Saints 0-1 Forest - Match Thread

[Charlie Wayman]

10 hours ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

It’s going to be a learning curve for him. He needs to be ruthless, if players can’t hack it he needs to drop them for ones that are.

Loyalty is only great up to a point.

To be fair, Manning has already been sidelined by RM. His fixation on Stephens is the most worrying and most baffling but it can't last much longer.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

After sitting through yesterday's game, I think the criticism shared on here is not unjust in the slightest. Yesterday was every bit as worse as we've seen under Jones and Selles when we were last here. I don't think it is negative to say we got beat by a bang average team who are likely to be bottom six come the end of the season. That for me is the biggest concern. RM talks about being brave and having a go this year, but there was nothing brave in that performance. 

 

 

Watching that Wolves v Chelsea game was like watching a game on fast forward in comparison to ours. That’s what football should be like. Not Plodders FC versus Hobblers United.

[V.Johnathan.Wilson]

Honestly think that we didn't play as bad as the stats show (5 shots 1 on target), especially that 2nd half. Obviously it wasn't great either since we lost, but for me the biggest problem is that we only seem to want to shoot if we're 5-10 yards which is going to be very difficult if their rest defense is just outside the box and their midfielders are parked very close in front of the back line and that our front two are far too wide which makes them easy to isolate and forces our wingbacks to make an overlapping run which makes us very easy to counter attack out wide.

People say its wasteful to shoot from just outside the box/the edge of the box but doing so also encourages the opponent's defensive line to step out more to mitigate that risk which then brings about the opportunity to get an Arma or Archer in behind as the defence would be in two minds whether to stop the shot or block the pass in behind.

If we stick with the back three I think Russell Martin should try working on a 3-4-1-2 formation, with one of the wing/full backs inverting if need be to provide an extra passing route.  The player at the front of the diamond can freely roam around to either provide for the front 2 or drop deeper to open up the two 6s/8s (between lesley, downes, smallbone and fernandes) if Alcaraz stays he'd be perfect as the man between the front 2 and the central midfield otherwise Dibling/Fernandes/Aribo would probably play that role.

Edited August 26 by V.Johnathan.Wilson

[hypochondriac]

8 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

After sitting through yesterday's game, I think the criticism shared on here is not unjust in the slightest. Yesterday was every bit as worse as we've seen under Jones and Selles when we were last here. I don't think it is negative to say we got beat by a bang average team who are likely to be bottom six come the end of the season. That for me is the biggest concern. RM talks about being brave and having a go this year, but there was nothing brave in that performance. 

 

 

Not just beaten. We were comprehensively outplayed in all departments. At home. Against a lower premier league team. 

[kjurwi]

Find it funny that we have a complete meltdown after the first 2 games. We played well against Newcastle and lost, and sucked against Nottingham. We all knew we would struggle in the league. Agree this was a game we needed something from to increase our chances of staying up, but there is still time. 

I'm saving my meltdown till game 12. After that we might suck.

[Challenger]

1 hour ago, kjurwi said:

Find it funny that we have a complete meltdown after the first 2 games. We played well against Newcastle and lost, and sucked against Nottingham. We all knew we would struggle in the league. Agree this was a game we needed something from to increase our chances of staying up, but there is still time. 

I'm saving my meltdown till game 12. After that we might suck.

Losing the first two games should in no way create a meltdown, however the manner of those defeats is concerning.

If personnel or tactics are not improved and quickly the rot will well and truly set in.

If the club is unable to improve the former then the latter will have to, if RM cant see that then expect the worst.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, kjurwi said:

Find it funny that we have a complete meltdown after the first 2 games. We played well against Newcastle and lost,

They had 10 men for a friggin hour. 

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

They had 10 men for a friggin hour. 

Indeed. Although, to be fair, we were by far the better team when it was 11 vs 11 too, but appreciate that was only for half an hour.

[Micky]

There is no meltdown going on, there is, and rightly so, concern that we already look well out of our depth in this league.  Playing 10 men for an hour and losing followed up by a tepid, attack shy performance against a relegation rival, does not bode well. So no meltdown, just concern that early signs are not good. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, Micky said:

There is no meltdown going on, there is, and rightly so, concern that we already look well out of our depth in this league.  Playing 10 men for an hour and losing followed up by a tepid, attack shy performance against a relegation rival, does not bode well. So no meltdown, just concern that early signs are not good. 

That’s it in a nutshell. It wasn’t like we were 1-0 down when they went to 10 & couldn’t get it back. Does anyone seriously believe that Newcastles tactics didn’t contribute to us “playing well”. They let us play in certain areas, but once we got into areas they didn’t want us playing in they snuffed us out pretty easily. We seemed to surprise them early on, but we did that to Liverpool last season & once they adjusted they overcame us pretty easily.  That was a massive missed opportunity, and Sat was a shit show. If we play like that at Brentford we’ll get beat as well, with UTD to follow. People moaned about Jones losing winnable games, those 2 we’ve lost were both winnable. 0-0 when they go down to 10 and an average Forest at home, 0 points is under par. 

[Kermitzasaint]

5 hours ago, kjurwi said:

Find it funny that we have a complete meltdown after the first 2 games. We played well against Newcastle and lost, and sucked against Nottingham. We all knew we would struggle in the league. Agree this was a game we needed something from to increase our chances of staying up, but there is still time. 

I'm saving my meltdown till game 12. After that we might suck.

It's not the results. It's the manner of the defeat. If we played quick attacking football and lost I wouldn't mind because at least we tried to be positive. 

From everything we have seen of RM and what he has done in the past I don't think that he is capable of being what we need him to be. It's not about surviving, we may go down anyway but atm we are not even playing to win. Russell Martin would rather lose his way because of his slavish obsession with his style. It's maddening. 

[derry]

I don't think these reactions are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. People were hopeful but also worried about several deficient aspects. The poor goalkeeper, the aimless go nowhere intricate passing for possession sake, the lack of penetration from midfield, two strikers isolated on the wings, the full backs despite three centre backs and what looked like three holding midfielders were unable to break free of the back passing and rotation passing.

We didn't look the least bit competent against a mediocre team because their four forwards tore us a new one. Collectively we were a clusterfuck, however I don't believe that individually all these players are that bad. A back four of Sugawara THB Bednarek KWP isn't that bad or Taylor for KWP. Downes is a decent midfielder, Armstrong and BBD because of the restrictions placed on them were unable to perform. Edozie, Smallbone and Aribo are liabilities because of their deficiences. Archer in two appearances looks more like a support striker rather than a centre forward.

Having said that we need a new goalkeeper either Bjillow or Ramsdale, A proper leader up front that is pysically a threat and knows where the goal is. A change in emphasis, two midfielders that are a threat as attackers, hopefully Fernandez and Ugochukwu can provide that and cut out the mind numbing kamikaze rotation at the back. Win the ball, pass it forward to the midfielders or up the wings and support the ball and get bodies into the box. That's the place to do the passing not our own penalty area. Any danger or threat stick it over the opponents back four and fight for it. 

The sterile crap we are playing in the Premier will have one definite result, we will lose a lot of matches and in a short time produce a toxic atmosphere with the supporters.

[OttawaSaint]

I saw a graphic of average position of each player vs Forest. I'll try and find it again but as expected, both forwards way wide, a massive hole in the center, really defensive midfield.

How on earth does RM expect us to score goals? It's baffling, worrying and maddening that he doesn't see the need to have a central striker.

[Give it to Ron]

19 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said:

I saw a graphic of average position of each player vs Forest. I'll try and find it again but as expected, both forwards way wide, a massive hole in the center, really defensive midfield.

How on earth does RM expect us to score goals? It's baffling, worrying and maddening that he doesn't see the need to have a central striker.

This one?

 

 

Edited August 26 by Give it to Ron

[saintant]

1 hour ago, derry said:

I don't think these reactions are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. People were hopeful but also worried about several deficient aspects. The poor goalkeeper, the aimless go nowhere intricate passing for possession sake, the lack of penetration from midfield, two strikers isolated on the wings, the full backs despite three centre backs and what looked like three holding midfielders were unable to break free of the back passing and rotation passing.

We didn't look the least bit competent against a mediocre team because their four forwards tore us a new one. Collectively we were a clusterfuck, however I don't believe that individually all these players are that bad. A back four of Sugawara THB Bednarek KWP isn't that bad or Taylor for KWP. Downes is a decent midfielder, Armstrong and BBD because of the restrictions placed on them were unable to perform. Edozie, Smallbone and Aribo are liabilities because of their deficiences. Archer in two appearances looks more like a support striker rather than a centre forward.

Having said that we need a new goalkeeper either Bjillow or Ramsdale, A proper leader up front that is pysically a threat and knows where the goal is. A change in emphasis, two midfielders that are a threat as attackers, hopefully Fernandez and Ugochukwu can provide that and cut out the mind numbing kamikaze rotation at the back. Win the ball, pass it forward to the midfielders or up the wings and support the ball and get bodies into the box. That's the place to do the passing not our own penalty area. Any danger or threat stick it over the opponents back four and fight for it. 

The sterile crap we are playing in the Premier will have one definite result, we will lose a lot of matches and in a short time produce a toxic atmosphere with the supporters.

Nail hit firmly on the head. If RM chooses his own stubborn way he runs a high risk of being the architect of his own downfall. He simply must adapt his tactics but my fear is that he's not going to budge from his hard held beliefs - noble but foolish in my book.

[Saint_clark]

52 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

This one?

 

 

If only we had an AM with attacking intent, someone who likes to get the ball and drive forward with it or run in behind, someone who managed to get a decent amount of goals from midfield last time we were in the Prem.

[OttawaSaint]

3 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

This one?

 

 

Yes!

[OttawaSaint]

2 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

If only we had an AM with attacking intent, someone who likes to get the ball and drive forward with it or run in behind, someone who managed to get a decent amount of goals from midfield last time we were in the Prem.

Making us look like big time Charlys...

[AlexLaw76]

3 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

This one?

 

 

That is fecking ridiculous.

but look at the state of the shape the manager put out, who stated in the radio that we were not patient enough with the ball.

 

[Saint_clark]

What are we calling that then, the wishbone formation?

[Mystic Force]

I enjoyed their commitment to passing it out from the back, such that when a ball broke to those in midfield, they would make sure to give it back to the defenders still surrounded by Notts Forest players who would then have to use their skills and pin point passing to get it back to the midfield, after satisfying the boss they are following thr instructions.

 

Modern football where the attackers have to have their best attribute be what to do without the ball and defenders have to be greatest with the ball.

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

4 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

This one?

 

 

[Lighthouse]

It worked against the All Blacks.

 

[CB Fry]

17 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

This one?

 

 

So very, very brave

👏👏👏👏👏

[tdmickey3]

15 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

What are we calling that then, the wishbone formation?

Its called the WTF formation

[OldNick]

On 26/08/2024 at 06:52, hypochondriac said:

Not just beaten. We were comprehensively outplayed in all departments. At home. Against a lower premier league team. 

I think you are being a bit harsh on Forest. They are a decent side and will be safe mid table. Their physicality compared to us was very noticeable. Just watching their subs dwarfing ours as they warmed up with their build and athleticism was noticeable, the same on the pitch. I have wondered for years why we seem to buy/develop slight players rather than strong athletic players who can intimidate and knock players off the ball.

I notice also people saying about Macca, he may be poor with the ball at his feet but he saved us from a hammering Saturday. I assume fans wouldn't want us to have Pope, who is appalling with the ball at his feet, comocal really.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, OldNick said:

I think you are being a bit harsh on Forest. They are a decent side and will be safe mid table. Their physicality compared to us was very noticeable. Just watching their subs dwarfing ours as they warmed up with their build and athleticism was noticeable, the same on the pitch. I have wondered for years why we seem to buy/develop slight players rather than strong athletic players who can intimidate and knock players off the ball.

I notice also people saying about Macca, he may be poor with the ball at his feet but he saved us from a hammering Saturday. I assume fans wouldn't want us to have Pope, who is appalling with the ball at his feet, comocal really.

I also cannot fathom the reason we seem to buy a majority of small players. If they are super talented they can get away with it but most sides similar to us that do well usually have a core of strong athletes who can get about the pitch. I'm hoping Ugochukwu will help us in this respect.

[Oldandtired]

1 hour ago, OldNick said:

 

I notice also people saying about Macca, he may be poor with the ball at his feet but he saved us from a hammering Saturday. I assume fans wouldn't want us to have Pope, who is appalling with the ball at his feet, comocal really.

I agree about AM. Also watching the highlights from the weekend quite a few members of the elite goalkeepers union made memorable cock ups.

[Viking Saint]

On 24/08/2024 at 07:17, benjii said:

It's not defensive. When we have the ball Stephens goes into midfield, Aribo goes very high and the full backs have licence to go pretty much anywhere. 

It's more fluid and probably more creative than the 433 we used to play, where the wide players would often get isolated and we would struggle to find space between the opposition midfield and defence, plus we look much more solid at the back.

Please watch more closely.

We start with 5 defenders meaning we are a body light in midfield which is why we get overrun