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Jack Stephens is not the greatest

SaintJackoInHurworth

By SaintJackoInHurworth,
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SaintJackoInHurworth

SaintJackoInHurworth

Posted
Posted

I don't want to say any of our players is crap, but I don't understand Russell Martin's determination to make Stephens his captain and pick him every game.

  • Last season in the Championship he couldn't get into the side for much of the early part of the season.
  • He has had a part to play in most of the goals we have conceded this season.
  • He hasn't shown leadership - often being the player to fail to mark the opposition player

I recognise that he has a good attitude, in contrast to Bella-Kotchap for example, but ABK is a far superior defender and surely there comes a time when we have to play our best players and not the worst ones?

Aside from Bella-Kotchap, how must Wood and Edwards feel when they see Stephens selected every time while they can't even make the squad?

I personally think it is high time that Stephens was dropped - from the squad, not just the starting line-up.

What does anyone else think?

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Lee On Solent Saint

Lee On Solent Saint

Posted
Posted
45 minutes ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said:

I don't want to say any of our players is crap, but I don't understand Russell Martin's determination to make Stephens his captain and pick him every game.

  • Last season in the Championship he couldn't get into the side for much of the early part of the season.
  • He has had a part to play in most of the goals we have conceded this season.
  • He hasn't shown leadership - often being the player to fail to mark the opposition player

I recognise that he has a good attitude, in contrast to Bella-Kotchap for example, but ABK is a far superior defender and surely there comes a time when we have to play our best players and not the worst ones?

Aside from Bella-Kotchap, how must Wood and Edwards feel when they see Stephens selected every time while they can't even make the squad?

I personally think it is high time that Stephens was dropped - from the squad, not just the starting line-up.

What does anyone else think?

To be fair, if Woods ever starts a Premier League game then we are in even more trouble.

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Mixedkebab

Mixedkebab

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Probably for the best that he got the red and an 3 match ban, only ever been good enough as back up at this level. 

He is also not wise enough to be a captain and leader at the back, which is what the club have been missing ever since Fonte/VVD left

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bpsaint

bpsaint

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14 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

We’ve all known for many years that he’s not premier league level. 
 

For some reason the club need to re-learn the same lessons over and over again 

He was once 4th choice behind Fonte, VVD and Yoshida. He’s now first choice. 
 

If there was ever a fact that details the decline of this club it’s that.

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SaintNewForest

SaintNewForest

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1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The start of our unbeaten run last season coincided with him getting injured. 

Just saying.

Except it didn't though, did it? He were trounced 5-0 by Sunderland, and 4-0 be Leicester before losing to Ipswich and Middlesbrough in the first 4 games of his injury ... 

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Holmes_and_Watson

Holmes_and_Watson

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None of our players are the greatest. If any of them looked remotely like being anywhere close to that, they wouldn't be playing in our team. They'd have moved on, be looking to move on a free or SR would have sold them.

Stephens is a PL squad player. He's had good games in the past, and he's had games where an error has been costly. At a guess, like many players playing in similar sides to ours (and a few higher up too).

He gets a bump into teams because he brings vocal leadership to a squad that had none of it. He's also versatile in Martin's systems - whether 3 CBs, filling in as cover to inverted fullbacks or in pushing into midfield when the side desperately need some forward momentum.

It's perfectly reasonable to argue about errors. Or when the systems he's brought into the team to support don't work and no one in the side has done enough to change anything. Or if the point of the systems in the first place, he's playing in. Arguably we've got a bit more leadership from some of the others now, and should have in Ramsdale too.

Personally, I'd be playing Bedders and THB in a back 4, as I think THB would settle into it. Or at least give Stephens and others a clear opportunity to get into the side. Stephens, as 3rd choice (since no ABK too likely), would still have a considerable role to play.

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Football Special

Football Special

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2 hours ago, redkeith said:

3 match ban. Let's hope they keep so e clean sheets in the mext 3.

Is it Everton, Ipswich, Bournemouth? 

Definitely games we need to show we can actually defend in , a chance to play without pressure of including Stephens. I personally don't think he's that bad to be honest. 

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Football Special

Football Special

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6 minutes ago, SaintNewForest said:

Except it didn't though, did it? He were trounced 5-0 by Sunderland, and 4-0 be Leicester before losing to Ipswich and Middlesbrough in the first 4 games of his injury ... 

Thanks for calling out misinformation like that post, so many clueless fans who would repeat it and become fact, plonker next to me cheered when Stepehens got sent off today unbelievable 

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SaintNewForest

SaintNewForest

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3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Exactly. What level do people think our reserve centre halves should be. It’s not his fault he’s playing week in week out, that’s on Lego 

 

Didn't you know? It's Stephens fault that he gets picked. It's Stephens fault that our attack are toothless. It's Stephens fault we play the way we do. It's Stephens fault Archer missed a penalty. Etc etc.

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beatlesaint

beatlesaint

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18 minutes ago, SaintNewForest said:

 

Didn't you know? It's Stephens fault that he gets picked. It's Stephens fault that our attack are toothless. It's Stephens fault we play the way we do. It's Stephens fault Archer missed a penalty. Etc etc.

Don’t be a twat, nobody is saying it’s Stephens fault he’s picked. It’s totally on the manager, we all know that, we aren’t fkin stupid pal

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Football Special

Football Special

Posted
Posted
Just now, beatlesaint said:

Don’t be a twat, nobody is saying it’s Stephens fault he’s picked. It’s totally on the manager, we all know that, we aren’t fkin stupid pal

Not sure, bloke near me today was Stephens this and Stephens that, cheered when he was sent off, must be a coping mechanism to deflect from the defeat, just blame Stephens 

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Saint_clark

Saint_clark

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1 hour ago, SaintNewForest said:

Except it didn't though, did it? He were trounced 5-0 by Sunderland, and 4-0 be Leicester before losing to Ipswich and Middlesbrough in the first 4 games of his injury ... 

And then it turned around after a spell of him being out of the side.

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derry

derry

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I don't trust Jack Stephens. Firstly he is a ball watcher to the exclusion of doing his job so loses his mark. He is prone to stupid passes dropping others in it. Today in a back four he left his position and pushed into midfield, that drew KWP out of position into the middle to try and cover Bednarek. The ball was lost and hit out to the right , Utd attacked. KWP was dragged out, luckily we got players back, Stephens tried but didn't make it, really poor judgement on his part. I really don't see that playing to that standard he can be captain.

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Gloucester Saint

Gloucester Saint

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It’s not just about Jack, or any individuals. We need to defend as a team, as we did under WGS, and that starts from the forwards and midfield helping the wing backs stopping crosses coming in. We got away with it last year because the quality of the delivery isn’t as punishing. Jack let his people run today and we know his limitations but since Ronald crosses and longer range shots have come in unopposed more or less, and that is down to lack of standards within the club and coaches. The squad must be far fitter with that, Poch type double training sessions to return please. 

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Orkney Saint

Orkney Saint

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Jack Stephen’s is not Premier League level. To have him as captain too, well that just baffles me. I genuinely wonder what effect it has on the rest of the squad seeing him as captain and getting picked every week. What message does it send to them? 

Obviously I don’t know the guy and he may be a decent fella, but he is simply not good enough for this level, IMO. 

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beatlesaint

beatlesaint

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Orkney Saint said:

Jack Stephen’s is not Premier League level. To have him as captain too, well that just baffles me. I genuinely wonder what effect it has on the rest of the squad seeing him as captain and getting picked every week. What message does it send to them? 

Obviously I don’t know the guy and he may be a decent fella, but he is simply not good enough for this level, IMO. 

He’s a great guy, I believe RM has referred to him as a beautiful human being……which is kind of creepy !!

 

But a Premier League first choice central defender he most definitely is NOT !!

Edited by beatlesaint
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Miltonaggro

Miltonaggro

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46 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

He’s a great guy, I believe RM has referred to him as a beautiful human being……which is kind of creepy !!

 

But a Premier League first choice central defender he most definitely is NOT !!

I think Martin sees a lot of himself as a player in Stephens, similar attributes and ceiling. 

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Smirking_Saint

Smirking_Saint

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18 hours ago, SaintNewForest said:

 

Didn't you know? It's Stephens fault that he gets picked. It's Stephens fault that our attack are toothless. It's Stephens fault we play the way we do. It's Stephens fault Archer missed a penalty. Etc etc.

Morning Jack

Hope you enjoy your time off mate

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Smirking_Saint

Smirking_Saint

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Its nothing i haven’t said before on here, no hate towards jack, he’s clearly a committed professional but he just isn’t up to the task, ultimately the wrong captain choice last year and its still costing us now

He is purely a reactive defender, unable to see danger forming which is why he is caught out and makes lunges etc, add to that the fact he has failed to form a solid partnership with anyone in a back four before, we saw JS/JB under Ralf’s tenure and it resulted in Jack falling out of contention

His issues are hidden by the fact he can be a progressive passer, but unfortunately this lends into him losing his position and causing the defensive line to become unbalanced, his passes are at times the sort that can put others into direct pressure (Brentford, both goaks) or his runs disorganise the side as a whole (both this season and last)

Lastly, his inability to play in a back four has, imo, directly led to us employing a back 5, which crippled the side offensively and fails to accomodate THB (who struggles as a wide CB). Tbh, Ive also hated formations with 3 CBs, hated playing in them, hated coaching them and hate my teams adopting them, they’re only really functional if the side is exceptionally well drilled (some if the italian sides in the 90s) because it causes people to shirk the responsibility you naturally have in a 2 CB formation

Hopefully we can now go back to THB/JB in a partnership that looked so solid for so long last year, Jack is a squad player, and imo behind atleast 3 of our 6 CBs, only really ahead of Wood and potentially Edwards (im excited about Edwards future)

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

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1 minute ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Its nothing i haven’t said before on here, no hate towards jack, he’s clearly a committed professional but he just isn’t up to the task, ultimately the wrong captain choice last year and its still costing us now

He is purely a reactive defender, unable to see danger forming which is why he is caught out and makes lunges etc, add to that the fact he has failed to form a solid partnership with anyone in a back four before, we saw JS/JB under Ralf’s tenure and it resulted in Jack falling out of contention

His issues are hidden by the fact he can be a progressive passer, but unfortunately this lends into him losing his position and causing the defensive line to become unbalanced, his passes are at times the sort that can put others into direct pressure (Brentford, both goaks) or his runs disorganise the side as a whole (both this season and last)

Lastly, his inability to play in a back four has, imo, directly led to us employing a back 5, which crippled the side offensively and fails to accomodate THB (who struggles as a wide CB). Tbh, Ive also hated formations with 3 CBs, hated playing in them, hated coaching them and hate my teams adopting them, they’re only really functional if the side is exceptionally well drilled (some if the italian sides in the 90s) because it causes people to shirk the responsibility you naturally have in a 2 CB formation

Hopefully we can now go back to THB/JB in a partnership that looked so solid for so long last year, Jack is a squad player, and imo behind atleast 3 of our 6 CBs, only really ahead of Wood and potentially Edwards (im excited about Edwards future)

I agree entirely.

 

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Smirking_Saint

Smirking_Saint

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Sorry… I know Im going on, but to sum up Stephens as a player just rewatch the Zirkzee chance… he is directly facing him, as a CB thats your danger, he’s touch tight, Bednarek is covering the front post and Downes is screening the penalty spit area… all you have to do as a CB is ensure your danger (Zirkzee) is dealt with… he makes an effort to try to get into a tussle with him, he does that a lot, sometimes it has value, others not… Diallo beats KWP and at that point JS is literally just watching the ball, by the time the ball comes in Zirkzee is behind him, unmarked and has a shocking miss

That is dogshite defending 

The De Ligt goal, plays 3 players onside, although Im not solely blaming JS here, the whole set piece defence was horrific and De Ligt was being marked, for some reason, by Downes, although it looked like defensively we pulled out, except JS.. who was watching the ball

And then the red card.. its just a lazy lunge tbh

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SWLondon Saint

SWLondon Saint

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22 hours ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Its nothing i haven’t said before on here, no hate towards jack, he’s clearly a committed professional but he just isn’t up to the task, ultimately the wrong captain choice last year and its still costing us now

Agree with pretty much everything here, watching JS since the Puel cup run season when he had a run in the team with VVD out I've always felt he was at best a back up. He somehow always makes his defensive partners look bad as well though when you look more closely you see the problem is often caused by Jack 1 or 2 phases back like with the pass to THB against Brentford - he moved forward into a cul-de-sac and forced himself to turn back.

On the playing / coaching front I liked seeing 3CBs as a forward exactly due to that tendency for defenders to get in a mix up with zonal marking. I mean, you'd think professionals should know better but...

For modern 3CB play though, have a watch of Leverkusen, I know it's a bit hipster with Alonso being flavour of the month/year, but they are really bloody good. Don't understand why if the plan was to play 3CBs the staff couldn't just analyse their play and just copy it, or adapt it at any rate.

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disconnect

disconnect

Posted
Posted

Whenever I watch with non Saints supporting mates, they always ask who's injured for Stephens to be starting. I'm going to have to answer now has to be he's starting as we've never adequately replaced Lyanco! 

I had a terrible thought this morning - what if this shunts Wood into the team?! 🤣

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Turkish

Turkish

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Posted (edited)

One of the lowest points in recent seasons was going from a central defensive partnership of Van Dijk and Fonte to Stephens and Yoshida in the space of about 4 weeks. Possibly the biggest downgrade since Dixon and Speedie replaced Alan Shearer. 

Edited by Turkish
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SWLondon Saint

SWLondon Saint

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Posted
10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

One of the lowest points in recent seasons was going from a central defensive partnership of Van Dijk and Fonte to Stephens and Yoshida in the space of about 4 weeks. Possibly the biggest downgrade since Dixon and Speedie replaced Alan Shearer. 

Think that's a bit unfair on Yoshi, who while not on VVD / Fonte level was a 'lower-middle' class Premier league defender IMO. Also that season Fonte did seem to be increasingly and alarmingly error prone if I remember correctly.

I feel Stephens has this uncanny knack of making whoever he's playing with look crap! It's something to do with the way he loses attention and drifts away from whoever he's meant to be marking and then the other CB is left desperately trying to cover...

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