Reasons to be cheerful 1,2,6.

[tisspahars]

1) The "we just don't have the players to compete" line is nonsense. Man U and Newcastle will both be at least top 8 sides (imo) and we clearly more than held our own in the first part of those games. The problems that need to be fixed are maintaining that and adding some goals and defensive organisation but simply not having the players is nonsense.

2) A large percentage of what will end up being our best 11 either made their debuts yesterday and/or are still integrating which as we have seen takes time.

3) Tyler Dibling might, just might be a genuine superstar.

4) Whilst there is obviously a chance RM ends up not cutting it at PL level it is an undeniable fact that following last year's four defeats a lot of the people predicting we'll break Derby's points record were predicting "this clown will get us relegated to League 1" whereas he actually took us on a 25 match unbeaten run and guided us through the pressure of the playoffs.

5) It is an incredibly long season and it takes a long while for most teams to adjust to the PL - the Nigel Adkins team held (quite rightly) in such high regard by most on here started the season in a similar vein.

6) As the gap between the top clubs and the rest widens what you need to do to survive decreases. Let's not forget we had the shitshow of the end days of Ralph followed by the unparalleled disaster of Nathan Jones and yet under Ruben Selles (ffs!) we STILL had a sniff of staying up with a few games to go!

 

RM may not cut it, we may go down but it is way, way too early to think that is inevitable.

[spyinthesky]

18 minutes ago, tisspahars said:

1) The "we just don't have the players to compete" line is nonsense. Man U and Newcastle will both be at least top 8 sides (imo) and we clearly more than held our own in the first part of those games. The problems that need to be fixed are maintaining that and adding some goals and defensive organisation but simply not having the players is nonsense.

2) A large percentage of what will end up being our best 11 either made their debuts yesterday and/or are still integrating which as we have seen takes time.

3) Tyler Dibling might, just might be a genuine superstar.

4) Whilst there is obviously a chance RM ends up not cutting it at PL level it is an undeniable fact that following last year's four defeats a lot of the people predicting we'll break Derby's points record were predicting "this clown will get us relegated to League 1" whereas he actually took us on a 25 match unbeaten run and guided us through the pressure of the playoffs.

5) It is an incredibly long season and it takes a long while for most teams to adjust to the PL - the Nigel Adkins team held (quite rightly) in such high regard by most on here started the season in a similar vein.

6) As the gap between the top clubs and the rest widens what you need to do to survive decreases. Let's not forget we had the shitshow of the end days of Ralph followed by the unparalleled disaster of Nathan Jones and yet under Ruben Selles (ffs!) we STILL had a sniff of staying up with a few games to go!

 

RM may not cut it, we may go down but it is way, way too early to think that is inevitable.

I love your positivity.
However having watched Saints pre season and four games into this campaign and looking at the strengths of other teams in the Prem (albeit via TV) I reckon there is no way we will avoid another relegation as the bottom club.
I desperately hope I am wrong but even if we do avoid the drop, it will only be rinse and repeat next year.

[Gloucester Saint]

There are some valid points there but also there’s some key differences to 2012/13. We did have to adjust then too but the start Nigel had was brutal fixtures-wise. Also, the side had a focal point with Rickie, penalties meant goals with him, and he was superb on set pieces. A younger Lallana also added an unpredictability we don’t have now, and Morgan/Davis was a dynamic central midfield. The likes of J Rod took until the second half of the season to contribute but we always had goal threat from midfield including Puncheon as well. We need to get in the box more, first 30 minutes yesterday we moved it far quicker and looked miles better. 

Fernandes/Flynn/Lesley are automatic picks if fit/available, Tyler on the way to that. Forward areas are more difficult but get BBD central, disrupting defenders and creating pockets of space for Fernandes/Dibling/Cornet to get into.

[Dusic]

Whilst I agree with the OP on many of the points there are a couple of additional ones I would raise.

1. Probably because we have been a PL side for so much of its existence it feels like there is an enhanced level of expectation vs the reality of a team that finished 4th in the Championship. As an example yesterday we faced a team we didn't beat at home in the last 20 years where at times we had a very good team yet it felt like people viewed it as a good chance to get something. We were favourites to go straight down because we have one of the worst 3 squads in the PL. Important not to lose the context that we are trying to upset the odds.

2. The overall strength of the PL is massively underestimated. Relegation is already 3 from 5 at a push ( us, Ipswich, Leicester, Everton and possibly Wolves).

The likes of Forest, Brentford, Fulham etc have quality attackers and solid PL experienced defenders. Probably one or two of our players would get in some of these sides.

In many ways we chose a bad year to finally drop because of the strength of teams we went down and then back up with - compared to the PL last year for example.

Overall no need to give up and some good signs but so much is stacked against us that its really difficult and some realism is needed in amongst some of the understandable criticism. This definitely isn't a scenario where something black and white like changing a manager or swapping one player or formation is suddenly going to propel us up the table.

[sfc4prem]

Also, let's see this year as a Brucey bonus. Keep RM at the helm and maybe he'll develop into an excellent manager one day - he's very young indeed and seems to be learning if yesterday's line up and opening performance is anything to go by.

We all knew our squad wasn't prepared for the PL and that we'd have to do Nottingham Forest levels of business to compete. 

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, sfc4prem said:

Also, let's see this year as a Brucey bonus. Keep RM at the helm and maybe he'll develop into an excellent manager one day - he's very young indeed and seems to be learning if yesterday's line up and opening performance is anything to go by.

We all knew our squad wasn't prepared for the PL and that we'd have to do Nottingham Forest levels of business to compete. 

do you honestly believe the club have just spent over £100m on players, holding a huge squad with millions per year in wages...to just go down without a any form of fight...just to keep RM, who would have proven he has no ability in the Premier League?

[RedArmy]

42 minutes ago, tisspahars said:

 

5) It is an incredibly long season and it takes a long while for most teams to adjust to the PL - the Nigel Adkins team held (quite rightly) in such high regard by most on here started the season in a similar vein.

Not sure I agree with that.  
 

That team held the lead away at the Champions after 70 minutes before eventually being undone by City’s superior talent. 
 

We also held the lead against Man United until a very late comeback. 
 

The results might not have been there but there were lots to be hopeful about with that team, it was full of talent going forward but was let down massively by Hoovield, Fox and Davis being Championship players. 
 

This team is let down by similar issues at the back but has none of the same talent going forward. 

 

 

[sfc4prem]

4 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

do you honestly believe the club have just spent over £100m on players, holding a huge squad with millions per year in wages...to just go down without a any form of fight...just to keep RM, who would have proven he has no ability in the Premier League?

If they have an ounce of realism in terms of the players they have spent wages on - BBD and Archer, for example - then they would be wise to look upon themselves rather than RM.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, sfc4prem said:

If they have an ounce of realism in terms of the players they have spent wages on - BBD and Archer, for example - then they would be wise to look upon themselves rather than RM.

they will not be sacking themselves

[Saint Billy]

Playing a CB who is woefully inadequate and also making him captain.

Choosing a guy to take a penalty who has never taken a penalty over someone who has a record of 7 out of 7.

Bringing on 4 subs at the same time.

A team that mentally folds when going a goal down.

This is just one game.

Doesn't inspire me with confidence.

[sfc4prem]

6 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

they will not be sacking themselves

Obviously. 

[Teamsaint1]

We lost 4 in a row  this time last year.

this season is going to be really tough, and realistically we could well go down again. But I think we have a depth of squad  to at least make a go of it, and if we do go down it is important that we go down in good shape, with a side that will mostly not have to be sold off , either because players want to go, or because  of financial necessity. IMO the board have invested with half an eye on the possibility of another relegation,( BBD for example)  and they are probably wise to do that.

the next half a dozen games may well tell us a lot more about RMs ability to cope at this level. If we are really struggling to put anything like enough points on the board, he will surely go. But just possibly he will come through.

[Whitey Grandad]

I’ve seen enough already.

[Hodgey]

There is probably a team within that massive squad, that if picked consistently and with the right tactical tweaks stays up.

RM has found solutions before - but I’ll give him a few hints:

Stephen’s and Bednerak as a cb partnership will not keep us up - we know this as we have seen it before. Could you reintegrate ABK and/or build THB back up.

There is no way on gods green earth that BBD is a left winger, certainly not in the Premier League. Why not use one of the 5 senior left wingers at the club (all be it one is on loan)

Armstrong can’t score goals in this league (I think RM has sussed this one)

Archer isn’t suited to playing up front by himself, like Mara he cannot hold the ball up or link play, oh and like Armstrong he’s a player who struggles to score in this league. Maybe try BBD who could do that role or hope Stewart stays fit. Also now we have abjectly failed to ship Tall Paul out - why not have him on the bench for a plan B

Keep playing Les, Fernandes, Downes and Dibling in midfield - that is the right mix of creativity and defensive cover

Find a new set piece coach, properly drill the back four on keeping a line.

This team is worryingly unfit - many blowing out of their arses by 60m. no excuses for that - double training drills to get them fitter

Make Downes captain

even with that lot chances are we will go down. That won’t bother me - I’m not opposed to a yo-yo, what will bother me is ignoring some of the clearly obvious to everyone issues (above) and not be competitive. 

 

 

 

 

[Nolan]

I agree with the OP.

102 points still available.

We were beaten yesterday by a team with more inside knowledge about our defensive weaknesses than any other team in the league (thanks to Wilcox and Georgson).

 

 

 

[S-Clarke]

I think the difference with Adkins start is that we were able to compete. We went toe-to-toe with Man City in the first game and won a lot of admirers.

We also did the same with Man Utd in the home game, gave them much more of a game than we did this time. We did have Wigan and Arsenal nestled in the middle which was pretty crap, but we at least scored goals and looked like causing teams issues. We took until November to really settle down last time - but you could still see the ingredients were there ability wise, not sure I can say the same the same this time. We still have a squad full of lower league players really.

[Whitey Grandad]

59 minutes ago, Nolan said:

I agree with the OP.

102 points still available.

We were beaten yesterday by a team with more inside knowledge about our defensive weaknesses than any other team in the league (thanks to Wilcox and Georgson).

 

 

 

I think you’ll find that this forum has more inside knowledge about those than all the other teams put together.

[RedArmy]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

I think the difference with Adkins start is that we were able to compete. We went toe-to-toe with Man City in the first game and won a lot of admirers.

We also did the same with Man Utd in the home game, gave them much more of a game than we did this time. We did have Wigan and Arsenal nestled in the middle which was pretty crap, but we at least scored goals and looked like causing teams issues. We took until November to really settle down last time - but you could still see the ingredients were there ability wise, not sure I can say the same the same this time. We still have a squad full of lower league players really.

It was also a team that was a few key changes away from finishing 8th the following season. 

We’re a few key losses away from finishing 8th in the championship next season. 

 

[Dusic]

Feels almost too obvious to bother saying but not sure there is any  value at all in comparing to a season 12 years ago.

So much is contextually different whilst crucially the level of the PL outside the top clubs is very different and significantly stronger. Hence there only being a couple of clubs that its genuinely realistic for us to finish above outside of the ones we came up with.

[macca155]

2 points split 6 teams, obviously all is not lost.

Manager needs to up his game quickly or we are in trouble. The recruitment defies belief. Cornett and Frazer add absolutely nothing we haven't already got. Just blocks SAA in my opinion.

He has to play his best centre half (ABK) and sort out the left hand side.

Stewart barely has Championship experience, bit unfair to shove him in the Prem straight off. He needs to fight with Onuachu for that position up front.

Even with all that it's going to be tough but at least give it a go.

[washsaint]

I agree with @tisspahars - if we stay up this year that's an unexpected bonus.  If we go down we get to experience a thoroughly entertaining season in the Championship (yes, financially we need to be in the Prem but the Championship is more entertaining, more fun to watch, etc.).

We truly need to sort out our attacking play.....scoring once in 4 games and never really looking like scoring is the biggest concern.  Any mistakes at the back are magnified as we are so short of ideas up front.  AA, BBD and CA are all powder puff and not Premiership players so difficult to see where the goals are coming from.

Bring ABK back into the fold (easily our best defender) and I think we'll look more solid at the back.

[Dark Munster]

8 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

they will not be sacking themselves

Yes, but Dragan should. It's his money they are flushing down the toilet with their incompetence.

[SNSUN]

I'm still optimistic our new signings will bed in and are an improvement - Fernandes looks a prospect, Les comes with a big reputation and once fit could be the back line shield we need, Ramsdale is probably the best Keeper in the lower half of the Prem, Suga already looks good. You would hope Archer and BBD will start to show some kind of form at some point too. Add on top of that the emergence of Dibling as a potential first choicer, and the fact we kept KWP so far,  I don't think things will look so bad long term. Ipswich next week will show whether we have any business being in the Prem or not. 

 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

9 hours ago, Hodgey said:

This team is worryingly unfit - many blowing out of their arses by 60m. no excuses for that - double training drills to get them fitter

Make Downes captain

I noticed that yesterday. Even our new superhero, Tyler Dibling, visibly faded. Les was another. Up front Archer's press was slower and slower as the game progressed. Downes on the other hand was like a terrier to the end. Yes, make him captain.

[saintant]

10 hours ago, Teamsaint1 said:

We lost 4 in a row  this time last year.

this season is going to be really tough, and realistically we could well go down again. But I think we have a depth of squad  to at least make a go of it, and if we do go down it is important that we go down in good shape, with a side that will mostly not have to be sold off , either because players want to go, or because  of financial necessity. IMO the board have invested with half an eye on the possibility of another relegation,( BBD for example)  and they are probably wise to do that.

the next half a dozen games may well tell us a lot more about RMs ability to cope at this level. If we are really struggling to put anything like enough points on the board, he will surely go. But just possibly he will come through.

The difference was, we'd already won 3 games - we didn't lose our first four games.

[saintant]

10 hours ago, Hodgey said:

There is probably a team within that massive squad, that if picked consistently and with the right tactical tweaks stays up.

RM has found solutions before - but I’ll give him a few hints:

Stephen’s and Bednerak as a cb partnership will not keep us up - we know this as we have seen it before. Could you reintegrate ABK and/or build THB back up.

There is no way on gods green earth that BBD is a left winger, certainly not in the Premier League. Why not use one of the 5 senior left wingers at the club (all be it one is on loan)

Armstrong can’t score goals in this league (I think RM has sussed this one)

Archer isn’t suited to playing up front by himself, like Mara he cannot hold the ball up or link play, oh and like Armstrong he’s a player who struggles to score in this league. Maybe try BBD who could do that role or hope Stewart stays fit. Also now we have abjectly failed to ship Tall Paul out - why not have him on the bench for a plan B

Keep playing Les, Fernandes, Downes and Dibling in midfield - that is the right mix of creativity and defensive cover

Find a new set piece coach, properly drill the back four on keeping a line.

This team is worryingly unfit - many blowing out of their arses by 60m. no excuses for that - double training drills to get them fitter

Make Downes captain

even with that lot chances are we will go down. That won’t bother me - I’m not opposed to a yo-yo, what will bother me is ignoring some of the clearly obvious to everyone issues (above) and not be competitive. 

 

 

 

 

Is this true? If so it is one of the least forgivable things in football. There is absolutely zero excuse for our squad being less fit than any other team in the Premier League. I'm not sure lack of fitness is an issue and would be interested in other views.

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, saintant said:

The difference was, we'd already won 3 games - we didn't lose our first four games.

Try telling that to the *really* knowledgeable lady presenter on talksport yesterday afternoon who stated just that... #womenknowyourlimits

[Teamsaint1]

13 hours ago, saintant said:

The difference was, we'd already won 3 games - we didn't lose our first four games.

The four defeats in a row followed a pretty unconvincing start , two very late winners  and a soft pen equaliser would be one way of looking at it.

Things didn't look particularly rosy 8 games in, not least because two of the defeats were heavy ones.

I guess there were reasons for optimism then, and there are some now, if  we are looking for reasons to be cheerful. 

And , looking at Forest's excellent result on Saturday our start may actually have been harder than we thought it might be.

Who knows ,at this stage ?