Brentford 3-1 Saints - Match Thread

[bangkoksaint]

3 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Blackmore asked him about why the lads from Wednesday, specfically, Dibling and Fernandes didn't start today. Martin rambled on about them playing too many minutes on Wednesday and being fatigued from that match. 

An 18 year old fit, young and athletic lad fatigued? Sorry Russ but I’m not having that

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

He sounded perfectly composed, and to be honest as if he'd already thought of an answer to the question before it was asked.

He telegraphed what would be said before the season started. Naivety, insanity to play in that fashion. If he knew what would be said you'd think he'd try and do something about it. Unless he's incapable of doing so without compromising 'his' way of playing. 

[OttawaSaint]

RM was late for the presser. Fannying around at the back.

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, LGTL said:

Brentford and Forest will both be down with us. Neither are anymore than bottom 6/7 which is even worse. 

That's the problem, we've been undone by Bryan Mbembo and Morgan Gibbs-White thus far, who as you say are bottom half PL players. 

The hardest game we had, which we still lost, was Newcastle - and they were awful on the day. Down to 10 men for 70mins, but we still lost. There isn't much hope on the horizon at the moment it has to be said.

These are the games we really need to be ultra competitive in, yet once again we've gone to Brentford and have been absolutley pummelled. It wasn't even hard work for them.

[sfc4prem]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

That's the problem, we've been undone by Bryan Mbembo and Morgan Gibbs-White thus far, who as you say are bottom half PL players. 

The hardest game we had, which we still lost, was Newcastle - and they were awful on the day. Down to 10 men for 70mins, but we still lost. There isn't much hope on the horizon at the moment it has to be said.

These are the games we really need to be ultra competitive in, yet once again we've gone to Brentford and have been absolutley pummelled. It wasn't even hard work for them.

This is the huge worry. Outclassed by a team that didn't really get out of third gear. Barely broke a sweat.

[gammon cheeks]

Will we be the worst premiere league team of all time ?

[Dark Munster]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Probably best you don't run the club then, given that half our signings only arrived yesterday and two of them aren't even eligible to play today. I'd call it knee-jerk to sack a manager after ten games but three is next level impatience.

Frank de Boer was sacked after just the first 4 matches by Palace in 2017 (all defeats). Their Board had balls, realised their mistake, and took action early. They went on to finish 11th.

If I had any control I'd give RM one more match. If they lose again by mincing around the back I would de Boer him immediately afterwards.

Unfortunately knowing SR and Rasmus they'll probably wait at least until we're 10 points adrift at Xmas before they take any action. Maybe longer.

[Saint Billy]

The thing is, I like RM, he comes across as a really nice guy. It looks like he has a good relationship with his players and I am grateful to him for getting us back to the prem albeit despite the system.

I would love him to remain but only if he wakes up and smells the roses. His chosen system is so flawed and dealt with so easily it's embarrassing.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

29 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

The utter cunt is throwing the players under the bus saying "I don't know why we've passed it around/back in those situations" 

THIS IS WHAT YOU WANTED.

The worst thing about the first goal was we’d minced about and nearly conceded 30 seconds prior to that. If, as Lego claims, he didn’t want us “passing it about in those situations “ why wasn’t he going nuts on the line after the first mistake, why wasn’t he shouting for us to knock it long. A few minutes till half time, we got let off the hook and we then still played the same way. Fucking 100% down to the manager, because every player left to his own devices would have breathed a sigh of relief over the let off, and hit it long 30 seconds later. 
 

If he continues to blame the players, he’ll have lost them by Oct, no bother. 

[hypochondriac]

Russell Martin admits he would start today with different personnel if he could go back, but says the players he started has "built so much credit".

Added he does not know what the team will look like for Man United but that it will be different. More quotes to come.

 

That's just fucking ridiculous. You play the best team to win in the premier league. Sentimentality should have no bearing at all. Is he too close to the players? Martin always wangs on about old players of his. It seems to me he doesn't have the killer instinct required to ditch enough players. Anyone with the ruthless streak required would have dropped Aribo, Smallbone etc and probably put THB on notice. 

Edited August 31 by hypochondriac

[bugenhagen]

12 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Ok, I've calmed down. 

At least if he's going to try and pretend that isn't how he wants to play, that implies he is going to try and change it. 

If there is hope, it lies somewhere within here. 
I don’t know what he tells the players, but even if he says keep the ball at all costs, I would hope that the players soon figure out that you don’t put your fellow teammates in such difficult situations, even if you are told to keep the ball. There is also football intelligence that lets you know when it is probably ok to put a teammate in a difficult situation and when it is not. Some of our players are not showing that. 
 

At the end of the day Martin has to adapt to keep his job. He won’t abandon his principles, may not even acknowledge that he has changed something, but the bottom line is what we have seen so far won’t work. We have to adjust. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Saint Billy said:

The thing is, I like RM, he comes across as a really nice guy. It looks like he has a good relationship with his players and I am grateful to him for getting us back to the prem albeit despite the system.

I would love him to remain but only if he wakes up and smells the roses. His chosen system is so flawed and dealt with so easily it's embarrassing.

 

All teams know what we do, they attacked us in the Champ last season and pressed us and forced us into mistakes. This isn't just a this season thing.

Obviously PL teams are going to do the same and they'll press us like mad when we pass it around the back, pressure us, make us panic. We don't have the technical players at the back to handle that panic, that's the problem. It will only end one way and we all know it. We need to be a bit more pragmatic in our build up from the back. Get the full backs wider, give the GK and CB's some passing angles - at the moment they are forced to go so narrow and teams will just pick us off on any press.

[Disco Stu]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Russell Martin admits he would start today with different personnel if he could go back, but says the players he started has "built so much credit".

Added he does not know what the team will look like for Man United but that it will be different. More quotes to come.

 

That's just fucking ridiculous. You play the best team to win in the premier league. Sebtimentality should have no bearing at all. Is he too close to the players? 

Absolutely. It's clouding his judgement.

[The Kraken]

15 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Blackmore asked him about why the lads from Wednesday, specfically, Dibling and Fernandes didn't start today. Martin rambled on about them playing too many minutes on Wednesday and being fatigued from that match. 

Tbf that’s about the only thing I give him a pass on. He gave his first teamers a last shot, they fucked it up and the two worst culprits got hooked at half time.

i hope Dibling doesn’t get rushed. He looks a proper talent but still so young and may do better as an impact sub for quite a few games. I think Fernandes has earnt Smallbone’s slot next game though, and I’d probably start Lallana instead of Aribo, although he’ll do well to play an hour.

[Whitey Grandad]

October isn’t very far away. Tomorrow it will be ‘next month’

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, The Kraken said:

Tbf that’s about the only thing I give him a pass on. He gave his first teamers a last shot, they fucked it up and the two worst culprits got hooked at half time.

i hope Dibling doesn’t get rushed. He looks a proper talent but still so young and may do better as an impact sub for quite a few games. I think Fernandes has earnt Smallbone’s slot next game though, and I’d probably start Lallana instead of Aribo, although he’ll do well to play an hour.

If you'd run a poll when that team was announced then 0% of saints fans would have said that was our strongest team. Particularly after forest.

[Viking Saint]

1 hour ago, Nemi said:

A few off the pace - but I thought Walker-Peters was pretty crap today, held things up for too long, have the ball away in dangerous areas a few times, didn’t get any crosses in, granted he was helped much either, but so many Brentford attacks came down our left side.
 

Not surprised no one picked that up as he often seems to get a free pass. I just really don’t like him as a LB, he’s not as undroppable as people make out and if he wants to play he should be competing for the RB spot and we play an actual LB.

Agree with you that he didn't play well today and playing him at LB unbalanced things. That said, he is usually one of our best players and Sugawara gets better every game so the argument is to play one at RM, which won't work in a 5-3-2

[egg]

1 minute ago, The Kraken said:

Tbf that’s about the only thing I give him a pass on. He gave his first teamers a last shot, they fucked it up and the two worst culprits got hooked at half time.

i hope Dibling doesn’t get rushed. He looks a proper talent but still so young and may do better as an impact sub for quite a few games. I think Fernandes has earnt Smallbone’s slot next game though, and I’d probably start Lallana instead of Aribo, although he’ll do well to play an hour.

Good post, and hard to disagree. Lallana can be replaced by Dibling when he tires. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Russell Martin admits he would start today with different personnel if he could go back, but says the players he started has "built so much credit".

Even this is bollocks. He was quick enough to ditch AM despite the credit he had from the play offs. He picked the wrong side, a real bloke would hold his hands up & just say that. He’s trying to kid us his fuck up is because he’s such a great guy. He’s a pony merchant. 

[OttawaSaint]

Our next win is 2 weeks away...

[egg]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Russell Martin admits he would start today with different personnel if he could go back, but says the players he started has "built so much credit".

Added he does not know what the team will look like for Man United but that it will be different. More quotes to come.

 

That's just fucking ridiculous. You play the best team to win in the premier league. Sentimentality should have no bearing at all. Is he too close to the players? Martin always wangs on about old players of his. It seems to me he doesn't have the killer instinct required to ditch enough players. Anyone with the ruthless streak required would have dropped Aribo, Smallbone etc and probably put THB on notice. 

I'd imagine that morale amongst players will fall like a stone if he does that. 

[The Kraken]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

If you'd run a poll when that team was announced then 0% of saints fans would have said that was our strongest team. Particularly after forest.

I don’t disagree, it’s not the team I’d have picked. Don’t like 3 at the back, don’t like our strikers being so wide. In terms of players, football is about taking/missing chances when they’re given. Smallbone fluffed his and Fernandes looks likely to have that spot as he took his chance. Armstrong literally missed an open goal, if he actually makes contact with the ball and scores that then no way he gets subbed. But I’d have him out, he’s blinded by the lights again,

My issue today was less the personnel and more the system. As I said, 3 at the back is shit. BBD playing left wing is brain dead. I certainly wouldn’t be playing Aribo, Smallbone, Armstrong next time we play but I think we could have started with different players today and still got equally undone as the system he’s playing them in is the most flawed thing of all.

[Disco Stu]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

I'd imagine that morale amongst players will fall like a stone if he does that. 

As opposed to losing every week?

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

I'd imagine that morale amongst players will fall like a stone if he does that. 

Oh yes like when we dropped our championship captain last time after promotion or got rid of a manager who wasn't working. It's a ruthless league you have to do what is required to survive. 

[The Kraken]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Good post, and hard to disagree. Lallana can be replaced by Dibling when he tires. 

Be interested to see Dibling play centrally as we go onward, see how he does there. The boy glides.

[OttawaSaint]

Was really excited getting up this morning. Was thinking Ramsdale, Fernandes, Archer, a good balanced formation. Renewed vigour and positivity from the lads. Then I saw the teamsheet, then I watched us assist their opening goal.

Bubble burst. Fed up already!

[egg]

Just now, Disco Stu said:

As opposed to losing every week?

Different points. Changing half the team after 2 games would have been an over reaction and would have had a massive impact on the dressing room. Regardless, the issue is partly the team he picked, but mostly the way he has them playing.

He should get his own house in order before throwing the players under the bus. 

[sfc4prem]

I feel very grumpy.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

Different points. Changing half the team after 2 games would have been an over reaction and would have had a massive impact on the dressing room. Regardless, the issue is partly the team he picked, but mostly the way he has them playing.

He should get his own house in order before throwing the players under the bus. 

It shouldn't have been changed after two games. We should never have started the season with all of Stephens, Aribo and Armstrong in our starting team. They are squad players at absolute best abd this should have been recognised immediately. 

[Forester]

In my opinion, way too much focus on formation and not enough on the absolute clear main problem.  If you are careless with the ball at edge of our own area you will get punished by Premier League players.  End of.

You can be careful or reckless with three or four at the back.  We won’t be a team who scores three or four goals most weeks, and so our only route to safety is probably keeping eight to ten clean sheets this season.  We have zero chance of doing that believing we are Man City.

 

[egg]

Just now, The Kraken said:

Be interested to see Dibling play centrally as we go onward, see how he does there. The boy glides.

Yep. In a 433 I think he'd be great either from the middle, or coming in from out wide in the way Lallana did in his prime.

He reminds me of a faster and bigger Lallana and used properly, he'll be brilliant for us. 

[The Kraken]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Yep. In a 433 I think he'd be great either from the middle, or coming in from out wide in the way Lallana did in his prime.

He reminds me of a faster and bigger Lallana and used properly, he'll be brilliant for us. 

I don’t think anyone has mentioned it before but he reminds me very much of Jack Grealish….

[OttawaSaint]

1 minute ago, Forester said:

In my opinion, way too much focus on formation and not enough on the absolute clear main problem.  If you are careless with the ball at edge of our own area you will get punished by Premier League players.  End of.

You can be careful or reckless with three or four at the back.  We won’t be a team who scores three or four goals most weeks, and so our only route to safety is probably keeping eight to ten clean sheets this season.  We have zero chance of doing that believing we are Man City.

 

Absolutely. We need to be more solid at the back, difficult to play against.

Being risky in our defensive 3rd is the opposite of this and invites pressure. 

I don't see how playing like that opens things up for us because it doesn't. It's a pointless activity that has left us pointless so far.

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

It shouldn't have been changed after two games. We should never have started the season with all of Stephens, Aribo and Armstrong in our starting team. They are squad players at absolute best abd this should have been recognised immediately. 

Hindsight doesn't help us, but if he was determined to play a back 3, he had to start Stephens. Indeed, based on the CB's performances over the first 3 games, he's been better than THB and I'm getting bored with people saying Stephens shouldn't be playing. You've got to be nuts to say that THB is a better option at the moment. 

Armstrong. Who else at the start of the season should have started ahead of him? A crocked Lallana? Dibling would be a hindsight pick if people are being honest. There was nobody else. Ditto Aribo. Smallbone too for that matter. 

Now, I'd introduce Fernandes and Lallana ahead of Smallbone and Aribo. Neither of those were options at the start of the season. 

[Disco Stu]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Different points. Changing half the team after 2 games would have been an over reaction and would have had a massive impact on the dressing room. Regardless, the issue is partly the team he picked, but mostly the way he has them playing.

He should get his own house in order before throwing the players under the bus. 

I don't think so. Aribo and Smallbone evidently struggled against 10 man Newcastle and Forest. Smallbone instead of Fernandes simply makes no sense. Ugochukwu is yet to make a league appearance. Dibling simply must start next game as he transforms us every time he comes on.

None of the squad will have had an issue with Ramdale going straight into the team. We signed these players because we identified weaknesses in the team that needed improvement. You sign better players, you play them. That's how successful teams operate.

I agree the biggest problem of all is Russell's system though.

[saintant]

RM is actually hanging his own players out to dry particularly his defenders. He is asking them to play in a way that they aren't good enough to do at Premier League level. If any of them was capable of it they'd be playing for a top four side. However, because of his own vanity project he is drumming into them that they must play this crazy passing game from the back. When it inevitably breaks down continually and poor goals are conceded they are made to look the bad guys, they are made to look like far worse players than they actually are. The sad thing is that it will never work at this level and he is fooling less and less people - he doesn't have the talent to coach it. Even the commentators and opposition fans can see the utter folly of it. He really is a less than average coach who has come up with this idea that he can turn a squad of lower Premier League footballers into an elite team along the lines of Man City. As I said, it's his own vanity project and the sooner SR realise it's got zero chance of succeeding the sooner they'll realise they have to fire him. I just hope they don't leave it too long. 

[ItchenRob]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

I don't think so. Aribo and Smallbone evidently struggled against 10 man Newcastle and Forest. Smallbone instead of Fernandes simply makes no sense. Ugochukwu is yet to make a league appearance. Dibling simply must start next game as he transforms us every time he comes on.

None of the squad will have had an issue with Ramdale going straight into the team. We signed these players because we identified weaknesses in the team that needed improvement. You sign better players, you play them. That's how successful teams operate.

I agree the biggest problem of all is Russell's system though.

Totally agree with this. Unless we suddenly become Man City we will really struggle with the current system (posting partly because I desperately want to be wrong!)

[Mr X]

37 minutes ago, gammon cheeks said:

Will we be the worst premiere league team of all time ?

Derbys record low of 11 points is in serious danger 

Edited August 31 by Mr X

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Convict Colony said:

Martin needs a manager mentor to bounce ideas off.

Martin needs somebody to bounce his head off the changing room wall.

[egg]

Just now, Disco Stu said:

I don't think so. Aribo and Smallbone evidently struggled against 10 man Newcastle and Forest. Smallbone instead of Fernandes simply makes no sense. Ugochukwu is yet to make a league appearance. Dibling simply must start next game as he transforms us every time he comes on.

None of the squad will have had an issue with Ramdale going straight into the team. We signed these players because we identified weaknesses in the team that needed improvement. You sign better players, you play them. That's how successful teams operate.

I agree the biggest problem of all is Russell's system though.

Fernandes would have been knackered after Wednesday (his first start for us) so I completely get not starting him, ditto Lesley and Dibling. Ramsdale is a different issue, he hadn't played midweek, and keepers could probably play every day. 

On the main point, I fundamentally disagree that wholesale changes after 2 games is anything other than an overreaction, and wouldn't have helped morale amongst players who are probably struggling a wee bit anyway. 

Now he's got to change things. Formation, tactics, personnel, everything.

[beatlesaint]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Martin needs somebody to bounce his head off the changing room wall.

Maybe Lallana could tell him he’s fkin deluded given his experience 

[Whitey Grandad]

52 minutes ago, egg said:

Hindsight doesn't help us, but if he was determined to play a back 3, he had to start Stephens. Indeed, based on the CB's performances over the first 3 games, he's been better than THB and I'm getting bored with people saying Stephens shouldn't be playing. You've got to be nuts to say that THB is a better option at the moment. 

Armstrong. Who else at the start of the season should have started ahead of him? A crocked Lallana? Dibling would be a hindsight pick if people are being honest. There was nobody else. Ditto Aribo. Smallbone too for that matter. 

Now, I'd introduce Fernandes and Lallana ahead of Smallbone and Aribo. Neither of those were options at the start of the season. 

Whether or not you consider Stephens to be better that THB at the moment doesn’t alter the fact that Stephens is a liability. If not playing Stephens means that we cannot play three at the back then so much the better.

Edited August 31 by Whitey Grandad
Effing autocorrect. Artificial Intelligence my arse. Artificial Stupidity more like.

[Baird of the land]

14 minutes ago, Forester said:

In my opinion, way too much focus on formation and not enough on the absolute clear main problem.  If you are careless with the ball at edge of our own area you will get punished by Premier League players.  End of.

You can be careful or reckless with three or four at the back.  We won’t be a team who scores three or four goals most weeks, and so our only route to safety is probably keeping eight to ten clean sheets this season.  We have zero chance of doing that believing we are Man City.

 

Agree completely that approach is our best hope but still think we’re likely doomed as our forwards aren’t any good.

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

Hindsight doesn't help us, but if he was determined to play a back 3, he had to start Stephens. Indeed, based on the CB's performances over the first 3 games, he's been better than THB and I'm getting bored with people saying Stephens shouldn't be playing. You've got to be nuts to say that THB is a better option at the moment. 

Armstrong. Who else at the start of the season should have started ahead of him? A crocked Lallana? Dibling would be a hindsight pick if people are being honest. There was nobody else. Ditto Aribo. Smallbone too for that matter. 

Now, I'd introduce Fernandes and Lallana ahead of Smallbone and Aribo. Neither of those were options at the start of the season. 

You miss the point. We shouldn't be playing three at the back and most people frustrated about Stephens is because he's playing in a system that people don't want and that we can't play successfully in this league. If you are wedded to playing Stephens then play 4 at the back and drop THB. At least that would be decisive rather than this mess where Stephens has no defined position and gives the impression of being shoehorned into the team. 

 

[Patches O Houlihan]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Blackmore didn't call him out directly enough for me. He's having to moderate his questions due to Martin bullying him in the past. 

In fairness after a humbling defeat like that RM is likely to be very easily provoked. Are you saying you would have poked the bear hard if you had been in Adam's shoes?! He has a job to do, and he can't do it if he tries to turn every interview into a dick measuring competition. 😉

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Fernandes would have been knackered after Wednesday (his first start for us) so I completely get not starting him, ditto Lesley and Dibling. Ramsdale is a different issue, he hadn't played midweek, and keepers could probably play every day. 

On the main point, I fundamentally disagree that wholesale changes after 2 games is anything other than an overreaction, and wouldn't have helped morale amongst players who are probably struggling a wee bit anyway. 

Now he's got to change things. Formation, tactics, personnel, everything.

Why would you start Fernandes over Smallbone in a meaningless cup game that no one cares about if you had an idea that he is superior to the alternatives in his position and could have done with him on Saturday? It's madness. 

He didn't have to wait for three defeats with one goal scored and very little in the way of goal threats in order to feel that it was acceptable to make changes. We've just effectively thrown three games in the bin in order to be nice to the players that got us up and so that Martin can feel that enough time has passed to make changes. 

[Nolan]

Listening to the aftermatch between Russell Martin and Blackmore. I DID hear what I wanted. 

For the second goal he mentioned that the ball should not have been passed back, inviting pressure, and then that Stephens and Bednarek should not have got so close to each other. 

Like last year, we're having a slow start, but get that line higher, stop the errors and get the ball to our exciting young players.

Ramsdale, Fernandes, Suguwara, KWP and Downes are names that have to be on the first names on the team sheet for Man U.

The rest I'm flexible on. They need to earn it in training.

 

[gio1saints]

39 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Even this is bollocks. He was quick enough to ditch AM despite the credit he had from the play offs. He picked the wrong side, a real bloke would hold his hands up & just say that. He’s trying to kid us his fuck up is because he’s such a great guy. He’s a pony merchant. 

You get off on hate don’t you? 

[The Kraken]

8 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Maybe Lallana could tell him he’s fkin deluded given his experience 

You joke but I genuinely have a bit of hope that something like that could happen. We know Lallana isn’t just here for a playing career swansong, he’s got coaching/managerial ambitions. And he’s getting a rep for putting his ideas across. The big hope is that he’s the experienced voice that RM needs to hear against him.

[disconnect]

Why is the team seemingly built around playing Stephens now (5 at the back to fit him in, shift to left back when going to 4 at the back, play in central midfield?!), when the period we were best last season was when he wasn't in the team?! As much as he has passion (i.e. the same thing Lyanco was lynched for), he's not premier league standard. The sooner we can move on from him, Aribo and Smallbone, the sooner we start picking up results.