Saints 0-3 Man Utd - Match Thread

[Lee On Solent Saint]

3 minutes ago, SaintNewForest said:

Good to see the narrative about JS carrying on; I'd argue that THB is more deserving to be dropped so far as he's been our worst CB, to be honest but that doesn't suit the narrative that saints fans seem to have. 

Whilst I agree that THB has had a shaky start to the season, I don't think that playing Stephens regularly as a centre back is the answer. 

[east-stand-nic]

19 minutes ago, SaintNewForest said:

Good to see the narrative about JS carrying on; I'd argue that THB is more deserving to be dropped so far as he's been our worst CB, to be honest but that doesn't suit the narrative that saints fans seem to have. 

Well, it is more likely the case of the set up formation and tactics being used to shoehorn JS in that messes up other players. That is what I feel anyway. Let's be honest, JS is NOT PL standard. So why do we have to keep trying him and setting up in such a way as to accommodate him? That is the issue.

[saintant]

34 minutes ago, SaintNewForest said:

Good to see the narrative about JS carrying on; I'd argue that THB is more deserving to be dropped so far as he's been our worst CB, to be honest but that doesn't suit the narrative that saints fans seem to have. 

For me THB has always looked a better player when we use a back four - he seems not to be comfortable as one of three centre backs and unsure of his role. Play a back four and I believe we'll get more out of THB and the team. JS has been a good and loyal servant but we cannot keep picking him because he is not quick enough in both speed of thought and action and his awareness of where danger lurks has always been an issue.

[SaintNewForest]

1 hour ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Whilst I agree that THB has had a shaky start to the season, I don't think that playing Stephens regularly as a centre back is the answer. 

 

1 hour ago, east-stand-nic said:

Well, it is more likely the case of the set up formation and tactics being used to shoehorn JS in that messes up other players. That is what I feel anyway. Let's be honest, JS is NOT PL standard. So why do we have to keep trying him and setting up in such a way as to accommodate him? That is the issue.

 

1 hour ago, saintant said:

For me THB has always looked a better player when we use a back four - he seems not to be comfortable as one of three centre backs and unsure of his role. Play a back four and I believe we'll get more out of THB and the team. JS has been a good and loyal servant but we cannot keep picking him because he is not quick enough in both speed of thought and action and his awareness of where danger lurks has always been an issue.

Certainly not saying JS is the long-term answer at CB at this level, but if you had to pick a CB to take out of the team based on the 3 games so far this season, it wouldn't be JS. 

[Charlie Wayman]

1 hour ago, east-stand-nic said:

Well, it is more likely the case of the set up formation and tactics being used to shoehorn JS in that messes up other players. That is what I feel anyway. Let's be honest, JS is NOT PL standard. So why do we have to keep trying him and setting up in such a way as to accommodate him? That is the issue.

Beats me! We tried to rid ourselves of him once but that didn't work out as Bournemouth were no suckers and couldn't be conned.

Apparently Martin is….

[BranfootsLoveChild]

Was going to bite the bullet and pay £64 for a ticket....maybe I was lucky it's sold out 😅 Looks like TNT then!

Edited September 10 by BranfootsLoveChild

[Saint Garrett]

Squad is in a bit of an odd place right now.  Everyone is probably starting with 

• Ramsdale
• Bednarek
• Downes

The rest you can make an argument for/against

• 5 or 4 at the back
• Which 2 of KWP/Suga/Taylor will start? Very harsh to leave out either Suga or KWP but we need some balance on the left.
• THB & Stephens looking short of quality and confidence right now.  Could also include Bednarek in the same argument
• Which 2 of Fernandes/Ugo/Lallana/Dibling/Smallbone/Aribo will start alongside Downes
• Will Dibling be thrown in from the start?
• Diaz, Armstrong, Archer have all looked pretty ineffective, mainly due to the tactics.  Do we drop Diaz & Armstrong?
• Who plays in the wide areas? Will depend if its 433 or 5-5 formation. Are Cornet/Fraser fit enough to start, probably not?

Personally I'd probably go with the following, however may be too many new faces.  Will not be surprised to see Aribo/Smallbone start...!

Ramsdale; KWP Bednarek THB Taylor; Ugochukwu Downes Fernandes; Dibling Archer Armstrong

I just think we are largely shit when we play 3 at the back.  Bit of pace up front to try and get in behind Utd. Wouldn't be against Lallana coming in, as he still has that bit of class and experience about him.

There are still so many questions, and we have undoubtedly got a bloated squad.  

Personally I'm partly dreading it because I'm on a stag doo on Thursday/Friday then straight to the pub Sat before the game...!

COYS

 

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, SaintNewForest said:

 

 

Certainly not saying JS is the long-term answer at CB at this level, but if you had to pick a CB to take out of the team based on the 3 games so far this season, it wouldn't be JS. 

Would for me.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I’ll not be able to watch the game unfortunately, so it’s quite possible it’ll be a great game and somehow we’ll win. In reality though there’s very little to suggest Russball will win out against a much better quality side. Even if we go in at the break 0-0, they’ll quickly figure out how to get around Russball. It’s likely going to end up 0-2…perhaps more. Think Russ has until end October before there are serious questions asked about his tenure as an EPL manager.

[BarberSaint]

Team to play and win:

 

Rams

Suga ABK (can't remember what side he plays; it's been a while)Edwards Taylor

 

Big Les  Downes

 

Cornet Fernandes Larios (if fit - he can play and he's not a left back)

Archer.

Subs to come on in the 70th minute: Dibling/Lallana/SAA to replace the tired legs from all the pressing up front

Subs in the 85th minute to close the game out and not concede the midfield:

Smallbone Aribo

 

I shall now apply for the pro licence as clearly I've got this manager lark off pat.

 

[Wade Garrett]

46 minutes ago, BarberSaint said:

Team to play and win:

 

Rams

Suga ABK (can't remember what side he plays; it's been a while)Edwards Taylor

 

Big Les  Downes

 

Cornet Fernandes Larios (if fit - he can play and he's not a left back)

Archer.

Subs to come on in the 70th minute: Dibling/Lallana/SAA to replace the tired legs from all the pressing up front

Subs in the 85th minute to close the game out and not concede the midfield:

Smallbone Aribo

 

I shall now apply for the pro licence as clearly I've got this manager lark off pat.

 

Fishing expedition? 😂

[OttawaSaint]

2 hours ago, BarberSaint said:

Team to play and win:

 

Rams

Suga ABK (can't remember what side he plays; it's been a while)Edwards Taylor

 

Big Les  Downes

 

Cornet Fernandes Larios (if fit - he can play and he's not a left back)

Archer.

Subs to come on in the 70th minute: Dibling/Lallana/SAA to replace the tired legs from all the pressing up front

Subs in the 85th minute to close the game out and not concede the midfield:

Smallbone Aribo

 

I shall now apply for the pro licence as clearly I've got this manager lark off pat.

 

Pat who? Viera? He's not that much cop at managing himself...

[Holmes_and_Watson]

35 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said:

Pat who? Viera? He's not that much cop at managing himself...

Pat Jennings. The 'keeper we really wanted from Arsenal. 🙂

[East Kent Saint]

England adopting Saints web tactics with 4 2 3 1 formation,  with Kane as the Loch Ness Drogba 😄

[Harry_SFC]

10 hours ago, saintant said:

For me THB has always looked a better player when we use a back four - he seems not to be comfortable as one of three centre backs and unsure of his role. Play a back four and I believe we'll get more out of THB and the team. JS has been a good and loyal servant but we cannot keep picking him because he is not quick enough in both speed of thought and action and his awareness of where danger lurks has always been an issue.

Couldn't agree more.

[Whitey Grandad]

11 hours ago, SaintNewForest said:

Good to see the narrative about JS carrying on; I'd argue that THB is more deserving to be dropped so far as he's been our worst CB, to be honest but that doesn't suit the narrative that saints fans seem to have. 

It’s not a narrative. Stephens is not good enough for this level. THB has had a poor couple of games by his standard but he’s not been helped by Stephens playing him into trouble.

Stephens will never improve. THB will.

[SotonianWill]

5 hours ago, BarberSaint said:

Rams

Suga ABK (can't remember what side he plays; it's been a while)Edwards Taylor

 

Big Les  Downes

 

Cornet Fernandes Larios (if fit - he can play and he's not a left back)

Archer.

Really sh*t, well done. 

[SambaMaverick]

10 hours ago, saintant said:

For me THB has always looked a better player when we use a back four - he seems not to be comfortable as one of three centre backs and unsure of his role. Play a back four and I believe we'll get more out of THB and the team. JS has been a good and loyal servant but we cannot keep picking him because he is not quick enough in both speed of thought and action and his awareness of where danger lurks has always been an issue.

Even Van Dijk would be exposed time and again in our setup. That's why I find this talk of formations and fours and fives a bit wearing - the way RM is currently playing in the Premier League won't work and never will, even if we had Man City's side.

[SotonianWill]

15 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s not a narrative. Stephens is not good enough for this level. THB has had a poor couple of games by his standard but he’s not been helped by Stephens playing him into trouble.

Stephens will never improve. THB will.

Mistakes could be avoided through a better balance in defence.

This would mean disposing of a centre half, instead opting for a flat back 4.

Bring a proper left back into the team (C. Taylor) - KWP is good but his use of the right foot, cutting inside, is inevitably leading to us facing inwards and more passes into the defence. Not only is this not needed; it is leading to more possession for the error prone Bednarek and THB in recent weeks. 

 

This would mean sacrificing one of Suga or KWP, unless you wanted to play the latter higher up. 

Edited September 10 by SotonianWill

[Harry_SFC]

6 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

Mistakes could be avoided through a better balance in defence.

This would mean disposing of a centre half, instead opting for a flat back 4.

Bring a proper left back into the team (C. Taylor) - KWP is good but his use of the right foot, cutting inside, is inevitably leading to us facing inwards and more passes into the defence. Not only is this not needed; it is leading to more possession for the error prone Bednarek and THB in recent weeks. 

 

This would mean sacrificing one of Suga or KWP, unless you wanted to play the latter higher up. 

I've seen people leaving Sugawara out which is madness imo. Was our best player against Newcastle and arguably our best player against Brentford. 

[Whitey Grandad]

6 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

I've seen people leaving Sugawara out which is madness imo. Was our best player against Newcastle and arguably our best player against Brentford. 

Hasn’t he just had a long trip to play for Japan?

[Tommy Mulgrew]

Yes.  Played in the first game; an unused sub in today’s earlier win v Bahrain.  Not sure when he comes back to UK.

8 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Hasn’t he just had a long trip to play for Japan?

 

[woodsaint1]

                    Ramsdale

Suga       THB       Bednarek     KWP

             Downes   Fernandes

    AA              Dibling              BBD

                       Archer

Thanks for the 3 points*

* Smallbone will almost certainly play and we'll also play 5 at the back for some bizarre reason

[trousers]

12 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

                    Ramsdale

Suga       THB       Bednarek     KWP

             Downes   Fernandes

    AA              Dibling              BBD

                       Archer

Thanks for the 3 points*

* Smallbone will almost certainly play and we'll also play 5 at the back for some bizarre reason

BBD is playing as we speak for Chile in Chile, so I'd be surprised if he'll be deemed ready to start on Saturday (yes, I appreciate it's still only Tuesday but he's probably not going to be back at Staplewood until Thursday at the earliest + time difference/ jet lag to consider)

[saintant]

29 minutes ago, Tommy Mulgrew said:

Yes.  Played in the first game; an unused sub in today’s earlier win v Bahrain.  Not sure when he comes back to UK.

 

He didn't play against China which I thought was the first game?

[trousers]

36 minutes ago, trousers said:

BBD is playing as we speak for Chile in Chile, so I'd be surprised if he'll be deemed ready to start on Saturday (yes, I appreciate it's still only Tuesday but he's probably not going to be back at Staplewood until Thursday at the earliest + time difference/ jet lag to consider)

Hmm... BBD subbed off after 35 minutes... Injury...??

 

[Saint_lambden]

-------------Ramsdale-------------

-Suga---Bednarek---THB---KWP--

---Fernandes---Les---Downes---

--Dibling------Archer------Armstrong

Need extra protection if switching to back four which Big Les will hopefully provide. Fernandes and Dibling the creative sparks. A better performance but still come up short 2-1. 

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

Hmm... BBD subbed off after 35 minutes... Injury...??

 

Looks like it was tactical... BBD not a happy bunny...

(The Chilean fans don't appear too impressed either)

 

Edited September 10 by trousers

[egg]

21 hours ago, SaintNewForest said:

Good to see the narrative about JS carrying on; I'd argue that THB is more deserving to be dropped so far as he's been our worst CB, to be honest but that doesn't suit the narrative that saints fans seem to have. 

Yep. JS isn't good enough, but he's been better than THB this season who looks like he's struggling to adapt to the PL.

If you're picking on form alone, there's not much of a case for THB. 

If you're picking our best 2 CB's then there's no place for either, and although ABK is back training, I'm not sure RM will use him. Let's see. 

The full back positions are just as problematic imo. Suga is great, ditto KWP, but we look unbalanced with them both in the team. Taylor would give us better balance.

[Charlie Wayman]

19 hours ago, BranfootsLoveChild said:

Was going to bite the bullet and pay £64 for a ticket....maybe I was lucky it's sold out 😅 Looks like TNT then!

It's on Sky so a lot cheaper relatively and no dodgy streams or embarrassing pop ups.

[James G]

22 hours ago, saintant said:

For me THB has always looked a better player when we use a back four - he seems not to be comfortable as one of three centre backs and unsure of his role. Play a back four and I believe we'll get more out of THB and the team. JS has been a good and loyal servant but we cannot keep picking him because he is not quick enough in both speed of thought and action and his awareness of where danger lurks has always been an issue.

I think this is spot on and a great observation. If you are three at the back, there's an extra defender to keep an eye on when it comes to keeping the line and making challenges. It also means if you are playing out from the back, there is more likely a passing option beside you rather than in front.

Russ needs to think about getting the ball forward to midfield quickly and defending from there, so if mistakes are made you have that line behind to protect the goal.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

15 hours ago, saintant said:

He didn't play against China which I thought was the first game?

U r right; my mistake: I thought I remembered seeing his name when I looked up the teams last week but I was wrong.

[Disco Stu]

BBD desperately needs that first goal. I wish we'd just play 2 up front, him and Archer together not isolated on the wing.

Edited September 11 by Disco Stu

[egg]

8 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

BBD desperately needs that first goal. I wish we'd just play 2 up front, him and Archer together not isolated on the wing.

Where does the width come from if we're playing a back 4?

[saintant]

23 minutes ago, egg said:

Where does the width come from if we're playing a back 4?

Watch Liverpool.

[Turkish]

who else is excited for the return of premier league soccerball this weekend? It's match week 4 and the Saints from Southampton host the Red Devils of Manchester in thrilling tie which could have a great bearing on the 10th and 17th placed finishes for franchises. 

[Disco Stu]

29 minutes ago, egg said:

Where does the width come from if we're playing a back 4?

Depends what the formation is. If we play with wingers, I'd love to see Cornet on the left and Amo-Ameyaw on the right. I said in another thread I think we'd suit a 4-4-2 diamond. Ugochukwu anchoring the midfield allowing the others to provide wide support to the fullbacks in both an attacking and defensive sense. I'd expect Suga and KWP to be important attacking outlets whether we're playing 4 at the back or not. Whatever the system is, we can't persist with having our two most forward players so isolated from one another with nobody central.

Edited September 11 by Disco Stu

[egg]

5 minutes ago, saintant said:

Watch Liverpool.

We're not Liverpool. 

Where does our width come from if we play a back 4 and 2 up top? 

[saintant]

1 hour ago, egg said:

We're not Liverpool. 

Where does our width come from if we play a back 4 and 2 up top? 

No, we're not Liverpool - doesn't mean we can't play the same way they do. Accept we won't be as good but we can play as they do which is 4 at the back with width in a 4-2-3-1 formation. It's what we should try in my opinion but RM won't see it that way.

Edited September 11 by saintant

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Depends what the formation is. If we play with wingers, I'd love to see Cornet on the left and Amo-Ameyaw on the right. I said in another thread I think we'd suit a 4-4-2 diamond. Ugochukwu anchoring the midfield allowing the others to provide wide support to the fullbacks. I'd expect Suga and KWP to be important attacking outlets whether we're playing 4 at the back or not. Whatever the system is, we can't persist with having our two most forward players so isolated from one another with nobody central.

There's no width in a diamond. The danger with that formation is that the deep midfielder drops in to make a back 3 and in reality the formation becomes a 352. 

There is no proper width if we play 2 up top unless we play a back 3 which we all seek to accept ain't working. 

For me the solution is a 433 with the wide man tucking in making a 2 up top when the ball is on the other wing. That way we can play 2 midfielders sitting deeper, and 1 getting forward, and the full backs having licence to get upfield knowing there's midfield cover. 

[Disco Stu]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

There's no width in a diamond. The danger with that formation is that the deep midfielder drops in to make a back 3 and in reality the formation becomes a 352. 

There is no proper width if we play 2 up top unless we play a back 3 which we all seek to accept ain't working. 

For me the solution is a 433 with the wide man tucking in making a 2 up top when the ball is on the other wing. That way we can play 2 midfielders sitting deeper, and 1 getting forward, and the full backs having licence to get upfield knowing there's midfield cover. 

Presumably that's a 4-3-3 with two wingers providing the width so we end up with 1 in the middle. If we wanted to do that, we would have signed a CF. We have nobody that's successfully played as a lone CF. Archer, BBD and Armstrong all thrive playing off somebody else. Ross Stewart is not somebody we can rely on this season after such a long outlay (plus he's never played at this level).

I'm interested to know what formation Russell switched to when he switched to a back 4 against Brentford. Dibling and Fernandes seemed to be providing a lot of the wide support for our attacking fullbacks. It looked like a front two of Archer and BBD to me then.

Edited September 11 by Disco Stu

[danjosaint]

I'd rather see us set up 4231 than a 433, I think with our squad this suits us better and also gives us the protection and width 

[64saint]

On 08/09/2024 at 21:44, Green said:

Yes, I think it’s Man Utd, Wigan, Cardiff and Nottingham Forest since we were promoted in 2012 that we haven’t beaten at SMS in the PL.

Going back to the old Dell days of course we had many memorable games against them and it could be said that indirectly we were responsible for Alec Ferguson taking over as manager after we beat Ron Atkinson's  Utd in a League cup game in 1986 with Le Tiss coming off the bench and scoring twice in the last 20 minutes. ( I'd forgotten about this game until an article in the Echo today). Following day Ron Atkinson was sacked , Fergie took over and the rest as they say is history !!!!

Edited September 11 by 64saint

[Micky]

On 09/09/2024 at 21:39, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

So would I and I genuinely think with KWP/Suguwara (if he plays) and Fraser bombing down the wing and putting in telling crosses, we can do this and it'll be the 'Dutch Steptoe's' last game in charge of Man U.

Let's be honest, if he himself could pick one away game where he had to go and get a result to 'save his job' he'd pick us, plain and simple.  We've been woeful up to now and they won't fear coming to SMS one little bit.  

[Holmes_and_Watson]

13 minutes ago, Micky said:

Let's be honest, if he himself could pick one away game where he had to go and get a result to 'save his job' he'd pick us, plain and simple.  We've been woeful up to now and they won't fear coming to SMS one little bit.  

And that's when we will spring our trap! Well, hand the trap about a bit, try it out in a few positions, drop it when running into Stephens...but then spring it! 🙂

[egg]

1 hour ago, danjosaint said:

I'd rather see us set up 4231 than a 433, I think with our squad this suits us better and also gives us the protection and width 

There's not a lot of difference between a 4231 and a 433 where 2 men sit deeper and one midfielder plays more attacking. Both systems have 2 men wide and 1 through the middle. Either or for me. 

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, egg said:

We're not Liverpool. 

Where does our width come from if we play a back 4 and 2 up top? 

The pitch is the same size for everybody. 

[6ft8saint]

On 10/09/2024 at 11:38, SaintNewForest said:

 

 

Certainly not saying JS is the long-term answer at CB at this level, but if you had to pick a CB to take out of the team based on the 3 games so far this season, it wouldn't be JS. 

I want what you've been drinking.... Just cause the others have been shit doesn't make him good. He just hasn't been as shit. He has been the main reason for most of the goals conceded this season. Got a goal offsided by interfering. I think they need some to sell popcorn in the Itchen stand so couldn't He do that? Or failing that could he do something with Sammy and Mary. He's a clown.

[danjosaint]

With the 433 if in defensive form you generally have 1 cdm with 2 cm ideally box to box which I'm not sure we have,  possibly in fernandes but we'll see. In a 4231 you have effectively have 2 cdm but need to be disaplined  so if 1 goes 1 stays, probably on 1st glance Downes and Big Les, so for me

                  Ramsdale

Suga     Thb     Bednarek   Tayl

            Downes   Les

Kwp         Fernandes      Cornet

                  Archer

Now I no there's a bit of movement ie like bringing ABK in which I'd like, Taylor isn't as good as kwp but it has to be about balance, can BBD or eventually Stewart play lone CF In fact we don't even no if Archer can and Tyler Could poss thrive in the 10 role but gone for Fernandes to start with, Cornet I'm not sure but gone for what I remember of him, for me this looks to get the best out of our squad 

 

     

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

22 hours ago, Saint_lambden said:

-------------Ramsdale-------------

-Suga---Bednarek---THB---KWP--

---Fernandes---Les---Downes---

--Dibling------Archer------Armstrong

Need extra protection if switching to back four which Big Les will hopefully provide. Fernandes and Dibling the creative sparks. A better performance but still come up short 2-1. 

Quite like this, though am expecting Cornet to start and Dibling to come on from the bench. Would prefer BBD to Armstrong...and you haven't shoehorned Jack Stephens in to the team!