a much higher tempo. Scoring goals is not as easy as it was last season. And he's up against more experienced coaches who are more tactically aware than him. Multiple substitutions when you're one-nil up?

When I'm looking at Martin's defensive record I'm going back over his entire managerial history. His teams leak goals. We can't hold a coherent back line, we pack our own box at corners leaving no threats upfield, we allow the opposition wingers acres of space to exploit, in short we're a soft touch and other teams are picking their lips in anticipation of playing us.

Last season we got lucky. I doubt that we shall this time.

yep and aa squad of basically top championship players against teams packed with PL standard players. Christ it really bemuses how fickle the fans on here are.

You were all licking up to him in May and after 5 games you want to change the manager, How pathetic it all is. How many managers do you want this season? One every 3-5-or 8 games.

I myself was talking to Leeds fans after the play off final game saying they would have the fun season this year and we would have a miserable one. Im still hopeful we will turn it around

[trousers]

14 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Christ it really bemuses how fickle the fans on here are.

I'd always assumed fickleness was a pre-requisite for anyone to become a football fan...?

Edited September 28 by trousers

[OldNick]

5 minutes ago, trousers said:

I'd always assumed fickleness was a pre-requisite for anyone to become a football fan...?

I wanted to say stupid but I typed it wrong

[Matthew Le God]

21 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

It's not for hope reasons, it's for entertainment reasons - the hope is the hope of fun football as we'll never do anything in the PL anyway. Hoping to stay up is such a sad indictment on an individual I think, and shows someone that has the wrong outlook on life personally. Life is about fun and making the most of it, not hoping to be 4 bottom in an underwhelming and unentertaining season. 

Tbh, it's why the NFL shits all over association football. 

NFL lacks the joy of promotion and the potential peril of relegation, that isn't a good thing.

[James G]

4 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Good morning Gio,

It’s very early Saturday morning for me. An XG of 0.04 just shows how ridiculous Such statistics are. If XG were any use the actually goals and the expected goals should be a lot closer than they are. We’ve all seen the photos of our lack of cover at that corner. Was anyone surprised that they scored?

Anyway, taken overall Ipswich had many good scoring opportunities and it was no surprise that they came away from that game with a draw. You have to look at the game as a whole.

For me it’s not about the here and now at all. It’s about where we are going from here and at the moment I can only see one future for us. I have no faith or expectation that Martin knows how to defend at this level.

XG and statistics, in general, balance out over a long period of time, and statistically Saints are doing OK. It's all odd but it's the way it works. However, if Saints statistically deteriorate in the future, then we won't see everything balance out

The defending is down to the system. If you watched Chelsea, Brighton today the defending was awful. The difference is, they are both scoring goals 

I think there is an issue with nerves in the team. Now, if that coming from the manager then that is a massive issue. I think with the players we have, we need to stick to the system we use, but it needs to tweaked so everything is happening further forward. For me, if Russ is the issue with the nervousness and if he cannot tweak his system appropriately, then I think he needs replaced, sooner rather than later. As others have said, every manager has their level and this might be a step too far

 

 

[Dark Munster]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

NFL lacks the joy of promotion and the potential peril of relegation, that isn't a good thing.

Twenty years ago I would agree with that. But nowadays relegation is a financial catastrophe for most teams, unless they bounce straight up, and even then it's a massive handicap with PSR as we are finding out.

[The Left Back]

2 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Twenty years ago I would agree with that. But nowadays relegation is a financial catastrophe for most teams, unless they bounce straight up, and even then it's a massive handicap with PSR as we are finding out.

Not sure Leeds fans would agree. Twenty years ago relegation saw them disappear. This time round they nearly bounced back immediately and I expect them to this time. 

[Farmer Saint]

20 hours ago, CB Fry said:

In 2023 all three promoted teams stayed up.

So an aspiration to achieve that (with an ownership that came in with explicit aims to establish us in this division) feels like something SFC should be going for as it is achievable and has been achieved, 2023 was last year.

And I am sure that as the season goes on, they will act to try and deliver that.

Not saying aspirationally that shouldn't be what they're going for, but the PSR limitations we had due to our overspend on utter crap in 2022-23 means it's a very different landscape, and any previous small discretion that the PL would have allowed then are just not allowed now. 

[Farmer Saint]

13 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

NFL lacks the joy of promotion and the potential peril of relegation, that isn't a good thing.

But it does allow a fair playing field for all teams, which is infinitely better than what we have in football. 

[Walter_Sobchak]

13 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

13 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

NFL lacks the joy of promotion and the potential peril of relegation, that isn't a good thing.

But it does allow a fair playing field for all teams, which is infinitely better than what we have in football. 

The NFL has a hard salary cap... players are not bought and sold, but traded.

So all teams are under the same financial constraints,  every year.

Results in giving every team a chance to win.

Football on the other hand, is based on who has the most money and how well you manage that money. 

NFL season is much shorter, more competitive,  and more teams have legitimate chances of winning.

EPL is boring with only 2 or 3 teans that can win.

 

[skintsaint]

46 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

NFL season is much shorter, more competitive,  and more teams have legitimate chances of winning.

EPL is boring with only 2 or 3 teans that can win.

NFL is just boring itself though. Unless you just watch highlights 😅

[Charlie Wayman]

14 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

NFL lacks the joy of promotion and the potential peril of relegation, that isn't a good thing.

Where is the joy of promotion? Not much evidence of it on here.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Not saying aspirationally that shouldn't be what they're going for, but the PSR limitations we had due to our overspend on utter crap in 2022-23 means it's a very different landscape, and any previous small discretion that the PL would have allowed then are just not allowed now. 

Source?

[Kenilworthy]

1 hour ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

The NFL has a hard salary cap... players are not bought and sold, but traded.

So all teams are under the same financial constraints,  every year.

Results in giving every team a chance to win.

Football on the other hand, is based on who has the most money and how well you manage that money. 

NFL season is much shorter, more competitive,  and more teams have legitimate chances of winning.

EPL is boring with only 2 or 3 teans that can win.

 

However if we adopted an NFL approach in this country, with the same teams always in the top division, then it is likely that Saints would not be in it

[lambtiss]

Russell Martin Could Be Sacked if Southampton Lose v Bournemouth, Potter Lined Up (msn.com)

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

11 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

However if we adopted an NFL approach in this country, with the same teams always in the top division, then it is likely that Saints would not be in it

Who would make up the 20 top flight clubs then?

We've consistently been in the top dozen or so best supported clubs in England since we've been at St Mary's, probably still the case in this season's PL. Only Leeds and Sunderland can boast higher attendances outside of the top flight. Other than the elite, all the others are capable of being relegated.

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, lambtiss said:

Russell Martin Could Be Sacked if Southampton Lose v Bournemouth, Potter Lined Up (msn.com)

Clickbait referencing Football Insider which surely everyone knows by now just guesswork.

[Toussaint]

33 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Where is the joy of promotion? Not much evidence of it on here.

Absolute euphoria at Wembley. I think most of us just hoped we’d give a slightly better account of ourselves this season. 

[Wade Garrett]

9 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Clickbait referencing Football Insider which surely everyone knows by now just guesswork.

Weren’t they saying Eustace last week?