Brentford 3-1 Saints - Match Thread

[Turkish]

As the commentator said after our debacle of a second goal “you can say alll you like that’s how we play, but play like that you’re you’re going to get relegated”

 

Edited August 31 by Turkish

[warsash saint]

2 hours ago, gammon cheeks said:

It started in the Chapel in 1885 

I love them as a nipper 

I love them till I die 

Le tissier is the king 

Mickey Channon too 

Our savour Marcus leibber 

We sing this song for you 

Alez Alez Alez 

Thanks

Words to the other new one sung at beginning of first half??

[HarvSFC]

If Downes and Ugochukwu can replicate what we had in Schneiderlin and Wanyama, it would be ideal. Would give us the protection we're looking for with the five at the back, would protect our fragile defence and would allow us to move up the field faster. I know Stephens wasn't directly at fault for any of the goals today, but he did play a part. It was him who received the ball in the midfield before the hospital ball to THB, who was then forced into a mistake as two Brentford players swarmed him. If that was Fernandes, or Ugochukwu picking up that pass they would have moved us up the pitch from playing on the turn. Fernandes did it well in the second half. Been saying it all year, it is something that last year's midfield couldn't do and it is something Stephens also can't do, meaning when they receive the ball, the ball will 9/10 return to the defence, allowing the other team to press us and try and force a mistake. We got away with it a lot in the Championship, but the Premier League is ruthless. Stephens is a limited centre-back, to get the best out of him you need to keep it simple, defend, he's a last ditch defender. This hybrid role is asking too much of him, if he must play in the side.

Martin's got a bit of credit after last season. It wasn't a perfect season, there were a lot of mistakes, but there were also highs and of course promotion. But, given Martin had at least played in the Premier League as a player, I was hoping he'd know the league a bit better than what he's shown so far. He needs to learn quickly what players are good enough and who isn't. Maybe its because we've all seen Smallbone, Armstrong, Aribo, Stephens and McCarthy up here before, whereas Martin's basing his judgement on last season, but we knew they wouldn't have it up here, and so far we're being proved correct. They need to be reduced to squad roles against Manchester United and the rest of the season.

My team against United would be:

Ramsdale

Sugawara - Bednarek - ABK* - KWP

Downes - Ugochukwu

Fernandes

Dibling - BBD or Archer - Cornet

If Lallana was two years younger he'd definitely be in contention too.

*If he trains at 100% over the next two weeks, may as well make use of him.

Anyway, onto the positives:

Dibling. Wow, what a player. He came on and ran rings around the Brentford team. I was hesitant to start him today, but that performance deserves a home start against Manchester United at St. Mary's after the international break. He's so good. Did everything a lot of our senior players are unable to do.

Ramsdale. Conceded three, but could have been a lot more. His positioning, movement and anticipation to come off his line today was very good. There were a few shots that left you thinking if that was the other three, it would have gone in, or been parried out into a dangerous position, but Ramsdale as the Premier League keeper he is made them look comfortable.

Lallana. Showed again that he's a class above a lot of this team.

Sugawara. If not for our disastrous finishing, he'd have two assists to his name now. The one at Newcastle for Brereton-Diaz and the one today that Armstrong has no excuses for. Took his goal well too.

Fernandes. When he comes onto the pitch you realise how limited Smallbone is a central midfielder. His first thoughts are to take us up the pitch and he created some problems for Brentford even if they didn't come off today, one day they will. Tries things others in our team are too scared to do.

But, yeah, that was a really poor 90 minutes. Hopefully a lot of learning and adapting will be done from today and over the next two weeks.

 

 

 

[SambaMaverick]

Embarassing watching those highlights back, Martin needs to find some shame pretty fast

And what the fuck is he smiling at in the MOTD interview? Of course it's the 'narrative' when it happens every game mate

Edited August 31 by SambaMaverick

[Cabrone]

If RM doesn't change course pretty soon he should be sacked off. He's delusional if he thinks we can play like that and survive.

This kamikaze defending will see us effectively down by Christmas.

[Saint Matty 76]

25 minutes ago, HarvSFC said:

If Downes and Ugochukwu can replicate what we had in Schneiderlin and Wanyama, it would be ideal. Would give us the protection we're looking for with the five at the back, would protect our fragile defence and would allow us to move up the field faster. I know Stephens wasn't directly at fault for any of the goals today, but he did play a part. It was him who received the ball in the midfield before the hospital ball to THB, who was then forced into a mistake as two Brentford players swarmed him. If that was Fernandes, or Ugochukwu picking up that pass they would have moved us up the pitch from playing on the turn. Fernandes did it well in the second half. Been saying it all year, it is something that last year's midfield couldn't do and it is something Stephens also can't do, meaning when they receive the ball, the ball will 9/10 return to the defence, allowing the other team to press us and try and force a mistake. We got away with it a lot in the Championship, but the Premier League is ruthless. Stephens is a limited centre-back, to get the best out of him you need to keep it simple, defend, he's a last ditch defender. This hybrid role is asking too much of him, if he must play in the side.

Martin's got a bit of credit after last season. It wasn't a perfect season, there were a lot of mistakes, but there were also highs and of course promotion. But, given Martin had at least played in the Premier League as a player, I was hoping he'd know the league a bit better than what he's shown so far. He needs to learn quickly what players are good enough and who isn't. Maybe its because we've all seen Smallbone, Armstrong, Aribo, Stephens and McCarthy up here before, whereas Martin's basing his judgement on last season, but we knew they wouldn't have it up here, and so far we're being proved correct. They need to be reduced to squad roles against Manchester United and the rest of the season.

My team against United would be:

Ramsdale

Sugawara - Bednarek - ABK* - KWP

Downes - Ugochukwu

Fernandes

Dibling - BBD or Archer - Cornet

If Lallana was two years younger he'd definitely be in contention too.

*If he trains at 100% over the next two weeks, may as well make use of him.

Anyway, onto the positives:

Dibling. Wow, what a player. He came on and ran rings around the Brentford team. I was hesitant to start him today, but that performance deserves a home start against Manchester United at St. Mary's after the international break. He's so good. Did everything a lot of our senior players are unable to do.

Ramsdale. Conceded three, but could have been a lot more. His positioning, movement and anticipation to come off his line today was very good. There were a few shots that left you thinking if that was the other three, it would have gone in, or been parried out into a dangerous position, but Ramsdale as the Premier League keeper he is made them look comfortable.

Lallana. Showed again that he's a class above a lot of this team.

Sugawara. If not for our disastrous finishing, he'd have two assists to his name now. The one at Newcastle for Brereton-Diaz and the one today that Armstrong has no excuses for. Took his goal well too.

Fernandes. When he comes onto the pitch you realise how limited Smallbone is a central midfielder. His first thoughts are to take us up the pitch and he created some problems for Brentford even if they didn't come off today, one day they will. Tries things others in our team are too scared to do.

But, yeah, that was a really poor 90 minutes. Hopefully a lot of learning and adapting will be done from today and over the next two weeks.

 

 

 

Great summary, and completely agree regarding Fernandes. Made Smallbone look like an amateur once he came on the pitch, and he wasn’t even spectacular.

[Streaky]

Aribo, smallbone, Armstrong out. 433 with dibling, Fernandes, and archer. Not rocket science to see where our poor performers are. Thb needs to get up to speed too and quick.

[beatlesaint]

First goal Stephens plays a ridiculous pass back into the penalty area, why ffs?

Second goal he gets in Bednerek’s way.

FFS why do we have to keep putting up with playing this bloody liability?

[Andrew Watson]

On paper anyway we might have got 4 points from 3 games, however we find ourselves in 19th place , being totally useless in both penalty boxes and looking certain to go straight back down. I actually feel very sorry for Mr Solak who has had his pants pulled down again by the incompetents running the club. Team selections and some of the signings are totally bizarre and yet again we do not have a goal scorer able to hit the back of the net enough times to give us a chance. A total and utter shambles,we are light years behind our southern neighbours down the M27 and A27,how the hell has this been allowed to happen?

 

 

 

 

/

[Suhari]

Just watched MOTD.

WTF is Russ talking about?

Danny Murphy's comments short and brutal, and entirely accurate.

Russ needs a rethink over the international break. Looking tough already.

[SNSUN]

I see Sol Bamba died today which is sad - but it got me reading his Wiki page and Warnock once said to him ""Don’t be Beckenbauer. Just kick or head it. When it’s on, pass it, but if it’s not on, just put it up there" - a quote that I wish Russ would say to our defenders. 

[OttawaSaint]

Hopefully this will get sorted like when Ralph implemented that suicidal high line. Saints ain't a team to experiment with. Every goal (at either end) is vital. 

We've yet to give any indication we can compete at this level. Big 2 weeks coming up!

Edited August 31 by OttawaSaint

[SNSUN]

A quick glance at the table even this early in the season (which I know you shouldn't do yet but still) and you can see the clubs currently in the bottom 6 may be the ones likely to be in a relegation battle. Palace have only played twice of course and they probably have enough quality to be OK, so really (pending points deductions elsewhere) you are looking at a bottom 5: Us, Everton, Ipswich, Leicester and Wolves. There may be a surprise team that drops later in the season but in my mind that bottom 5 or 6 already are the teams we're up against to fight for survival. 

[austsaint]

4 hours ago, saintant said:

I think a lot of the anger on here today is due to disappointment and frustration at the team selection and the tactics. Having been really pleased at the incomings during the transfer window we expected to see a stronger and braver team selection. When we saw the team many of us suspected it would be a continuation of the abject display against Forest - we could see it coming and RM didn't disappoint. That is what has fueled a lot of the anger directed at Martin. I don't blame the players because they were used as cannon fodder today and it needn't have been like that.  RM owns today's debacle.

Yes, the selected team, the structure and the tactics, especially in the first half was frustrating and doomed Saints to a third defeat.  Playing 3 CBs once again put the spotlight on our midfield - Downes was good but it was embarrassing to see Smallbone so far out of his depth.   Airibo had a fair game, but he can't be paired with WS, especially while 3 CBs are being used.   Someone suggested taking THB and Smallbone out of the firing line for a while and then reintegrating them.   In the case of THB it's a good idea - he seems a bit shellshocked by the rise in quality and the pressure our defence is under with the Martin manifesto of playing out from the back, but there's every hope  he will bounce back and prove himself a very good Prem CB.    I can't see the case for Smallbone doing that.   He just doesn't have the attributes or athleticism to be a Prem midfielder and it's been painful to watch him being  ruthlessly exposed.    Martin's "loyalty" to players like WS, AA, JS and even Bednarek and Airibo has to be rethought, quickly.   To Martin's credit he made the right changes which sparked the side until the madness at the back took hold again.   Reverting to a back 4 also improved the side.     I'm sure if he had his time again he would not pick the same starting line up.

Lots of good things today among the gloom.  Dibling the most obvious; what a prospect and must be played for increasing minutes;  Fernandes looks a gem and he immediately transformed the attacking midfield.     Sugawara continues to impress and even though 3 goals were conceded, Ramsdale put his stamp of class on the game unmistakably, and Lallana showed that played sparingly he still has the creativity and nous to provide attacking threat.

[Kermitzasaint]

Unfortunately once again Russell Martin has shown he isn't capable of managing at the top level. He can't react to what's happening in the game. Watching us deliberately pass backwards to bring the other team forward has become comical now. The commentators were scathing in their criticism which is good, anything to put pressure on SR to wake up and replace RM before it's too late. Saints now have a reputation and it's down to RM. It will only get worse until he is shipped out, hopefully along with Rasmus. 

We have a squad that can survive, but not with RM. 

So far the only entertainment this season has offered is GIO getting triggered in his hysterical adoration for all things RM 😅

[V.Johnathan.Wilson]

5 hours ago, Cabrone said:

If RM doesn't change course pretty soon he should be sacked off. He's delusional if he thinks we can play like that and survive.

This kamikaze defending will see us effectively down by Christmas.

The club's long term plan is to play possession based football going into the future, it takes time and maybe 1 more year in the Championship to start seeing the fruits of the endeavour, it was no different for Brighton they could've easily been relegated in their first year under Potter. Unless we find someone who can do PB build up tactics better than Martin between now and the January Window then sacking him off for a survival specialist would be a far worse idea for the club long term. 

Edited September 1 by V.Johnathan.Wilson

[Convict Colony]

No bedwetting from me yet, only 3 games and a lot learned about what not to do.

He now has the international break to reflect and work with the team but....

If he still selects the same players and we keep playing this same way the next 3 games then we are bang in trouble. 

However i dont think he will as he is not that stupid and idealist, i think we will see a new CB come in for stephens, big les start, fernandes, cornet, archer and possibly weeman and or lallana also start and i think he will give clear instructions to not overplay at the back, more a 1-2 then bang long, mid range balls, time to give the players a chance to play without a self inflicted goal every game.

Edited September 1 by Convict Colony

[Saint_Jonny]

1 hour ago, Convict Colony said:

No bedwetting from me yet, only 3 games and a lot learned about what not to do.

He now has the international break to reflect and work with the team but....

If he still selects the same players and we keep playing this same way the next 3 games then we are bang in trouble. 

However i dont think he will as he is not that stupid and idealist, i think we will see a new CB come in for stephens, big les start, fernandes, cornet, archer and possibly weeman and or lallana also start and i think he will give clear instructions to not overplay at the back, more a 1-2 then bang long, mid range balls, time to give the players a chance to play without a self inflicted goal every game.

Agreed with this. Yeah the games have been frustrating so far with the mistakes, but with the points total we'll need to stay up a slow start is not the end of the world. Martin should have enough credit in the bank for what he delivered last season to be given the benefit of the doubt here, I trust him to make the adjustments needed to give us a better chance in games. 

The gap between championship and premier league is widening. If we look better but ultimately don't quite do enough I won't be surprised, in fact it's what I expect to happen despite all the signings in the summer. This won't be enough for the fans obviously as most people lose all perspective and patience when it comes to football. 

[InvictaSaint]

As a point of comparison (while recognising the Premier League has become stronger in the interceding 12 years) when we came up in 2012 our first ten games produced the following:

W:1

D:1

L:8

We stayed up that year after Adkins was replaced with Poch in mid-Jan 2013.

[Football Special]

Does anyone still think we have a chance of staying up? 

I look at our team, can't see where the goals will come from

Can certainly see how we'll concede. 

Genuinely think we'll go with record low points. 

Would love to give this a good go , last hope is these new signings make a difference and having fresh eyes like Ramsdale walking back into the dressing room after defeat and saying what the fuck was that stupid passing giving away goals all about? Martin might start to listen. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Does anyone still think we have a chance of staying up? 

I look at our team, can't see where the goals will come from

Can certainly see how we'll concede. 

Genuinely think we'll go with record low points. 

Would love to give this a good go , last hope is these new signings make a difference and having fresh eyes like Ramsdale walking back into the dressing room after defeat and saying what the fuck was that stupid passing giving away goals all about? Martin might start to listen. 

Too early to panic imo, but playing the RM way, we have no chance.

I think this group of players, set up sensibly, and not playing suicidal football, has a decent chance. 

[Harry_SFC]

8 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

First goal Stephens plays a ridiculous pass back into the penalty area, why ffs?

Second goal he gets in Bednerek’s way.

FFS why do we have to keep putting up with playing this bloody liability?

Yeah but Stephens has been much better than THB and is a strong leader so deserves to play...🙄

[Fabrice29]

7 hours ago, OttawaSaint said:

Hopefully this will get sorted like when Ralph implemented that suicidal high line. Saints ain't a team to experiment with. Every goal (at either end) is vital. 

We've yet to give any indication we can compete at this level. Big 2 weeks coming up!

Bournemouth took 10 games to win last year. You absolutely can experiment at this level.

[saintant]

10 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Technically Smallbone or Aribo were taking his place, but how we were playing did mean that Stephens stepped into midfield when we had the ball. It's such a strange approach when we have better midfielders actually sat on the bench.

For me, we have to go back to something that makes a little more sense.

Straight back 4.

Lesley and Downes in the two central midfield slots.

Fernandes

AA - BBD - Cornet as a three. (AA's place up for debate with Dibling pushing). I think BBD, physically, is our best option as an out ball if we need it. That should give us more control in the middle of the park, and width through Cornet and the full backs.

That's how I'd do it anyway. We can still pay keep ball like that, but if we keep width (full backs) and have two '6's as such, we will have more angles. A lot of it is based on the receiving players providing the angle or the opportunity for a pass, we didn't really do that (we haven't all season), then we panic and it all goes to shit. Positionally it all looks a bit wrong at the moment.

Far too sensible an approach for Russ who is determined to reinvent the way teams with less talent play the game. He'll be found out eventually and his support will dwindle away as more fans realise the damage he's doing to our club and players.

[saintant]

10 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

The Martin logic behind that is that we get an extra player in the middle when we are on the ball. But when that extra player is Jack Stephens the advantage is somewhat removed anyway.

Pep did similar with John Stones if you remember, but the gulf between John Stones and Jack Stephens is enormous and he should know that.

Just RM copying Pep again.

[Sarnia Cherie]

8 hours ago, Suhari said:

Just watched MOTD.

WTF is Russ talking about?

Danny Murphy's comments short and brutal, and entirely accurate.

Russ needs a rethink over the international break. Looking tough already.

I like Danny Murphy. One of the best as pundits go and as you say he was spot on. Martin is a stubborn sod and I doubt he will change the way he wants us to play. He will ignore the 'narrative' of the supporters. I hope the club have a decent Plan B waiting in the wings. 

[Kenilworthy]

Really annoyed by security at Brentford insisting on going through our wallets. I don't think that is acceptable. They even asked my son why he had so much cash on him. He told them it was none of their business. Shame he didn't give the Ballotelli response.

[saintant]

8 hours ago, Suhari said:

Just watched MOTD.

WTF is Russ talking about?

Danny Murphy's comments short and brutal, and entirely accurate.

Russ needs a rethink over the international break. Looking tough already.

What did Murphy say? I think I could probably hazard a guess.

[macca155]

9 hours ago, HarvSFC said:

If Downes and Ugochukwu can replicate what we had in Schneiderlin and Wanyama, it would be ideal. Would give us the protection we're looking for with the five at the back, would protect our fragile defence and would allow us to move up the field faster. I know Stephens wasn't directly at fault for any of the goals today, but he did play a part. It was him who received the ball in the midfield before the hospital ball to THB, who was then forced into a mistake as two Brentford players swarmed him. If that was Fernandes, or Ugochukwu picking up that pass they would have moved us up the pitch from playing on the turn. Fernandes did it well in the second half. Been saying it all year, it is something that last year's midfield couldn't do and it is something Stephens also can't do, meaning when they receive the ball, the ball will 9/10 return to the defence, allowing the other team to press us and try and force a mistake. We got away with it a lot in the Championship, but the Premier League is ruthless. Stephens is a limited centre-back, to get the best out of him you need to keep it simple, defend, he's a last ditch defender. This hybrid role is asking too much of him, if he must play in the side.

Martin's got a bit of credit after last season. It wasn't a perfect season, there were a lot of mistakes, but there were also highs and of course promotion. But, given Martin had at least played in the Premier League as a player, I was hoping he'd know the league a bit better than what he's shown so far. He needs to learn quickly what players are good enough and who isn't. Maybe its because we've all seen Smallbone, Armstrong, Aribo, Stephens and McCarthy up here before, whereas Martin's basing his judgement on last season, but we knew they wouldn't have it up here, and so far we're being proved correct. They need to be reduced to squad roles against Manchester United and the rest of the season.

My team against United would be:

Ramsdale

Sugawara - Bednarek - ABK* - KWP

Downes - Ugochukwu

Fernandes

Dibling - BBD or Archer - Cornet

If Lallana was two years younger he'd definitely be in contention too.

*If he trains at 100% over the next two weeks, may as well make use of him.

Anyway, onto the positives:

Dibling. Wow, what a player. He came on and ran rings around the Brentford team. I was hesitant to start him today, but that performance deserves a home start against Manchester United at St. Mary's after the international break. He's so good. Did everything a lot of our senior players are unable to do.

Ramsdale. Conceded three, but could have been a lot more. His positioning, movement and anticipation to come off his line today was very good. There were a few shots that left you thinking if that was the other three, it would have gone in, or been parried out into a dangerous position, but Ramsdale as the Premier League keeper he is made them look comfortable.

Lallana. Showed again that he's a class above a lot of this team.

Sugawara. If not for our disastrous finishing, he'd have two assists to his name now. The one at Newcastle for Brereton-Diaz and the one today that Armstrong has no excuses for. Took his goal well too.

Fernandes. When he comes onto the pitch you realise how limited Smallbone is a central midfielder. His first thoughts are to take us up the pitch and he created some problems for Brentford even if they didn't come off today, one day they will. Tries things others in our team are too scared to do.

But, yeah, that was a really poor 90 minutes. Hopefully a lot of learning and adapting will be done from today and over the next two weeks.

 

 

 

Agree with most of that. I'd keep Dibling on the bench still but bring him on early. PL managers aren't stupid, they'll know all about him. If he starts they'll ensure he is chopped down early and marked into ineffective positions. It happens every game in every team 

If he doesn't start but comes on for at least 30 minutes, they will have to adapt mid game. That is much harder.

It's a shame Sulemana isn't firing. Players like that occupy defenders and give creators like Dibling space to play.

Saints are just too predictable at the moment. Too easy to beat sadly.

It will improve I'm sure

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

Really annoyed by security at Brentford insisting on going through our wallets. I don't think that is acceptable. They even asked my son why he had so much cash on him. He told them it was none of their business. Shame he didn't give the Ballotelli response.

Make a formal complaint, surely?

[saintant]

6 hours ago, Kermitzasaint said:

Unfortunately once again Russell Martin has shown he isn't capable of managing at the top level. He can't react to what's happening in the game. Watching us deliberately pass backwards to bring the other team forward has become comical now. The commentators were scathing in their criticism which is good, anything to put pressure on SR to wake up and replace RM before it's too late. Saints now have a reputation and it's down to RM. It will only get worse until he is shipped out, hopefully along with Rasmus. 

We have a squad that can survive, but not with RM. 

So far the only entertainment this season has offered is GIO getting triggered in his hysterical adoration for all things RM 😅

Nail on head. He really is a very limited coach/manager who hides behind this foolhardy mantra that he is going to turn the team into one that can comfortably play out from the back and then work the ball through midfield into attack to score beautiful goals. Admittedly we scored a few goals like that last season but against far inferior opponents.

[Whitey Grandad]

7 minutes ago, saintant said:

What did Murphy say? I think I could probably hazard a guess.

Something about “they’re not good enough to play that way. If they carry on they’ll be in trouble “

[Pamplemousse]

10 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

Really annoyed by security at Brentford insisting on going through our wallets. I don't think that is acceptable. They even asked my son why he had so much cash on him. He told them it was none of their business. Shame he didn't give the Ballotelli response.

Same thing happened at Newcastle. The one at Newcastle was far more thorough tbh.

[egg]

9 hours ago, HarvSFC said:

If Downes and Ugochukwu can replicate what we had in Schneiderlin and Wanyama, it would be ideal. Would give us the protection we're looking for with the five at the back, would protect our fragile defence and would allow us to move up the field faster. I know Stephens wasn't directly at fault for any of the goals today, but he did play a part. It was him who received the ball in the midfield before the hospital ball to THB, who was then forced into a mistake as two Brentford players swarmed him. If that was Fernandes, or Ugochukwu picking up that pass they would have moved us up the pitch from playing on the turn. Fernandes did it well in the second half. Been saying it all year, it is something that last year's midfield couldn't do and it is something Stephens also can't do, meaning when they receive the ball, the ball will 9/10 return to the defence, allowing the other team to press us and try and force a mistake. We got away with it a lot in the Championship, but the Premier League is ruthless. Stephens is a limited centre-back, to get the best out of him you need to keep it simple, defend, he's a last ditch defender. This hybrid role is asking too much of him, if he must play in the side.

Martin's got a bit of credit after last season. It wasn't a perfect season, there were a lot of mistakes, but there were also highs and of course promotion. But, given Martin had at least played in the Premier League as a player, I was hoping he'd know the league a bit better than what he's shown so far. He needs to learn quickly what players are good enough and who isn't. Maybe its because we've all seen Smallbone, Armstrong, Aribo, Stephens and McCarthy up here before, whereas Martin's basing his judgement on last season, but we knew they wouldn't have it up here, and so far we're being proved correct. They need to be reduced to squad roles against Manchester United and the rest of the season.

My team against United would be:

Ramsdale

Sugawara - Bednarek - ABK* - KWP

Downes - Ugochukwu

Fernandes

Dibling - BBD or Archer - Cornet

If Lallana was two years younger he'd definitely be in contention too.

*If he trains at 100% over the next two weeks, may as well make use of him.

Anyway, onto the positives:

Dibling. Wow, what a player. He came on and ran rings around the Brentford team. I was hesitant to start him today, but that performance deserves a home start against Manchester United at St. Mary's after the international break. He's so good. Did everything a lot of our senior players are unable to do.

Ramsdale. Conceded three, but could have been a lot more. His positioning, movement and anticipation to come off his line today was very good. There were a few shots that left you thinking if that was the other three, it would have gone in, or been parried out into a dangerous position, but Ramsdale as the Premier League keeper he is made them look comfortable.

Lallana. Showed again that he's a class above a lot of this team.

Sugawara. If not for our disastrous finishing, he'd have two assists to his name now. The one at Newcastle for Brereton-Diaz and the one today that Armstrong has no excuses for. Took his goal well too.

Fernandes. When he comes onto the pitch you realise how limited Smallbone is a central midfielder. His first thoughts are to take us up the pitch and he created some problems for Brentford even if they didn't come off today, one day they will. Tries things others in our team are too scared to do.

But, yeah, that was a really poor 90 minutes. Hopefully a lot of learning and adapting will be done from today and over the next two weeks.

 

 

 

That pre supposes that ABK is an option. Who's your back 4 if no ABK? 

[Fabrice29]

19 minutes ago, saintant said:

Far too sensible an approach for Russ who is determined to reinvent the way teams with less talent play the game. He'll be found out eventually and his support will dwindle away as more fans realise the damage he's doing to our club and players.

‘I’ll be right one day, I promise! Believe me someone!’

[saintant]

2 hours ago, Convict Colony said:

No bedwetting from me yet, only 3 games and a lot learned about what not to do.

He now has the international break to reflect and work with the team but....

If he still selects the same players and we keep playing this same way the next 3 games then we are bang in trouble. 

However i dont think he will as he is not that stupid and idealist, i think we will see a new CB come in for stephens, big les start, fernandes, cornet, archer and possibly weeman and or lallana also start and i think he will give clear instructions to not overplay at the back, more a 1-2 then bang long, mid range balls, time to give the players a chance to play without a self inflicted goal every game.

So you're saying, despite RM continually telling anyone who'll listen that he will never change his play out from the back philosophy, he will do exactly that? I'm not holding my breath.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

‘I’ll be right one day, I promise! Believe me someone!’

It's the football version of del boy's "this time next year we'll be millionaires Rodney". 

[saintant]

10 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Something about “they’re not good enough to play that way. If they carry on they’ll be in trouble “

As I suspected - pretty much what lots of us are saying.

[Lone ranger]

8 hours ago, Suhari said:

 

Just watched MOTD.

WTF is Russ talking about?

Danny Murphy's comments short

 

I may be pretty thick but I never understand what the manager is talking about. He uses a lot of key words such as brave and love but his actual sentences don’t make any sense and his analysis seems to bear little or no relationship to what we have all watched. Clarity of thinking and expression inspire confidence in a manager. Does Mr Martin really know what he is doing? Keep it simple stupid is a good slogan which we would do well to follow. I would like to see Lallana Dibling Downes Fernandez Suga start every game - together with a revitalised KWP attacking on the right side( his defending is not so hot). We made a crass error yet again in not buying a quality central striker but maybe Archer can step up. I am sort for Bednarek who is a good defender with a strong partner. Hopefully THB can get over this poor patch. 

[saintant]

6 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

‘I’ll be right one day, I promise! Believe me someone!’

Well let's wait and see shall we. In case you haven't been reading this forum closely enough more and more people are of the same opinion. Bury your head in the sand if it makes the noise go away.

[SWLondon Saint]

Had another look at the highlights after watching the last 10 minutes of the 1st and all of the 2nd half yesterday and a few thoughts:

Good

- Pretty much all of the signings we've seen so far are significantly better than what we had already. I actually think we have enough quality to stay up. Even BBD and Archer are clearly a level above AA.

- Some of our play in the 2nd half going forward was good, but with the caveat they clearly were on cruise control and didn't want to make too much effort at 3-0 up.

- RM made the right subs and shows signs of dispensing with his favourites.

Bad

- Several of our players still appear shell-shocked at the new level. AA and Smallboner look done. THB doesn't look comfortable defensively in the back 3. Stevens cannot step into midfield. Downes actually wasn't great either, too many wall passes straight back to the defenders which he could get away with at Championship level but not anymore. I think he's more of an 8 at this level, similar to Rice - he can't play as a single pivot under heavy pressure in this system.

Ugly

- Defensive transition was a complete mess. Leaving aside giving away the ball in our defensive third which should never happen, even when we lost the ball in their half, we seemed to have no plan at all about how to either counter press and win the ball back high, or to stop the ball while we transition back to our defensive shape.

- Playing out from the back - Complete mess. The formation is hindering the players not helping them. If RM wants to stick with a back 3, he should copy Alonso at Leverkusen and play with a double pivot (and also with 1 CB capable of either playing in midfield or as a full-back, but that's another story...). It needs a truly world-class player to play as a single pivot in the modern game as the pressure is so high. Our 3 CBs are too close to one another, there's no forward pressure on their defense so their back line can push onto our midfield, compressing the play, no long pass threat to stretch the defense backwards...the list goes on and on.

TLDR: RM looks dangerously out of his depth. I'm a football optimist, I like to think any team can play PB but the manager is failing at too many of the tactical things necessary to make it work. He has some credit but the same failings we saw last season are still in place.

[Butthole_Surfer]

Roger Schmidt has just been sacked at Benfica. Might be a great Plan B in case things don’t turn around in the next 5 games… don’t know if he might be out of reach but he‘d play relentless and direct attacking football…

just sayin‘

[beatlesaint]

55 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Yeah but Stephens has been much better than THB and is a strong leader so deserves to play...🙄

Oh of course, yes.....plus he's got a murial in the Northam hasn't he ? Silly me. 

[Convict Colony]

52 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I like Danny Murphy. One of the best as pundits go and as you say he was spot on. Martin is a stubborn sod and I doubt he will change the way he wants us to play. He will ignore the 'narrative' of the supporters. I hope the club have a decent Plan B waiting in the wings. 

People were saying this at the end of last season and he surprised many by switching to 5 at the back for the playoffs.

[Convict Colony]

13 minutes ago, Butthole_Surfer said:

Roger Schmidt has just been sacked at Benfica. Might be a great Plan B in case things don’t turn around in the next 5 games… don’t know if he might be out of reach but he‘d play relentless and direct attacking football…

just sayin‘

Great username 🤣🤣

Speaking to a Portuguese mate yesterday whose a sporting fan (huge fan of Matty F) he said benfica have started shit this season and they may have oversold players for once and they don't have the same quality to replace them.

[austsaint]

14 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Had another look at the highlights after watching the last 10 minutes of the 1st and all of the 2nd half yesterday and a few thoughts:

Good

- Pretty much all of the signings we've seen so far are significantly better than what we had already. I actually think we have enough quality to stay up. Even BBD and Archer are clearly a level above AA.

- Some of our play in the 2nd half going forward was good, but with the caveat they clearly were on cruise control and didn't want to make too much effort at 3-0 up.

- RM made the right subs and shows signs of dispensing with his favourites.

Bad

- Several of our players still appear shell-shocked at the new level. AA and Smallboner look done. THB doesn't look comfortable defensively in the back 3. Stevens cannot step into midfield. Downes actually wasn't great either, too many wall passes straight back to the defenders which he could get away with at Championship level but not anymore. I think he's more of an 8 at this level, similar to Rice - he can't play as a single pivot under heavy pressure in this system.

Ugly

- Defensive transition was a complete mess. Leaving aside giving away the ball in our defensive third which should never happen, even when we lost the ball in their half, we seemed to have no plan at all about how to either counter press and win the ball back high, or to stop the ball while we transition back to our defensive shape.

- Playing out from the back - Complete mess. The formation is hindering the players not helping them. If RM wants to stick with a back 3, he should copy Alonso at Leverkusen and play with a double pivot (and also with 1 CB capable of either playing in midfield or as a full-back, but that's another story...). It needs a truly world-class player to play as a single pivot in the modern game as the pressure is so high. Our 3 CBs are too close to one another, there's no forward pressure on their defense so their back line can push onto our midfield, compressing the play, no long pass threat to stretch the defense backwards...the list goes on and on.

TLDR: RM looks dangerously out of his depth. I'm a football optimist, I like to think any team can play PB but the manager is failing at too many of the tactical things necessary to make it work. He has some credit but the same failings we saw last season are still in place.

Handy post; where have you been?  I think the issue you raise with Downes has been compounded by the Smallbone and to a lesser extent, Airibo factor.   With Les Ugo and Fernandes as starters, much pressure comes off FD.

[saintant]

16 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Had another look at the highlights after watching the last 10 minutes of the 1st and all of the 2nd half yesterday and a few thoughts:

Good

- Pretty much all of the signings we've seen so far are significantly better than what we had already. I actually think we have enough quality to stay up. Even BBD and Archer are clearly a level above AA.

- Some of our play in the 2nd half going forward was good, but with the caveat they clearly were on cruise control and didn't want to make too much effort at 3-0 up.

- RM made the right subs and shows signs of dispensing with his favourites.

Bad

- Several of our players still appear shell-shocked at the new level. AA and Smallboner look done. THB doesn't look comfortable defensively in the back 3. Stevens cannot step into midfield. Downes actually wasn't great either, too many wall passes straight back to the defenders which he could get away with at Championship level but not anymore. I think he's more of an 8 at this level, similar to Rice - he can't play as a single pivot under heavy pressure in this system.

Ugly

- Defensive transition was a complete mess. Leaving aside giving away the ball in our defensive third which should never happen, even when we lost the ball in their half, we seemed to have no plan at all about how to either counter press and win the ball back high, or to stop the ball while we transition back to our defensive shape.

- Playing out from the back - Complete mess. The formation is hindering the players not helping them. If RM wants to stick with a back 3, he should copy Alonso at Leverkusen and play with a double pivot (and also with 1 CB capable of either playing in midfield or as a full-back, but that's another story...). It needs a truly world-class player to play as a single pivot in the modern game as the pressure is so high. Our 3 CBs are too close to one another, there's no forward pressure on their defense so their back line can push onto our midfield, compressing the play, no long pass threat to stretch the defense backwards...the list goes on and on.

TLDR: RM looks dangerously out of his depth. I'm a football optimist, I like to think any team can play PB but the manager is failing at too many of the tactical things necessary to make it work. He has some credit but the same failings we saw last season are still in place.

Some brilliant points here.

[saintant]

19 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Had another look at the highlights after watching the last 10 minutes of the 1st and all of the 2nd half yesterday and a few thoughts:

Good

- Pretty much all of the signings we've seen so far are significantly better than what we had already. I actually think we have enough quality to stay up. Even BBD and Archer are clearly a level above AA.

- Some of our play in the 2nd half going forward was good, but with the caveat they clearly were on cruise control and didn't want to make too much effort at 3-0 up.

- RM made the right subs and shows signs of dispensing with his favourites.

Bad

- Several of our players still appear shell-shocked at the new level. AA and Smallboner look done. THB doesn't look comfortable defensively in the back 3. Stevens cannot step into midfield. Downes actually wasn't great either, too many wall passes straight back to the defenders which he could get away with at Championship level but not anymore. I think he's more of an 8 at this level, similar to Rice - he can't play as a single pivot under heavy pressure in this system.

Ugly

- Defensive transition was a complete mess. Leaving aside giving away the ball in our defensive third which should never happen, even when we lost the ball in their half, we seemed to have no plan at all about how to either counter press and win the ball back high, or to stop the ball while we transition back to our defensive shape.

- Playing out from the back - Complete mess. The formation is hindering the players not helping them. If RM wants to stick with a back 3, he should copy Alonso at Leverkusen and play with a double pivot (and also with 1 CB capable of either playing in midfield or as a full-back, but that's another story...). It needs a truly world-class player to play as a single pivot in the modern game as the pressure is so high. Our 3 CBs are too close to one another, there's no forward pressure on their defense so their back line can push onto our midfield, compressing the play, no long pass threat to stretch the defense backwards...the list goes on and on.

TLDR: RM looks dangerously out of his depth. I'm a football optimist, I like to think any team can play PB but the manager is failing at too many of the tactical things necessary to make it work. He has some credit but the same failings we saw last season are still in place.

Agree with this. Downes and Big Les could be the two to play the double pivot and arguably we should have started them there yesterday.

[SWLondon Saint]

2 minutes ago, austsaint said:

Handy post; where have you been?  I think the issue you raise with Downes has been compounded by the Smallbone and to a lesser extent, Airibo factor.   With Les Ugo and Fernandes as starters, much pressure comes off FD.

Absolutely, there was one wall pass by Smallbone against Forest that was absolutely criminal, Sugawara played an excellent ball round the corner off the right touchline under pressure, Smallbone had no one behind him and gave it straight back to Sugawara putting him and the team under huge pressure. He has to be good enough to know he can turn and go and he just wasn't. Drove me nuts 🤯

[BranfootsLoveChild]

Reading some of the comments about how a new manager would get us playing freeflowing, attacking football rather than the tripe we are watching now....do you believe we have the players capable of this style in the premier league? As I'm not sure we do.