Saints 0-1 Forest - Match Thread

[Convict Colony]

Don't stress guys, I've not been able to watch any games so far as on the other side of the world but will be back for the brentford game and i am a glory supporter.

So first win of the season for Saints guaranteed and some creative goalscoring genius to arrive or start if that messiah is Fernandes.

[CSA96]

Can't help but think the solution is to flick back to 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 - I totally get why he went with the 3-5-2 on opening day up at Newcastle, where things could've got ugly and the game probably came too soon for us. But long-term answer? No chance

Personally, think we need to compensate for losing the third CB by playing two deep centre mids and one higher up. I know previously RM has preferred Downes as the deep midfielder and then two CMs higher up, but I would be looking to play Downes and Ugochukwu together in a deeper area, with Fernandes pushed up

Then alternate Fernandes with sub appearances for Dibling and Lallana. If Dibling keeps showing flashes and Fernandes isn't, then you can swap them around. I think all three of those have the guile to help knit things together between midfield and attack and create chances, which is going to be key. Attack was way too far away from the rest of the team today and as much as Arma and BBD didn't do much, I did feel a bit sorry with them because that 3-5-2 system with split strikers only ever set them up to fail

Need to add a wide player and a proper number 9 before the end of the window, just hope we don't have to wait too long now to adjust the system to suit the players

[Kermitzasaint]

I think with our current squad we could scrape survival but only with a decent coach. Today was amateur hour, a weak squad made to look worse because it was utilised terribly. I've said it before that a skilled coach makes the best out of what he has. Russell Martin lacks the skill to do that. 

Everything that RM has shown in his time with us shows me that he isn't capable of doing what's required to make us an effective EPL team. 

A better keeper and striker won't keep us up unless RM changes absolutely everything about how he coaches us. His entire philosophy only works at a lower level when his squad is better than everyone else's. 

RM is the problem. 

[gammon cheeks]

Defeat was down to manager .Playing some wank system without a central striker and 5 at the back at home offered nothing 

[Long Shot]

2 hours ago, gammon cheeks said:

Defeat was down to manager .Playing some wank system without a central striker and 5 at the back at home offered nothing 

Absolutely this. The set up today was naive and daft. We can all shout at Stephens and Smallbone etc but they play how RM wants them to - he is the problem. This playing out slowly and sideways is tedious and simply won’t work in the PL. If Cortese was in charge RM wouldn’t make it into Autumn. 

[AlexLaw76]

2 hours ago, gammon cheeks said:

Defeat was down to manager .Playing some wank system without a central striker and 5 at the back at home offered nothing 

essentially, this!

[stknowle]

8 hours ago, SNSUN said:

I maintain, I don't think their recruitment is any better than ours. We've made punts that could work, they've made punts that could work.

I just hope we haven’t bought a load of stupid punts.

[obelisk]

I suspect opposition managers look at RM's philosophy and laugh. The idea that endless walking football with ponderous sideways/backwards passing in your own half is ever going to work in this league is certainly laughable. The only time that Forest looked at all worried was when RM threw on some desperate late subs who haven't yet fallen for the RM philosophy but instead actually tried to create some scoring opportunities rather than to make an easy safe pass. Until that time the Forest defence were totally untroubled by a couple of lonely attackers patrolling the touchline.

Oh, and corners. Have Saints yet looked dangerous at any of them? Perhaps a tall no9 type character might trouble opposition defences but at the moment I'd suggest an alternative plan to swinging aimless balls into nobody in particular.

[hypochondriac]

Bijlow 

Suga THB bednarek kwp 

Downes lesley 

Fernandes 

Armstrong BBD 

Archer/new striker 

I'd also consider dropping Armstrong if we get much more without him, scoring or offering much. 

[skintsaint]

As I said last week. Going to be a long shitty season of tippy tippy losses.

[John B]

6 hours ago, CSA96 said:

Can't help but think the solution is to flick back to 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 - I totally get why he went with the 3-5-2 on opening day up at Newcastle, where things could've got ugly and the game probably came too soon for us. But long-term answer? No chance

Personally, think we need to compensate for losing the third CB by playing two deep centre mids and one higher up. I know previously RM has preferred Downes as the deep midfielder and then two CMs higher up, but I would be looking to play Downes and Ugochukwu together in a deeper area, with Fernandes pushed up

Then alternate Fernandes with sub appearances for Dibling and Lallana. If Dibling keeps showing flashes and Fernandes isn't, then you can swap them around. I think all three of those have the guile to help knit things together between midfield and attack and create chances, which is going to be key. Attack was way too far away from the rest of the team today and as much as Arma and BBD didn't do much, I did feel a bit sorry with them because that 3-5-2 system with split strikers only ever set them up to fail

Need to add a wide player and a proper number 9 before the end of the window, just hope we don't have to wait too long now to adjust the system to suit the players

The real solution to winning games regularly in the PL is to have a team of decent players strangely this has happened in the past but with this current squad and a strike force of Armstrong and Diaz it is just not going to happen.

 

 

 

 

 

[SfcPhil]

Positives:

McCarthy was better than usual

Sugawara is Premier League standard

Dibling and Fernandes looked bright

 

Negatives:

Stephens slows the play down more than any other player, which means we lose momentum and the opposition team has time to get back into shape/read where the next pass is going.

The strikers both playing as wingers means there's absolutely nothing through the middle. Aribo is not the answer to play the AM role.

When we win the ball back, we can't go forward as there's little to no options.

Edozie has zero end product, needs a loan like Charles IMO

5-3-2 might work in away games, but we have to play on the front foot at home if we want to stay up. Russ saying afterwards that it worked in the playoffs is a concerning comment. Yes it did, but we're not playing Championship teams anymore.

[John B]

24 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Bijlow 

Suga THB bednarek kwp 

Downes lesley 

Fernandes 

Armstrong BBD 

Archer/new striker 

I'd also consider dropping Armstrong if we get much more without him, scoring or offering much. 

The is not much quality there not sure any would currently get into our top PL teams of the past

[Wade Garrett]

How can we play with 2 wide men and no centre-forward.  Ridiculous.  No wonder it was Southampton nil again.

He continues trying to be too clever for his own good.  

[badgerx16]

What odds on Saints losing to Cardiff and Brentford ?

Yes Russ managed us to promotion but these first 2 matches have only served to show up his weaknesses. Where was the goal threat meant to be yesterday ? How was our midfield supposed to boss the game ? Why does Suga look like he is the sacrificial lamb once we are forced to admit things aren't working ?

We were the worst of the three promoted teams and therefore had the most work to do but, as has been said elsewhere, how much PL experience have we bought in ?  It was always going to be a long hard slog to survive but so far we have not indicated that we have enough about us to even give ourselves a fighting chance.

[Harry_SFC]

Just watching the Brighton highlights from yesterday. The amount of bodies they seem to get in the opposition box compared to us is ridiculous.

[John B]

15 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

How can we play with 2 wide men and no centre-forward.  Ridiculous.  No wonder it was Southampton nil again.

He continues trying to be too clever for his own good.  

Perhaps if he had Mane and MLT instead of Armstrong and BBD you would not be so critical

I feel sorry for him trying to win in the PL with his current squad

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, John B said:

Perhaps if he had Mane and MLT instead of Armstrong and BBD you would not be so critical

I feel sorry for him trying to win in the PL with his current squad

It may not be great, but the manager is making it worse. Surrendering midfield, no strikers, forward players hugging the touchline. Absolute shit show

[Wade Garrett]

3 minutes ago, John B said:

Perhaps if he had Mane and MLT instead of Armstrong and BBD you would not be so critical

I feel sorry for him trying to win in the PL with his current squad

What are you taking about?

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

And on Match of the Day, they highlighted how many passes it takes us to do one shot. And that needs to be sorted. Move the ball quicker, be more direct and have Archer or someone in the middle. For large tranches of the game there were two players standing wide on both sides with a gaping big hole through midfield and attack.

Hopefully Fernandez and Les will make a difference in midfield. Afraid Aribo really isn't good enough to make the step up and for that matter, AA is proving he's a good championship player but not a lot more. 

[Lymington Saint]

Problem was in midfield and up front.  Aribo and Smallbone really struggled.  Was better late on when they were replaced.  What was Armstrong and Diaz hugging opposite touchlines all about?  Think RM needs to bring in some of the new guys from the start at Brentford

[FarehamSaintJames]

I’m not a fan of Stephens playing as a whole but he was not the worst centre-back today, THB was a lot worse.

McCarthy kept us in it. 

were not competing against the top ten, it’s the bottom ten we need to be careful of, yesterday was a huge opportunity and tactically it was all wrong. 
You should never be inviting pressure on home soil.

Hopefully Russell Martin learns quickly from that.

[Harry_SFC]

8 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I’m not a fan of Stephens playing as a whole but he was not the worst centre-back today, THB was a lot worse.

McCarthy kept us in it. 

were not competing against the top ten, it’s the bottom ten we need to be careful of, yesterday was a huge opportunity and tactically it was all wrong. 
You should never be inviting pressure on home soil.

Hopefully Russell Martin learns quickly from that.

My problem is RM is constantly trying to be too clever for his own good. We had it last season with the inverted full backs and now it's the strikers hugging the touchline with no threat through the middle.

[Sheaf Saint]

5 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

And on Match of the Day, they highlighted how many passes it takes us to do one shot. And that needs to be sorted. Move the ball quicker, be more direct and have Archer or someone in the middle. For large tranches of the game there were two players standing wide on both sides with a gaping big hole through midfield and attack.

It was so obvious as well. Forest had done their homework on us and were pressing high up. Every time we tried to play out from the back they had their entire front 6 in our half trying to close off those passing lanes, and we simply played into their hands and inevitably gave away possession too easily. 

With them pushing up so high, it was crying out for us to change things up occasionally and play the ball forward more quickly to bypass that press, which would have pushed them back a bit, but the dogged adherence to the system just crippled us. 

It was naive from RM. I hope he learns from it.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

26 minutes ago, John B said:

I feel sorry for him trying to win in the PL with his current squad

I've heard some shit on here, but what the fuck? That squad could compete, if we had a manager who wasn't so tactically inflexiable and insisted on playing at a snails pace.

[Saint_clark]

54 minutes ago, John B said:

The is not much quality there not sure any would currently get into our top PL teams of the past

Of course not, but we're not competing for Europa league places like those teams were. 

[adrian lord]

It’s got to be said that we scraped promotion last season. Not as if we romped home. We have barely strengthened, have the same painfully obvious managerial flaws on show. The comments above about trying to be too clever are accurate.

[Saint_clark]

Just now, adrian lord said:

It’s got to be said that we scraped promotion last season. Not as if we romped home. We have barely strengthened, have the same painfully obvious managerial flaws on show. The comments above about trying to be too clever are accurate.

Promotion was the worst thing that could have happened for Martin after the season we had. It inflated his ego and gave him justification to arrogantly proclaim that the style of football was the right one all along. His comments about Stephen's and Smallbone show how naive he is to the level of player required to stay up in the Prem now. 

[adrian lord]

^ totally agree 

 

On another note: KWP has been head and shoulders our best player for aeons. Arguably the only genuine Prem standard player in the squad. He should be given the freedom of the City for his loyalty quite frankly.

Edited August 25 by adrian lord

[obelisk]

27 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

And on Match of the Day, they highlighted how many passes it takes us to do one shot. And that needs to be sorted. Move the ball quicker, be more direct and have Archer or someone in the middle. For large tranches of the game there were two players standing wide on both sides with a gaping big hole through midfield and attack.

Hopefully Fernandez and Les will make a difference in midfield. Afraid Aribo really isn't good enough to make the step up and for that matter, AA is proving he's a good championship player but not a lot more. 

Just seen those stats on MotD. 😐 Horrifying. Nothing there even for artistic interpretation.

Lucky to escape with just 0-1.

[beatlesaint]

24 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

My problem is RM is constantly trying to be too clever for his own good. We had it last season with the inverted full backs and now it's the strikers hugging the touchline with no threat through the middle.

The ironic thing about the strikers was last week against Newcastle Clinton Morrison (yeah I know, might be pinch of salt) said that Saints played too narrow, they didnt go out wide and open up the pitch to stretch Newcastle's ten men. Yesterday they stayed out wide..... Personally i think Armstrong is better out wide, cutting in. But to me he looked like Armstrong of 22/23 yesterday, not the one from last season which was always the fear.

Edited August 25 by beatlesaint

[Saint Billy]

A lot of RM slagging on here and I get it. I suppose on the other hand it's a new learning curve for him as well and hopefully he will adapt and drop the format that narrowly got us back into the prem. His system has already been easily exposed just after two games and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that this will continue if things don't change.

High press us from the start and we are screwed. Just change the system and surprise a few teams. Replace the weak links which there are a few and just maybe we can start getting some results.

[Highfield Saint]

Billow

kwp thb Jb Taylor 

Downes Les

Dibbling Fernandes 

Archer TP

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

7 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

That squad could compete, if we had a manager who wasn't so tactically inflexiable and insisted on playing at a snails pace.

This is it. We've got a squad that can compete. I can't believe RM insists on playing at a snail's pace but he needs to understand that there'll be many more clubs that will use a high press against us, so work out a way to get around it.

Didn't see him for long, but get the feeling Fernandes could turn out to be our best signing this year.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

This is it. We've got a squad that can compete. I can't believe RM insists on playing at a snail's pace but he needs to understand that there'll be many more clubs that will use a high press against us, so work out a way to get around it.

Didn't see him for long, but get the feeling Fernandes could turn out to be our best signing this year.

Irionically the fans have more recent  experience of what tends to work in the prem than Martin does. He has to learn quickly. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

3 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

This is it. We've got a squad that can compete. I can't believe RM insists on playing at a snail's pace but he needs to understand that there'll be many more clubs that will use a high press against us, so work out a way to get around it.

Didn't see him for long, but get the feeling Fernandes could turn out to be our best signing this year.

Yesterday the subs were re-active rather than pro-active. Was almost a sense of blind panic with the subs after Forest scored. 

[saintant]

11 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd love to stay up with Martin playing this way but I'd be just as happy playing shite football and keeping us up which would allow us to spend a lot more and increase our chances of survival in future. Sticking to this method of playing with less money to buy players compared to almost every other team in the league just means we can't really compete. 

This way is shite football from what I'm seeing.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Yesterday the subs were re-active rather than pro-active. Was almost a sense of blind panic with the subs after Forest scored. 

He made them at least ten minutes too late. It was obvious that the setup wasn’t working so why did Martin wait until they inevitably scored?

If those of us in the stands can see it why doesn’t he?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

If I could just have five minutes of Russell's time to tell him that all the passing around at the back just gives the opposition time to organise their defense. 

[Harry_SFC]

4 minutes ago, saintant said:

This way is shite football from what I'm seeing.

Watching MOTD and seeing West Ham, Fulham and obviously Forest yesterday all playing quick, slightly more direct football and getting a lot of joy from it. Then there's us passing the ball around struggling to get out of our own 18 yard box.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

He made them at least ten minutes too late. It was obvious that the setup wasn’t working so why did Martin wait until they inevitably scored?

If those of us in the stands can see it why doesn’t he?

Yep. 

I'm torn between whether it's arrogance, stupidity, or that it's as simple as he's doing his best but that his best just ain't good enough. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Yep. 

I'm torn between whether it's arrogance, stupidity, or that it's as simple as he's doing his best but that his best just ain't good enough. 

I think it's a mix of all three. 

[saintant]

8 hours ago, Kermitzasaint said:

I think with our current squad we could scrape survival but only with a decent coach. Today was amateur hour, a weak squad made to look worse because it was utilised terribly. I've said it before that a skilled coach makes the best out of what he has. Russell Martin lacks the skill to do that. 

Everything that RM has shown in his time with us shows me that he isn't capable of doing what's required to make us an effective EPL team. 

A better keeper and striker won't keep us up unless RM changes absolutely everything about how he coaches us. His entire philosophy only works at a lower level when his squad is better than everyone else's. 

RM is the problem. 

Agree with all of this.  RM's strategy of playing tippy tappy football starting from the back will not cut it in the Premier League because we cannot afford the quality players needed to make it work. It won't happen but we need to develop a mega fit, high energy pressing side with pace and power and go more direct. We need a team that wins the ball high up the pitch so that we can get straight at the heart of our opponents defence and create chances plus the ability to win the ball back quickly whenever we lose it. Trying to be a clone of Man City is not going to work and the quicker RM comes to terms with this the better - if he can't or won't then he'll be gone within months if not weeks. 

[Wiggles31]

Tippy tappy football can be successful and I see no reason why that style can’t keep us up. But no CF and the lack of players getting in the box won’t get you anywhere. We certainly need to mix things up a bit. RM needs to be adaptable. Like Liverpool away in the cup we played well and created chances. This team can’t have both Armstrong and Diaz. One needs to make way for a winger. 

[saintant]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Bijlow 

Suga THB bednarek kwp 

Downes lesley 

Fernandes 

Armstrong BBD 

Archer/new striker 

I'd also consider dropping Armstrong if we get much more without him, scoring or offering much. 

A tad harsh on Armstrong who was totally let down by RM's poor tactical set up yesterday - playing your two strikers wide on the flanks was a hopeless ploy that didn't work from the first minute. Judge Armstrong in a set up that gives him something to feed off which certainly wasn't the case against Forest.

[egg]

Just now, Wiggles31 said:

Tippy tappy football can be successful and I see no reason why that style can’t keep us up. But no CF and the lack of players getting in the box won’t get you anywhere. We certainly need to mix things up a bit. RM needs to be adaptable. Like Liverpool away in the cup we played well and created chances. This team can’t have both Armstrong and Diaz. One needs to make way for a winger. 

I can't agree with that. There has to be a threat to possession, otherwise it's literally a case of passing until we lose or give away the ball. 

Strachan called this style of football propaganda football. It really is. It's tedious to watch, it gives us no edge, and exposes is at this level. 

I'm with you on the lack of CF and players getting in the box. It's obvious to anyone bar RM that we need runners to stretch the oppo, to give us an outlet, and to give is some chance of actually scoring. 

I honestly can't recall the last time that we played such baffling tactics. 

[Oldandtired]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

Just watching the Brighton highlights from yesterday. The amount of bodies they seem to get in the opposition box compared to us is ridiculous.

Didn’t have to watch Brighton, for me ONE of the big differences yesterday was the speed of the Forest transition. No 5 yard sideways me to you to me nonsense, they knew where the opposition goal is and how to get there quickly.

Let’s face it, without that missed first half tap in and Macca’s saves they could easily have had five yesterday.

[beatlesaint]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Strachan called this style of football propaganda football. It really is. It's tedious to watch, it gives us no edge, and exposes is at this level. 

This is exactly what Russball is. The problem we have is some of those players are just not good enough to retain the ball at this level. Guy that sits near me kept saying first half "its a good job this is only Notts Forest playing like this" but in a few weeks it wont be, it'll be a top half team and we'll be in the mire big time. 

Unfotunately we fanny about with the ball for so long then lose it as soon as we try to venture a little bit forward, so we start again and so on. These tight little triangles they love to play work against an average Championship team but they didnt work so well yesterday because in this league you just dont get the time. Thats what RM has to suss out, and quickly.

[saintant]

49 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

A lot of RM slagging on here and I get it. I suppose on the other hand it's a new learning curve for him as well and hopefully he will adapt and drop the format that narrowly got us back into the prem. His system has already been easily exposed just after two games and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that this will continue if things don't change.

High press us from the start and we are screwed. Just change the system and surprise a few teams. Replace the weak links which there are a few and just maybe we can start getting some results.

RM has continually repeated the mantra that he will never change the system he believes in so it'll not happen until he is sacked - which may well be sooner rather than later and he'll have brought it on himself if and when it transpires.

[CB Fry]

26 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Watching MOTD and seeing West Ham, Fulham and obviously Forest yesterday all playing quick, slightly more direct football and getting a lot of joy from it. Then there's us passing the ball around struggling to get out of our own 18 yard box.

and Palace and Leicester, even though they lost there was attacking intent.

Our style of football is pretty much out of step with our competitors, and not in a good way.